TwelverShia.net Forum

Your ruqya experience.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

iceman

Re: Your ruqya experience.
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2019, 02:55:59 PM »
Fine, Umar (ra) actually did it, that is, he prevented the will from being dictated.  In that case, you must admit that one fallible (Umar) was able to subdue the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra).

Exactly my point!  In the absence of this will, prescription or document, how can you guarantee your own salvation?  How can you ascertain that even those present, including Imam Ali (ra), did not deviate?

Hint: this post is specifically designed to show you (though I doubt it will register in your head) that if we go by your claims, you are only undoing your own beliefs.  Continue reading!

Out of gas?  Take your time-out!  We are not talking about previous nations; we are talking about those present in the room.  You claimed over and over again that this prescription was for them and present among them was Imam Ali (ra).

As for nations of the past deviating, the message was completed with the coming of the Holy Prophet (saw) and the final message was delivered to his Ummah so bringing up nations of the past is like a comparison of apples and oranges

The Holy Prophet (saw) had three days after this incident to narrate what he intended to have dictated.  He did not!  Also, Imam Ali (ra) did not facilitate this request, neither on Thursday nor in the three days thereafter.

According to Islamic beliefs, a Prophet (asws) is an infallible being; infallible in delivering the message but prone to all the illnesses and evil that afflicts any man.  The Shi'i concept of Imamah, on the other hand, confers absolute infallibility upon certain individuals who are in control of the atoms and universe.  When individuals with such alleged superpowers are subdued, one cannot help but use the word "overpower". 

To guide someone, you must make your message known.  In the case of this event, Imam Ali (ra) did not speak a word, let alone move a muscle.  Furthermore, I did not know that you consider an Imam's (ra) guidance contingent upon the will of people.  If I may recall, you are not a big fan of Saqeefah where it was the will of the believers for Abu Bakr (ra) to become the Caliph.

Where it suits you, it is the will of the people (to explain away your Imam's helplessness or lack of corrective course of action).  Otherwise, it is all "Divinely Ordained".  Pathetic!

I am willing to accept that this was Shaykh Mufid's opinion, contrary to mainstream Shi'i belief.  The problem is not just his opinion; the bigger problem is the need to ascertain the message of the prescription in such a haste that it undoes other core Shi'i beliefs.

So was Imam Ali (ra)!  He did not oppose Umar's (ra) decision.  At best, he was neutral so it is funny to see you, and the rest of Shias, take a stance when your first "infallible" Imam (ra) adopted the role of a spectator.

The verse of Tat'heer was for the Wives (ra) of the Prophet (saw), the incident of blanket (in reaction to the revelation of verse of Tat'heer) is no proof of infallibility and the incident of Mubahala has no relation to infallibility.

If you still insist on this point, you have to declare the infallibility of the Mothers of Believers (ra) as well.

You have only given us further insight of what an idiot you are!  If you want to conflate that with answering my points, suit yourself!

"Fine, Umar (ra) actually did it, that is, he prevented the will from being dictated"

It wasn't ONE FALLIBLE UMAR. It wasn't about just one person. Certain people sided with Umar and a division was caused. Enough sided with him to cause two groups. One group suggested and pushed for pen and paper to be given and the Prophet s.a.w should be allowed to fulfill what he thinks is necessary and important. The other group opposed this and suggested otherwise. This turned into an argument then a row where voices were raised. So this isn't something small. Nor did it remain quiet and calm.

"In that case, you must admit that one fallible (Umar) was able to subdue the Seal of the Prophets (saw) and your first "infallible" Imam (ra)"

Based on this theory of yours you must also admit that a simple individual like Iblees has got the better of Allah and all the Prophets. He has been able to lead people astray while Allah is standing and watching him do it. Also the Jews got better of Allah by killing Prophets that came with clear signs to them. I can give you many more examples but this theory of yours is getting ridiculous. You need to move on.

