Material for a New Sunni Defense Video

[iceman]

We agree, that is YOUR problem with the rest of the Muslim Ummah.  The rest of the Ummah, ولله الحمد, doesn't have this problem.  It's unfortunately only the 12er Shi'is that, as a madhhab, make takfeer of the rest of the Ummah despite the fact that we have the same Allah, same Qur'an, same Qiblah.

Very good point

You definitely are still stuck with a mindset. We don't have a problem with the rest of the Ummah. Please don't try to derail what is being discussed.

[Khaled]

You definitely are still stuck with a mindset. We don't have a problem with the rest of the Ummah. Please don't try to derail what is being discussed.

You don't have a problem with the rest of the Ummah and I am the one derailing what is being discussed, yet here is you saying...

The problem is not about or with in or related to this but after and beyond this.

Unfortunately, it is you that is "definitely still stuck with a mindset."  You are unable to accept any understanding other than your own, and that's why, whenever someone isn't convinced by you, your only option is to accuse them of being close minded and "hating Shi'as."

[iceman]

You don't have a problem with the rest of the Ummah and I am the one derailing what is being discussed, yet here is you saying...

Unfortunately, it is you that is "definitely still stuck with a mindset."  You are unable to accept any understanding other than your own, and that's why, whenever someone isn't convinced by you, your only option is to accuse them of being close minded and "hating Shi'as."

This is what I said in post #14;

"Absolutely. Lets leave the concept of 12 Imams and Saqifa (Imamah and Caliphate) out of it for a minute. Because if we talk about these then we are talking with a mindset to begin with and one can never move forward and onwards and come to a positive and satisfactory conclusion."

And this is what I said in post #16;

"Lets open up our mind and consider ourselves neither Shia nor Sunni but just Muslims. Lets ask ourself this,

It's obvious that we as Muslims believe in the following five that I have mentioned,

ALLAH is our God, MUHAMMED is our Messenger, ISLAM is our religion, QUR'AN is our book and the KABAA is our Qiblah.

This is who and what we are. The problem is not about or with in or related to this but after and beyond this."

Why do you want to continuously play blind games? Open up your eyes, stop accusing and start discussing by moving on and forward.

[Mythbuster1]

Ok 5 things we all follow.......so why call yourself a shia? Is shia of Ali mentioned in Quran?

Sunna is mentioned hence we are Sunnis which means followers of the way/path of prophet saw:

[The believers are] those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, making good things lawful for them and bad things forbidden for them, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains that were around them. Those who believe in him, honor and help him, and follow the Light that has been sent down with him are successful. (Surat al-A`raf: 157)

The First 4  khalifas were successful Alhamdulillah. They followed His sunna subhanallah. Islam became a success it spread far and wide, for the khalifas followed the light that had been sent down with Him saw, and here we are 1400 years later following the same light.



The split came from people who wanted to become shia, hence the ayah in the Quran of avoiding splitting into Shias, shias follow that which is not in the Quran ie Imamate so they split from the majority.

Honestly it’s that simple.

[iceman]

Ok 5 things we all follow.......so why call yourself a shia? Is shia of Ali mentioned in Quran?

Sunna is mentioned hence we are Sunnis which means followers of the way/path of prophet saw:

[The believers are] those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, making good things lawful for them and bad things forbidden for them, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains that were around them. Those who believe in him, honor and help him, and follow the Light that has been sent down with him are successful. (Surat al-A`raf: 157)

The First 4  khalifas were successful Alhamdulillah. They followed His sunna subhanallah. Islam became a success it spread far and wide, for the khalifas followed the light that had been sent down with Him saw, and here we are 1400 years later following the same light.



The split came from people who wanted to become shia, hence the ayah in the Quran of avoiding splitting into Shias, shias follow that which is not in the Quran ie Imamate so they split from the majority.

Honestly it’s that simple.

It is that simple but unfortunately you've got the wrong end of the stick that's why it's turned hard and difficult. I'll tell you why.

[iceman]

I was trying to start a general discussion but you gents have brought in the mindset again along with the mind games. Gentlemen I can only serve you one by one so one by one and one step at a time. Who's first?

[iceman]

Ok 5 things we all follow.......so why call yourself a shia? Is shia of Ali mentioned in Quran?

