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God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad

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A person asked Imam Muhammad at-Taqi (p): Tell me about the Lord, the Hallowed, the Exalted, whose names and attributes have been mentioned in His Noble Quran. Are these names and Attributes He Himself?
Imam Muhammad at-Taqi (p): Your question has two aspects. If you mean that His names and attributes are in themselves His Supreme Self, you are attributing plurality and multiplicity to God. He is far above that. But if you mean that these names and attributes have eternal existence then the word eternal shall also have two meanings. First, if you mean that these names and attributes have eternally been in the knowledge of God and He has eternally deserved them, then your conception is right. But if you mean that (in their literal sense) the image, the pronunciation and the spelling of these names and attributes have eternally existed, then may God save us from the notion that there had eternally been any other thing along with God. God existed when there was no creation. God created these names and attributes to be a medium between Himself and His creation. Through these names and attributes they could supplicate before Him and worship Him. And this is the remembrance of God. God existed when there was no remembrance. The object of remembrance is God, the Eternal and eternally existing. But His names and attributes are created and the meaning of these names and attributes is the same as God, and the notion of incongruity and of union (between His self, names and attributes) is not in keeping with His elegance because incongruity and union are found in things compound and divisible. It can neither be said that God is compound nor less nor more and He is eternal in His essence. Everything else is divisible and compound but God is one and indivisible. The notions of �more� and �less� are not applicable to Him. Everything that is divisible or to which �more or less� can be attributed is essentially a created being providing a proof (of the existence) of its Creator...

 

So we see that the expression

God is his names and attributes can have two wrong meanings:

1. That they themselves are God (wrong).

2. That the words themselves existed with God and formed part of God (that is wrong as well).

Then there is a meaning that is right.

The meaning of that these names exist in the knowledge of God in the sense that he knows they point to Him, then this meaning is right.

 

So we see Imam Jewad [as] lived in a time when people expressed "God is Names and Attributes" with different intentions. The sense that God is formed of multiplicity, that he has various attributes and divisions with himself that differ with one another, is against Tawheed.

The notion that the names themselves are God is also wrong. The only notion that is correct is the meaning of the names is God himself without division. They all point to One and the same glory.

 

The names and attributes were created as a means between himself and God and the meaning is God. The named in the names are God himself. The names are however created, despite the meaning itself being God.

This also shows "Quran" being eternal can only be true in the sense that it manifests eternal glory. In the sense that anything exists with God including the Quran, than Imam Jewad teaches us to seek refuge from such a saying.

And this makes sense, because Quran contains "names" that in the words of Imam Jewad [as] was created as a means between God and creation. The pronunciation of these names for example didn't always exist neither their realities as connections to God, but rather the meaning of the names always existed and only in that sense is God is his names.

 

Another way to see a misconception is explained by Imam Jaffar [as]:

An atheist: Do you say that God is All-Hearing and All-Seeing?
Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as): God is All-Hearing and All-Seeing but He hears without any organic mechanism and sees without any instrument. He hears and sees by His Supreme Self. When I say �His Supreme Self� I do not mean that He is one thing and His �Supreme Self� is something else. But I wanted to explain what I knew because I had been asked and wanted to explain it to you since you had asked. If I say �He hears with the wholeness of His Being� this does not mean that His whole has any parts, as whole according to our concept is made up of parts. But I wanted to make you understand and to interpret my knowledge. But in this matter to which I refer, there is nothing except that He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, All-Knowing and All-Aware without diversity in His essence or in the meaning of His Supreme Self
 

Imam Jaffar [as] was on alert of how each of his statements can be misinterpreted and not seen in reality for what he was saying.

Another way is to misunderstand the issue of Tashbih, for example, God is one and individual is one, so don't we resemble God? God is living and we are living, so do we resemble God?

