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Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.

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Abu Mustafa

Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« on: June 27, 2015, 09:08:16 PM »
Bismillah irrahman irrahim,

I was going through a shiite forum and i went through a thread about debate on imamah and till today i couldnt figure out what was the right way imamate or caliphate through shura. I was so confused about which faith to adopt sunni or shia? But Alhamdulillah i am now clear and it has driven all my confusion to the bin. This brother argued very cleverly and busted the opponent by these lines:


"Lets assume for the sake of arguments that imamat of the 12 was the chosen way. Ok Ali becomes the khalifa, than hassan, than hussain & till ur 12th imam mahdi. I am sure we all agree these imams were MORTAL human beings. Suppose each of these imams got khilafat without any resistance & there was no opposition by anyone & this is what u shias want isnt it? U criticize the sahaba for depriving the Ahly bayt from their right  to rule the ummah? Fine...   20 years of khilafat by each of ur "divinely appointed" imam gives a total of 240 years. What after that? For the sake of argument we accept that all ur stories & tales of the tragedies & sad events surrounding the Ahly Bayt from the day they were entitled to rule till the day ur last imam left the ummah are true, but all these self made theories fail miserably on the other side when we apply them to reality. U guys have NO authentic narrations to clearly indicate what would been the scenario if things went in the favor of Ahly Bait & no one turned against Ali & his family"

He further continues:

shia islam fails when it comes to the real application of its underlying principles. That proves it NOT the legitimate school of thought. This is why i dont accept it as a right path. It is full of flaws & miscalculations. 
 
 
Compare this system with that of sunnis, a shura elects a caliph who is capable & worth of being one. He can be anyone, from any tribe, any race... thats more practical & applicable too.  Its not limited to a number of people. It can be continued till qiyamah. So thats the right way."



I am fully confident on my faith from now on. Shiism is false religion and doesnt make sense at all.

Rationalist

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 05:40:04 AM »
I have asked this question before. Why are there only 12 Calipahs for an ummah which lasted for 15 centuries ? Allah sent 124,000 Prophets, but he is only sending 12 Calipahs ? Due to this restriction the 12ers have added the concept of rajah in their belief where every time an Imam passes away he is resurrected by another Imam to keep the Imamate functioning.

Also another question to ask is who was the Imam after Prophet Isa (as) ? Again the 12ers have no answers. 

Furkan

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2015, 05:19:30 PM »
Thanks for sharing, both OP and Rationalist.

I didn't look at it this way in details, but as you guys says, it's just doesn't make sense :D
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

MuslimK

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  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 06:50:19 PM »
Bismillah irrahman irrahim,

I was going through a shiite forum and i went through a thread about debate on imamah and till today i couldnt figure out what was the right way imamate or caliphate through shura. I was so confused about which faith to adopt sunni or shia? But Alhamdulillah i am now clear and it has driven all my confusion to the bin. This brother argued very cleverly and busted the opponent by these lines:


"Lets assume for the sake of arguments that imamat of the 12 was the chosen way. Ok Ali becomes the khalifa, than hassan, than hussain & till ur 12th imam mahdi. I am sure we all agree these imams were MORTAL human beings. Suppose each of these imams got khilafat without any resistance & there was no opposition by anyone & this is what u shias want isnt it? U criticize the sahaba for depriving the Ahly bayt from their right  to rule the ummah? Fine...   20 years of khilafat by each of ur "divinely appointed" imam gives a total of 240 years. What after that? For the sake of argument we accept that all ur stories & tales of the tragedies & sad events surrounding the Ahly Bayt from the day they were entitled to rule till the day ur last imam left the ummah are true, but all these self made theories fail miserably on the other side when we apply them to reality. U guys have NO authentic narrations to clearly indicate what would been the scenario if things went in the favor of Ahly Bait & no one turned against Ali & his family"

He further continues:

shia islam fails when it comes to the real application of its underlying principles. That proves it NOT the legitimate school of thought. This is why i dont accept it as a right path. It is full of flaws & miscalculations. 
 