Sunna is mentioned hence we are Sunnis which means followers of the way/path of prophet saw:

[The believers are] those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, making good things lawful for them and bad things forbidden for them, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains that were around them. Those who believe in him, honor and help him, and follow the Light that has been sent down with him are successful. (Surat al-A`raf: 157)

The First 4  khalifas were successful Alhamdulillah. They followed His sunna subhanallah. Islam became a success it spread far and wide, for the khalifas followed the light that had been sent down with Him saw, and here we are 1400 years later following the same light.



The split came from people who wanted to become shia, hence the ayah in the Quran of avoiding splitting into Shias, shias follow that which is not in the Quran ie Imamate so they split from the majority.

Honestly it’s that simple.

Ok, lets start off with you. .You said;
"so why call yourself a shia?"
What is wrong with calling yourself a Shia? Is there or are there any restrictions on this? Is one not suppose to call themselves Shia?

Note: Shia means follower, supporter, associate, friend.

References, In the Qur'an Allah mentioned that Abraham was a Shia. Allah also mentioned who's Shia he was, Allah also mentions an incident during the time of Moses, where two people had an argument over their differences and fell into dispute. One turned out to be an enemy of Moses and the other turned out to be his Shia.

Will continue this.

[iceman]

The Qur'an was fully revealed and later on the Messenger (pbuh) passed away. More Shias emerged and as time went by more surfaced.we had companions(members of the Ummah) who disagreed with the decision made in Saqifa and refused to swear allegiance to Abu Baker. They were known as Shia e Ali.

Later on more Shias emerged as time went by fore example Shia e Usman, Shia e Ali, Shia e  Moavia, Shia e Hussain, Shia e Yazeed etc. History and historical incidents and events are there as facts to prove this.

[iceman]

Your next question;

" Is shia of Ali mentioned in Quran?"

If it was mentioned in the Qur'an as you have phrased and expect it (in black and white) then we wouldn't be having this discussion and there wouldn't be a divide based on such.

Is every single thing in the Qur'an right from the beginning till the end, every tiny detail? What we do have in the Qur'an is the principles, rules and regulations.The Prophet's (pbuh) duty is to define, show, point out etc.

[Mythbuster1]

Ok, lets start off with you. .You said;
"so why call yourself a shia?"
What is wrong with calling yourself a Shia? Is there or are there any restrictions on this? Is one not suppose to call themselves Shia?

Note: Shia means follower, supporter, associate, friend.

References, In the Qur'an Allah mentioned that Abraham was a Shia. Allah also mentioned who's Shia he was, Allah also mentions an incident during the time of Moses, where two people had an argument over their differences and fell into dispute. One turned out to be an enemy of Moses and the other turned out to be his Shia.

Will continue this.

Lol your going round in circles,as previously posted by Muslim 720 Quran mentions Shias:

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects (Shias), you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.”
(6:159)

Previous prophets as had THEIR followers hence they were shia/followers, yet I can’t recall our prophet saw saying you are my shia to Muslims as in shia of Ali ra as in the word shia you defend after His passing in hadith or quran,why not?

Don’t give me Ghadeer or unambiguous verses from the Quran.....or unauthentic evidences.

Shia is a loose word and can be connected to good and evil, You are using it as good and using examples of prophets as (Because there is NOTHING else in the Quran to defend you) where as it can be used for bad also.

So again I ask WHY call yourself shia of Ali ra when there is no mention of such in the Quran? Yet you are jumping up and down about saqifa.

That’s what you should answer, does Quran mention Shias as in you twelvers shia and not Shias of OTHER prophets.......is that understandable?

[Mythbuster1]

The Qur'an was fully revealed and later on the Messenger (pbuh) passed away. More Shias emerged and as time went by more surfaced.we had companions(members of the Ummah) who disagreed with the decision made in Saqifa and refused to swear allegiance to Abu Baker. They were known as Shia e Ali.

Later on more Shias emerged as time went by fore example Shia e Usman, Shia e Ali, Shia e  Moavia, Shia e Hussain, Shia e Yazeed etc. History and historical incidents and events are there as facts to prove this.

Yes the shiane Ali’s, Uthman s, Mu’awiyas husseins etc were ALL MUSLIMS FIRST AND FOREMOST, they were political and not religious Shias, so please stop with your engraved secterian mindset......we can see through what weak defence you put up.

