Material for a New Sunni Defense Video

[muslim720]

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Going through certain videos, I came across this video in which an ex-Sunni "scholar" explains why he became a Shia.  He starts by posing the question, "Who are the Khulafaa Rashideen" and continues by saying that "their minds have been blocked".  You know, the usual allegation, Sunni scholars hold us as mental hostages.  Anyways, he further objects to the phrase "Khulafaa Rashideen" and the concept by saying that "firstly the Prophet (saw) never mentioned this, nor did the Qur'an, nor any explicit text".  In other words, Sunnis coined the phrase after things got really bad.  When did things got bad?  During Muawiyah's rule!  How original!  Always Muawiyah; he coined the phrase "Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah" and to distinguish his "horrible" rule from the upright years of the first four, the Sunnis came up with "Khulafaa Rashideen" as a term and concept.  Again, always Muawiyah and always the face-saving Sunnis.

Well, how about this: "One day, Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) delivered a very effective speech, as a result, eyes shed tears and hearts became softened.  A man said: 'O Prophet of Allah!  It sounds as if this is a farewell speech, so advise us.'  He (ﷺ) said, 'I admonish you to fear Allah, and to listen and obey even if a black slave has been appointed as your leader.  For whoever among you lives after me will see much discord.  So hold fast to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs who will come after me.  Adhere to them and hold fast to them.  Beware of Bid'ah (in religion) because every Bid'ah is a misguidance.' " (Sunan Abu Dawud; At-Tirmidhi)

The Prophet (saw) also said, "The Khilafah in my Ummah after me will be for thirty years.  Then there will be kingship after that." (At-Tirmidhi; Sunan Abu Dawud; Musnad Ahmad)

Through those two narrations, we find out that the Prophet (saw) mentioned a special group known as "Khulafaa Rashideen" and he (saw) set their ruling period to 30 years, hence, we call the first four "Khulafaa Rashideen" because they came after the Prophet (saw) and ruled for almost exactly 30 years.  So the Prophet (saw) mentioned this and we have clear text for it.  I am not a Sunni scholar, far from it, not even an Arab speaker, but I learned this by spending a few years on the internet.  How come this ex-Sunni "scholar" not know this?

Anyways, can we make a video countering this video? 

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[Rationalist]

We need to focus on Mutawatir hadith when dealing with other sects. Otherwise, its going to be a circular debate. If 12 imams concept is so important, why didn't any of the imams tell the entire ummah they were 12 appointed imams. This is where they can't answer. Trying to convince a 12er Shia or any Shia sect about the concept of Khulufa Rashid is not going to work.

[muslim720]

I am not trying to convince them of anything except that this man is not an ex-Sunni "scholar".  No Sunni scholar, current or former, would say regarding the phrase "Khulafaa Rashideen" that "firstly the Prophet (saw) never mentioned this, nor did the Qur'an, nor any explicit text" because we see that the Prophet (saw) mentioned it (by mentioning the term in one hadith and giving the criteria in another) and there is explicit text for it.  And such a conman is given airtime on Ahlul Bayt TV whereas a novice like me, having spent a couple of years on this forum, was able to catch his lie.

[MuslimAnswers]

I agree that to focus on Khulafaa ar-Rashideen is not particularly important in this context, since the claim from the opponent is about a supposed pillar of the religion - it seriously does not matter even if we did accept the First 3 Khulafaa were lacking, the onus is on them and their Infallibles to fix the issue, not on us -we will even concede we are the enemy, OK now their Infallibles have to establish justice, perfect guidance and what not... it is really irrelevant if the enemies are us Sunnis or the enemies are Christians or Jews or Atheists, etc. it is the Infallible Imam who must establish all these things they talk about even in the presence of all of us who disbelieve in them and wish to undermine them.

(Anyway, it is somewhat like a scientific theory, one can criticize Theory A, but that is not enough- the Theory B has to be robust and fully comprehensive and include Theory A and go beyond it, and the 12ers have totally failed in this regard).

[iceman]

We need to focus on Mutawatir hadith when dealing with other sects. Otherwise, its going to be a circular debate. If 12 imams concept is so important, why didn't any of the imams tell the entire ummah they were 12 appointed imams. This is where they can't answer. Trying to convince a 12er Shia or any Shia sect about the concept of Khulufa Rashid is not going to work.

To clear your misconception never mind about the 12 imams even the Prophet (pbuh) himself made it clear. It all boils down to what we consider as strong and therefore acceptable and weak therefore rejectable but Why?

[Rationalist]

To clear your misconception never mind about the 12 imams even the Prophet (pbuh) himself made it clear. It all boils down to what we consider as strong and therefore acceptable and weak therefore rejectable but Why?

No there is no such thing as 12 imams. This was a hadith  fasely attributed to the Prophet (pbuh).