"Exactly my point!  In the absence of this will, prescription or document, how can you guarantee your own salvation?  How can you ascertain that even those present, including Imam Ali (ra), did not deviate?"

I mentioned to you about Ali. You have the verses of Tat'heer and the incident of the blanket and the verses of Mubahila and the incident of it. If you still doubt about Ali then you are opposing the Qur'an. Ali is purified to the state of pureification and the Qur'an is a witness to this. You still want to use this as a base for cross argument then carry on challenging the Qur'an. There is no match to Ali when we consider the companions.

"We are not talking about previous nations"

You keep banging on that certain individuals got the better of Muhammad s.a.w and our infallible Imams by preventing Muhammad s.a.w from writing a important document. I just mentioned the Jewish nation got the better of Allah and many Prophets by killing them one after the other when they brought clear signs. Just pointing out the serious flaws within your theory.

"The Holy Prophet (saw) had three days after this incident to narrate what he intended to have dictated.  He did not!  Also, Imam Ali (ra) did not facilitate this request, neither on Thursday nor in the three days thereafter"

Do you think that in the absence of those individuals if anything was written, they would accept and acknowledge it. They didn’t want to know when it was brought up in front of them. And it was for them. When they showed no interest then what was the need for it. They didn’t want to know. When they opposed and challenged it their  intentions became clear. Well the Prophet s.a.w already noticed this that's why he ordered for a pen and paper because he knew what was brewing. When he asked for pen and paper to be brought to him pbuh it all came out and clear.

"According to Islamic beliefs, a Prophet (asws) is an infallible being; infallible in delivering the message but prone to all the illnesses and evil that afflicts any man"

muslim720

Re: Your ruqya experience.
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2019, 03:23:26 PM »
It wasn't ONE FALLIBLE UMAR. It wasn't about just one person. Certain people sided with Umar and a division was caused.

Give me power over atoms and the universe and I will show you how easily I can subdue "certain people" hell-bent upon injustice even if there are hundreds of thousands them.

Quote
Enough sided with him to cause two groups. One group suggested and pushed for pen and paper to be given and the Prophet s.a.w should be allowed to fulfill what he thinks is necessary and important. The other group opposed this and suggested otherwise. This turned into an argument then a row where voices were raised. So this isn't something small. Nor did it remain quiet and calm.

In the midst of all of this, we know that Imam Ali (ra) stayed quiet.  Maybe he sided with Umar (ra), maybe he did not!  However, we are sure he was a spectator and did not apply any corrective course of action.  So it baffles me to see Shias employ "better judgment" than their own first "infallible" Imam (ra).

Quote
Based on this theory of yours you must also admit that a simple individual like Iblees has got the better of Allah and all the Prophets.

Iblees has no power over us except when we allow him to get to us through our nafs and he has been given this opportunity till Judgment Day.  What you cannot account for is that when (allegedly) Iblees was at play, Imam Ali (ra) - having control over atoms and the universe - did not even find it in himself to utter a word (either in favor of having the will written down or not).

Quote
Also the Jews got better of Allah by killing Prophets that came with clear signs to them.

Already explained!

Quote
I mentioned to you about Ali. You have the verses of Tat'heer and the incident of the blanket and the verses of Mubahila and the incident of it.

You mentioned them but with no avail.  They do not confer any infallibility over anyone.

Quote
Ali is purified to the state of pureification and the Qur'an is a witness to this.

How can his purification be testified in the Qur'an when his Imamah cannot be substantiated from the same Qur'an, lol?  You have your priorities in disorder.

Quote
Do you think that in the absence of those individuals if anything was written, they would accept and acknowledge it.

I am seriously not interested in your extended speculations when you cannot account for your initial ones.

Quote
They didn’t want to know when it was brought up in front of them. And it was for them. When they showed no interest then what was the need for it.

