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Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis

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ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2017, 02:20:25 PM »
Again there is no such thing as  a metaphorical Nabi. You even admitted  in your beliefs despite of what saints have said there was no other man in history that was Prophet in a metaphorical sense. In your view even Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jillani did not become this.

I said that there was no saint who can be named as a Nabi apart from that saint who is the Messiah, because the Messiah has a Nass for being named as a Nabi as per the Hadith of Sahih Muslim.

So the Saints, particularly the Siddiqeen and Muhaddatheen, are Prophets in a metaphorical sense, but only the Messiah can be named as Prophet (in a metaphorical sense). This is a very subtle distinction which perhaps you missed and didn't understand.

Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani said:


آنے والے مسیح موعود کا نام جو صحیح مسلم وغیرہ میں زبان مقدس حضرت نبوی ص سے نبی اللہ نکلا ہے وہ انہی مجازی معنوں کے رو سے ہے جو صوفیا‌ء کرام کی کتابوں میں مسلّم اور ایک معمولی محاورہ مکالمات الہیہ کا ہے۔ ورنہ خاتم الانبیاء کے بعد نبی کیسا؟


"In Sahih Muslim, etc., the coming Promised Messiah has been named as "Prophet of Allah" upon the holy tongue of Prophet Muhammad(S). But it is with this metaphorical meaning which is understood from the books of the Sufis, and is an ordinary expression of divine communication [Mukaalamaat-e-Ilaaheeyya] with them. Otherwise, how can there be a Prophet after the Khaatam al-Ambiyaa?" (Anjaam-e-Atham, p.28)


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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2017, 02:26:49 PM »
Can you tell me what a metaphorical/non literal prophet is?


ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2017, 02:35:10 PM »
What is a metaphorical non literal prophet?

It is someone who is a Prophet from a purely linguistic sense but not in the Shari' or technical sense. In the linguistic sense, a Nabi is someone who receives news of the unseen through inspiration (Mutannabi). Similarly, a Rasool is someone who is sent. This broad linguistic definition encompasses many individuals who were technically neither Prophets nor Messengers of Allah. But in the Shari' terminology such a person is called Muhaddath.

In the Quraan al Kareem, Umm-e-Moosaa salaamun alaihaa, Sayyidina Mariyam salaamun alaihaa, and the three 'Mursaleen' mentioned in the Soora Yaa Seen were technically neither Prophets nor Messengers. Perhaps Dhul Qarnayn falls in this category too. As for the three Mursaleen in Soora Yaa Seen, though they are called 'Messengers', most Mufassireen say that they were disciples of Sayyidina Eesaa alaihis salaam, and it is well known that there were no real Prophets or Messengers between Sayyidina Eesaa alaihis salaam and Sayyidina Muhammad Sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Hence they have been called 'Mursaleen' (Messengers that are Sent) in a linguistic and figurative sense and not in the technical or real sense.
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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2017, 02:43:37 PM »
I can understand someone being a messenger in different contexts & linguistically, but how can someone be a prophet only linguistically but not literally a prophet????

ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2017, 03:09:49 PM »
I can understand someone being a messenger in different contexts & linguistically, but how can someone be a prophet only linguistically but not literally a prophet????

Because as I said a Nabi in the linguistic sense means someone who is disclosed with news of the unseen. Therefore, the Muhaddath, someone who is inspired by Allah, is a Nabi in a purely linguistic sense but not literally a Prophet.

Take for example the prophecy of Sayyidina Abi Bakr (Radi Allahu anho) that his slave girl will give birth to a girl and not a boy. The girl was born shortly after Abu Bakr (Radi Allahu anhu) passed away (Sharh Usul Itiqad of Imam Lalikaai)





And if you study the Holy Quraan, you will see that Allah revealed news of the unseen to the Mother of sayyidina Moosaa  that He will return her baby (Moosaa) to her (Sura 28:7)

And He revealed news of the unseen to Virgin Mary that she will give birth to a son (Jesus)

So these two honored ladies were technically not Prophets, but in the linguistic or figurative sense they were Prophetesses because they were inspired from Allah with news of the unseen.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 03:11:20 PM by ZulFiqar »
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ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2017, 04:04:29 PM »
Regarding the Muhaddath, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaani wrote in his Fath al Baari:

قوله : ( قال ابن عباس : من نبي ولا محدث ) أي في قوله تعالى : وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي إلا إذا تمنى الآية ، كأن ابن عباس زاد فيها ولا محدث أخرجه سفيان بن عيينة في أواخر جامعه ، وأخرجه عبد بن حميد من طريقه وإسناده إلى ابن عباس صحيح ، ولفظه عن عمرو بن دينار قال " كان ابن عباس يقرأ : ( وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي ولا محدث ) . والسبب في تخصيص عمر بالذكر لكثرة ما وقع له في زمن النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - من الموافقات التي نزل القرآن مطابقا لها ، ووقع له بعد النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - عدة إصابات .