 

Imam Ali ar-Reza (p), in the presence of some people, said: He (God) is the Subtle, All-Aware, All-Hearing, All-Seeing, the One, the Single, the Absolutely Independent, He begetteth not, nor is He begotten and there is none like unto Him. If God were such as the anthropomorphists have thought, then neither the Creator can be distinguished from the created, nor the Originator from the originated. But He is the Originator and distinction between Him and the things to which He has given body and form and which He originated is a must, since there is nothing like Him nor is He like anything.
One of the audience: You have called Him One, the Independent and you also said that nothing resembles Him. But God is one and an individual is one. Is it not a resemblance in Oneness?
Imam Ali ar-Reza (p): Not at all. May God keep you steadfast. Resemblance relates to essence (not in names). As for the names, every object is one and the names signify the objects that bear those names. When we talk of an individual as �one� we mean that the individual is one body and not two because he is made up of several limbs and colours. And what is composed of different parts cannot be regarded as one. He consists of separate parts, diverse and divisible. His blood is not his flesh and his flesh is not his blood. His nervous system is different from his veins (and arteries) and his hair is not his skin. His blackness is different from his whiteness. The same holds good for the other creations. Therefore, person is one in name and not in essence. God, Exalted be His Majesty, is One and Unique and none else is One and Unique. There is no incongruity and diversion in Him nor is there any excess or deficit. But person is a creation composed of different parts and essences and primary elements, and in this state of composition is regarded as one....

 
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

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Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2016, 06:35:15 PM »


Imam Ali is reported to have said:

O' Allah) I stand witness that he who likens Thee with the separateness of the limbs or with the joining of the extremities of his body did not acquaint his inner self with knowledge about Thee, and his heart did not secure conviction to the effect that there is no partner for Thee. It is as though he has no heard the (wrongful) followers disclaiming their false gods by sayings "By Allah, we were certainly in manifest error when we equalled you with the Lord of the worlds." (Qur'an, 26:97-98). They are wrong who liken Thee to their idols, and dress Thee with apparel of the creatures by their imagination, attribute to Thee parts of body by their own thinking and consider Thee after the creatures of various types, through the working of their intelligence. I stand witness that whoever equated Thee with anything out of Thy creation took a match for Thee, and whoever takes a match for Thee is an unbeliever, according to what is stated in Thy unambiguous verses and indicated by the evidence of Thy clear arguments. (I also stand witness that) Thou art that Allah who cannot be confined in (the fetters of) intelligence so as to admit change of condition by entering its imagination nor in the shackles of mind so as to become limited and an object of alterations.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2016, 06:40:49 PM »
OP hadith is weak.

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Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 06:50:14 PM »

Another thing to keep in mind, is testifying to God's unity needs understanding and insight. It needs to understand that nothing can co-exist with God in his highness and his highness transcends all that is created and has nothing with it there. Those who attribute God body parts although they think they believe God is One and testify to One God are putting parts on level on par with God and putting "food" "hands" "face" "eyes" "ears" on the level on the ultimate high such that co-exist with him and form part of him.

This is undoubtedly Shirk no matter what excuse people try to make. This type of understanding of Tawheed is undoubtedly without real conviction of Tawheed or it's insincerity to it, it's testifying to it while denying it's foundations and implications.

The Imams lived during times when people believed all sorts of things that go against Tawheed. We see this continues today.

The reasoning showed in these hadith show eloquence of Imams  on this subject. It simplifies the issue and manifests how clear it is.

O' Allah) I stand witness that he who likens Thee with the separateness of the limbs or with the joining of the extremities of his body did not acquaint his inner self with knowledge about Thee, and his heart did not secure conviction to the effect that there is no partner for Thee. It is as though he has no heard the (wrongful) followers disclaiming their false gods by sayings "By Allah, we were certainly in manifest error when we equalled you with the Lord of the worlds." (Qur'an, 26:97-98). They are wrong who liken Thee to their idols, and dress Thee with apparel of the creatures by their imagination, attribute to Thee parts of body by their own thinking and consider Thee after the creatures of various types, through the working of their intelligence. I stand witness that whoever equated Thee with anything out of Thy creation took a match for Thee, and whoever takes a match for Thee is an unbeliever, according to what is stated in Thy unambiguous verses and indicated by the evidence of Thy clear arguments. (I also stand witness that) Thou art that Allah who cannot be confined in (the fetters of) intelligence so as to admit change of condition by entering its imagination nor in the shackles of mind so as to become limited and an object of alterations. - attributed to Imam Ali.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 07:38:04 PM »
Link, I see that you are an active Rafidhi in this forum, would you care to take a look at this link:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/i-want-a-fellow-rafidhi-to-debate-me-about-the-prohibition-of-rabbit-meat/

Thank you.