Majority of people in Arabia did not want to know Islam when it was brought up to them.  It was for them.  When they showed no interest, the Holy Prophet (saw) did not give up.  He did not say "what is the need for it when they are not showing any interest"!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 03:24:39 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

sid

Re: Your ruqya experience.
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2019, 11:58:27 PM »
What Umar was saying he was saying with full intention. He knew what the Prophet s.a.w was going to write. That's why he prevented it by objecting and causing a fuss. You carry on coming out with what ever excuse you can find. 😊😊😊

Surah Nur verse 54 "Obey Allah and his Prophet and if you dispute, then on him is what is imposed on him, and on you is what is imposed on you; and if you obey him you are guided aright; and there is no duty on the Prophet save the clear delivery".

Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 32 Say, "Obey Allah and the Prophet, but if they turn back, then verily Allah does not love the disbelievers"

Surah Anfal verse 20: "O ye who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak)."

The Prophet (s) wanted to compose a will

We learn from the traditions that towards the end of his noble life, the Prophet's (s) condition was deteriorating. The majority opinion holds that the Prophet (s) left no will before his death, and made no attempt to do so. However, according to the Qur'an it is absolutely obligatory on all Muslims to leave a will. Allah (swt) says in his Glorious Book:

"It is prescribed for you when death approaches one of you, if he leaves behind any goods that he makes a bequest for Parents and (the nearest kinsmen) in goodness, this is a duty upon the pious" (The Qur'an 2:180)).

We may thus ask the question: Would the Prophet of Allah (s) of all Muslims - the one whose Sunnah we are obliged to follow - disregard an order stipulated in the Holy Qur'an?

The instruction is refused

This is a highly significant event that occurred towards the end of the Prophet's life. The Prophet (s) wanted to write a document, which was so momentous that people would never go astray. Clearly, the Prophet's explicit words "you will never go astray", illustrate the critical nature of the Prophet's command and prove that what the Prophet intended to write related to the matter of delivering the message and religious guidance of the people. It is only logical to accept that at this critical stage when the Prophet (s) was near to the time when he would depart from this world, he took the opportunity to write his will as per the command of Allah in the Qur'an in which he could issue final instructions to the Muslim Ummah. However, one group led by Hadhrath Umar felt that this momentous order of the Prophet should be disregarded, while the other group stated that the Prophet's (s) order should be obeyed.

First of all,what the hell is even wrong with you,why are you bringing an uncessacry discussion into my thread??? Like couldnt you make your own thread for your stuff? This is for ruqua experiences not what youre putting out. Now sincerely get lost!

sid

Re: Your ruqya experience.
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2019, 12:00:38 AM »
Umar (ra) prevented the Holy Prophet (saw) from writing his will and completing his mission and he also subdued Imam Ali (ra) rendering him incapable to fulfill the request of the Holy Prophet (saw).  However, the Shias will vociferously claim that the Holy Prophet (saw) and Imam Ali (ra) were aided by Allah (swt) and braver than Umar (ra).  #ShiaLogic
Why the heck are you talking about something else on my forum??cant you start your own thread? Seriously this fof ruqya,tell me something why disrespect my thread like this?? Do you even have any bsic manners? Get lost !!!

sid

Re: Your ruqya experience.
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2019, 07:13:04 AM »
Salam on this forum,someone recommended me a ruqya place that i thought i had gone to before but i was wrong. Please forgive me. JazakAllah

muslim720

Re: Your ruqya experience.
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2019, 02:16:50 PM »
Why the heck are you talking about something else on my forum??cant you start your own thread? Seriously this fof ruqya,tell me something why disrespect my thread like this?? Do you even have any bsic manners? Get lost !!!

Sister, I did not disrespect your thread.  Iceman derailed it. 

As for your ruqya experience and your other problems in life, I think we all have given you fruitful advice and you keep coming up with things that make it hard for us to treat you any more seriously than a troll.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
7 Replies
2181 Views
Last post November 25, 2016, 07:34:02 PM
by ummahboard.com