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Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm

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MuslimK

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Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« on: August 20, 2017, 01:20:40 AM »
A friendly discussion between brother Hassan Shemrani (Sunni convert from Shi'ism) and an Iraqi Shia debater in Hyde Park Speakers' Corner, London, UK (13/08/2017)

Topics covered:

- Al-Tablīgh verse (Arabic: آیة التَّبليغ, propagation/proclamation verse) which is the 67th verse of Surat Al-Ma'ida. Shi'a believe that the subject of the message of the verse was the succession of the Prophet (s) by 'Ali (r).

- The Event of Ghadīr (Arabic: واقعة الغدير), according to Shi'a beliefs, on his return from Hajjat al-Wida', the Prophet (s) introduced Imam Ali (s) as his Khalifah (successor) after himself at a place called Ghadir Khumm.



در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

MuslimAnswers

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 11:40:40 AM »
^

Seems like a commoner Twelver, thus the debate was somewhat mediocre. However, the common refrains, like: "Oh, everyone in the Muslim Ummah knows Verse 5:67 was revealed about Ghadir", show some underlying issues [like lack of research about topics beyond scratching the surface, as a matter of point the traditional Sunnis would find the presentation of the Verse 5:67 as تهديد pointed towards the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) to be a big problem even in the abstract].
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 11:47:00 AM by MuslimAnswers »

MuslimAnswers

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 02:43:49 PM »
^

One additional matter is: We Sunnis are not making the Sahabah into some sort of demi-gods by saying that as an entity the Ummah was able to preserve the religion brought forth by Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) immediately after his passing.

No, this is the normal, rational and quite mundane conclusion one would expect with respect to capable leaders and their followers, it is rather the Twelver contention that is far more outlandish, which is why they need all the numerous concepts [Ghaybah, Taqiyyah, etc.] to try to explain away the normal and rational explanation in favor of another explanation that couldn't be put into practical implementation for the benefit of the Ummah anyway.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 04:47:00 PM »
^

Also the Hafl al-Bayah story brings up an interesting question we should direct to the Twelvers:

If the whole Ummah gave Bay'ah to 'Ali (RAA), then it is necessary for us to have seen, when the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) returned to Madinah, the process for formal transition of power, sort of like when there is a President-Elect in our modern times, which is a process unto itself, and which should have been carried on within the last 2 months of the Prophet's (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) life. But we do not see such a thing, and the most our opponents bring us is the matter of the Pen and the Paper and similar things that have only a small speculative connection with the above.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 04:16:59 PM »
^

Brother Shemrani also did not bring out the bluff about the distance of Ghadir Khumm [the Shia saying it is 20 km. not 100 km., it makes a difference in the argument, especially considering travel times, etc.]. Whichever way, tying Verse 5:67 to this occasion is strange - it is as if according to the Twelver narrative, the declaration should have been made during Hajj, but due to procrastination or fear this was not done, and the Ayah was revealed when it was too late anyway, and most of the Muslims had dispersed. The Twelvers of course try to cover this up by bringing up the story of the "Festival for the Allegiance", but this puts them in even more trouble as noted above.

MuslimK

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Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 04:46:58 PM »
I think brother Shemrani did mention that distance was 100 miles or something.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Link

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2017, 06:27:21 AM »
I find it funny the most narrated event and Hadith is denied to be significant on the premise the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations.  Might as well down play every Hadith if the most narrated Hadith and most established Hadith is not significant if you can have more people pass it on.   #nawasibarestupid #ghadeer
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Mythbuster1

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2017, 04:11:09 PM »
I find it funny the most narrated event and Hadith is denied to be significant on the premise the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations.  Might as well down play every Hadith if the most narrated Hadith and most established Hadith is not significant if you can have more people pass it on.   #nawasibarestupid #ghadeer

Funny? The most narrated??? Please take them Shiite goggles off your making yourself look even more stupid than you already are.

Not all witnessed it and it's NOT THE MOST NARRATED.....DOH, you and your kind seem to overlook or turn a blind eye to the context of it all.

#shiitesarethick #ghadeer

MuslimAnswers

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2017, 04:44:35 PM »
I think brother Shemrani did mention that distance was 100 miles or something.

He did mention it once, but the Shia said Br. Shemrani was basically lying about the distance, there was no rejoinder to that.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2017, 04:46:43 PM »
I find it funny the most narrated event and Hadith is denied to be significant on the premise the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations.  Might as well down play every Hadith if the most narrated Hadith and most established Hadith is not significant if you can have more people pass it on.   #nawasibarestupid #ghadeer

Funny? The most narrated??? Please take them Shiite goggles off your making yourself look even more stupid than you already are.

Not all witnessed it and it's NOT THE MOST NARRATED.....DOH, you and your kind seem to overlook or turn a blind eye to the context of it all.

