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[Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?

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fgss

Assalam o Alaikum all forum users.

When this word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah was used first in history? What is it's origin?
If any body have knowledge about this plz guide me with reference and online source if possible?


Jazak Allahu Khairan
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Farid

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2016, 05:35:37 PM »
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

The earliest person to have used this term seems to be Ibn Sireen. See hadith #27 here:

http://sunnah.com/muslim/introduction

fgss

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2016, 08:45:03 AM »
Thank you farid.

I already know about this narration of Muslim, but i was looking for something else on this. which i founded here.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/the-term-'ahle-sunnah-wal-jamah'/
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Ibn Yahya

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2016, 02:27:41 AM »
The prophet asked us to follow the Sunnah and he asked us to follow the Jama'ah. Theres your answer

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 08:31:47 PM »
The prophet asked us to follow the Sunnah and he asked us to follow the Jama'ah. Theres your answer

when did he do this? There is no hadith in Sahih-e-Sitta that says follow Quran and my Sunnah.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 02:37:24 AM »
The prophet asked us to follow the Sunnah and he asked us to follow the Jama'ah. Theres your answer

when did he do this? There is no hadith in Sahih-e-Sitta that says follow Quran and my Sunnah.
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.

.....He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4607; Grading: Sahih]
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/12

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 03:34:04 AM »
The prophet asked us to follow the Sunnah and he asked us to follow the Jama'ah. Theres your answer

when did he do this? There is no hadith in Sahih-e-Sitta that says follow Quran and my Sunnah.
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.

.....He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4607; Grading: Sahih]
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/12

Following the sunnah as a general rule and saying "I am leaving behind the Quran and Sunnah" are completely different.

Sabih

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2016, 12:41:53 PM »
The prophet asked us to follow the Sunnah and he asked us to follow the Jama'ah. Theres your answer

when did he do this? There is no hadith in Sahih-e-Sitta that says follow Quran and my Sunnah.
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.

.....He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4607; Grading: Sahih]
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/12

Following the sunnah as a general rule and saying "I am leaving behind the Quran and Sunnah" are completely different.

I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people. Masnud, Hadith no. 19774

It is written in Masnud and if this is rightly quoted, what is our status of believe?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 01:39:19 PM »
The prophet asked us to follow the Sunnah and he asked us to follow the Jama'ah. Theres your answer

when did he do this? There is no hadith in Sahih-e-Sitta that says follow Quran and my Sunnah.
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.

.....He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error. [Sunan Abi Dawud 4607; Grading: Sahih]
http://sunnah.com/abudawud/42/12

Following the sunnah as a general rule and saying "I am leaving behind the Quran and Sunnah" are completely different.
Follow Sunnah is a clear and explicit command of Prophet(saws). Nothing to disagree. Hence you have people following Sunnah, that is Ahlus-sunnah

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2016, 04:37:24 PM »
Follow Sunnah is a clear and explicit command of Prophet(saws). Nothing to disagree. Hence you have people following Sunnah, that is Ahlus-sunnah

I am not denying that it is incumbent on all Muslims to follow the Sunnah. However, the fake hadith quoted by most Sunnis that the Prophet told us to follow Quran and Sunnah is wrong. Hadith-e-thaqalayn is Quran and AhlulBayt.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2016, 04:13:25 AM »
Follow Sunnah is a clear and explicit command of Prophet(saws). Nothing to disagree. Hence you have people following Sunnah, that is Ahlus-sunnah

I am not denying that it is incumbent on all Muslims to follow the Sunnah. However, the fake hadith quoted by most Sunnis that the Prophet told us to follow Quran and Sunnah is wrong. Hadith-e-thaqalayn is Quran and AhlulBayt.

In my response I mentioned this:
Quote
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.
Hence i answered in regards to that, but you are exactly the way brother Muslim720 described you.
As for authentic version of thaqalayn, it doesnt mention anything about following Ahlulbayt, rather its regarding taking care of all those family members of Prophet(saws), upon whom acceptance of charity was forbidden.

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2016, 04:23:45 AM »
Follow Sunnah is a clear and explicit command of Prophet(saws). Nothing to disagree. Hence you have people following Sunnah, that is Ahlus-sunnah

I am not denying that it is incumbent on all Muslims to follow the Sunnah. However, the fake hadith quoted by most Sunnis that the Prophet told us to follow Quran and Sunnah is wrong. Hadith-e-thaqalayn is Quran and AhlulBayt.

