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I feel like there is some truth to the imamate

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Cherub786

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2018, 09:12:18 AM »
Check out this column on my website:
Jafar al-Sadiq's Denial of Imamate

In summary, sayyidina Ja'far al-Sadiq رضى الله عنه denied being an Imam according to Shiite Hadith:

عَنْ سَعِيدٍ السَّمَّانِ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) إِذْ دَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ رَجُلَانِ مِنَ الزَّيْدِيَّةِ فَقَالَا لَهُ أَ فِيكُمْ إِمَامٌ مُفْتَرَضُ الطَّاعَةِ قَالَ فَقَالَ لَا

Sa‘id al-Samman who said: “I was in the presence of Abu Abdillah (Ja’far al-Sadiq alayhis-salam) when two men from the Zaydiya entered upon him. They both asked, “Is there among you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory.” (Ja’far al-Sadiq) said: “No.” (al-Kafi v.1 p.168)

In fact, not only did Ja'far al-Sadiq deny Imamate for himself, he affirmed that the true Imam of his time was Imam Zayd b. Ali Zayn ul-Abidin رضى الله عنهما

"A group of them had gone to Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Ali and said to him: "Zayd b. Ali is among us, asking us to give him the oath of allegiance. Do you think it right that we should do so?" Ja'far said to them: "Yes, give your oath of allegiance to him, for by God, he is the most excellent of us. He is our master and the best of us."
(History of Tabari v.26 p.38)

Therefore, the so-called Ja'fari Shiites should at the very least convert to Zaydi Shiites, because according to their sixth Imam Ja'far, he himself was not the real Imam, but it was Imam Zayd who was the true Imam of his time.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 09:18:12 AM by Cherub786 »
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Mythbuster1

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2018, 09:24:08 AM »
The truth will hurt him the guy is already hurt by saqifa that he is debating with 2 posters already and you are the 3rd I believe, on divine Imamate!........shura has broken the dream of his divine leadership chosen by god.

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2018, 10:52:59 AM »
The truth will hurt him the guy is already hurt by saqifa that he is debating with 2 posters already and you are the 3rd I believe, on divine Imamate!........shura has broken the dream of his divine leadership chosen by god.

The truth doesn't hurt me because I'm willing to accept and embrace it. Saqifa is most certainly not the truth because it was just an unfortunate and regrettable incident which shouldn't have taken place and people shouldn't have accepted it.

Shura hasn't broken anything because all you know is SHURA. That's what you yapp on about but you can't move forward from that particular word about how, when, where and any method, procedure or principles regarding it. 😆

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2018, 11:09:51 AM »
Check out this column on my website:
Jafar al-Sadiq's Denial of Imamate

In summary, sayyidina Ja'far al-Sadiq رضى الله عنه denied being an Imam according to Shiite Hadith:

عَنْ سَعِيدٍ السَّمَّانِ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) إِذْ دَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ رَجُلَانِ مِنَ الزَّيْدِيَّةِ فَقَالَا لَهُ أَ فِيكُمْ إِمَامٌ مُفْتَرَضُ الطَّاعَةِ قَالَ فَقَالَ لَا

Sa‘id al-Samman who said: “I was in the presence of Abu Abdillah (Ja’far al-Sadiq alayhis-salam) when two men from the Zaydiya entered upon him. They both asked, “Is there among you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory.” (Ja’far al-Sadiq) said: “No.” (al-Kafi v.1 p.168)

In fact, not only did Ja'far al-Sadiq deny Imamate for himself, he affirmed that the true Imam of his time was Imam Zayd b. Ali Zayn ul-Abidin رضى الله عنهما

"A group of them had gone to Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Ali and said to him: "Zayd b. Ali is among us, asking us to give him the oath of allegiance. Do you think it right that we should do so?" Ja'far said to them: "Yes, give your oath of allegiance to him, for by God, he is the most excellent of us. He is our master and the best of us."
(History of Tabari v.26 p.38)

Therefore, the so-called Ja'fari Shiites should at the very least convert to Zaydi Shiites, because according to their sixth Imam Ja'far, he himself was not the real Imam, but it was Imam Zayd who was the true Imam of his time.

