TwelverShia.net Forum

4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Soccer

4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« on: July 27, 2021, 08:26:50 PM »
That is which he gives good news to his servants that believe and do good deeds; say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin and whoever earns goodness we increase them in it beauty, and God is forgiving, appreciative. (42:23)

Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)

Or do they envy the humans for what God has given them out of his grace? For indeed we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book, and wisdom and we gave them a great authority. (4:54)

O you who believe; obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess the Authority from you therefore if you dispute in a thing refer it to God and the Messenger, this is better and best in ending. (4:59)
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Khaled

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2021, 11:23:32 PM »
Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of prostration (during prayers). This is their description in the Taurat (Torah). But their description in the Injeel (Gospel) is like a (sown) seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allah has promised those among them who believe (i.e. all those who follow Islamic Monotheism, the religion of Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم till the Day of Resurrection) and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward (i.e. Paradise). (48:29)

Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave the Bai'ah (pledge) to you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) under the tree: He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah (calmness and tranquillity) upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory. (48:18)

And the foremost to embrace Islam of the Muhajirun (those who migrated from Makkah to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (the citizens of Al-Madinah who helped and gave aid to the Muhajirun ) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success. (09:100)

Allah has forgiven the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), the Muhajirun (Muslim emigrants who left their homes and came to Al-Madinah) and the Ansar (Muslims of Al-Madinah) who followed him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) in the time of distress (Tabuk expedition), after the hearts of a party of them had nearly deviated (from the Right Path), but He accepted their repentance. Certainly, He is unto them full of Kindness, Most Merciful. (09:117)

And those who believed, and emigrated and strove hard in the Cause of Allah (Al-Jihad), as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid - these are the believers in truth, for them is forgiveness and Rizqun Karim (a generous provision i.e. Paradise). (08:74)

What Allah gave as booty (Fai') to His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) from the people of the townships - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), the orphans, Al-Masakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allah; verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.
(And there is also a share in this booty) for the poor emigrants, who were expelled from their homes and their property, seeking Bounties from Allah and to please Him, and helping Allah (i.e. helping His religion) and His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم). Such are indeed the truthful (to what they say).
And (it is also for) those who, before them, had homes (in Al-Madinah) and had adopted the Faith, love those who emigrate to them, and have no jealousy in their breasts for that which they have been given (from the booty of Banu An-Nadir), and give them (emigrants) preference over themselves even though they were in need of that. And whosoever is saved from his own covetousness, such are they who will be the successful.
And those who came after them say: "Our Lord! Forgive us and our brethren who have preceded us in Faith, and put not in our hearts any hatred against those who have believed. Our Lord! You are indeed full of kindness, Most Merciful. (59:7-9)

Of course I can keep posting but I got bored of copying and pasting.  However, any neutral observer will notice how will you will need to explain how the verses you quoted aid your aqeedah while you will need to explain away how the verses I posted don't go against your aqeedah.  This is because it doesn't matter what the Qur'an says, you already have your mind made up.  You don't take the Qur'an as a guide, you only attempt to manipulate (and fail badly might I add) it to fit your narrative.

There is NO way, under any circumstances, ANY ONE could EVER come away with the Qur'an teaching the concept of infallible Imamate without first being exposed to it by external influences.  An organic reading of the Qur'an would never lead to a person believing in the concept of Imamate, which is of course why a lot of Shi'a clerics made the claim the Qur'an is a book of misguidance without the narrations of the Imams, i.e what is found in al-Kafi; so without al-Kafi, the Qur'an is a book of misguidance.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2021, 11:43:27 PM »
The verses I posted are clear as the verses you posted are clear. Quran is a book of guidance.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2021, 11:45:23 PM »
By the way, this "you shown some verses, I can show some verses" is cheap tactic, to not look at any verses. So what is Quran meant to be? A means of division that it can't prove anything?
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Adil

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2021, 09:00:05 AM »
Those verses have zero to do with shiaism.