[Mythbuster1]

Your next question;

" Is shia of Ali mentioned in Quran?"

If it was mentioned in the Qur'an as you have phrased and expect it (in black and white) then we wouldn't be having this discussion and there wouldn't be a divide based on such.

Is every single thing in the Qur'an right from the beginning till the end, every tiny detail? What we do have in the Qur'an is the principles, rules and regulations.The Prophet's (pbuh) duty is to define, show, point out etc.

So where is the principle of Shias in Quran? Rule? Regulation? Yet the prophet saw never mentioned such Shias.

The main PRINCIPLES are in the Quran the FUNDAMENTALS are CLEAR my friend and then the prophet saw guided us on them.

Again as CLEAR as day there is no shia mentioned in Quran just like on Imamate v saqifa where saqifa is mentioned and Imamate is nowhere to be seen.

[muslim720]

Can we please make the video to refute Ahlul Bayt TV's fake "ex-Sunni scholar"?  I noticed my comment posted under the video has been deleted, lol.

[MuslimK]

^ Good Idea.

[muslim720]

^ Good Idea.

Alhamdulilah, finally someone agrees with me, lol.

[iceman]

Lol your going round in circles,as previously posted by Muslim 720 Quran mentions Shias:

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects (Shias), you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.”
(6:159)

Previous prophets as had THEIR followers hence they were shia/followers, yet I can’t recall our prophet saw saying you are my shia to Muslims as in shia of Ali ra as in the word shia you defend after His passing in hadith or quran,why not?

Don’t give me Ghadeer or unambiguous verses from the Quran.....or unauthentic evidences.

Shia is a loose word and can be connected to good and evil, You are using it as good and using examples of prophets as (Because there is NOTHING else in the Quran to defend you) where as it can be used for bad also.

So again I ask WHY call yourself shia of Ali ra when there is no mention of such in the Quran? Yet you are jumping up and down about saqifa.

That’s what you should answer, does Quran mention Shias as in you twelvers shia and not Shias of OTHER prophets.......is that understandable?

This verse has been mentioned a few times and no one has responded to what I asked on it. Why have you added the word SHIA in brackets? This is an addition by your kind. Which word from the verse clearly means and tells SHIA? It only means 'and break up into sects'. That's all it means.

The answer to your next bit, the Qur'an mentions the incident that took place during the time and generation of Moses, where a two individuals were in conflict and one was a Shia of Moses and the other was an enemy (disbeliever) of Moses. Do you know the incident? I'm sure you do. The Qur'an mentions about the Shia of Moses or Moses had Shias,

Note the Qur'an mentions. What about the book of Allah that was revealed on Moses? Does that book mention that Moses had Shias? According to your theory it should be in the book of Moses about his Shias. If you believe that the Qur'an should clearly mention the Shia of Muhammad  (pbuh) or Ali then,

surely according to your theory the book of Moses should mention the Shia of Moses. Also you want proof from the Qur'an or the Qur'an should absolutely and clearly in black and white according to your desire mention Imamah then surely according to your theory it would be and should be more appropriate and reasonable for the book of Allah, THE BIBLE, to mention the occultation of Jesus.

Why doesn't the BIBLE clearly and exactly mention that Jesus wasn't crucified? Or does it? The Bible is the book of Allah and which is connected to Jesus not the Qur'an, so according to your theory the Bible should clearly and exactly mention that Jesus wasn't crucified. Why does the Bible not mention this?

You want the Qur'an to mention this, that and the other but why doesn't the book of Moses mention that Moses had Shias. And why doesn't the book of Jesus mention that Jesus wasn't crucified? Or do they. Do ponder over your theory!

[iceman]

Lol your going round in circles,as previously posted by Muslim 720 Quran mentions Shias:

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects (Shias), you have no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.”
(6:159)

Previous prophets as had THEIR followers hence they were shia/followers, yet I can’t recall our prophet saw saying you are my shia to Muslims as in shia of Ali ra as in the word shia you defend after His passing in hadith or quran,why not?

Don’t give me Ghadeer or unambiguous verses from the Quran.....or unauthentic evidences.

Shia is a loose word and can be connected to good and evil, You are using it as good and using examples of prophets as (Because there is NOTHING else in the Quran to defend you) where as it can be used for bad also.