First of all one needs to look carefully and examine the material you've put forward, how exact it is to the actual reference and also how authentic and true it is. This is what applies to you and what you also expect. Any material I put forward you're quick to challenge it.

Now the contradiction in the material you've put forward.

"two men from the Zaydiya entered upon him. They both asked, “Is there among you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory.” (Ja’far al-Sadiq) said: “No.”

They asked and what was Jaffar's answer,

"NO".

Now take a look at the following and notice the contradiction,

"In fact, not only did Ja'far al-Sadiq deny Imamate for himself, he affirmed that the true Imam of his time was Imam Zayd b. Ali Zayn ul-Abidin رضى الله عنهما"

First Jaffar denied Imamah, take a look at this,

"Check out this column on my website:
Jafar al-Sadiq's Denial of Imamate"

Notice the end bit in case you've missed it,

"Jafar al-Sadiq's Denial of Imamate[/url]"

First denial of Imamah then Jaffar was asked,

 "Is there among you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory.”

He replied "NO". Then Jaffar is affirming  that the true Imam of his time was Imam Zayd b. Ali Zayn ul-Abidin رضى الله عنهما

SERIOUSLY.

Cherub786

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2018, 12:31:24 PM »
First of all one needs to look carefully and examine the material you've put forward, how exact it is to the actual reference and also how authentic and true it is. This is what applies to you and what you also expect. Any material I put forward you're quick to challenge it.

Now the contradiction in the material you've put forward.

"two men from the Zaydiya entered upon him. They both asked, “Is there among you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory.” (Ja’far al-Sadiq) said: “No.”

They asked and what was Jaffar's answer,

"NO".

Now take a look at the following and notice the contradiction,

"In fact, not only did Ja'far al-Sadiq deny Imamate for himself, he affirmed that the true Imam of his time was Imam Zayd b. Ali Zayn ul-Abidin رضى الله عنهما"

First Jaffar denied Imamah, take a look at this,

"Check out this column on my website:
Jafar al-Sadiq's Denial of Imamate"

Notice the end bit in case you've missed it,

"Jafar al-Sadiq's Denial of Imamate[/url]"

First denial of Imamah then Jaffar was asked,

 "Is there among you an Imam obedience to whom is obligatory.”

He replied "NO". Then Jaffar is affirming  that the true Imam of his time was Imam Zayd b. Ali Zayn ul-Abidin رضى الله عنهما

SERIOUSLY.

I think you have a poor comprehension of Arabic. The Hadith I quoted is from Asul al-Kafi, you can see the photo scan through that link to my website.

I also quoted the Arabic matn. Please read it again or try to understand what it means. The two individuals from the Zaydiya entered into the presence of Jafar al-Sadiq and Sa'id al-Samman. They asked "Is there an Imam among you to whom obedience is owed?"

The Arabic word افيكم "is there among you". They are not asking if there is an Imam in general, they are asking is there an Imam among you, meaning in this gathering which we have entered.

So there is no contradiction. You simply misunderstood the question of the two individuals from the Zaydiyya because you didn't carefully read the Arabic matn or you lack comprehension of it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 12:34:44 PM by Cherub786 »
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Mythbuster1

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2018, 12:46:56 PM »
The truth doesn't hurt me because I'm willing to accept and embrace it. Saqifa is most certainly not the truth because it was just an unfortunate and regrettable incident which shouldn't have taken place and people shouldn't have accepted it.

Shura hasn't broken anything because all you know is SHURA. That's what you yapp on about but you can't move forward from that particular word about how, when, where and any method, procedure or principles regarding it. 😆

What bout promotion???

Are you gonna show us the method, when how procedure or principle?

Saqifa really has decreased your brain cells.😉

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2018, 04:07:21 PM »
What bout promotion???

Are you gonna show us the method, when how procedure or principle?

Saqifa really has decreased your brain cells.😉

What about promotion? Here it is again just to knock you out one more time,

Was Abraham promoted, was he demoted or was he given a title and grade of a similar nature and level?😊

Go on, knock yourself out over it 😆

"Saqifa really has decreased your brain cells."

