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Reason of occultation and common sence.

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Abu Rumaysah

Reason of occultation and common sence.
« on: February 20, 2020, 12:32:32 PM »
as salam alaykum.

It is well known that Twelvers shias are waiting for their 12-th Imam. In accordance to their faith, he was born, and then went to the occultation.
I am not going to mention, that this figure is not a first person who allegedly went into occultation.

What do we have? Ruler, Imam, which allegedly went to occultation more than 1000 years ago.

What is the reason for this?

Fear. That one of the main, if not the only one “sensible” reason that been given by shias.
As usual, they attributed this to imams of Ahlalbayt.
Muhammad ibn Yakub al-Kulayni narrated in his “al-Kafi” (H 892, Ch. 80, h 5)
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Khashshab from ‘Abdallah ibn Musa from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurarah who has said the following. "The young boy will disappear from the public sight before his rise (with divine power)" The narrator has said, "I then asked, "Why (would that has to take place)?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He will be afraid." He pointed out with his hand to his midsection. Then he said, "O Zurara, "He is the one whose reappearance is expected. He is the one whose coming to this world through birth will be doubted. Certain people will say, "his father died without leaving any son behind." Certain others will say, "Just before the dead of his father his mother conceived him." Still others will say, "He was born two years before the death of his father." He is the one whose reappearance is expected. The fact is that Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, loves to try and test the Shi‘a (his followers). It in such a condition that people of falsehood will raise doubts, O Zurara)." (till the end of hadith)

And another hadith, same book (H 896, Ch. 80, h 9):
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ja'far ibn Muhammad from al-Hassan ibn Mu‘awiya from ‘Abdallah ibn Jabala from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurara who has said the following. "I heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say as herein below. "The person who will rise to Divine power on earth will disappear from the public sight before he will do so." I then asked, "Why, will happen so?" He said, "He will be afraid." He then pointed to his midsection meaning thereby being murdered."

Just think about this for a moment. Ruler, guider, God appointed spiritual Imam, leaves his nation without any guidance, because he afraid of being murdered.

When your “God appointed” Imam is not brave enough to face his enemies, you definitely have no rights to mock any companions that fled from any battle.
At least they managed to come to the battlefield. Your Imam has no courage even to show himself.

But my main point here is other interesting nuance. When someone has to lie on the go, and come up with new dodges, he normally does not have time to make sure that one of his lies does not contradict another.

Problem here is that shias already attributed to their Imams knowledge of death and time of it.

Kulayni in his book al-Kafi got separate chapter (#47) with such heading:

The Imams (a.s.) know when they will die and they die voluntarily/

He narrated there (H 670, Ch. 47, h 1)
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Salamah ibn-al-Khattab from ) Sulayman ibn Sama‘a and ‘Abdallah ibn Muhammad from ‘Abdallah ibn al-Qasim al-Batal from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "Whoever of the Imams that would not know what would happen to him and to what events he would proceed such a person is not a possessor of Divine authority over His creature."

Again in the same chapter (H 672, Ch. 47, h 3)
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Faddal from abu Jamilah from ‘Abdallah ibn abu Ja‘far who has said that my brother narrated
from Ja‘far (abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) from his father that he went to Ali ibn al-Husayn (a.s.) on the night in which he passed away and offered him a drink requesting,
 "Father, please drink it." He said, "Son, this is the night in which I will pass away and during such night the Messenger of Allah also
passed away."

And in another one (H 673, Ch. 47, h 4)
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Hamid
from al-Hassan ibn al-Jahm who has said that he said to al-Rida (a.s.) the following. "Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) knew his assassin, the night in of being murdered and the spot whereat who be murdered. It is his words on hearing the ducks at the house, "These are the quacks that will be followed by lamentations." Also the words of ’Umm Kulthum (his daughter). "Would that you pray inside the house and send someone else to lead the prayer in the Mosque." He refused to do so and at that night he went many times out of the house unarmed. He knew that ibn Muljim, may he be condemned will murder him with a sword. He must not have exposed himself to it" The Imam (a.s.) said, "It is true but it was chosen that night wherein the measure and the determination of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High would come to pass."

Let us leave aside fact that this chapter and meaning would contradict Quran.
Allah Almighty says in the Quran that everyone’s time of death is decided by Allah and Allah alone:
“And no soul can die except by Allah’s leave- a [divine] decree with a fixed term!” (The Noble Quran, 3:145)

Shias do believe in lots of things that contradicts our Holy Book.

But there is very logical question, that even shia that managed to participate in 20 matams, should give to himself.

a)   12-th Imam went to occulation, because he was afraid that he would be killed.
b)   All imams knows the time of their death, and they would die only with their own permission.