[iceman]

No there is no such thing as 12 imams. This was a hadith  fasely attributed to the Prophet (pbuh).

I have an open mind unlike others. Point taken, what makes you think it was falsely attributed? How did you reach to this conclusion and why?

[Rationalist]

The reason is even in your own books the Imams supposedly told a selected few they are the 12. However, the Imams never made this knowledge public. Even for dawah the Imams never referred to the 12 Calipahs hadith when they were around Sunnis.

[iceman]

I agree that to focus on Khulafaa ar-Rashideen is not particularly important in this context, since the claim from the opponent is about a supposed pillar of the religion - it seriously does not matter even if we did accept the First 3 Khulafaa were lacking, the onus is on them and their Infallibles to fix the issue, not on us -we will even concede we are the enemy, OK now their Infallibles have to establish justice, perfect guidance and what not... it is really irrelevant if the enemies are us Sunnis or the enemies are Christians or Jews or Atheists, etc. it is the Infallible Imam who must establish all these things they talk about even in the presence of all of us who disbelieve in them and wish to undermine them.

(Anyway, it is somewhat like a scientific theory, one can criticize Theory A, but that is not enough- the Theory B has to be robust and fully comprehensive and include Theory A and go beyond it, and the 12ers have totally failed in this regard).

I strongly disagree. The burden of responsibility doesn't lie with us. The problem is not with us or to find a solution. Each and every one of us is responsible for ourselves and it is our duty alone to look at and within ourselves.

[iceman]

The matter is very simple and straightforward. Allah is our God as well as yours, we believe in Muhammad (pbuh) as our Messenger and so do you, Islam is our religion and yours, Qur'an is our book and yours too and the Kabaa is our Qiblah as well as yours.

So what's the difference? Where is the disagreement? It's after the Messenger  (pbuh). And you have two things after the Messenger (pbuh), 1. Caliphate or 2. Imamah. You have your conscious and we have ours. We will be questioned about ourselves and not about each other.

Every one of us is born and raised with a mindset. That's how we're brought up. It's our duty to open up our mind and to see and view things with a broader understanding but with a clear conscious . Or to continue to see and view things according to and based on our mindset.

THE DECISION IS OURS ALONE!

[iceman]

The concept of Imamah according to my opinion is based on Qur'an and Sunnah. There are clear signs and indications about Imamah within. But the concept of Caliphate only depends on the fact that the Qur'an and Sunnah are SILENT on the matter of succession to Muhammad  (pbuh). See the difference.

Caliphate is only justified when you believe in and accept that the Qur'an and Sunnah are completely and absolutely SILENT on such an IMPORTANT matter and that is the succession to Muhammad  (pbuh) and who will lead and deal with affairs of the Ummah after the Messenger (pbuh).

You have first in line in authority and command (ALLAH), you have second in line in authority and command (MESSENGER), the question we need to ask ourselves is 'is there someone third in line in authority and command or not' YES or NO. That's all we need to ask ourselves.

[Rationalist]

. It's our duty to open up our mind and to see and view things with a broader understanding but with a clear conscious . Or to continue to see and view things according to and based on our mindset.

THE DECISION IS OURS ALONE!

How do we open up our minds to the concept of children becoming Imams? In your books a child imam answered 33,000 questions in one  sitting. Then another one dissappered and still did not appear till today. Yet you have to pay khumms in his absence. In your books Imam Jafar's Kunyah is Abu Abdullah yet he disowned Abdullah for declaring the Imamate.How can I open my mind to this?

[iceman]

How do we open up our minds to the concept of children becoming Imams? In your books a child imam answered 33,000 questions in one  sitting. Then another one dissappered and still did not appear till today. Yet you have to pay khumms in his absence. In your books Imam Jafar's Kunyah is Abu Abdullah yet he disowned Abdullah for declaring the Imamate.How can I open my mind to this?

Open up your mind by widening it. Ask yourselves the most important and relevant questions which I have put forward and you haven't bothered to touch. Your talking based on a mindset on what your told to believe.

[Rationalist]

Open up your mind by widening it. Ask yourselves the most important and relevant questions which I have put forward and you haven't bothered to touch. Your talking based on a mindset on what your told to believe.

Your questions don't help me understand the concept of 12 imams. They instead open my mind to agreeing Saqifa was wrong and has nothing to do with Islam. However just because saqifa was wrong, it doesn't automatically mean there are 12 Imams.

[iceman]

Your questions don't help me understand the concept of 12 imams. They instead open my mind to agreeing Saqifa was wrong and has nothing to do with Islam. However just because saqifa was wrong, it doesn't automatically mean there are 12 Imams.

Absolutely. Lets leave the concept of 12 Imams and Saqifa (Imamah and Caliphate) out of it for a minute. Because if we talk about these then we are talking with a mindset to begin with and one can never move forward and onwards and come to a positive and satisfactory conclusion.