I've said and put plenty forward on Saqifa. By all means do jump in if you feel like you have it. I don't think you've got what it takes to discuss and debate. That's why you come out with taunts and tantrums.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 04:08:54 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2018, 04:11:57 PM »
I think you have a poor comprehension of Arabic. The Hadith I quoted is from Asul al-Kafi, you can see the photo scan through that link to my website.

I also quoted the Arabic matn. Please read it again or try to understand what it means. The two individuals from the Zaydiya entered into the presence of Jafar al-Sadiq and Sa'id al-Samman. They asked "Is there an Imam among you to whom obedience is owed?"

The Arabic word افيكم "is there among you". They are not asking if there is an Imam in general, they are asking is there an Imam among you, meaning in this gathering which we have entered.

So there is no contradiction. You simply misunderstood the question of the two individuals from the Zaydiyya because you didn't carefully read the Arabic matn or you lack comprehension of it.


"The Hadith I quoted is from Asul Al-Kafi"

First of all is it a HADITH you quoted or is it a NARRATION you quoted? Do you know the difference between HADITH and NARRATION? Lets settle this first.

Secondly Asul Al-Kafi, is everything in this book Shia belief? Do you believe that everything the author mentioned in the book is part of the author and Shia belief?

We are Isna Ashar and we believe Jaffar Al Sadiq was our 6th Imam. And you bring a narration out of Al Kafi that contradicts our belief and you want us to believe that?  What do you think we are, STUPID.

Doesn't this tell you that, if this material that you've put forward is exactly like that in Al-Kafi then wouldn't this mean that the author has mentioned quite a few things in his book as collection of different narrations and arguments rather than part of his belief.

If you have a Sunni author/writer and what ever they've mentioned in their book are we suppose to assume everything in that book is part of the Sunni belief and faith?

You really need to think about this seriously and shake off those double standards or you (Sunnis) having different set of Principles and standards when it comes to us.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 04:24:47 PM by iceman »

Cherub786

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2018, 04:38:49 PM »
First of all is it a HADITH you quoted or is it a NARRATION you quoted? Do you know the difference between HADITH and NARRATION? Lets settle this first.

This is your attempt at an immaterial diversion. It is a Hadith of your 6th Imam, which in principle is meant to be authoritative for you since you believe the 12 Imams are infallible guides, protected from Allah from every sin and error in their actions and sayings.

Quote
Secondly Asul Al-Kafi, is everything in this book Shia belief? Do you believe that everything the author mentioned in the book is part of the author and Shia belief?

Tell me how did this book come to have the title "al-Kaafi" (The Sufficient)? Do you know the story behind that?
Who said the following?

كافٍ لشيعتنا
"Sufficient for our Shi'a" ??

Quote
We are Isna Ashar and we believe Jaffar Al Sadiq was our 6th Imam. And you bring a narration out of Al Kafi that contradicts our belief and you want us to believe that?  What do you think we are, STUPID.

You would be stupid to have a preconceived belief without any proof to back it up. If your own 6th Imam is denying he is an Imam, perhaps its time to re-evaluate your belief rather than try to shove that Hadith under the rug.

Quote
If you have a Sunni author/writer and what ever they've mentioned in their book are we suppose to assume everything in that book is part of the Sunni belief and faith?

We don't believe our Sunni authors and writers are infallible. For us only Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is infallible in conveying the Deen. Don't compare apples to oranges. The Hadith of your 6th Imam from a text which your 12th Imam allegedly said is "sufficient for our Shi'a" you have no choice but to accept this Hadith.
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iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2018, 05:08:53 PM »
This is your attempt at an immaterial diversion. It is a Hadith of your 6th Imam, which in principle is meant to be authoritative for you since you believe the 12 Imams are infallible guides, protected from Allah from every sin and error in their actions and sayings.

Tell me how did this book come to have the title "al-Kaafi" (The Sufficient)? Do you know the story behind that?
Who said the following?

كافٍ لشيعتنا
"Sufficient for our Shi'a" ??

You would be stupid to have a preconceived belief without any proof to back it up. If your own 6th Imam is denying he is an Imam, perhaps its time to re-evaluate your belief rather than try to shove that Hadith under the rug.