(have no access to wordpress, so Huseyn, if you can just post this at blog)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 12:33:49 PM by Abu Rumaysah »

Rationalist

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 06:59:16 AM »
According to  a 12er shia website here are the reasons:
1) He unlike the previous 11 Imams did not want to give Bayah to the rulers
2) To test the 12ers
3) Fear of his Death
4) The hypocrisy of the 12ers





Reasons for the Occultation of Imam Mahdi (A.S.)
 
1. Free from Allegiance of Every Tyrant
Amirul Momineen Alt (A.S.) said,
"Certainly', when the Qaem from among us shall arise, he will not have the allegience of any one upon his neck. It is for this reason that his birth is secret and his person is in Ghaibat."
(Kamaaluddin Vol.1. Pg.303)
It must be mentioned that all of our Imams had to pledge allegience to every tyrant ruler except for a short period during the rule of Umar ibne Abdul Aziz. This was because, on the face of it, it would seem that they are not against the ruler, In this way they could protect Islam. In the absence of popular support, the Imams were left alone and thus they entered into an understanding with the rulers. Thus even Imam Husain (A.S.) for a particular period did not find it necessary to revolt against the regime of Muawiya.
In this regard Hazrat Mahdi (A.S.) says:
"Verily each of my ancestors had the oath of allegience, upon their necks, of their contemporary tyrant rulers. But I will reappear at such a time that I will not have any tyrant's allegience upon my neck."
(Ghaibat Tusi Pg.292, Kamaaluddin VoL2. Pg.485)
2. Test Of The People
Imam al Kazim (A.S.) said,
"My son ! when the fifth descendant of the seventh of the Imams is not visible to you ! It is when Allah will test your belief. Ghaibat is inevitable for the Master of this affair. Till the time when the religion is completely transformed, and only a few people will have belief in him. My son ! That Ghaibat, It is a
trial through which Allah, the Almighty tests His servants."
(Ghaibat-e-Toosi Pg.166 & 337. Al Kafi vol.1 Pg.336. Kamaaluddin vol.2 Pg.359 and 360. Kifayatul Asar Pg.264-265)
3. Fear of the Enemy
Imam Musa al-Kazim (A.S.) said,
"The Qaem is the one who will purify the earth from the enemies of Allah, the High and the Mighty. And he will fill the earth will justice and equity just as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He is the fifth of my descendants. He will go into occultation due to the fear of his own (life)."
(Kamaaluddin vol.2 Pg.361. Kifayatul Asar Pg.265-266)
According to common sense it is necessary for man not to throw away his precious life without a legitimate aim. Thus, the prophets (A.S.) and the Imams (A.S.) have taught the people that it is their duty to protect their life under every circumstance and should never put their life in danger. Therefore it is the duty of the last of these exalted personalities to protect himself till the time of his reappearance when he will establish the new world order.
4. Weakness and Lack of Co-operation of the People.
Imam Mahdi (A.S.) said.
"If our shias; may Allah help them in His obedience; would have fulfilled their covenant with united hearts then there would have. been no delay in our meeting, and they would have been blessed with our visitation at the earliest, along with the recognition of truth and confirmation of our rights."
(Al Ihtejaj vol.2 Pg.602)
http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?print=4589

Also here are some more ahadith from Bihar al Anwar which state the same reasons.

Ghaibat Nomani:
It is narrated from Ahmad bin Idris from Ibne Qutaibahfrom Ibne Shazan from Ahmad bin Abi Nasr Bazanti that he said: Imam Musa Kazim(a.s.) said:
“By Allah, that to which you look forward to, will not come about exceptafter you are distinguished and you are subjected to a test till except for a few,none of you Shia will remain… then he recited the following verses:
“What! do you think that you will be left alone while Allah has not yet known those of you who have struggled hard and have not taken anyone asan adherent besides Allah and His Apostle and the believers…” (SurahTaubah 9:16)


Shaykh Saduq  has narrated from his father from Himyari from his chains of narrators directly from Ali bin Yaqtin that he said:

I asked Imam Musa Kazim (a.s.): “How come the predictions about youare never fulfilled whereas all the predictions about your opponents are fulfilled?”He said: “The predictions about our enemies, since they are true they arefulfilled. And with regard to us it is not predictions; on the contrary they are your aspirations and hopes. Thus their result is obvious.”     

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2020, 02:07:01 AM »
as salam alaykum.

It is well known that Twelvers shias are waiting for their 12-th Imam. In accordance to their faith, he was born, and then went to the occultation.
I am not going to mention, that this figure is not a first person who allegedly went into occultation.