السلام عليكم
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

Student of Comparative Religion - Refuter of allegations made against Islam by Christians and Atheists.

Hani

Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2016, 10:37:17 PM »
I find the above Mutazili phylosophicsl views attributed to the Imams to be legitimate and acceptable. I accept the multitude of ideas our predecessors had whether Ashari, Mutazili or Athari However, I seriously doubt Ali or his children uttered any of the above, these were some thinkers who attributed their views to AhlilBayt to give them legitimacy, sanctity and make them spread more easily.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2016, 11:00:32 PM »


This also shows "Quran" being eternal can only be true in the sense that it manifests eternal glory. In the sense that anything exists with God including the Quran, than Imam Jewad teaches us to seek refuge from such a saying.

And this makes sense, because Quran contains "names" that in the words of Imam Jewad [as] was created as a means between God and creation. The pronunciation of these names for example didn't always exist neither their realities as connections to God, but rather the meaning of the names always existed and only in that sense is God is his names.

 
I agree with the Mutazilla that the Quran is created, but the 12er Shia only got this view after being influenced by the Mutazilla.
If your conclusions from the Imams were well known how come Shaykh Saduq and Mullah Majalisi did not reference these narrations?In fact, Shaykh Saduq insulted the Imam but quoting them to claim that it is no use to debate whether the Quran is created or uncreated.


دثنا أبي رحمه الله، قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، قال: حدثنا محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد اليقطيني، قال: كتب علي بن محمد بن علي بن موسى الرضا عليهم السلام إلى بعض شيعته ببغداد: بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم عصمنا الله وإياك من الفتنة فإن يفعل فقد أعظم بها نعمة وإن لا يفعل فهي الهلكة، نحن نرى أن الجدال في القرآن بدعة، اشترك فيها السائل والمجيب، فيتعاطى السائل ما ليس له، ويتكلف المجيب ما ليس عليه، وليس الخالق إلا الله عز وجل، وما سواه مخلوق، والقرآن كلام الله، لا تجعل له اسما من عندك فتكون من الضالين، جعلنا الله وإياك من الذين يخشون ربهم بالغيب وهم من الساعة مشفقون. He said: “`Alee bin Muhammad bin `Alee bin Moosa Al-RiDaa (عليه السلام) wrote to some of his shee`ahs in Baghdad: ‘In the name of Allaah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful, May Allaah protect us and you from this fitnah, and if He does, then it is a great blessing, and if He does not then it is a disaster. Our view is that the argument (discussion) about the Qur’aan is bid`ah, (both) the questioner and the answerer share (in responsibility). The questioner gets into (something) he should not, and the answerer is constrained into what is not (true). There is no creator except Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ), and what is the same is the created. The Qur’aan is the speech (kalaam) of Allaah. Do not make a name from yourself, or you will be astray (Daaleen). May Allaah make us and make you from those who fear their lord and those who are apprehensive of the Hour (Day of Judgement)” Source: 1. Al-Sadooq, Al-TawHeed, pg. 224, hadeeth # 4)

Here are narrations where they say its uncreated.