We don't believe our Sunni authors and writers are infallible. For us only Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is infallible in conveying the Deen. Don't compare apples to oranges. The Hadith of your 6th Imam from a text which your 12th Imam allegedly said is "sufficient for our Shi'a" you have no choice but to accept this Hadith.

Don't dance around this. If you can't answer or address then at least be honest about it. What does Hadith mean;

Hadith
noun
a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad s.a.w  which, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.

Hadith is the saying of the Prophet s.a.w through a narrator or chain of narrators. The one you've quoted isn't a hadith but a saying of Jaffar Al Sadiq or it is assumed that it's from him.

". It is a Hadith of your 6th Imam"

No it isn't from our 6th Imam. Many things in history are wrongly and falsely attributed to them. History has been distorted and messed about by those in authority and power just to undermine and camouflage the truth.

And to keep the Ummah misinformed and misguided about the Ahle Baith and the 12 Imams. This has been going on for sometime and started off at Saqifa. Yes Saqifa was the birth place of such propaganda.

"which in principle is meant to be authoritative for you since you believe the 12 Imams are infallible guides, protected from Allah from every sin and error in their actions and sayings"

It's got nothing to do with infallibility. You mention something from Al-Kafi which absolutely and completely contradicts our belief and faith. I challenge that this is from the 6th Imam. Just because it's in Al-Kafi doesn't mean it's the belief of the author/writer and is our view when it contradicts our belief.

"Tell me how did this book come to have the title "al-Kaafi" (The Sufficient)? Do you know the story behind that?
Who said the following?

كافٍ لشيعتنا
"Sufficient for our Shi'a" ??"

And how does the above mean that everything in Al-Kafi is part or should be part of our belief and faith? What was the belief of the author/writer of Al-Kafi? Was he not an Isna Ashar?

Our book is the Qur'an and we believe in it 100%. We have no belief as such about any other book as the Sunnis do. Example, 'Haza Sehih Bukhari Baad Az Kitab e Bari' you know what that means?

Cherub786

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2018, 05:24:07 PM »
Don't dance around this. If you can't answer or address then at least be honest about it. What does Hadith mean;

Hadith
noun
a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad s.a.w  which, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.

Hadith is the saying of the Prophet s.a.w through a narrator or chain of narrators. The one you've quoted isn't a hadith but a saying of Jaffar Al Sadiq or it is assumed that it's from him.

Okay, for the sake of argument it's not a Hadith but a saying of your 6th Imam. The question is, if it is a saying of your 6th Imam is authoritative for you or not?

Hadith in Arabic simply means utterance. That's the linguistic meaning of the word. In our terminology, it usually refers to an utterance of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, but it can refer to the utterance of anyone. So no need for you to play this game of semantics, you understand my point, you are trying to divert the issue in order to escape having to answer.

Quote
No it isn't from our 6th Imam. Many things in history are wrongly and falsely attributed to them. History has been distorted and messed about by those in authority and power just to undermine and camouflage the truth.

How are you so sure it isn't from your 6th Imam? Will you be the one to arbitrarily decide and judge what your own Imams said? Do you have any grasp of logic or how to debate?

So you say this narration contradicts your preconceived belief so it must be a fabrication. Do you know what a circular argument is?

Quote
And to keep the Ummah misinformed and misguided about the Ahle Baith and the 12 Imams. This has been going on for sometime and started off at Saqifa. Yes Saqifa was the birth place of such propaganda.

So your own book al-Kafi is propaganda? Did any Sunni have a hand in writing al-Kafi?

Quote
It's got nothing to do with infallibility. You mention something from Al-Kafi which absolutely and completely contradicts our belief and faith. I challenge that this is from the 6th Imam. Just because it's in Al-Kafi doesn't mean it's the belief of the author/writer and is our view when it contradicts our belief.

Why are you challenging me? I challenge you to prove this isn't a saying of your 6th Imam, unless you disown al-Kafi and say you reject that book altogether. On what basis will you reject this saying. "It contradicts our belief", that's called circular reasoning. You have to do better than that.

Quote
Our book is the Qur'an and we believe in it 100%.