What do we have? Ruler, Imam, which allegedly went to occultation more than 1000 years ago.

What is the reason for this?

Fear. That one of the main, if not the only one “sensible” reason that been given by shias.
As usual, they attributed this to imams of Ahlalbayt.
Muhammad ibn Yakub al-Kulayni narrated in his “al-Kafi” (H 892, Ch. 80, h 5)
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Khashshab from ‘Abdallah ibn Musa from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurarah who has said the following. "The young boy will disappear from the public sight before his rise (with divine power)" The narrator has said, "I then asked, "Why (would that has to take place)?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He will be afraid." He pointed out with his hand to his midsection. Then he said, "O Zurara, "He is the one whose reappearance is expected. He is the one whose coming to this world through birth will be doubted. Certain people will say, "his father died without leaving any son behind." Certain others will say, "Just before the dead of his father his mother conceived him." Still others will say, "He was born two years before the death of his father." He is the one whose reappearance is expected. The fact is that Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, loves to try and test the Shi‘a (his followers). It in such a condition that people of falsehood will raise doubts, O Zurara)." (till the end of hadith)

And another hadith, same book (H 896, Ch. 80, h 9):
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ja'far ibn Muhammad from al-Hassan ibn Mu‘awiya from ‘Abdallah ibn Jabala from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurara who has said the following. "I heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say as herein below. "The person who will rise to Divine power on earth will disappear from the public sight before he will do so." I then asked, "Why, will happen so?" He said, "He will be afraid." He then pointed to his midsection meaning thereby being murdered."

Just think about this for a moment. Ruler, guider, God appointed spiritual Imam, leaves his nation without any guidance, because he afraid of being murdered.

When your “God appointed” Imam is not brave enough to face his enemies, you definitely have no rights to mock any companions that fled from any battle.
At least they managed to come to the battlefield. Your Imam has no courage even to show himself.

But my main point here is other interesting nuance. When someone has to lie on the go, and come up with new dodges, he normally does not have time to make sure that one of his lies does not contradict another.

Problem here is that shias already attributed to their Imams knowledge of death and time of it.

Kulayni in his book al-Kafi got separate chapter (#47) with such heading:

The Imams (a.s.) know when they will die and they die voluntarily/

He narrated there (H 670, Ch. 47, h 1)
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Salamah ibn-al-Khattab from ) Sulayman ibn Sama‘a and ‘Abdallah ibn Muhammad from ‘Abdallah ibn al-Qasim al-Batal from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "Whoever of the Imams that would not know what would happen to him and to what events he would proceed such a person is not a possessor of Divine authority over His creature."

Again in the same chapter (H 672, Ch. 47, h 3)
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Faddal from abu Jamilah from ‘Abdallah ibn abu Ja‘far who has said that my brother narrated
from Ja‘far (abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) from his father that he went to Ali ibn al-Husayn (a.s.) on the night in which he passed away and offered him a drink requesting,
 "Father, please drink it." He said, "Son, this is the night in which I will pass away and during such night the Messenger of Allah also
passed away."

And in another one (H 673, Ch. 47, h 4)
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Hamid
from al-Hassan ibn al-Jahm who has said that he said to al-Rida (a.s.) the following. "Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) knew his assassin, the night in of being murdered and the spot whereat who be murdered. It is his words on hearing the ducks at the house, "These are the quacks that will be followed by lamentations." Also the words of ’Umm Kulthum (his daughter). "Would that you pray inside the house and send someone else to lead the prayer in the Mosque." He refused to do so and at that night he went many times out of the house unarmed. He knew that ibn Muljim, may he be condemned will murder him with a sword. He must not have exposed himself to it" The Imam (a.s.) said, "It is true but it was chosen that night wherein the measure and the determination of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High would come to pass."

Let us leave aside fact that this chapter and meaning would contradict Quran.
Allah Almighty says in the Quran that everyone’s time of death is decided by Allah and Allah alone:
“And no soul can die except by Allah’s leave- a [divine] decree with a fixed term!” (The Noble Quran, 3:145)

Shias do believe in lots of things that contradicts our Holy Book.

But there is very logical question, that even shia that managed to participate in 20 matams, should give to himself.

a)   12-th Imam went to occulation, because he was afraid that he would be killed.
b)   All imams knows the time of their death, and they would die only with their own permission.

(have no access to wordpress, so Huseyn, if you can just post this at blog)

It is well known that Twelvers shias are waiting for their 12-th Imam. In accordance to their faith, he was born, and then went to the occultation"

That's just not well known, this is also well known and a firm belief of the Muslims that the world will be full of tyranny and injustice and a saviour will come, be it will be born or appear to free the world from tyranny and injustice.