Most of the "imams" had no authority. For example the 11th imam supposedly just sat under house arrest. He led no one, he had no authority, even his religious authority was minimal because he failed to tell Muslims about shiaism.

Likewise not everyone in the house of Ibrahim (as) has authority, so you are just imposing your own view on this to make it seem like it is about the imams. For example we can yet again use the 11th imam, he had brother called Jaafar I think, that brother was also from the family of Ibrahim (as) due to his blood but he has zero authority according to shias, in fact they even attack and mock him.

Bro everything big is in the Qur'an. Angels, Prophets, other pious people such as Maryam (as), there is even mention of a few evil people like Pharoah and Abu lahab. Imamism is the foundation of shiaism, but why is there no mention of the imams, their names or their lives? You will never be able to bring a direct verse talking about them. Think about this. Why is it so hard to prove the 12 imams concept? Whilst other things are so easy to prove from the Qur'an.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 09:14:18 AM by Adil »

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2021, 04:58:22 PM »
It's hard to prove only because of the nature of good and evil, the tree of light and cursed tree, and the sorcery and devils of Jinn and humans. Otherwise it's clear in the Quran like the verses I posted.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2021, 05:00:49 PM »
Whilst other things are so easy to prove from the Qur'an.

Nothing is easy to prove in the Quran. Take for example, day of judgment. A Bahai will twist every single verse and deny it being anything but about Baha'allah. He will never acknowledge the day of judgment for what it is.

When a human is stubborn and set, they will twist every verse in Quran. And for some reason, not due to Quran being unclear, but the way language works, you can twist every statement practically.

Even Tawhid, you see Salafis believe in parts of God like hands, face, etc and put them on level with God and the perfect absolute essence.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 05:03:35 PM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Khaled

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2021, 05:55:00 PM »
The verses I posted are clear as the verses you posted are clear. Quran is a book of guidance.

Yes, but they are both CLEARLY in opposition to your belief.  This is why I said "any neutral observer will notice how will you will need to explain how the verses you quoted aid your aqeedah while you will need to explain away how the verses I posted don't go against your aqeedah."

This is why your objection of ...

Quote
By the way, this "you shown some verses, I can show some verses" is cheap tactic, to not look at any verses. So what is Quran meant to be? A means of division that it can't prove anything?

...is invalid; because the verses that you posted and the verses I posted are in harmony, in harmony that there is nothing in the Qur'an that teaches a concept of infallible Imamate.

But lets look at the verses you posted anyway:

Quote
say: I ask you no reward regarding it except the love in the kin

I am going to skip past the discussion of whether إلا المودة في القربى is talking about "loving my family" or "be kind to me for my kinship with you."  While I agree with the second interpretation (which immediately disqualifies this verse from being Muhkam, and therefore a basis for your aqeedah because there are multiple interpretations, but I digress) I am going to accept that the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم here is asking us to love his family.  Well this brings up several point:

1) There is a consensus among Muslims that we must love his family.  In fact, the hadeeth أذكركم الله في أهل بيتي is a far clearer evidence to prove obligation to love the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's أهل البيت.
2) Who is القربى here?  Obviously this isn't Ahl Alkisaa' since that even that hadn't happened yet, nor had al-Hassan and al-Hussayn عليهما السلام ورضي الله عنهما been born, nor had Ali and Fatima عليهما السلام ورضي الله عنهما gotten married.  I can't imagine that you believe that the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم was preaching to Abu Jahal, Abu Lahab and the Meccans, "I don't want anything from you, I just want you to follow my infallible cousin, his infallible children, and his infallible grandchildren though one of his infallible children."
3) If you really believe what I said in point #2, then clearly the Meccans didn't understand that since they never gave Imam Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه any special status.  In fact, they had a chance to kill him when the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and Abu Bakr رضي الله عنه where together making the Hijra.  In addition, when Hind wanted to get revenge for the death of her Father, Uncle and Brother, she hired Wahshi to kill Hamza عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه, not Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه.
4) How do you exclude other members of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's Qurba?  Does this verse not include Hamza, al-Abbas, Jafar, Abu Talib, al-Haarith, Khadija, Zainab, Um Kalthood, Ruqqaya etc?
5) How does this verse prove infalliblity?
6) How does this verse prove leadership?
7) What does this verse have anything to do with your belief?