Does the Qur'an say Jafar al-Sadiq is the Sixth Imam? Please quote me the Ayah.
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Khaled

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2018, 07:24:53 PM »
Don't dance around this. If you can't answer or address then at least be honest about it. What does Hadith mean;

Hadith
noun
a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad s.a.w  which, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.

Hadith is the saying of the Prophet s.a.w through a narrator or chain of narrators. The one you've quoted isn't a hadith but a saying of Jaffar Al Sadiq or it is assumed that it's from him.

Your ignorance is mind-blowing: a hadeeth for the shi'a is the saying of a ma'soom, not just what is reported from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.  The fact that you don't know this basic fact just has me scratching my head as to why I'm wasting my time responding to you.

Quote
No it isn't from our 6th Imam. Many things in history are wrongly and falsely attributed to them. History has been distorted and messed about by those in authority and power just to undermine and camouflage the truth.

And to keep the Ummah misinformed and misguided about the Ahle Baith and the 12 Imams. This has been going on for sometime and started off at Saqifa. Yes Saqifa was the birth place of such propaganda.

So this hadeeth was made up by Sunnis and added to al-Kafi to undermine and camouflage the truth?  Do you honestly read what you post before posting it?


Quote
It's got nothing to do with infallibility. You mention something from Al-Kafi which absolutely and completely contradicts our belief and faith. I challenge that this is from the 6th Imam. Just because it's in Al-Kafi doesn't mean it's the belief of the author/writer and is our view when it contradicts our belief.

Read that sentence back to yourself and tell me how absurd that sounds?

Quote
And how does the above mean that everything in Al-Kafi is part or should be part of our belief and faith? What was the belief of the author/writer of Al-Kafi? Was he not an Isna Ashar?

Our book is the Qur'an and we believe in it 100%. We have no belief as such about any other book as the Sunnis do. Example, 'Haza Sehih Bukhari Baad Az Kitab e Bari' you know what that means?

No one with a sense of academic honestly believes everything in Bukhari and Muslim is authentic.  The fact that you repeat this tired trope just shows you don't have anything to say about the narration, so you just reject it and throw everything by the kitchen sink hoping something sticks.

However, here are some quotes about the books from your major scholars (and not some random transliterated Urdu slogan) that you are so quick to reject:

Shaikh al-Hur al-Aamili said, "The authors of the 4 Books of shia have testified that the Hadiths of their books are accurate (saheeh) , firm and well conducted from the roots that all shia agreed on , and if you consider those scholars (the authors of the four books) are reliable then you must accept their sayings and their narrations . " [Al-wasa’el, vol. 20, p. 104]
Abd al-Husayn Sharaf al-Din al-Musawi said: "Al-Kafi, Al-Istibsaar, Al-Tahzeeb and Mun La Yahduruhu Al-faqeeh are Mutawatirah and agreed on the accuracy of its contents (the Hadiths), and Al-Kafi is the oldest, greatest, best and the most accurate one of them.“ [The book of Al-Muraja'aat (A Shi'i-Sunni dialogue), Muraj'ah No. 110]
Al-Tabrosi (aka, Tabarsi) said:"Al-Kafi among the 4 shia books is like the sun among the stars, and who looked fairly would not need to notice the position of the men in the chain of hadiths in this Book, and if you looked fairly you would feel satisfied and sure that the hadiths are firm and accurate."[Mustadrak al-Wasail, vol. 3, p. 532]
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2018, 01:14:29 AM »

Okay, for the sake of argument it's not a Hadith but a saying of your 6th Imam. The question is, if it is a saying of your 6th Imam is authoritative for you or not?

Hadith in Arabic simply means utterance. That's the linguistic meaning of the word. In our terminology, it usually refers to an utterance of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, but it can refer to the utterance of anyone. So no need for you to play this game of semantics, you understand my point, you are trying to divert the issue in order to escape having to answer.

How are you so sure it isn't from your 6th Imam? Will you be the one to arbitrarily decide and judge what your own Imams said? Do you have any grasp of logic or how to debate?

So you say this narration contradicts your preconceived belief so it must be a fabrication. Do you know what a circular argument is?

So your own book al-Kafi is propaganda? Did any Sunni have a hand in writing al-Kafi?

