TwelverShia.net Forum

Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #120 on: January 16, 2019, 08:12:00 AM »
I keep telling thee.......

1) NO
2)NO
3)NO
4)YES

He was a normal leader/imam without the added divinity part you keep throwing in without evidence.

If he was a normal leader then wasn't he a leader when he was a Prophet?

:And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."


And Abraham was asking for that same leadership that you are stuck with for his offsprings "Abraham] said, "And of my descendants" and how did Allah reply, "Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

So if Imam means just and only leadership then why the condition from Allah? Normal leadership doesn't have conditions attached to them, does it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 08:19:26 AM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #121 on: January 16, 2019, 09:49:59 AM »
We've all expressed our opinion and had our share of the argument. Lets take a look at this very carefully, in detail and in depth.

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

First point, Abraham was tried by his Lord. He was put through a test, a trial. What was the test, the trial? With commands. Which commands or what kind? Allah knows better and best. So what was the result of this test,  this trial? Abraham fulfilled those commands. He didn't fall short. In simple words, he passed he succeeded. What happened next? Allah said to Abraham "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people".

Now this is where the issue is. Allah said to Abraham that I will make you an Imam of the people. For argument reasons lets say that this was just and only leadership. Allah promised Abraham that he will make him a leader of the people. The whole episode was just ordinary and there was nothing exciting or important here because Abraham was already a Messenger and a Prophet to begin with. So this wasn't something higher or more important.

Lets look at some facts concerning leadership and being a leader. Leaders can be good or bad or anywhere in between. One can classify and categorise leaders in such a way that they can get things wrong, make errors and mistakes or they can be right doers or wrongdoers. All this is attached and connected to just leadership and being a leader.

Now lets move forward on those verses. What did Abraham say to Allah after Allah said "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people". Abraham replied by putting a request forward, "And of my descendants?" And how did Allah take this request? By responding "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers". Notice Allah's reply to Abraham's request "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers". See the condition. This condition proves that this wasn't just and only leadership. This condition proves it was DIVINE LEADERSHIP.

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #122 on: January 16, 2019, 11:15:01 AM »
We've all expressed our opinion and had our share of the argument. Lets take a look at this very carefully, in detail and in depth.

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

First point, Abraham was tried by his Lord. He was put through a test, a trial. What was the test, the trial? With commands. Which commands or what kind? Allah knows better and best. So what was the result of this test,  this trial? Abraham fulfilled those commands. He didn't fall short. In simple words, he passed he succeeded. What happened next? Allah said to Abraham "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people".

Now this is where the issue is. Allah said to Abraham that I will make you an Imam of the people. For argument reasons lets say that this was just and only leadership. Allah promised Abraham that he will make him a leader of the people. The whole episode was just ordinary and there was nothing exciting or important here because Abraham was already a Messenger and a Prophet to begin with. So this wasn't something higher or more important.

Lets look at some facts concerning leadership and being a leader. Leaders can be good or bad or anywhere in between. One can classify and categorise leaders in such a way that they can get things wrong, make errors and mistakes or they can be right doers or wrongdoers. All this is attached and connected to just leadership and being a leader.

Now lets move forward on those verses. What did Abraham say to Allah after Allah said "Indeed, I will make you an Imam for the people". Abraham replied by putting a request forward, "And of my descendants?" And how did Allah take this request? By responding "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers". Notice Allah's reply to Abraham's request "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers". See the condition. This condition proves that this wasn't just and only leadership. This condition proves it was DIVINE LEADERSHIP.

You can look as much as you can and I will help you along the way, I am sure your not a kindergarten kid although you post like it sometimes.

Ibrahim as passed trials and tests He passed as a great prophet and now prophethood had finished no more revelations no new commands, Allah swt made Him as a great leader/imam whom most of the world consider as a great leader, no divine attachments, just a normal imam AS THE QURAN CLEARLY STATES!!!

You are coming with shiite influenced divine Imamate ideas and trying very hard to add it to the verse but you keep failing MISERABLY hence you keep regurgitating the same argument.

It’s getting boring now.

Look at your desperation man

“And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

It was a question.....”and of my offspring?” He was asking about something He Ibrahim as didn’t know about, a genuine honest question with no added extras to think it’s about divine Imamate, like you do with your Shiite mindset.