So again I ask WHY call yourself shia of Ali ra when there is no mention of such in the Quran? Yet you are jumping up and down about saqifa.

That’s what you should answer, does Quran mention Shias as in you twelvers shia and not Shias of OTHER prophets.......is that understandable?

You further say,

"Don’t give me Ghadeer or unambiguous verses from the Quran.....or unauthentic evidences."

I won't give you Ghadeer because I know it stings badly and gives your kind shock waves.

"Or unambiguous verses from the Quran"

Man verses are verse and the Qur'an is serious. But if you see and speak so loose about it then that's down to you.

You further say,

"Shia is a loose word and can be connected to good and evil"

That's the point I made In one of my early posts.

"You are using it as good and using examples of prophets"

And ma brother you are doing exactly the same thing and that is using it as evil and labelling us with it. So practice what you preech.

"Because there is NOTHING else in the Quran to defend you"

There is plenty in the Qur'an that justifies us and our belief. But there's not much you can do with the arrogant and ignorant. It's not about us and shouldn't be about us but that's what your kind are obsessed about it guess. It should be about the truth but you're too busy and engaged with us.
 
"where as it can be used for bad also."

Ok, show me in/from the Qur'an?

[muslim720]

This verse has been mentioned a few times and no one has responded to what I asked on it. Why have you added the word SHIA in brackets? This is an addition by your kind. Which word from the verse clearly means and tells SHIA? It only means 'and break up into sects'. That's all it means.

I will give you the benefit of doubt and clarify this verse for you, one more time.

'Inna Al-Ladhīna Farraqū Dīnahum Wa Kānū Shiya`āan Lasta Minhum Fī Shay'in ۚ 'Innamā 'Amruhum 'Ilá Allāhi Thumma Yunabbi'uhum Bimā Kānū Yaf`alūna

"Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you (O Muhammad SAW) have no concern in them in the least.  Their affair is only with Allāh, Who then will tell them what they used to do."  (Surah Al-An'am 6:159)

The word "Shia" was added in the bracket to show you the Arabic word which occurs in the verse for sect.  The name of the Prophet (saw) is in the bracket to show that Allah (swt) was directing this message to him.  So this verse says that the Prophet (saw) has nothing to do with anyone who breaks the religion and divides into sects, calling themselves Shia.  Hence, there is no addition; the word "shia" occurs in the verse and since the Prophet (saw) is being addressed, his name is in parentheses.

Now, we can analyze what I have already broken down for you.

- Did a group of Muslims break off from the main body of Muslims?  YES!
- Did they adopt the term "Shia" in an ideological or creedal (not just political) sense to distinguish themselves from mainstream Muslims?  YES!
- Did they come up with their own way of doing things quite different than the rest of the Muslims?  YES!
- Do they still adhere to the label of "Shia" despite the Qur'anic warning?  YES!

Therefore, Allah (swt) will tell them what they used to do.

[iceman]

I will give you the benefit of doubt and clarify this verse for you, one more time.

'Inna Al-Ladhīna Farraqū Dīnahum Wa Kānū Shiya`āan Lasta Minhum Fī Shay'in ۚ 'Innamā 'Amruhum 'Ilá Allāhi Thumma Yunabbi'uhum Bimā Kānū Yaf`alūna

"Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you (O Muhammad SAW) have no concern in them in the least.  Their affair is only with Allāh, Who then will tell them what they used to do."  (Surah Al-An'am 6:159)

The word "Shia" was added in the bracket to show you the Arabic word which occurs in the verse for sect.  The name of the Prophet (saw) is in the bracket to show that Allah (swt) was directing this message to him.  So this verse says that the Prophet (saw) has nothing to do with anyone who breaks the religion and divides into sects, calling themselves Shia.  Hence, there is no addition; the word "shia" occurs in the verse and since the Prophet (saw) is being addressed, his name is in parentheses.

Now, we can analyze what I have already broken down for you.

- Did a group of Muslims break off from the main body of Muslims?  YES!
- Did they adopt the term "Shia" in an ideological or creedal (not just political) sense to distinguish themselves from mainstream Muslims?  YES!
- Did they come up with their own way of doing things quite different than the rest of the Muslims?  YES!
- Do they still adhere to the label of "Shia" despite the Qur'anic warning?  YES!