#shiitesarethick #ghadeer

That is the main problem: Supposing it is the very much narrated, this is still irrelevant to the Twelvers: If we are pathological liars which is their claim, whether we narrate it much or little is irrelevant. If our witnessing and reports are relevant then they have to pay attention to our rules and based on that only we can have a discussion.

Ebn Hussein

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2017, 09:05:53 AM »
I think brother Shemrani did mention that distance was 100 miles or something.

He did mention it once, but the Shia said Br. Shemrani was basically lying about the distance, there was no rejoinder to that.


Brother, it was an unplanned discussion with one of their (believe it or not) top debaters in the park. A frequent visitor who has debated many Sunnis, especially in Arabic. You are right though, I should have emphasised on his mistake which is obviously based on lies they have been brainwashed with since childhood (i.e. Ghadir being just around the corner where ALL Hujjaaj/pilgrims meet before departing, a historical lie that should find it's way in the guinness world records of most shameless lies and cons of history).


I find it funny the most narrated event and Hadith is denied to be significant on the premise the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations.  Might as well down play every Hadith if the most narrated Hadith and most established Hadith is not significant if you can have more people pass it on.   #nawasibarestupid #ghadeer

Strawman. Nobody asked for more people. #RafidabilaAql

You see, you poor lost and confused soul, your very premise it wrong. It was not, is not and will never be the "most narrated event and Hadith", that's what you have been spoon fed with in your Husseiniyyat. It is also not about "the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations." it's about the con of a religion you follow, that want us to believe that the Prophet (saws) spoke in Hajj about:

- Women rights
- Animal rights

... yet not a SINGLE word about 'Ali (ra), let alone the rest of the infallibles from the Persian wive of 'Ali Ibn Al-Hussein (ra). Instead of talking about them he (saws) LEFT the LARGEST gathering in Arabia ever (for that time) without talking about 'Ali, that means the people of Makkah, Yemen, Oman were all left without being informed about the most important pillar of Islam aka the lie of Imamah of 12 Imams (however they were informed about animal rights!). This is indeed laughable. What makes it worse is that your scholars have no shame when producing lies, they have fooled generations (like the miskeen I debated and and people like you) into believing that Ghadir was some major gathering place of ALL Hujjaaj/pilgrimes after Hajj, some sort of suburb of Makkah!!!:

http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/02/24/response-to-why-didnt-the-prophet-of-allah-p-highlight-the-issue-of-complaints-against-imam-ali-as-at-arafat/

The reality is that it was a were the people of Madinah rested, those who are supposed to take care of the Ahl Al-Bayt, those (some among them) who had an issue with Ali (ra) so LOGICALLY the Prophet (saws) addressed THEM with his family and taking 'Ali (ra) as a mawla, not in Makkah.

Our issue is with the deception of your narrative and propagandists who barely mention the ACTUAL context of Ghadir ('Ali having taken a slave girl for sex, ISIS style I guess, having made some other Sahabah angry).

Why do you think your scholars have lied to you gullible lot for centuries right until our times? Because they themselves know how weak and deceptive their understanding of Ghadir is. Not that I have any hope in a disturbed soul like yourself, but for the sake of the vistors I will put our new project's link here:

www.ghadirkhumm.com

All the lies of people smarter and bigger than you with regards to Ghadir have been analysed and debunked.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

GreatChineseFall

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 01:37:00 PM »
I find it funny the most narrated event and Hadith is denied to be significant on the premise the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations.  Might as well down play every Hadith if the most narrated Hadith and most established Hadith is not significant if you can have more people pass it on.   #nawasibarestupid #ghadeer
Downplaying? Coming from a sect that claims that the word "Mother" is used exclusively to inform that such a person should not be married. Double standards?

Link

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 09:30:00 PM »

Downplaying? Coming from a sect that claims that the word "Mother" is used exclusively to inform that such a person should not be married. Double standards?

Better than using it to worship the Taghut as Sunnis do and emphasize of the sorcery of Iblis to do away with the whole Quran as Sunnis do.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2017, 12:29:52 PM »
I think brother Shemrani did mention that distance was 100 miles or something.

ghadeer khum is near today's Rabigh which is 208km trip away (check googlemap). So instead of going straight home after hajj, the locals, people from Taif, Yemen & mamy regions south of Makkah decided to do a loop of 400km+ return trip which would probably take days back then 😂😂😂 #shiaretardedlogic
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 12:46:10 PM by Hadrami »

Link

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2017, 04:05:07 PM »
Prophet preached the truth of Quran and the Wilayah of the 12 Imams and his family, through out his life.

The Ghadeer declaration was to leave a mark through out time and history so that this message he emphasized on his whole life, would pass on even if the interpretation he taught through his life was darkened.