"I am not going to mention, that this figure is not a first person who allegedly went into occultation"

Why aren't you going to mention? It's relevant and equally important. Well one thing is settled then, there is such thing as occultation and there have been people going or sent into occultation. And I wonder what for and what logic and reason would be behind that.

"What do we have? Ruler, Imam, which allegedly went to occultation more than 1000 years ago.

What is the reason for this?"

You do accept and believe that others have gone into occultation. What was the reason for that? It's relevant and important. If we understand and agree to that by finding common ground then one can work on this.

"Just think about this for a moment. Ruler, guider, God appointed spiritual Imam, leaves his nation without any guidance, because he afraid of being murdered"

Yes I've thought about this and dealt with it many times over. "God appointed spiritual Imam" Yes. "Leaves his nation without any guidance" Well there were eleven others before him, were they accepted, obeyed and followed? Nope. Allah has left nations in the past because of their continuous neglect and rejection of spiritual guidance. I'll give you examples.

The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper so he may write something for you so you don't go astray after him. Remember. Did people bother? Nope. What did they say and believe in? "We have the book of Allah with us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us". This is also rejection of spiritual guidance and by the man himself. "Because he is afraid of being murdered" he was the last and final of the 12 Imams, spiritual guides and rulers chosen by Allah.

So protecting himself is to protect and keep Imamah alive. What ever his role and duty is that's what he's going to do. The other 11 did their bit he's doing his by the command of Allah and how Allah wants him to do it. We've had 124,000 Messengers, were they all the same answer equal. They all did their job exactly and how they were told to and based on the circumstances, situations and conditions they were facing.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 02:09:13 AM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2020, 02:44:21 AM »
as salam alaykum.

It is well known that Twelvers shias are waiting for their 12-th Imam. In accordance to their faith, he was born, and then went to the occultation.
I am not going to mention, that this figure is not a first person who allegedly went into occultation.

What do we have? Ruler, Imam, which allegedly went to occultation more than 1000 years ago.

What is the reason for this?

Fear. That one of the main, if not the only one “sensible” reason that been given by shias.
As usual, they attributed this to imams of Ahlalbayt.
Muhammad ibn Yakub al-Kulayni narrated in his “al-Kafi” (H 892, Ch. 80, h 5)
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from al-Hassan ibn Musa al-Khashshab from ‘Abdallah ibn Musa from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurarah who has said the following. "The young boy will disappear from the public sight before his rise (with divine power)" The narrator has said, "I then asked, "Why (would that has to take place)?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He will be afraid." He pointed out with his hand to his midsection. Then he said, "O Zurara, "He is the one whose reappearance is expected. He is the one whose coming to this world through birth will be doubted. Certain people will say, "his father died without leaving any son behind." Certain others will say, "Just before the dead of his father his mother conceived him." Still others will say, "He was born two years before the death of his father." He is the one whose reappearance is expected. The fact is that Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, loves to try and test the Shi‘a (his followers). It in such a condition that people of falsehood will raise doubts, O Zurara)." (till the end of hadith)

And another hadith, same book (H 896, Ch. 80, h 9):
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ja'far ibn Muhammad from al-Hassan ibn Mu‘awiya from ‘Abdallah ibn Jabala from ‘Abdallah ibn Bukayr from Zurara who has said the following. "I heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say as herein below. "The person who will rise to Divine power on earth will disappear from the public sight before he will do so." I then asked, "Why, will happen so?" He said, "He will be afraid." He then pointed to his midsection meaning thereby being murdered."

Just think about this for a moment. Ruler, guider, God appointed spiritual Imam, leaves his nation without any guidance, because he afraid of being murdered.

When your “God appointed” Imam is not brave enough to face his enemies, you definitely have no rights to mock any companions that fled from any battle.
At least they managed to come to the battlefield. Your Imam has no courage even to show himself.

But my main point here is other interesting nuance. When someone has to lie on the go, and come up with new dodges, he normally does not have time to make sure that one of his lies does not contradict another.

Problem here is that shias already attributed to their Imams knowledge of death and time of it.

Kulayni in his book al-Kafi got separate chapter (#47) with such heading:

The Imams (a.s.) know when they will die and they die voluntarily/

He narrated there (H 670, Ch. 47, h 1)
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Salamah ibn-al-Khattab from ) Sulayman ibn Sama‘a and ‘Abdallah ibn Muhammad from ‘Abdallah ibn al-Qasim al-Batal from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "Whoever of the Imams that would not know what would happen to him and to what events he would proceed such a person is not a possessor of Divine authority over His creature."

