Material for a New Sunni Defense Video

[Khaled]

*double post*

[Khaled]

Lets see if I can get through to you because I seem to have problems getting through to him (Muslim 720).

Would you mind putting the evidence forward by breaking it down and explaining it to me rather than accusing me of something than giving me funny and silly examples and trying to make me guess, when you can easily put the actual thing forward. Is this too much to ask for or is it too much for you?

I don't mind at all, but I have a feeling you'll just ignore it... If you ask me to explain your blunder, then please have the decency to respond.

In http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/imamah-usul-al-din-or-usul-al-mathab/msg22030/#msg22030, you copied and pasted a narration which said:

يَا عَلِيُّ أَبْشِرْ، فَإِنَّكَ وَأَصْحَابُكَ وَشِيعَتُكَ فِي الْجَنَّةِ

Now notice the list of sources:

1. Fadha’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655

The chain says

قَالَ أَبُو مُكْرَمٍ عُقْبَةُ: وَكَانَ مِنَ الشِّيعَةِ

Not only is he classified as "maqbool" meaning his narrations can't be taken in isolation, the chain itself tells us that he was a Shi'i; hence, a Shi'i quoting a report saying "The Shi'i will be victorious."  Circular reasoning at its 12er finest.  Not to mention the rest of the chain is filled with problems; Abu Jahhaf is also Shi'i, and his saying "قال أبو مكرم" gives an implication that the chain is disconnected, Suwar bin Mus'ab is agreed upon his weakness, and Younus bin Bukair, while Sadooq, is known to make mistakes.  That's five quick problems with the chains that you can try to resolve.  Unfortunately, I know the 12er Hadeeth Shi'a science is not based on the authenticity of the chain, but rather, based on what you guys think will coincide with your theology.

2. Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu’aym, v4, p329

Can't find it, if you can help me locate this I'd appreciate it.  My copy has a report about Imam Ali عليه السلام flogging someone.

3. Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289

والله I couldn't have asked for anything more rediculous than this quote.  Look at what the report says!!:

أَنْتَ وَأَصْحَابُكَ فِي الْجَنَّةِ، أَنْتَ وَشِيعَتُكَ فِي الْجَنَّةِ، إِلا أَنَّ مِمَّنْ يُحِبُّكَ قَوْمًا يُضْفَزُونَ الإِسْلامَ بِأَلْسِنَتِهِمْ يَقْرَءُونَ الْقُرْآنَ لا يُجَاوِزْ تَرَاقِيَهُمْ، لَهُمْ نَبَزٌ يُسَمَّوْنَ الرَّافِضَةَ، فَإِذَا لَقِيتَهُمْ، فَجَاهِدْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ مُشْرِكُونَ "، قَالَ: قُلْتُ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، مَا عَلامَةُ ذَلِكَ فِيهِمْ؟ قَالَ: " يَتْرُكُونَ الْجُمُعَةَ وَالْجَمَاعَةَ، وَيَطْعَنُونَ فِي السَّلَفِ الأَوَّلِ

Honestly, this is significantly worse than the 7th quote!  If you can read Arabic you'd recognize the report says, "You and your companions are in heaven, you and your Shi'a are in heaven.  Except a group who (don't know the translation) Islam with their tongues, they read the Qur'an and it doesn't go past their throat, they have a distinction and are known as the Rafida.  If you meet them, fight them for their are Mushrisks!"  I said (i.e. Ali عليه السلام), "What is their sign?"  He said (i.e. the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم), "They leave off the Jumu'ah and the Jama'ah, and they abuse the early generations."

While this report spectacularly backfired in your face, note that I do NOT authenticate this report as it is an obvious fabrication.  The fact that you just pick and chose PARTS of any fabrication you find just shows how desperate you are to aid your sect.  The true sign of a sectarian.

For the record, this report is found in other books of history like Tareek Dimashq as well.

4. al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani

Al-Awsat for the record, is a book written for reports that the author only found one teacher to narrated the chain from.  Although for the record, I also did not find this report here, if you can provide a page number (I'm obviously being facetious since I know you can't do that) I'd appreciate it.  I'm guessing the people you copied and pasted from relied on the following...

5. Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22

A tertiary source for the record as he quotes various reports from al-Awsat in praise of Ali عليه السلام with similar wording to the hadeeth you are quoting, WEAKENING every single one.

6. al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.

Where, in which book?  If he said it has been narrated via numerous authorities, did he actually authenticate any of them?

7. al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247

This book's full title is الصواعق المحرقة على أهل الرفض والضلال والزندقة "The Burning Lightning Bolts for the People of Rafd, Misguidance and Heresy."  LOL, I wonder why the people you copied and pasted that from didn't want to quote the full title.  He quotes the tradition four times, each time refuting the Shi'as for using it and calling it weak.  The fact that those you copied and pasted that from were so shameless in quoting this just shows what level of sincerity the people that wrote it had.  It's literally like someone quoting my post right now and going, "look, this hadeeth is in a Sunni source."

What a depressing, depressing post...