[MuslimAnswers]

I strongly disagree. The burden of responsibility doesn't lie with us. The problem is not with us or to find a solution. Each and every one of us is responsible for ourselves and it is our duty alone to look at and within ourselves.

I did not understand what was the relationship with my post, since I exactly said that yes, we will concede, we Sunnis are the enemies of the Infallibles and of their alleged duties of full guidance and leadership - it is then up to the Infallibles then to outmaneuver us Sunnis, something they have been totally unable to do Imam after Imam for more than a millennium. As far as I see it, this is in fact one of the huge negative points against the supposed 12 Infallibles and leaves much to be desired in terms of their competence, let alone infallibility.

[iceman]

Lets open up our mind and consider ourselves neither Shia nor Sunni but just Muslims. Lets ask ourself this,

It's obvious that we as Muslims believe in the following five that I have mentioned,

ALLAH is our God, MUHAMMED is our Messenger, ISLAM is our religion, QUR'AN is our book and the KABAA is our Qiblah.

This is who and what we are. The problem is not about or with in or related to this but after and beyond this.

Lets take this one step at a time. I'm working at the moment.

[Khaled]

The problem is not about or with in or related to this but after and beyond this.

We agree, that is YOUR problem with the rest of the Muslim Ummah.  The rest of the Ummah, ولله الحمد, doesn't have this problem.  It's unfortunately only the 12er Shi'is that, as a madhhab, make takfeer of the rest of the Ummah despite the fact that we have the same Allah, same Qur'an, same Qiblah.

Very good point

[Khaled]

So what's the difference? Where is the disagreement? It's after the Messenger  (pbuh). And you have two things after the Messenger (pbuh), 1. Caliphate or 2. Imamah. You have your conscious and we have ours. We will be questioned about ourselves and not about each other.

Disagree, the difference is whether there is Imamah or not.  You denying all the Khulafa' in the world doesn't make you a kafir in my eye, but me denying even one Imam (even if I believe in all the other ones) make me a kafir in your eyes.  Therefore, you are, as usual, comparing apples with oranges.

Every one of us is born and raised with a mindset. That's how we're brought up. It's our duty to open up our mind and to see and view things with a broader understanding but with a clear conscious . Or to continue to see and view things according to and based on our mindset.

If you were really honest with this rant, you would've admitted that the article you quoted in the other thread was referencing anti-Shi'i books to prove that certain narrations "exist in Sunni sources."  The fact that you didn't bat an eye at that shows that you are not here to have any discussions or open your mind, rather, its' to derail threads because you see what you were "born and raised" with is built on a house of cards.

[Khaled]

The concept of Imamah according to my opinion is based on Qur'an and Sunnah. There are clear signs and indications about Imamah within. But the concept of Caliphate only depends on the fact that the Qur'an and Sunnah are SILENT on the matter of succession to Muhammad  (pbuh). See the difference.

But the Islamic principle is "البينة على المدعي واليمين على من أنكر", its upon you to prove a positive, I don't have to do anything except deny it.  It's like someone saying "I believe there are clear signs and indications about pantheism in the Qur'an, but the concept of denying is based solely on the fact that the Qur'an and Sunnah are SILENT on the matter of pantheism, see the difference?"

Caliphate is only justified when you believe in and accept that the Qur'an and Sunnah are completely and absolutely SILENT on such an IMPORTANT matter and that is the succession to Muhammad  (pbuh) and who will lead and deal with affairs of the Ummah after the Messenger (pbuh).

You claim it is silent, we claim Allah says "وأمرهم شورى بينهم", unfortunately as usual, you are unfamiliar with what non-12ers believe, and are basing solely on what you hear at your majalis.  Unlike us, we base our understanding of 12erism from 12er sources; more proof that you aren't as open minded as you claim you are.

You have first in line in authority and command (ALLAH), you have second in line in authority and command (MESSENGER), the question we need to ask ourselves is 'is there someone third in line in authority and command or not' YES or NO. That's all we need to ask ourselves.

Why do we need to ask ourselves that?  My only two infallible sources are Allah and His Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.

What we need to ask yourselves is the following:

1) If Imamah is so important, why is it only mentioned (according to you) in indication in the Qur'an?  Since there are no clear verses (unless you found a new one), and you admit that we believe the Qur'an is silent on this, then wouldn't it make sense for us to reject the 12er concept of Imamah considering there are no clear verses mentioning it, and the Qur'an warns us about following ambigious verses?
2) If following a specific Imam was so important, how come the Qur'an doesn't mention even one name?  Especially since it is obvious there will be divisions over such an issue.

I was going to do a whole list here, but knowing that you won't answer any thing, I'm just going to stop now