Why are you challenging me? I challenge you to prove this isn't a saying of your 6th Imam, unless you disown al-Kafi and say you reject that book altogether. On what basis will you reject this saying. "It contradicts our belief", that's called circular reasoning. You have to do better than that.

Does the Qur'an say Jafar al-Sadiq is the Sixth Imam? Please quote me the Ayah.

"The question is, if it is a saying of your 6th Imam is authoritative for you or not"

It's not a saying of our 6th Imam. We don't believe it is because it contradicts our belief as well as the belief of the  author/writer of the book.

"So no need for you to play this game of semantics, you understand my point, you are trying to divert the issue in order to escape having to answer"

I'm not playing games here just pointing out a flaw in your post and belief. Hadith is a saying of the Prophet s.a.w and no one else. It's just as simple as that. Why don't you boys just accept where you're wrong rather than putting up an arrogant and stubborn stance.

"you are trying to divert the issue in order to escape having to answer"

That's the tactics of you boys. That's your way, not mine. 😊

"How are you so sure it isn't from your 6th Imam? Will you be the one to arbitrarily decide and judge what your own Imams said? Do you have any grasp of logic or how to debate?"

What is the belief and faith of Isna Ashar? What was the belief and faith of the author/writer of Al-Kafi? 😊

"So you say this narration contradicts your preconceived belief so it must be a fabrication. Do you know what a circular argument is?:

Why don't you tell me.

"So your own book al-Kafi is propaganda? Did any Sunni have a hand in writing al-Kafi?"

It's not our own book. Our own book is the Qur'an. Can you prove to me that what's in that book is the faith and belief of the author/writer?

"Does the Qur'an say Jafar al-Sadiq is the Sixth Imam? Please quote me the Ayah"

Does the Qur'an tell you how many raka'ah you need to pray for Salah Al Fajr?  😊 I can give you plenty as such 😆

Cherub786

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2018, 01:40:08 PM »
It's not a saying of our 6th Imam. We don't believe it is because it contradicts our belief as well as the belief of the  author/writer of the book.

Circular argument.

Okay, tell me what is the source of your belief? Did you get it out of thin air or do you have a textual basis for all your metaphysical doctrines?

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What is the belief and faith of Isna Ashar? What was the belief and faith of the author/writer of Al-Kafi? 😊

Give me the textual foundation for your Ithna Ashari beliefs, if it is not al-Kafi then what is it.
If you say it is the Quran, then show me the belief in Imamate, Ismah of 12 Imams, names of 12 Imams, designation of 12 Imams straight from the Quran.

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"So you say this narration contradicts your preconceived belief so it must be a fabrication. Do you know what a circular argument is?:

Why don't you tell me.

"a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true."

Your conclusion is that this narration of your 6th Imam is false because it contradicts your Ithna Ashari beliefs. Your Ithna Ashari beliefs are the premise. You cannot prove the conclusion without first proving the premise (Ithna Ashari beliefs).

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It's not our own book. Our own book is the Qur'an. Can you prove to me that what's in that book is the faith and belief of the author/writer?

Then should I assume that all your Ithna Ashari beliefs are laid out clearly and explicitly in the Quran?

Quote
Does the Qur'an tell you how many raka'ah you need to pray for Salah Al Fajr?  😊 I can give you plenty as such 😆

Another self-contradiction! You just said your book is the Quran and you discount al-Kafi. Now you are telling me the Quran is not sufficient because it doesn't clearly state the number of rakaat?

Talk about having your cake and eating it too!
Forbidden_Link

Khaled

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2018, 07:30:47 PM »
It's not a saying of our 6th Imam. We don't believe it is because it contradicts our belief as well as the belief of the  author/writer of the book.

One of your main problem is you speak without knowledge.  This hadeeth is considered authentic, but is considered taqiyyah or tawriayh, and in fact is considered evidence because the point of the hadeeth is to show that Ja'far as-Sadiq رحمه الله had the weapons and other things inherited from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and not Zayd رحمه الله.  Here is the source:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/1122_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%A7%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A-%D8%AC-%D9%A1/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9_280

Am I being cheeky by linking you to something I know you can't read?  ;D

Quote
I'm not playing games here just pointing out a flaw in your post and belief. Hadith is a saying of the Prophet s.a.w and no one else. It's just as simple as that. Why don't you boys just accept where you're wrong rather than putting up an arrogant and stubborn stance.