 
Compare this system with that of sunnis, a shura elects a caliph who is capable & worth of being one. He can be anyone, from any tribe, any race... thats more practical & applicable too.  Its not limited to a number of people. It can be continued till qiyamah. So thats the right way."



I am fully confident on my faith from now on. Shiism is false religion and doesnt make sense at all.

Salam Alaikum wr wb,

Dear brother, welcome to the forum.

Praise be to Allah. Good to read your message. Indeed, you raised a good point. These are some of the strongest evidences that totally refutes Shiism.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Al Dukhan

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2015, 08:54:45 PM »
@abu mustafa the argument you liked is of bro invoker on sc ! His user ID here too is same [invoker].
Welcome

Abu Ammar

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2015, 05:31:20 AM »
Jazak Allah Kheir Brother Abu Mustafa for sharing

I too have used this argument against the Shia. I say;

1) If Allah had destined 12 Imams, then he had destined them to be oppressed since the last one (Al-Mahdi) had to flee due to the oppression and as a consequence, we are left with 12

2) Therefore had they not been oppressed, then there would have been more than 12

How can the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) tell us about the right of rulership of this number of men, if the number itself is a testimony of the failure of this fulfillment? [Regarding hadith of the 12 Khulafaa']
The number is 12 because most of them didn't get rulership in the first place - so it's a contradiction!

That's like telling a doctor to cure the disease that has already killed the patient.
How can you be told to something, in which the definite result in the end, is the result of you not doing it?
(in this case, taking all the Imams as rulers)
This is why I believe Shi'ism inevitably shuns Qadr.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 06:08:23 AM by Abu Ammar »
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

'Do not Believe [in] the religion of the Rawafidh, for they are people of distortion and the party of Satan'

Nooniyah Al-Qahtani

Abu Ammar

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2015, 05:55:46 AM »
I must add

Given scenario 2) is very possible [mentioned in my previous post above], then this would go against the Shi'ite narrative of the Hadith of the 12 Khulufaa'.

This is because the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) conveyed this hadith with the hope that most, if not all will listen and take the Imams as rulers. So had the people truly adhered to what the Prophet said (or meant), then given scenario 2), there would be more than 12.

In other words; had the people listened to the Prophet (Peace & blessings be upon him) with regards to this matter, then his prophecies would not have been fulfilled - another contradiction!

And again; how can you be told to something, in which the definite result in the end, is the result of you not doing it?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 06:10:11 AM by Abu Ammar »
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

'Do not Believe [in] the religion of the Rawafidh, for they are people of distortion and the party of Satan'

Nooniyah Al-Qahtani

Abu Mustafa

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2015, 10:19:41 AM »
Thanks all of you. Why dont shias come here and debate?

Furkan

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2015, 12:24:06 PM »
"Cuz they're our brethren, dont call them our enemy, but our souls" :p
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Al Dukhan

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2015, 09:46:30 PM »
^lol, Allah hu Akbar, mr. Sistani ! You memorized it bro

Khaled

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2015, 11:06:18 PM »
"Cuz they're our brethren, dont call them our enemy, but our souls" :p
If we really are "Anfusahum", does that make me an Ayatollah??  ::)
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

zeeshan-salafi

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 08:24:39 AM »
I have asked this question before. Why are there only 12 Calipahs for an ummah which lasted for 15 centuries ? Allah sent 124,000 Prophets, but he is only sending 12 Calipahs ? Due to this restriction the 12ers have added the concept of rajah in their belief where every time an Imam passes away he is resurrected by another Imam to keep the Imamate functioning.