Ibn Abbas used to recite the Verse of Quraan:
وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رَّسُولٍ وَلاَ نَبِيٍّ إِلاَّ إِذَا تَمَنَّىٰ أَلْقَى ٱلشَّيْطَانُ فِيۤ أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنسَخُ ٱللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي ٱلشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ ٱللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ وَٱللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ
And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke [or recited], Satan threw into it [some misunderstanding]. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise. (Sura 22:52)

as

وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي ولا محدث
"And We did not send before you any Messenger or Prophet or Muhaddath..."

So he included the word "Muhaddath" in the category of those sent by Allah in explanation of this Ayah.

Similarly, it is mentioned in Durr al Manthur of Imam Suyuti:


أخرج عبد بن حميد وابن الأنباري في المصاحف، عن عمرو بن دينار قال: كان ابن عباس رضي الله عنه يقرأ " وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول، ولا نبي ولا محدث ".
وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم، عن سعد بن إبراهيم بن عبد الرحمن بن عوف قال: إن فيما أنزل الله { وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي } [ولا محدث] فنسخت محدث والمحدثون: صاحب يس ولقمان وهو من آل فرعون، وصاحب موسى.


Here it is mentioned that the word "Muhaddath" was abrogated from the recitation of this Ayah, and the examples of Muhaddathoon from the previous nations are the Messengers mentioned in Surah Ya Sin, Luqmaan, and the Companion of Moosaa (Khidr).

Interestingly, in the book Usul al-Kaafi, this recitation وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول، ولا نبي ولا محدث is considered the recitation of Imam Baaqir and the Ahl-al-Bayt:

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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2017, 04:26:49 PM »
We can only confirm someone was or is a prophet, messenger, or messiah if there is an explicit text from the Quran or hadith mentioning them by name right?





ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2017, 04:31:11 PM »
We can only confirm someone was or is a prophet, messenger, or messiah if there is an explicit text from the Quran or hadith mentioning them by name right?

Yes. We can only confirm them as a Literal Prophet or Messenger.
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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2017, 04:57:45 PM »
I did mention messiah too.

So one can only be confirmed as a messiah if mentioned by name in a text from the Quran & authentic hadith right?


ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2017, 05:03:18 PM »
I did mention messiah too.

So one can only be confirmed as a messiah if mentioned by name in a text from the Quran & authentic hadith right?

Messiah is a term which is much more ambiguous when you study the text of Quraan and Sunnah as compared to the terms Nabi and Rasul. The terms Nabi and Rasul are throughout Quraan and Sunnah, but the term Messiah is rarely used and never clearly defined. Therefore I do not want to delve into this question, but in short will say that Ghulam Ahmad's claim to be the Messiah is essentially him saying that he is the resemblance of Jesus Son of Mary and is therefore Messiah in a figurative sense مثيل المسيح
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ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2017, 05:17:20 PM »
Regarding the Virgin Mary (peace be upon her), she was technically not a Prophetess, but because she was disclosed with news of the unseen and visitation by the Angels, she was of the rank of Siddeeqa (from the Siddeeqeen, a category which also includes sayyidina Abi Bakr). Qadi Thana Ullah Panipati, in his Tafsir al-Mazhari, says that she possessed the attributes of Nubuwwah by way of ظلّ (reflection) -  a similar claim made by Ghulam Ahmad that he is a ظلّى نبى ("shadow Prophet"):

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2015/09/hanafisufi-scholar-qadi-thanaullah.html


وَ اِذۡ قَالَتِ الۡمَلٰٓئِکَۃُ یٰمَرۡیَمُ اِنَّ اللّٰہَ اصۡطَفٰکِ وَ طَہَّرَکِ وَ اصۡطَفٰکِ عَلٰی نِسَآءِ الۡعٰلَمِیۡنَ