Allah swt replied and blessed His off spring with leadership and there was plenty of them and they lived ruled and history has been written about them aplenty, your crying about words and meanings and what ifs and conditions words you add but cannot provide an example of a real living  divine imam, it’s all in your head and you still cannot explain such an idea for there is no proof of it, our endless convo says it all, just as much you may think divine Imamate is real I answer you on your mistakes and contradictions for you to repeat the same again and again.

Stop adding in bits whom ibn saba championed.

rayanic

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #123 on: January 19, 2019, 07:18:12 AM »
   اسم در نزد اهل لغت و اهل معرفت یعنی چی؟
•   اسم ذات احتیاج به اسم دیگر دارد.
•   "الله" یعنی خود اون ذات. نه لفظی که دلالت بر اون ذات می‌کند

pray time secret:
https://www.azangoo.ir/blogs/وبلاگ/292-اسرار-اذان-و-اقامه-استاد-سعادت-فر-قسمت-چهارم-از-هفتاد-دو.html

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #124 on: January 19, 2019, 05:13:51 PM »
In post #80 Muslim 720 says,

"However, as I always do, I am willing to concede that it "proves" Imamah.  Then you have no choice but to acknowledge that Prophethood is necessary for one to attain Imamah"

Notice the words again, "However, as I always do, I am willing to concede that it "proves" Imamah"

It proves Imamah. But the discussion now is 'what type of Imamah'. This is where you're taking the discussion now.

Mythbuster says in post #122,

"Ibrahim as passed trials and tests He passed as a great prophet and now prophethood had finished no more revelations no new commands"

No my dear, he didn't pass as a great prophet. He was already a Prophet even before he was tried by his Lord. Here he was tried by his Lord while he was already a prophet. So the trial has got nothing to do with Prophet hood but something else and different.

And when he succeeded only then Allah decided to make him an Imam of the people. Get it, IMAM not a leader which he already was to begin with. Is being a leader separate and different than being a Prophet? No it isn't. So you're mitigating matters by giving your own meaning and version to Imamah and becoming an Imam. You're making something serious and important look simple and small.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:22:43 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2019, 06:01:13 PM »
Mythbuster further says,

"Allah swt replied and blessed His off spring with leadership and there was plenty of them and they lived ruled and history has been written about them aplenty"

No my dear, that is not true. You're mixing things up and you're trying to make a mixture. Abraham asked "And of my descendants/offsprings" and Allah replied "my covenant is not for the wrongdoers" So there is a condition in place.

So Allah certainly didn't bless all of them with this covenant. And not all of them ruled as right doers . The wrongdoers were excluded and you failed to mention this. This condition means something. You can't brush it aside.

"but cannot provide an example of a real living  divine imam"

Muhammad Al Mahdi is the example of a real living divine Imam.

"It was a question.....”and of my offspring?” He was asking about something He Ibrahim as didn’t know about, a genuine honest question with no added extras to think it’s about divine Imamate, like you do with your Shiite mindset"

If it was just a simple and ordinary question then why didn't Allah give a simple and straightforward answer by saying "yes there will be leaders from your offsprings"?

Why did Allah say, "He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”

Why did Allah add the extra?


“And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 06:15:59 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #126 on: January 19, 2019, 06:18:46 PM »
"a genuine honest question with no added extras"

But a genuine honest answer in return with added extra.

"He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”

There you have the added extra.

"You are coming with shiite influenced divine Imamate ideas"

Nope. I'm just telling you what exactly is in the Qur'an. You keep denying it without any logical reason.

"and trying very hard to add it to the verse but you keep failing MISERABLY"

I'm not adding anything to it. Allah added by saying "my covenant does not include the unjust”

"hence you keep regurgitating the same argument"

Because you keep coming back with the confrontational stance.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 06:24:36 PM by iceman »

Hani

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #127 on: January 20, 2019, 12:22:22 AM »
If you read the entire story of the covenant between God and Ibrahim (as) in the bible, you realize the covenant is "circumcision". Now to conclude this, the word "oppressors" in the verse talks about people of an evil nature, as long as the person is descent then he is not from among the "oppressors".
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #128 on: January 20, 2019, 02:48:45 AM »

No my dear, he didn't pass as a great prophet. He was already a Prophet even before he was tried by his Lord. Here he was tried by his Lord while he was already a prophet. So the trial has got nothing to do with Prophet hood but something else and different.