Again in the same chapter (H 672, Ch. 47, h 3)
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Faddal from abu Jamilah from ‘Abdallah ibn abu Ja‘far who has said that my brother narrated
from Ja‘far (abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) from his father that he went to Ali ibn al-Husayn (a.s.) on the night in which he passed away and offered him a drink requesting,
 "Father, please drink it." He said, "Son, this is the night in which I will pass away and during such night the Messenger of Allah also
passed away."

And in another one (H 673, Ch. 47, h 4)
Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Hamid
from al-Hassan ibn al-Jahm who has said that he said to al-Rida (a.s.) the following. "Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) knew his assassin, the night in of being murdered and the spot whereat who be murdered. It is his words on hearing the ducks at the house, "These are the quacks that will be followed by lamentations." Also the words of ’Umm Kulthum (his daughter). "Would that you pray inside the house and send someone else to lead the prayer in the Mosque." He refused to do so and at that night he went many times out of the house unarmed. He knew that ibn Muljim, may he be condemned will murder him with a sword. He must not have exposed himself to it" The Imam (a.s.) said, "It is true but it was chosen that night wherein the measure and the determination of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High would come to pass."

Let us leave aside fact that this chapter and meaning would contradict Quran.
Allah Almighty says in the Quran that everyone’s time of death is decided by Allah and Allah alone:
“And no soul can die except by Allah’s leave- a [divine] decree with a fixed term!” (The Noble Quran, 3:145)

Shias do believe in lots of things that contradicts our Holy Book.

But there is very logical question, that even shia that managed to participate in 20 matams, should give to himself.

a)   12-th Imam went to occulation, because he was afraid that he would be killed.
b)   All imams knows the time of their death, and they would die only with their own permission.

(have no access to wordpress, so Huseyn, if you can just post this at blog)

"When your “God appointed” Imam is not brave enough to face his enemies, you definitely have no rights to mock any companions that fled from any battle.
At least they managed to come to the battlefield. Your Imam has no courage even to show himself"

So this tells us what the purpose and point of your post is. You're not here to discuss rationally and generally. It's more personal and specific. Your world evolves around a handful of companions and your conversations, discussions basically everything evolves and circles around that. The God pointed Imam is more than brave enough. But you're not thinking straight or rationally. Do you know what bravery is to begin with? To fulfill you're duty and do your job the way you're asked and advised.

He was the last and final Imam he wasn't in the battlefield facing the enemy. The companions you mention and speak about were in the battlefield facing the enemy where they fled to save their lives abandoning the Prophet s.a.w and leaving him stranded. The two situations are totally separate and different along with the circumstances and conditions. There is no comparison here.

Nobody is mocking the companions. You raising and praising them well above their standard, level and position is grave injustice towards others. That's where the problem is and lies.

muslim720

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2020, 03:35:10 AM »
So this tells us what the purpose and point of your post is. You're not here to discuss rationally and generally. It's more personal and specific.

If I had a dollar, and this dimwit was hit on the head with a stick, every time he deflected a question and made it about the intention of the person posting, I would have been richer and he would have been not as dumb.  On second thought, he administers self-slapping and head-beatings to himself.  Maybe he damaged more brain cells than he revived.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Rationalist

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 04:55:20 AM »


That's just not well known, this is also well known and a firm belief of the Muslims that the world will be full of tyranny and injustice and a saviour will come, be it will be born or appear to free the world from tyranny and injustice.
Gross exaggeration. The Prophet (pbuh) came and left his world, and yet the tyranny and injustice continued after him. The same sequence continued in the Imamate of Ali, Hassan and Hussain. How can the Mahdi free the world from it?





Abu Rumaysah

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2020, 12:15:11 PM »
That's just not well known, this is also well known and a firm belief of the Muslims that the world will be full of tyranny and injustice and a saviour will come, be it will be born or appear to free the world from tyranny and injustice.

Probably I am not frequent visitor to forums, and we don't know each other. Because if we would met before, you know that such random selected words could not answer my point.

No, we as a Muslims are not waiting for SHIA Mahdi. Our Mahdi would be normal human, not 1000 years old man.

Quote
Why aren't you going to mention? It's relevant and equally important. Well one thing is settled then, there is such thing as occultation and there have been people going or sent into occultation. And I wonder what for and what logic and reason would be behind that.

You are absolutely correct. One thing is settled for sure. Twelvers were not original in their invention.

Quote
You do accept and believe that others have gone into occultation. What was the reason for that? It's relevant and important. If we understand and agree to that by finding common ground then one can work on this.
No, I don't accept that. Don't put words in my mouth.