[muslim720]

BLUNDER, ok WHAT BLUNDER? Get it WHAT BLUNDER? You've accused me of BLUNDER but you don't want to explain it, HOW and IN WHAT WAY.

How many different ways can I explain it to you?  I have already explained it in English; I can do the same in Dari, Pashto, Urdu, Hindi and maybe Punjabi.

Let us start fresh.  Did you quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah by ibn Hajar Al-Haytami (rah) to prove a point in favor of Shiaism?  Yes or no?

Again CAUGHT MAKING A BLUNDER, you've accused me of something which you've mentioned but you don't want to explain it. How and in what way. I've asked you to discuss it, what I mean by this is you've accused of this bit you don't want to put the evidence forward.

Did you quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah to substantiate one or more Shia beliefs?  I will dumb this down as much as you want so that someday you realize that you were arguing not to learn but just to argue.

You've accuse me of something and you've just mentioned it and that is it. You're repeating it like a parrot who's completely lost it but you don't want to explain it by how and in what way.

In order to prove the correctness of Shiaism, did you copy-paste an article which quoted Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah by Al-Haytami (rah)?  Yes or no?

Being accused of a crime is one thing and then mentioning the crime is another. I say that is fine and this is what you've done. Now I'm asking you to explain and prove the crime that you believe I've committed and you're going awol over it.

In an attempt to prove your point (to supplement your beliefs), did you quote an article which quoted Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah?  Yes or no?

As far as the rest of your crap based on funny and silly examples is concerned, I say save the examples and bring and put the actual thing forward. Discuss it with me by explaining the actual thing and not by explaining it through ridiculous examples.

Here is the start of the discussion.  Did you or did you not quote an article which cites Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah to substantiate one or more Shi'i beliefs?

Yes I do understand Urdu, CHOREE? Bhai choree ka ilzam lagaya hai tho ab sabath be tho karo. Ilzam laga kar idar udar kyu bagh rehai ho.

Bhaagna to aap logo ki fitrat mein hai!  Main phir se apna sawaal dohrata hoo, kyuki aapka dimaag ghaas charne gaya hai.  Apni aqaaid ko saabit karne ke liye, kya aapne Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah se hawaala pesh kiya ya nahi?  Haa yaa naa?

It looks like you've got to learn a lot about law. Lets DISCUSS  your example which you are so afraid to do and that is DISCUSS.

I am discussing with you and starting anew, leaving all my "crap based on funny and silly examples" aside.  Did you, in hopes to prove Shiaism true, quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah?  Yes or no?

If a person gets caught shop lifting then that doesn't mean the police's job is done and it's down to the person caught. NO.The job of the police has just begun. They need to start preparing the case for the CPS, the CROWN PROSECUTION SERVICE.

Awesome!  So let us prepare a case for or against you.  Did you try to prove one or more Shi'i beliefs by quoting Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah?  Yes or no?

It seems to me that you really need to know and learn a lot. You aren't the police and I haven't been caught but repeatedly like a parrot been accused of a crime which has been mentioned but not proven.You need to start explaining yourself or start preparing the case. Otherwise you've got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to stand on.

Case has been initiated; did you quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah to validate one or more Shi'i beliefs?  Yes or no?

[Khaled]

Case has been initiated; did you quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah to validate one or more Shi'i beliefs?  Yes or no?

The quote from Tarikh al-Baghadad is just as bad if not even worse

[iceman]

I just don't understand what the hell took you so long. You could have done this in the first instant and place, without all the drama and who haa. Why does it take a few knocks on the head and really good kick in to get certain people going. That's ok, I'll pat myself on the back for eventually getting you to come around.

[muslim720]

The quote from Tarikh al-Baghadad is just as bad if not even worse

I don't know Arabic nor do I have the book so I exposed him on what I could research and it was enough to establish that Iceman, along with those who wrote that article, are extremely ignorant.

Iceman also presented the following reference: "Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p62".  Al-Qundoozi Al-Hanafi is not Sunni.

And another lie: "Sunni reference: Rabi al-Abrar, by al-Zamakhshari".  Al-Zamakhshari was a Mu'tazili, not Sunni.

How about this reference: "al-Tabarani, on the authority of Imam ‘Ali"....that is not even a reference!  Furthermore, the two were not contemporaries so Al-Tabarani could not have heard it from Imam Ali (ra) without a chain (and we have been given no chain, no book name to look up the chain, nothing).

Similar reference: "al-Hafidh Jamaluddin al-Dharandi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas"

Here is another reference: "al-Tabarani, as quoted in:"  Al-Tabarani, as quoted in WHAT, WHICH BOOK?  The reference reads as follows, "al-Tabarani, as quoted in:"  SubhanAllah!

We are not done; here is another reference: "Ibn Abi Hatam, as mentioned in:"  Reference ends with no book name, nothing.

More references:
"Ibn al-Najjar, on the authority of Ibn Abbas"....how is this a reference?

"Abu Nu’aym and Ibn Asakir, on the authority of Abu Layla"....no book name, nothing!