And when he succeeded only then Allah decided to make him an Imam of the people. Get it, IMAM not a leader which he already was to begin with. Is being a leader separate and different than being a Prophet? No it isn't. So you're mitigating matters by giving your own meaning and version to Imamah and becoming an Imam. You're making something serious and important look simple and small.

I say He passed in His prophethood

You say He was already a prophet before He was tried by His Lord

What’s the difference?

The trial has definitely got nothing to do with divine Imamate neither, as prophethood had finished and now Allah swt made Him a leader/imam not divine for mankind, the covenant wasn’t for divine leadership, that’s you adding in your interpretation.
Imamah of divine nature portrayed by you and your kind is nothing but an addition as can be seen how you twist the word imam to suit your interpretation there by mitigating matters by giving your own version of imamah and becoming an imam. You’re creating something when there is nothing there at all.

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #129 on: January 20, 2019, 10:22:49 AM »
Mythbuster further says,

"Allah swt replied and blessed His off spring with leadership and there was plenty of them and they lived ruled and history has been written about them aplenty"

No my dear, that is not true. You're mixing things up and you're trying to make a mixture. Abraham asked "And of my descendants/offsprings" and Allah replied "my covenant is not for the wrongdoers" So there is a condition in place.

Mixing what? You are the one calling a covenant a condition AGAIN adding your own interpretation.
Nothing new here you are a master of mixing divine with normal imams.👍
So Allah certainly didn't bless all of them with this covenant. And not all of them ruled as right doers . The wrongdoers were excluded and you failed to mention this. This condition means something. You can't brush it aside.

What? The covenant excludes wrongdoers, no wrongdoers will rule and they never did as I keep saying look into history and read and ponder over what bro hani posted .......THINK!!! You are CONDITIONED since childhood to twist and create  something out of nothing with added words and meanings like you do here and it’s a miserable failure


Muhammad Al Mahdi is the example of a real living divine Imam.

I do wonder IF you understand English?
Could....you....please.....provide.....us......proof.....of......the.....real.....living.....divine.....I....M.....A....M.
Don’t give me a metaphor but a real breathing living imam.

My imam is at my local masjid living breathing and loves eating.😜

Where’s yours?😉


If it was just a simple and ordinary question then why didn't Allah give a simple and straightforward answer by saying "yes there will be leaders from your offsprings"?

Why did Allah say, "He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”

Why did Allah add the extra?


“And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (Ibrahim) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”. (2:124)

Yes a question and NOT a condition.

What of my offspring? Is that a condition or a question?

Allah swt replies not the wrong doers from your offspring.

A question asked is answered by Allah swt.........why are you ADDING conditions in a question?

You need to go back to school and learn the English language and understand it better honestly you are making a mockery of your kind and yourself.

There is no EXTRA here unless you start creating one like you do yourself with conditions.


Just like you add on divine to imams.
😉

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2019, 10:41:40 AM »
"a genuine honest question with no added extras"

But a genuine honest answer in return with added extra.

"He said, my covenant does not include the unjust”

There you have the added extra
Quote

Yes as answered in previous post, you are desperately trying your hardest but your going in circles.

No condition but an answer and nothing extra added unless you mix in ideas yourself, as can be seen.

Quote from: iceman link=topic=2287.msg24864#msg24864 date=[quote

Nope. I'm just telling you what exactly is in the Qur'an. You keep denying without any logical reason.

Lol your LOGICAL reasoning creates an IDEA of a divine imam that you simply add it to verses of Quran to twist it to your understanding, the threads and post are full of your self made interpretations of verses from the Quran without you providing any REAL or CLEAR evidence from Quran saying imams are divine, infact you haven’t a real or living divine imam and never did.

Divine Imamate a miserable failure that never existed and never implemented since the idea was created by Saba.👍


Because you keep coming back with the confrontational stance.

I keep coming back with haqq which to you converts to a confrontational stance.😉👍

You are good at converting words and facts to your desires and whims.😜

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2019, 06:31:29 PM »
If you read the entire story of the covenant between God and Ibrahim (as) in the bible, you realize the covenant is "circumcision". Now to conclude this, the word "oppressors" in the verse talks about people of an evil nature, as long as the person is descent then he is not from among the "oppressors".