In my response I mentioned this:
Quote
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.
Hence i answered in regards to that, but you are exactly the way brother Muslim720 described you.
As for authentic version of thaqalayn, it doesnt mention anything about following Ahlulbayt, rather its regarding taking care of all those family members of Prophet(saws), upon whom acceptance of charity was forbidden.
Thaqalayn= leaving behind Quran and AhlulBayt
Quran and Sunnah - looking for any hadith that states that the Prophet said he is leaving behind those two

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2016, 04:37:21 AM »
Follow Sunnah is a clear and explicit command of Prophet(saws). Nothing to disagree. Hence you have people following Sunnah, that is Ahlus-sunnah

I am not denying that it is incumbent on all Muslims to follow the Sunnah. However, the fake hadith quoted by most Sunnis that the Prophet told us to follow Quran and Sunnah is wrong. Hadith-e-thaqalayn is Quran and AhlulBayt.

In my response I mentioned this:
Quote
The brother mentioned Sunnah not Quran and Sunnah.
Hence i answered in regards to that, but you are exactly the way brother Muslim720 described you.
As for authentic version of thaqalayn, it doesnt mention anything about following Ahlulbayt, rather its regarding taking care of all those family members of Prophet(saws), upon whom acceptance of charity was forbidden.
Thaqalayn= leaving behind Quran and AhlulBayt
Quran and Sunnah - looking for any hadith that states that the Prophet said he is leaving behind those two
Thalqayan= Quran to follow for Guidance. Ahlulbayt to take care of those family members of Prophet(saws) after him, upon whom acceptance of Charity was forbidden.

As for Quran and Sunnah Hadeeth, no need to look for it. Because Quran itself proves we need to follow Sunnah. And also other reports directly commanding to follow Sunnah.


ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2016, 05:27:17 PM »
Thalqayan= Quran to follow for Guidance. Ahlulbayt to take care of those family members of Prophet(saws) after him, upon whom acceptance of Charity was forbidden.

As for Quran and Sunnah Hadeeth, no need to look for it. Because Quran itself proves we need to follow Sunnah. And also other reports directly commanding to follow Sunnah.

not denying the need to follow sunnah. The question is whether the Sunnah of Muhammad (saw) is coming to you via others or AhlulBayt.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2016, 10:47:50 PM »
Thalqayan= Quran to follow for Guidance. Ahlulbayt to take care of those family members of Prophet(saws) after him, upon whom acceptance of Charity was forbidden.

As for Quran and Sunnah Hadeeth, no need to look for it. Because Quran itself proves we need to follow Sunnah. And also other reports directly commanding to follow Sunnah.

not denying the need to follow sunnah. The question is whether the Sunnah of Muhammad (saw) is coming to you via others or AhlulBayt.

This comments shows how ignorant pathetic Shias are.  The main source of Sunnah is Muhammad(saws) and Sahaba were the one who conveyed this knowledge to later people. They were the narrators. Just like the narrators of Shia Imams such as Zurarah etc. You got the Sunnah via them. Due to this ignorance and stupidity, SHias have deviated from the correct Islamic path.

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2016, 11:09:12 PM »
This comments shows how ignorant pathetic Shias are.  The main source of Sunnah is Muhammad(saws) and Sahaba were the one who conveyed this knowledge to later people. They were the narrators. Just like the narrators of Shia Imams such as Zurarah etc. You got the Sunnah via them. Due to this ignorance and stupidity, SHias have deviated from the correct Islamic path.
As long as we are in agreement that your sunnah comes from the Sahaba and ours comes from the AhlulBayt. Just curious why no sahaba were taken to Mubahila.

I suppose in true sahaba tradition Muslims are destined to fight with each other.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2016, 11:33:01 PM »
This comments shows how ignorant pathetic Shias are.  The main source of Sunnah is Muhammad(saws) and Sahaba were the one who conveyed this knowledge to later people. They were the narrators. Just like the narrators of Shia Imams such as Zurarah etc. You got the Sunnah via them. Due to this ignorance and stupidity, SHias have deviated from the correct Islamic path.
As long as we are in agreement that your sunnah comes from the Sahaba and ours comes from the AhlulBayt. Just curious why no sahaba were taken to Mubahila.

I suppose in true sahaba tradition Muslims are destined to fight with each other.

You have not understood the issues properly. Thats why you are upon a deviant path.