Also another question to ask is who was the Imam after Prophet Isa (as) ? Again the 12ers have no answers.


that is one hell of a question

Hadrami

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 11:36:02 PM »
Bismillah irrahman irrahim,
shia islam fails when it comes to the real application of its underlying principles.
True, 1st principle (imamah) doesnt work then they create 2nd principle (ghayba) which contradicts the 1st
 
Compare this system with that of sunnis, a shura elects a caliph who is capable & worth of being one. He can be anyone, from any tribe, any race... thats more practical & applicable too.  Its not limited to a number of people. It can be continued till qiyamah. So thats the right way."
it is not a perfect system, but for sure it is more practical, not just a theory without real application. In the end shia follows what we are doing, use shura to select leader and follow fallible scholars like we do.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 11:37:07 PM by Hadrami »

iceman

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 12:01:32 PM »
Bismillah irrahman irrahim,

I was going through a shiite forum and i went through a thread about debate on imamah and till today i couldnt figure out what was the right way imamate or caliphate through shura. I was so confused about which faith to adopt sunni or shia? But Alhamdulillah i am now clear and it has driven all my confusion to the bin. This brother argued very cleverly and busted the opponent by these lines:


"Lets assume for the sake of arguments that imamat of the 12 was the chosen way. Ok Ali becomes the khalifa, than hassan, than hussain & till ur 12th imam mahdi. I am sure we all agree these imams were MORTAL human beings. Suppose each of these imams got khilafat without any resistance & there was no opposition by anyone & this is what u shias want isnt it? U criticize the sahaba for depriving the Ahly bayt from their right  to rule the ummah? Fine...   20 years of khilafat by each of ur "divinely appointed" imam gives a total of 240 years. What after that? For the sake of argument we accept that all ur stories & tales of the tragedies & sad events surrounding the Ahly Bayt from the day they were entitled to rule till the day ur last imam left the ummah are true, but all these self made theories fail miserably on the other side when we apply them to reality. U guys have NO authentic narrations to clearly indicate what would been the scenario if things went in the favor of Ahly Bait & no one turned against Ali & his family"

He further continues:

shia islam fails when it comes to the real application of its underlying principles. That proves it NOT the legitimate school of thought. This is why i dont accept it as a right path. It is full of flaws & miscalculations. 
 
 
Compare this system with that of sunnis, a shura elects a caliph who is capable & worth of being one. He can be anyone, from any tribe, any race... thats more practical & applicable too.  Its not limited to a number of people. It can be continued till qiyamah. So thats the right way."



I am fully confident on my faith from now on. Shiism is false religion and doesnt make sense at all.

First of all congratulations on my behalf that you have eventually found the path which you are comfortable with and put an end to your confusion. Secondly I suggest you take a good look at your post, 'destroyed', 'busted', 'this is what you want' etc. This sounds like someone with grievance and bitterness. It doesn't sound like someone with confusion and in search of the right path with an open mind. This attitude is with many on this forum. Anyway lets move on.

I will mention this again. Sunis believe in consultation (Shura). Ok. Point taken.

What are the principles and circumstances of Shura? What are the rules and regulations of Shura? What is the procedure and method to conduct Shura? Ok now lets take a look at Saqifa one more time. What are the reality and facts concerning Saqifa? Was this a public gathering, a main event where all participants were involved in making such an important decision? Was everyone present or invited? Did everyone have an equal say? How were the candidates chosen?    Where is the legitimacy, the justice and fairness when it comes to Saqifa?

Forget about Abu Bakr was a good man and take a look at the reign of the two Khalifs, their character, performance and achievement etc. This has got nothing to do with it and is just used to derail the argument and to turn away from the main subject.

Now come on. Start answering and discussing. Or accept the facts that Saqifa was an unjustified and illegitimate minor gathering. And the result was unfair and unreasonable. There was no consultation (shura) here because vast majority didn't have a clue about this unreasonable and unfortunate incident, not an event. There is a clear difference between incident and event.

Now some of you are worried about copy and paste although it is information. And some of you provide links which I don't have a problem with since it's information. Anyways here you have it.

Nameless servant

Re: Excellent point raised by a brother to destroy shiism.
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 12:00:04 PM »
I am still looking for a good refutation for schism. This hypothetical stick man is worthless. I can even answer this and I'm not Shia.  For the era of the 12 imams we would have righteous rulers and the true Islam.

 

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