I don't know what you're on about here but the verses in the Qur'an and the example of Imamah is clear how it was given to Abraham and the condition if it will be given to any of the descendants. You can twist and turn this as much as you like but the matter is clear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #132 on: January 20, 2019, 07:45:09 PM »
I don't know what you're on about here but the verses in the Qur'an and the example of Imamah is clear how it was given to Abraham and the condition if it will be given to any of the descendants. You can twist and turn this as much as you like but the matter is clear.

Obviously you don’t because you spew that much nonsense that you don’t even understand simple things you end up twisting and turning to make yourself see divine additions where there simply is none. The matter is clear you lack aql when it comes to verses of Quran.😜

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #133 on: January 20, 2019, 08:50:05 PM »
Obviously you don’t because you spew that much nonsense that you don’t even understand simple things you end up twisting and turning to make yourself see divine additions where there simply is none. The matter is clear you lack aql when it comes to verses of Quran.😜

No I don't. It's your constant denial and confrontational stance 😊

Hani

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #134 on: January 21, 2019, 01:25:57 AM »
I don't know what you're on about here but the verses in the Qur'an and the example of Imamah is clear how it was given to Abraham and the condition if it will be given to any of the descendants. You can twist and turn this as much as you like but the matter is clear.

Yes, only the righteous from his descendants will be an example for the people to follow (i.e Imams), those who follow his tradition and do circumcision.

Here it is from Genesis 17

{I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.}

Your Shia interpretation is way off buddy.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #135 on: January 21, 2019, 09:21:09 PM »
Yes, only the righteous from his descendants will be an example for the people to follow (i.e Imams), those who follow his tradition and do circumcision.

Here it is from Genesis 17

{I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.}

Your Shia interpretation is way off buddy.

So what was the covenant here? Was it, "to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" or was it "The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

But in the Qur'an Allah mentions of Abraham being tried by his Lord and then Allah decided to make him an Imam of the people. You're putting together two different things here. Doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to make here?

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2019, 09:37:47 PM »
That got implemented in the real world.........you keep crying over spilt milk.

Divine imamrmate NEVER even breathed or saw the light of day.

You are butt hurt and will find ANYTHING negative about saqifa you will even LIE to defend fake divine Imamate.

Oh iceman😊

"you keep crying over spilt milk"

I absolutely agree, yes it was spilt milk (Saqifa). If you still want to drink or use it (accept it) then that's down to you. We on the other hand mop it up. That's the difference. 😊

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2019, 10:12:16 AM »
"you keep crying over spilt milk"

I absolutely agree, yes it was spilt milk (Saqifa). If you still want to drink or use it (accept it) then that's down to you. We on the other hand mop it up. That's the difference. 😊

Lol you mopped it up that much that the last one ran into hiding.😂😂😂

👍

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2019, 07:05:57 PM »
Lol you mopped it up that much that the last one ran into hiding.😂😂😂

👍

The only difference is, you believe he ran into hiding and we believe he was ordered into occultation. That's the difference. But we do agree on one thing be it you or us, that a day will come where the world will be so full of cruelty, injustice, tyranny and corruption that mankind along with you and your ideology of Caliphate will cry out, infact scream out for help from Allah. Because nothing has gone right and there are no signs of going right.

Then the same individual you call in hiding will appear. The only difference is we along with some Sunnis believe he is in occultation and you believe he will be born. But it doesn't matter which way you look at it wasn't our Imams but your Caliphs who messed things up by getting them wrong. Be it Caliphs of which era.

Hadrami

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #139 on: January 29, 2019, 03:31:13 AM »
I read the article and did not find anything which would make me believe that concept of Shi'i Imamat is false (or doomed)
Anyone who is sincere dont need an article to see the obvious that the concept of shia imamah was doomed almost 1200 yr ago when the last imam was nowhere to be found. The concept of ghayba doomed the concept of imamah.

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
2172 Views
Last post May 03, 2015, 11:26:30 PM
by Optimus Prime
9 Replies
1842 Views
Last post October 02, 2017, 08:04:09 PM
by Rationalist
3 Replies
1305 Views
Last post December 12, 2017, 09:14:30 AM
by MuslimAnswers
6 Replies
2349 Views
Last post February 14, 2018, 05:06:27 PM
by iceman