And when the Angels said to her: “O Mary! Indeed, Allah has chosen you and purified you, and has chosen you above all the women of the worlds.” (3:42)

Qadi Thanaullah Panipati commented on this verse in his classic Tafsir Mazhari:


صوفیہ نے تجلیات ذاتیہ کی تعبیر کمالت نبوّت سے کی ہے جو انبیاء کو باذات بلاواسطہ حاصل ہوتے ہیں اور ذیلی طور پر انبیاء کی وساطت سے صدیقین کو ملتے ہیں۔ حضرت مریم صدیقہ تھیں اللہ نے فرمایا ہے وَ اُمُّہٗ صِدِّیۡقَۃٌ

اس لئے آپ کو کمالت نبوّت حاصل تھے


Translation: The Sufis have interpreted the personal divine manifestations as being the Kamalat-e-Nabuwwat (perfections of Prophethood), which are directly attained to by the Prophets, and attained to by the Siddiqeen through the intermediary of the Prophets by way of reflection. Mary was a Siddiqah as per the saying of Allah “And his mother was a truthful woman” (5:75) because she had within her the Kamalat-e-Nabuwwat (perfections of Prophethood).

Reference: Tafsir Mazhari; v.2 p.160



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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2017, 05:17:38 PM »
So he's not actually, literally speaking, a messiah?

ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2017, 05:28:05 PM »
So he's not actually, literally speaking, a messiah?

Look at his own words:

"This humble one (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) who has claimed to be the resemblance of the Messiah, which people of little understanding imagine to be the Promised Messiah (Jesus)...I absolutely did not claim to be Messiah son of Mary. That person who puts this allegation on me is clearly a liar. Rather, I have been publishing for the last seven or eight years that I am the resemblance of the Messiah (Matheel-e-Maseeh), that is, some of the spiritual peculiarities, habits and characteristics, etc., of Jesus peace be upon him were put in my own Nature (Fitrah) by God Most High." (Ruhani Khaza'in v.3 p.192)

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ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2017, 05:44:56 PM »
Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani said:

لست بنبي ولكن محدث الله وكليم الله لأجدد دين المصطفى

"I am not a Prophet, but rather a Muhaddath of Allah and Kaleem of Allah, to renew the Religion of al-Mustafaa"
(Aina Kamalat-e-Islam, p.383)


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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2017, 06:14:06 PM »
So according to you he was neither a prophet, messenger nor messiah.

So then I do not need to believe in him or follow him to be on the correct path?

ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2017, 06:47:42 PM »
So according to you he was neither a prophet, messenger nor messiah.

So then I do not need to believe in him or follow him to be on the correct path?

Do you need to believe in or follow Shaykh Abdul Qadir al Jilani to be on the correct path? But you can benefit from his teachings and be inspired by his example of piety. There is a Hadith Qudsi that if someone has enmity to one of the Awliya of Allah, Allah will wage war against him!

The Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said there will come a Mujaddid at the beginning of each century. So we should believe in the Hadith and prophecy, not the personality of his own essence, who we acknowledge on the basis of the Hadith and prophecy.
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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2017, 07:05:02 PM »
A mujadid would at least be able speak arabic correctly?

ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2017, 07:23:00 PM »
A mujadid would at least be able speak arabic correctly?

You're grasping for straws brother. A true believer can see the Light and blessings of a Wali, but those that are spiritually blind will always find some reason to hurl blame and make objections, no matter how lame and pitiable it is.
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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2017, 07:56:44 PM »
I notice you've switched from your normal intellectual/scientific proofs to a plea for just blind faith now.


ZulFiqar

Re: Difference Between Qadianis and Lahori Ahmadis
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2017, 08:00:27 PM »
I notice you've switched from your normal intellectual/scientific proofs to a plea for just blind faith now.

I'm not asking for blind faith at all. But people who are blind no matter how many signs and evidences you show them it's of no use. This theme is repeated throughout the Quraan. Look how many proofs and signs in favor of Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) clearer than daylight, but yet the people afflicted with blindness cannot perceive the Truth. The objections you make against Ghulam Ahmad that he could not pronounce certain letters of the Arabic language correctly are just lame and silly objections. You resemble the Mushrikeen who used to make such lame and silly objections to the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu alaihi wasallam) and all other Prophets.
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