God told him, yes you preached the message your whole life regarding the Authority of myself and my chosen ones, and you emphasized on Ali and your family, but still, there is a danger that lies ahead, and you must make a mark and deliver it to all generations such that even those who oppose it and disbelieve in it, narrate it.

He emphasized on the two weighty things even in Hajj. He emphasized on the Imams through out his life.

However, hajj is about hajj.

He made Ghadeer distinctly and uniquely about Ali and his family.

It left a mark to the degree, no narration has been narrated more than this (despite you trying to hide this fact and deny it).

There is many ahadith we have about Successors, the Twelve, even naming the Imams, but these words, somehow made it through and has been narrated and is well known.

The Prophet chose his words perfectly, that disbelievers and believers alike will pass on the message, while the message remains clear despite hearts trying to twist and escape it and God doesn't guide the disbelieving people.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2017, 05:18:33 AM »
I think brother Shemrani did mention that distance was 100 miles or something.

He did mention it once, but the Shia said Br. Shemrani was basically lying about the distance, there was no rejoinder to that.
if you check shia website such as alislam, even when it mention location, they dont pinpoint exactly where the ghadeer is on the map. They want to make it appear like its close to Makkah when its 200+km away. That distance issue alone will make many shia sheep think about the reliabilty of the claim that it was a meeting point for everyone. If i live in Makkah, is it logical to travel 200km up north and another 200km back? Only shia retarded logic will do that

GreatChineseFall

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2017, 11:01:47 PM »
Better than using it to worship the Taghut as Sunnis do and emphasize of the sorcery of Iblis to do away with the whole Quran as Sunnis do.

You are boring, time and again, you show that you are not very serious with your responses. I could say, this was talking about downplaying not exaggerating and the exaggeration of one sect doesn't justify the downplaying of the other sect. However, to bring it back to your level:

I find it funny the most narrated event and Hadith is denied to be significant on the premise the Prophet should have had more people witness it so as to pass it on to the generations.  Might as well down play every Hadith if the most narrated Hadith and most established Hadith is not significant if you can have more people pass it on.   #nawasibarestupid #ghadeer


Better than using it to worship pious scholars as demigods as Shias do and emphasize of the sorcery of Iblis to do away with the whole Quran as Shias do.


Link

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2017, 11:44:01 PM »
Better than using it to worship pious scholars as demigods as Shias do and emphasize of the sorcery of Iblis to do away with the whole Quran as Shias do.

You are right, the fact that scholars are valued on par with God or even valued ahead of God, to the extent clear Quranic injunctions as well ahadith is abandoned for the sake of these scholars, is a lot worse.

Unfortunately, Shiites use Imams to Worship their scholars, and love to hear the words of their scholars above that of the holy 12.

Three things I believe about Shiites which took me a long time to realize and has made me isolated from them to a great degree . 1. They love their scholars more than Ahlulbayt to the degree they love listening to their scholars more than the words of the Prophet and his Twelve Successors. 2. They love their scholars more than God to the extent even if they are 100% sure in their minds and hearts God commands something in Quran or forbids something, but their scholars teach otherwise, they will defend their scholars and not choose God and his words. 3. They are not ready for Imam Mahdi and would be his number one enemies if he would come today.

With peace, and may God make us take Iblis as an enemy and not value anything near the value we value God with and not love anything near the love we have for God.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2017, 11:58:55 PM »
The pious scholars I was referring to and are taken as demigods, are the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt which all Shias do, including you.

Link

Re: Sunni-Shia debate about Al-Tabligh Verse & Ghadir Khumm
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2017, 01:04:38 AM »
May God help us turn away from all that which cuts us off from him for where will we go to other than his door?
May he makes us grateful for his great favor of which all other favors pale in comparison and love those who are the means to God and due to being his name and face, are the callers to God by which we can glorify God.

May he makes us enemies of the enemies of his chosen ones, and may he unite us on the path that is lead by those who mark the way, those who guide by the truth, those who are the way, split into twelve ways that represent the way of the Captain who founded their boat of salvation, linking back to a single root, those who are pure rivers who unclean tainted water by which others turn to, are not meant to be mixed with them.

May he save us from the sorcery regarding his majestic recitation of this time and make us believe in what his representatives, and the Angels in the unseen, are all calling to and trying to make us see and believe.

May God make us not hate the truth when presented it, not turn away from his proofs when becoming aware of them, and not follow leaders who have no proof for their authority over the callers to God and leaders who guide by his command, who like Moses have been given a manifest authority and clear proofs.

May he make us recite his recitation as it's meant to be recited, and believe in its light and not go against it's very family and those who hold its authority, being the true kings and leaders by which it becomes a leader, and make it a leader by which those who God has proven their authority can guide us and lead us by and are the only ones who the book testifies to their authority.

Ameen Lord of the worlds!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2017, 01:15:00 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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