[muslim720]

I just don't understand what the hell took you so long.

Better late than never!  Now don't go into hiding; answer my points and also Khaled's, please!

[iceman]

Better late than never!  Now don't go into hiding; answer my points and also Khaled's, please!

I've never been into hiding and I've never ran from anything and you know that. It's not in my nature.

[muslim720]

I've never been into hiding and I've never ran from anything and you know that. It's not in my nature.

Maybe you can put your money where your mouth is; address our points!

[Khaled]

I just don't understand what the hell took you so long. You could have done this in the first instant and place, without all the drama and who haa. Why does it take a few knocks on the head and really good kick in to get certain people going. That's ok, I'll pat myself on the back for eventually getting you to come around.

The reason it took so long is because it actually took me a long time to write that post; its basically me wasting my time while you choose to ignore everything I said, like usual.

But now that you have read that, do you not see the problem with your post?  Or are you still buckling down?

[iceman]

Maybe you can put your money where your mouth is; address our points!

I've always done that and everything is here on this site in black and white. You just don't want to open your eyes because you're too afraid to see your own ignorance.

[iceman]

The reason it took so long is because it actually took me a long time to write that post; its basically me wasting my time while you choose to ignore everything I said, like usual.

But now that you have read that, do you not see the problem with your post?  Or are you still buckling down?

Thank God you two aren't police officers otherwise you would be leaving everything to the accused. Some officers you two would make.

[Khaled]

Thank God you two aren't police officers otherwise you would be leaving everything to the accused. Some officers you two would make.

What a truly insincere person...

[iceman]

What a truly insincere person...

Just talking facts.

[Khaled]

Just talking facts.

Facts you quoted from al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah lol?  You are truly an embarrassment

[iceman]

Facts you quoted from al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah lol?  You are truly an embarrassment

Is that the only reference you've seen?

"You are truly an embarrassment"

Here comes the air and wind again.

[iceman]

Facts you quoted from al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah lol?  You are truly an embarrassment

This is what Muslim 720 says in post #53,

:If you had that much sense, you may not have quoted from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah.  Oh wait, you just copy-pasted that"

And this is Muslim 720 from post #62,

"Case has been initiated; did you quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah to validate one or more Shi'i beliefs?  Yes or no?"

Look what he says first,

"you may not have quoted from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah."

Look what he says next,

"Oh wait, you just copy-pasted that"

And look what comes next,

"did you quote from Al-Sawa'iq Al-Muhriqah to validate one or more Shi'i beliefs?  Yes or no?"

He's all over the place, isn't he.

And here is the start and very beginning of my case in defence.

Was it my quote? Or was it copy and paste? Did I put the material forward as my work and was it from me? Or did I put someone else's work forward and asked your opinion on it?

This is what I put at the end of the post,

"'IT'S NOT ACTUALLY THE COPY AND PASTE THAT YOU'RE HESITANT AND AFRAID OF BUT ACTUALLY THE MATERIAL ITSELF. DO TELL ME HOW YOU FOUND THE RESPONSE AND PLEASE DO REFUTE IT IF YOU WISH TO. THAT IS YOUR RIGHT AND THAT IS WHAT BRINGS ABOUT A HEALTHY DISCUSSION."

It was a lengthy post with a lot of references but you didn't comment on them but found only one or two to comment on because it benefited your desire and you thought it gave you the edge.

[Khaled]

*snip*
It was a lengthy post with a lot of references but you didn't comment on them but found only one or two to comment on because it benefited your desire and you thought it gave you the edge.

Our problem with that article was that the author quoted a narration from al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah to prove that it was in a "Sunni source."  You, being completely ignorant, were unaware and you quoted it saying "I couldn't have said it more accurately" (LOL).  I went through EVERY SINGLE reference the author made to that hadeeth and showed that only a brain dead sectarian could possibly take that seriously.

You are embarrassing dude

[iceman]

Be it work or news, if it's from you and your the source then you are accountable and have to give an explanation. But if it's not from you and you've just put it forward or passed it on and expect it to be challenged/refuted then are you accountable and explainable when you aren't the source and reason?

This is the beginning of my case in defence. Thank God you two aren't police officers or lawyers/solicitors because you'd be an absolute embarrassment to the force or the law profession.

[Khaled]

Be it work or news, if it's from you and your the source then you are accountable and have to give an explanation. But if it's not from you and you've just put it forward or passed it on and expect it to be challenged/refuted then are you accountable and explainable when you aren't the source and reason?

This is the beginning of my case in defence. Thank God you two aren't police officers or lawyers/solicitors because you'd be an absolute embarrassment to the force or the law profession.

So I didn't give an explanation?  Are you serious? 

I honestly am feeling so embarrassed for you right now, just admit you quoted a hadeeth from an anti-Shi'a work without knowing it and move on.  We already know you don't know the basics of Islam; so I don't expect you to know a work like al-Sawaa'iq al-Muhriqah.  However, the people you blindly copied and pasted from should be ashamed of themselves