Main source of Sunnah is Prophet(saws). You claim to get it through Ahlulbayt who neither saw Prophet(saws) nor where born after his time. We got it from people who saw Prophet(saws) and lived their lives with him.

The point which should make you realize the problem is comparing the Sunnah reported via Ahlulbayt in Sunni books, compared to your books. You will find it in conflicting. And ironically you claim your Imams were under taqiyyah during their lives, which technically makes their reports unreliable, unless supported by a source which was from a time without Taqiyyah.

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2016, 12:02:31 AM »
You have not understood the issues properly. Thats why you are upon a deviant path.

Main source of Sunnah is Prophet(saws). You claim to get it through Ahlulbayt who neither saw Prophet(saws) nor where born after his time. We got it from people who saw Prophet(saws) and lived their lives with him.

The point which should make you realize the problem is comparing the Sunnah reported via Ahlulbayt in Sunni books, compared to your books. You will find it in conflicting. And ironically you claim your Imams were under taqiyyah during their lives, which technically makes their reports unreliable, unless supported by a source which was from a time without Taqiyyah.

Hmmm, so Prophet --> Ali Al-Murtaza --> Hasan Al-Mujtaba --> Hussain As-Shaheed.... are not direct from the Prophet???

I get  your point however what I dont get is your blind trust in the sahaba, their actions and then the narrations of erroneous narrators.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2016, 12:29:31 AM »
You have not understood the issues properly. Thats why you are upon a deviant path.

Main source of Sunnah is Prophet(saws). You claim to get it through Ahlulbayt who neither saw Prophet(saws) nor where born after his time. We got it from people who saw Prophet(saws) and lived their lives with him.

The point which should make you realize the problem is comparing the Sunnah reported via Ahlulbayt in Sunni books, compared to your books. You will find it in conflicting. And ironically you claim your Imams were under taqiyyah during their lives, which technically makes their reports unreliable, unless supported by a source which was from a time without Taqiyyah.

Hmmm, so Prophet --> Ali Al-Murtaza --> Hasan Al-Mujtaba --> Hussain As-Shaheed.... are not direct from the Prophet???
If you read the chains of most of your hadeeth then the chains are like. ....Zurarah-  Baqir - Prophet.

Or ...Zurarah-  Jafar - Prophet.
etc.

They were born decades after Prophet(saws).

Quote
I get  your point however what I dont get is your blind trust in the sahaba, their actions and then the narrations of erroneous narrators.
We put our trust in Allah who praised Sahaba in Quran. Infact Your Imam himself put the trust in Sahaba, regarding the authentic hadeeth of al-Kafi. The problem is your ignorance.

And why are you hiding away from the main problem i raised, which is that the reports from Ahlulbayt in Sunni books conflict with reports from Ahlulbayt in Shia books. So the problem is not in Sahaba. The problem lies in the narrators.

I repeat:
you claim your Imams were under taqiyyah during their lives, which technically makes their reports unreliable, unless supported by a source which was from a time without Taqiyyah.

ShiaMan

Re: [Help needed] What is the origin of word Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2016, 05:52:38 PM »
If you read the chains of most of your hadeeth then the chains are like. ....Zurarah-  Baqir - Prophet.

Or ...Zurarah-  Jafar - Prophet.
etc.

They were born decades after Prophet(saws).
Whenever a narration stops at an Imam, one is to assume the chain goes from his father to his father...to Ali to Prophet.

We put our trust in Allah who praised Sahaba in Quran. Infact Your Imam himself put the trust in Sahaba, regarding the authentic hadeeth of al-Kafi. The problem is your ignorance.
We respect plenty of sahaba. Only criteria we have is those sahaba stayed loyal to AhlulBayt. You guys are naive enough to think all sahaba were perfect and could do no wrong. We call it like it is.

And why are you hiding away from the main problem i raised, which is that the reports from Ahlulbayt in Sunni books conflict with reports from Ahlulbayt in Shia books. So the problem is not in Sahaba. The problem lies in the narrators.
Problem is narrators for sure and also some sahaba like Abu Huraira.

I repeat:
you claim your Imams were under taqiyyah during their lives, which technically makes their reports unreliable, unless supported by a source which was from a time without Taqiyyah.
When did I ever claim the Imams were in taqiyyah. The Imams advised their followers to observe taqiyyah to avoid persecution but they never did. If so, they would not have been poisoned or put to the sword, etc.

 

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