I asked Aba Ja'far (as) about the Quran. He said to me: "It is not creator (Khaliq) nor has been created (Makhluq) but it is the word of The Creator (al-Khaliq)."
عن زرارة قال سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) عن القرآن؟ فقال لى: لا خالق ولا مخلوق ولكنه كلام الخالق
- Tafsir al-Ayyashi, Vol.1, Page 6-7
- Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.89, Page 120

From al-Ja'fari who said to Abi al-Hassan Musa (as), oh son of Messenger of Allah what do you say about the Quran: Has differed those who were before us, the people/nation (qawm) said:  That it has been created, and another people/nation said: it is uncreated (ghayr makhluq), so he (as) said: I am not saying about this what they said, but I say: It is the word of Allah The Almighty.
5 يد ( 4 ) لى : المكتب ، عن الاسدي ، عن البرمكي ، عن عبدالله بن أحمد ، عن الجعفري قال : قلت لابي الحسن موسى عليه السلام : يا ابن رسول الله ما تقول في القرآن : فقد اختلف فيه من قبلنا فقال قوم : إنه مخلوق ، وقال قوم : إنه غير مخلوق ، فقال عليه السلام : أما إني لا أقول في ذلك ما يقولون ، ولكني أقول : إنه كلام الله عزوجل ( 5 ) .
- Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.89, Page 118

From Fudhail Ibn Yassar, I asked al-Redha (as) about the Quran so he said to me, It is the word of Allah.
7 شى : عن فضيل بن يسار قال : سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن القرآن فقال لي : هو كلام الله ( 6 ) .
- Tafsir al-Ayyashi, Vol.1, Page 6
- Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.89, Page 120
From Yasser al-Khadim, from al-Redha (as) that he has been asked about the Quran so he said: Allah curse al-Murji-ah, and Allah curse Abu Hanifa, the word of Allah is not created (Makhluq) in terms of what I have spoken, and in terms of what I have read and pronounced so it is word, news and stories.
 عن ياسر الخادم عن الرضا عليه السلام انه سئل عن القرآن؟ فقال: لعن الله المرجئة (2) ولعن الله أبا حنيفة (3) انه كلام الله غير مخلوق حيث ما تكلمت به، وحيث ما قرأت ونطقت فهو كلام وخبر وقصص (4).
- Tafsir al-Ayyashi, Vol.1, Page 8
- Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.89, Page 120
From Ali Ibn Salem, from his father, I asked al-Sadiq (as) so I said to him: oh son of the Messenger of Allah, what do you say about the Quran ? So he said: It is the words of Allah, and the sayings of Allah, and the book of Allah, and the revelation of Allah and his oracle and it is the great book that falsehood cannot approach it from before it or from behind it; [it is] a revelation from a [Lord who is] Wise and Praiseworthy.
3 يد ( 6 ) لى : المكتب ، عن الاسدي ، عن البرمكي ، عن عبدالله بن أحمد بن داهر ، عن الفضل بن إسماعيل ، عن علي بن سالم ، عن أبيه قال : سألت الصادق عليه السلام فقلت له : يا ابن رسول الله ما تقول في القرآن ؟ فقال : هو كلام الله ، وقول الله ، وكتاب الله ، ووحي الله ، وتنزيله ، وهو الكتاب العزيز الذي لا يأتيه الباطل من بين يديه ولا من خلفه تنزيل من حكيم حميد ( 1 ) .
- Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.89, Page 117-118
From the chapter of Bihar al-Anwar chapter that the quran is created (Makhluq) باب 14 : أن القرآن مخلوق and Tafsir al-Ayyashi chapter on the merit of the Quran.

Hani

Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2016, 11:39:25 PM »
∆ which proves my obvious point. Shia thinkers as well as those hiding under the cloak of Tashayyu were making up opinions and attributing them to AhlulBayt.

Shia today take whatever seems nice, without any rule or principal, if it sounds cool then the Imams must have said it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: God is and is not his names - angled statements and Imam Jewad
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 02:34:04 AM »
∆ which proves my obvious point. Shia thinkers as well as those hiding under the cloak of Tashayyu were making up opinions and attributing them to AhlulBayt.

Shia today take whatever seems nice, without any rule or principal, if it sounds cool then the Imams must have said it.

Yes, Shaykh Mufid and Sharif Murtaza studied under the Mutazilla. Even Sharif Razi had non-Rafidi teachers.  So if they had these narrations, they would not need to rely under the Mutazilla to train them.
Also, Shaykh Saduq himself made some modifications in Kalam as pointed out before on tashayyu.org

The same case applies with the Zaidia.

 

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