Therefore, Allah (swt) will tell them what they used to do.

So there is no word in the verse that means and speaks about the Shia sect. The bit  "wa kanu sheya'an" means "and become sects". It's got nothing to do with any one or particular sect.

Notice the word "sheya'an" which is plural and means "sects". You're only giving it your own flavour and taste.

You don't need to add Muhammad (pbuh) in brackets to show that Allah is speaking to him. It's common basic sense that Allah is speaking to him. A fool would even know this.

"Did a group of Muslims break off from the main body of Muslims?  YES!"

Absolutely, I agree. They ended up in Saqifa while the main body of Muslims were mourning the Prophet (pbuh) and were busy with his funeral arrangements.

"Did they adopt the term "Shia" in an ideological or creedal (not just political) sense to distinguish themselves from mainstream Muslims?  YES!"

I absolutely agree but they didn't adopt the term SHIA but in fact they adopt the term HANAFI and labelled and called themselves separate. You had further breaks after that and separate labelling such as MALIKI,  SHAFA'EE and HANBALI.

"Did they come up with their own way of doing things quite different than the rest of the Muslims?  YES!"

I absolutely agree. Four completely different schools of thought and four completely different ways of doing things.

"Do they still adhere to the label of "Shia" despite the Qur'anic warning?  YES!"

I absolutely disagree. The Qur'an doesn't mention or speak about the term SHIA in a loose way. In fact it speaks about and gives good examples of SHIA.

And still if you want to keep your eyes shut and keep repeating "well I can't see anything" then good luck to you.

[muslim720]

So there is no word in the verse that means and speaks about the Shia sect. The bit  "wa kanu sheya'an" means "and become sects". It's got nothing to do with any one or particular sect.

It has everything to do with those who break the religion into sects, like yourself.

Notice the word "sheya'an" which is plural and means "sects". You're only giving it your own flavour and taste.

You happen to be one of the many splinter groups.  I would put forth the same argument to them except your blunder is too hard to cover up.  You have split the religion and adopted the term "Shia" as your identity.

You don't need to add Muhammad (pbuh) in brackets to show that Allah is speaking to him. It's common basic sense that Allah is speaking to him. A fool would even know this.

Now would the fool acknowledge that the Prophet (saw) has nothing to do with his sectarian ways, as per the Qur'an?

Absolutely, I agree. They ended up in Saqifa while the main body of Muslims were mourning the Prophet (pbuh) and were busy with his funeral arrangements.

Your hasty response, which you thought would get you somewhere except it will bring embarrassment upon you, has had you define being at Saqifah as breaking off from the main body of Muslims.  What you did not realize is that the main body of Muslims were already at Saqifah so if anything, they went to join them.  As for those who were busy with the burial of the Prophet (saw), they were his family members and it was their duty to perform the final rites.  Not to forget that the same people who went to Saqifah prayed janazah upon the Prophet (saw) and those who stayed behind (to perform the final rites) pledged allegiance to them and remained with them.

I absolutely agree but they didn't adopt the term SHIA but in fact they adopt the term HANAFI and labelled and called themselves separate. You had further breaks after that and separate labelling such as MALIKI,  SHAFA'EE and HANBALI.

If you do not know the difference between aqeedah and fiqh, I suggest you spend more time learning than visiting this forum.  A Shafi'i, Hanafi, Maliki and Hanbali differ upon fiqhi matters.  Can you say the same regarding Zaidis or Ismailis?

I absolutely agree. Four completely different schools of thought and four completely different ways of doing things.

All four schools and different ways of doing things backed up by Qur'an and Sunnah.  Can you substantiate your most fundamental belief, Imamah, from the Qur'an and Sunnah? 

I absolutely disagree. The Qur'an doesn't mention or speak about the term SHIA in a loose way. In fact it speaks about and gives good examples of SHIA.

Except when it comes to breaking into sects and factions.

And still if you want to keep your eyes shut and keep repeating "well I can't see anything" then good luck to you.

Coming from you, it made me laugh out loud.  The Qur'an condemns those who split into sects and call themselves "Shia", and you cannot see it, lol.

"Of those who split up their religion, and became sects (Shia), [i.e. they invented new things in the religion (Bid'ah), and followed their vain desires], each sect rejoicing in that which is with it." (Ar-Rum 30:32)