Quote
Yes I've thought about this and dealt with it many times over. "God appointed spiritual Imam" Yes. "Leaves his nation without any guidance" Well there were eleven others before him, were they accepted, obeyed and followed? Nope. Allah has left nations in the past because of their continuous neglect and rejection of spiritual guidance. I'll give you examples.

So what is the point of appointed guider, if he gone missing? What shia Mahdi did for Islamic/Shia nation during these years? Let me ques, he like a sun behind the clouds? Right?


Abu Rumaysah

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2020, 12:20:58 PM »
According to  a 12er shia website here are the reasons:
1) He unlike the previous 11 Imams did not want to give Bayah to the rulers
2) To test the 12ers
3) Fear of his Death
4) The hypocrisy of the 12ers

as salam alaykum.

From these 4, there is only one which could make sense. That is Fear.

Not, sure if I got the 1-st one. So, shias do believe that all 11 Imams gave pledge of allegiance to tyrants (as per shia)?

As for the second one, if testing shias in such way is a good idea, then why previous 11 didn't test them in this way? Playing hide and seek for 1200 years, is not sensible/reasonable way of testing.

As for hypocrisy, man you can't be serious. Taqiyaah their religion and religion of their fathers. They always would be hypocrite.

Abu Rumaysah

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2020, 12:22:50 PM »
Nobody is mocking the companions.

hello Martian!

Abu Rumaysah

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2020, 12:27:22 PM »
Just additional thought to initial post that came to my mind.

Idea from Kafi, that Imams knew when they would die, and they die only with their own approval (sick!) completely nullifies idea of Taqiyyah.

What is a point of telling lies (taqiyyah) in shia ahadeth? Imams were afraid that they would be killed by Evil Umayyah, Abbasids or even by their own shias.

If they knew time of their death, what is a point to be afraid?


iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2020, 06:44:31 PM »
Just additional thought to initial post that came to my mind.

Idea from Kafi, that Imams knew when they would die, and they die only with their own approval (sick!) completely nullifies idea of Taqiyyah.

What is a point of telling lies (taqiyyah) in shia ahadeth? Imams were afraid that they would be killed by Evil Umayyah, Abbasids or even by their own shias.

If they knew time of their death, what is a point to be afraid?

Just additional thought to this post that came to my mind. Does our faith and belief depend on Al Kafi. Do you think that everything in Al Kafi is what shiaism is all about. 😊 Then you've got yourself in a twist.

MuslimK

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Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2020, 11:55:48 PM »
Interesting thread!
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2020, 01:44:24 PM »
If I had a dollar, and this dimwit was hit on the head with a stick, every time he deflected a question and made it about the intention of the person posting, I would have been richer and he would have been not as dumb.  On second thought, he administers self-slapping and head-beatings to himself.  Maybe he damaged more brain cells than he revived.

It's so nice to see you getting yourself in a twist everytime. It seems to me you're the one who's damaged his brain cells by the way you sound and respond. For your information once again I don't beat myself or slap my head. The problem with you hate mongers and grudge holders is, you have no intention in discussing or getting to know because of you being brainwashed against Shias from day one. Don't worry about hitting me over the head, it's you who needs rehabilitation because of your brainwashed ideology. This is exactly where Muslim related terrorism comes from. It breeds from extremism that you hold.


Just for the readers and viewers point of view, you don't have to slap or beat yourself to be a Shia. The Shia faith and belief is what really and surely threatens these hate mongers and grudge holders that if they don't paint a bad picture about us and our belief and distract people from us they and their faith will be wiped out. This propaganda against us and our belief has been going on for 1400 years. Is the only way they can survive.

Abu Rumaysah

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2020, 01:54:35 PM »
Just additional thought to this post that came to my mind. Does our faith and belief depend on Al Kafi. Do you think that everything in Al Kafi is what shiaism is all about. 😊 Then you've got yourself in a twist.

These ahadeth, and such chapter could be easily located in other your ahadeth books. So, even if you would reject Kafi completely, this would not help much.
Besides, even your sect got its own standards on authentication of ahadeth. Give a us proofs that mentioned ahadeth are weak.
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2020, 01:55:57 PM by Abu Rumaysah »

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2020, 07:11:59 PM »
These ahadeth, and such chapter could be easily located in other your ahadeth books. So, even if you would reject Kafi completely, this would not help much.
Besides, even your sect got its own standards on authentication of ahadeth. Give a us proofs that mentioned ahadeth are weak.

Nobody said anything about rejecting anything completely. My question was that does the Shia faith and belief depend entirely on a few things you put forward from here and their? Would the Sunni faith and belief entirely and completely depend on a few things any Shia/s would put forward?