Nope, a hadeeth is also what has been reported on the authority of the 12 Imams according to the 12er madhhab.

https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AB_%D8%B9%D9%86%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%B9%D8%A9

Now, will you "just accept where you're wrong rather than putting up an arrogant and stubborn stance"?

Quote
It's not our own book. Our own book is the Qur'an. Can you prove to me that what's in that book is the faith and belief of the author/writer?

"Does the Qur'an say Jafar al-Sadiq is the Sixth Imam? Please quote me the Ayah"

Does the Qur'an tell you how many raka'ah you need to pray for Salah Al Fajr?  😊 I can give you plenty as such 😆

As brother Cherub786 already pointed out the hilarious contradiction here بارك الله فيه, there is actually something else going on here that's just as funny.  This terrible argument of the number of rak'aat not being mentioned in the Qur'an is actually ripped off from a made up narration (or hadeeth according to 12ers) reported on the authority of Ja'far رحمه الله found in al-Kafi!!   ;D
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2018, 04:50:24 PM »
One of your main problem is you speak without knowledge.  This hadeeth is considered authentic, but is considered taqiyyah or tawriayh, and in fact is considered evidence because the point of the hadeeth is to show that Ja'far as-Sadiq رحمه الله had the weapons and other things inherited from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and not Zayd رحمه الله.  Here is the source:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/1122_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%A7%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A-%D8%AC-%D9%A1/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9_280

Am I being cheeky by linking you to something I know you can't read?  ;D

Nope, a hadeeth is also what has been reported on the authority of the 12 Imams according to the 12er madhhab.

https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AB_%D8%B9%D9%86%D8%AF_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%B9%D8%A9

Now, will you "just accept where you're wrong rather than putting up an arrogant and stubborn stance"?

As brother Cherub786 already pointed out the hilarious contradiction here بارك الله فيه, there is actually something else going on here that's just as funny.  This terrible argument of the number of rak'aat not being mentioned in the Qur'an is actually ripped off from a made up narration (or hadeeth according to 12ers) reported on the authority of Ja'far رحمه الله found in al-Kafi!!   ;D

Lets take this step by step. What was the faith and belief of the author/writer of Al-Kafi, before this book and after this book?

Hadeeth or Hadith, which ever way you want to spell it, is nothing other than the saying of the Prophet s.a.w. And this can be through one, two, three or a chain of narrators.

Hadith, Arabic Ḥadīth also spelled Hadīt, record of the traditions or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, revered and received as a major source of religious law and moral guidance, second only to the authority of the Qurʾān, the holy book of Islam.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 04:56:38 PM by iceman »

Khaled

Re: I feel like there is some truth to the imamate
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2018, 06:54:01 PM »
Lets take this step by step. What was the faith and belief of the author/writer of Al-Kafi, before this book and after this book?

First step, read what is written to you...

Quote
One of your main problem is you speak without knowledge.  This hadeeth is considered authentic, but is considered taqiyyah or tawriayh, and in fact is considered evidence because the point of the hadeeth is to show that Ja'far as-Sadiq رحمه الله had the weapons and other things inherited from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and not Zayd رحمه الله.  Here is the source:

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/1122_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%A7%D9%81%D9%8A-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%AE-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A-%D8%AC-%D9%A1/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9_280

Am I being cheeky by linking you to something I know you can't read?  ;D

Quote
Hadeeth or Hadith, which ever way you want to spell it, is nothing other than the saying of the Prophet s.a.w. And this can be through one, two, three or a chain of narrators.

Hadith, Arabic Ḥadīth also spelled Hadīt, record of the traditions or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, revered and received as a major source of religious law and moral guidance, second only to the authority of the Qurʾān, the holy book of Islam.

LOL, how is this a response to what I wrote to you?  A hadeeth is what has been related from an infallible according to the 12er madhhab; are you not a 12er?  Wow...
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

 

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