"Give a us proofs that mentioned ahadeth are weak"

First of all hadiths are what the Prophet s.a.w said or what is told that he said. What you've put forward aren't hadiths but sayings or narrations. The burden of proof lies upon you. But I won't make any excuses to avoid the subject at hand. Neither will I let you look for any excuses to derail the subject.

muslim720

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2020, 08:31:42 PM »
It's so nice to see you getting yourself in a twist everytime. It seems to me you're the one who's damaged his brain cells by the way you sound and respond. For your information once again I don't beat myself or slap my head. The problem with you hate mongers and grudge holders is, you have no intention in discussing or getting to know because of you being brainwashed against Shias from day one. Don't worry about hitting me over the head, it's you who needs rehabilitation because of your brainwashed ideology. This is exactly where Muslim related terrorism comes from. It breeds from extremism that you hold.

Here is another example of deflection and questioning my intention.  Another dollar that I could have had!



Quote
Just for the readers and viewers point of view, you don't have to slap or beat yourself to be a Shia. The Shia faith and belief is what really and surely threatens these hate mongers and grudge holders that if they don't paint a bad picture about us and our belief and distract people from us they and their faith will be wiped out. This propaganda against us and our belief has been going on for 1400 years. Is the only way they can survive.

More than 1400 years and your population has not gone above 10%.  Clearly our "propaganda" is working against you and your "infallible" Guide is nowhere to rectify your situation.  As the title of the other topic suggests, this is yet another blow to Imamah (and the religion of Imami Shia).
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Khaled

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2020, 09:06:35 PM »
Nobody said anything about rejecting anything completely.

I know I'm wasting my time here, but please, for the love of Ahl al-Bayt (!!), please answer my question.

What about that report do you reject?  Is it them knowing the time of their death?  Or do you reject this report completely and accept other things in Al-Kafi?  I'm just trying to understand what you are actually trying to say.

Quote
My question was that does the Shia faith and belief depend entirely on a few things you put forward from here and their? Would the Sunni faith and belief entirely and completely depend on a few things any Shia/s would put forward?

No of course it doesn't.  See, I answered your question right away.  The reason this report was put forward is to show how al-Kulayni and other Shi'a hadeeth scholars made up ahadeeth to try to reconcile between the Imams knowing everything while simultaneously are killed.  You found this report problematic (you didn't explain why, inshallah you'll have replied to my previous question to clarify) which proves the brother's point. 

Quote
First of all hadiths are what the Prophet s.a.w said or what is told that he said. What you've put forward aren't hadiths but sayings or narrations. The burden of proof lies upon you. But I won't make any excuses to avoid the subject at hand. Neither will I let you look for any excuses to derail the subject.

Ahadeeth are narrations of what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said.  Some are considered Saheeh because they meet a certain criteria, while others are considered hassan or da'eef because they don't meet this criteria.  The 12ers have a similar system for verifying ahadeeth.  If there aren't any actual 12er scholars who have weakened these ahadeeth (an assumption on my part), then why would we accept what you have to say on what 12erism is or isn't.

That's your problem akhi, you expect us to accept your interpretation of 12erism when you are clearly not as knowledgeable about Shi'asm as the average person on this board, let alone your scholars.  So unless you quote your scholars, or at least al-islam.org, then your position is quite frankly, meaningless
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2020, 11:59:03 PM »
Here is another example of deflection and questioning my intention.  Another dollar that I could have had!



More than 1400 years and your population has not gone above 10%.  Clearly our "propaganda" is working against you and your "infallible" Guide is nowhere to rectify your situation.  As the title of the other topic suggests, this is yet another blow to Imamah (and the religion of Imami Shia).

"More than 1400 years and your population has not gone above 10%."

Lol. You believe in numbers. Tell me will the population in heaven be greater or hell. Those who believed were more or thiose who disbelieved. You should get the message.

"Clearly our "propaganda" is working against you"

In numbers, yes but on Haq NO.

"and your "infallible" Guide is nowhere to rectify your situation"

You sound like Nimrod, Pharo or Yazeed

"As the title of the other topic suggests, this is yet another blow to Imamah (and the religion of Imami Shia)"

Your words and yours only. Not the words of a governing body or a globally recognised institution or organisation. This is how bad you are and sound, just like Yazeed.

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2020, 12:56:28 AM »
I know I'm wasting my time here, but please, for the love of Ahl al-Bayt (!!), please answer my question.

What about that report do you reject?  Is it them knowing the time of their death?  Or do you reject this report completely and accept other things in Al-Kafi?  I'm just trying to understand what you are actually trying to say.

No of course it doesn't.  See, I answered your question right away.  The reason this report was put forward is to show how al-Kulayni and other Shi'a hadeeth scholars made up ahadeeth to try to reconcile between the Imams knowing everything while simultaneously are killed.  You found this report problematic (you didn't explain why, inshallah you'll have replied to my previous question to clarify) which proves the brother's point. 

Ahadeeth are narrations of what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said.  Some are considered Saheeh because they meet a certain criteria, while others are considered hassan or da'eef because they don't meet this criteria.  The 12ers have a similar system for verifying ahadeeth.  If there aren't any actual 12er scholars who have weakened these ahadeeth (an assumption on my part), then why would we accept what you have to say on what 12erism is or isn't.

That's your problem akhi, you expect us to accept your interpretation of 12erism when you are clearly not as knowledgeable about Shi'asm as the average person on this board, let alone your scholars.  So unless you quote your scholars, or at least al-islam.org, then your position is quite frankly, meaningless

"I'm just trying to understand what you are actually trying to say"

And I'm trying to understand what you're trying to implement here. Is everything acceptable by you in Sunni authentic books. If I pull out anything from Sunni authentic books and try to implement that this is exactly what the Sunnis or Sunnism is all about, would this be right and correct.

"What about that report do you reject?  Is it them knowing the time of their death?  Or do you reject this report completely and accept other things in Al-Kafi?  I'm just trying to understand what you are actually trying to say"

What about the reports. Are they the saying of the Imams or the opinion of what certain people and scholars think. If a particular Shia scholars has an opinion about something are we suppose to see that as the view of every Shia scholar or individual. Is that how Sunnis see things as. What are you trying to prove.

"No of course it doesn't.  See, I answered your question right away.  The reason this report was put forward is to show how al-Kulayni and other Shi'a hadeeth scholars made up ahadeeth to try to reconcile between the Imams knowing everything"

If I put forward to you something from Sunni books which you reject, am I suppose to say and believe that your scholars or writer/author or the entire book is unreliable and not trustworthy. As far as Imams knowing alot or quite a bit than the average or ordinary individual, is that impossible.

Who was the chap from the crowd who stepped forward and said to king Solomon that I will bring the throne of queen Bilkees faster than the blink of an eye. Can that really and truly be done. Do you believe in this. Because it's in the Qur'an right. Otherwise you would have your doubts. Have knowledge isn't impossible. Whether the Imams did or didn't can be delayed. But one can't say it's impossible or that's not true or it can't happen. Men have been given some knowledge of the book like the chap who brought the throne of bilkees faster than a blink of an eye was it.

"You found this report problematic (you didn't explain why, inshallah you'll have replied to my previous question to clarify) which proves the brother's point"

I never said I find it problematic. I've started off by saying that people's opinion vary. Don't pick bits and pieces and try to make it look and sound either negative and bad or try and make it sound as if it's everybody's opinion. Having knowledge of the unseen and unknown and how much is down to Allah. Such knowledge and or powers have been granted to men in the past which Allah has given examples of. Examples are there to acknowledge and learn. Don't you guys learn. What's the Qur'an and the examples it gives for.

"That's your problem akhi, you expect us to accept your interpretation of 12erism"

You're wrong again as usual. I don't expect anything from you. You've got too much to lose or give up. That's why you have the confrontation stance and you're in absolute rejection and complete denial.

"when you are clearly not as knowledgeable about Shi'asm as the average person on this board"

Lol. Lol again. The average person on this board doesn't have a damn clue about Shiaism. When you're raised to speak and think negative and wrong about Shiaism to begin with then what can one expect from you. You're going to tell me about my faith and community. 😀

"then your position is quite frankly, meaningless"

My position is meaningful and clear. I'm dealing with people with double standards. I know what I'm up against. You have one rule for us and one for yourself.

iceman

Re: Reason of occultation and common sence.
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2020, 01:59:47 AM »
[Solomon] said, "O assembly [of jinn], which of you will bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"
27:39

A powerful one from among the jinn said, "I will bring it to you before you rise from your place, and indeed, I am for this [task] strong and trustworthy."
27:40

Said one who had knowledge from the Scripture, "I will bring it to you before your glance returns to you."
27:41

A jinn has such powers. And what did the one say who had the knowledge from the Scripture? And you're saying that it's impossible for any other beings (Imams) to have knowledge of the Scripture and the unseen?

Why on earth has Allah given and mentioned these examples in the Qur'an about the past? For you to do the same as people from the previous nations did? Suspicion and doubt? I don't expect you to accept anything. I know Saqifa and your desired companions go down badly. This is what everything you bring and say depends and evolves around.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2020, 02:06:30 AM by iceman »

 

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