Lets see what else you got:

Quote
Say: What in terms of a reward do I ask regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)

Or do they envy the humans for what God has given them out of his grace? For indeed we gave the family of Ibrahim, the book, and wisdom and we gave them a great authority. (4:54)

Yeah, neither verse has anything to do with your belief.  Next...

Quote
O you who believe; obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess the Authority from you therefore if you dispute in a thing refer it to God and the Messenger,

We've already had this discussion before years ago, the fact that this is the best you got (when its a verse that unambiguously refutes the concept of infallible leadership) shows that your views are built on a very weak, maybe even non-existent foundation.

Here is a verse for you to reflect on:

The likeness of those who take (false deities as) Auliya' (protectors, helpers) other than Allah is the likeness of a spider who builds (for itself) a house; but verily, the frailest (weakest) of houses is the spider's house - if they but knew. (29:41)

It's hard to prove only because of the nature of good and evil, the tree of light and cursed tree, and the sorcery and devils of Jinn and humans. Otherwise it's clear in the Quran like the verses I posted.

I don't find my views hard to prove from the Qur'an; which was the point of my post in the first place.  Thanks for agreeing

كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2021, 12:14:12 AM »
Salam

We all choose between love of the tree of light or ego of Satan, this is a choice reciters of Quran have to make.

The way I understand it, is that Mohammad (S) like all other Messengers does not seek a reward. And the reward is from viewpoint of disbelievers accusing him of being a false Prophet. It's saying what would be a selfish reward if he is a false Prophet is in fact nothing but take a path to God if he is a true Prophet per verse 25:57.

And the verses in Surah Poets are saying, that which Messengers are accused of seeking as a reward is really something that is upon God to establish and do with true Messengers anyways.

What is the selfish rewards Messengers are accused of:

(1) Seeking to change the religion
(2) Morally landscape
(3) Moral superiority
(4) Control and Authority
(5) Fame
(6) Heightened above everyone else
And whether you acknowledge or not, because in the past Messengers would have Authority inherited in people related by blood, they are accused of that as well, to attempting to establish a monarchy.
So (7) Wanting to establish a monarchy and have authority inherited in their bloodline.

As for 7, it's because God chooses to put chosen ones in their bloodline so they are accused of that.

The Quran is saying from vantage point of disbelievers, he understands they would accuse them all of this, because, from the vantage that they are true Messengers, it's upon God to do all these things.

And so 42:23 is saying all the reward you accuse Mohammad (s) of seeking is really in reality just recognizing Mohammad (S) and his family (a) for who they are.

Combined with 25:57 it's saying the real reason why he is asking to love Mohammad (S) and his daughter and successors, is because they are the path to God and this is the way to God, the way to God and pleasing him is to give Mohammad (s) and his family high remembrance, honoring them, exalting them, following them, acknowledging them as the means to God and obeying them to obey God.

I'm glad we are having this discussion.

As for 4:54 it's obviously what contextualizes 4:59 and hence directly related to this issue. They go together those two verses.
 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 12:18:20 AM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2021, 12:17:02 AM »
And the reason why others are excluded, is because Quran emphasizes only on the chosen ones with respect to the chosen households.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2021, 12:50:27 AM »
I am going to skip past the discussion of whether إلا المودة في القربى is talking about "loving my family" or "be kind to me for my kinship with you."

The verse doesn't say any of those, it says "the kin" which suggests there always a special kin chosen by God. It includes Mohammad (s).

Also the love can't be for kinship or closeness, as these are abstract, but muwadatta is a type of love between humans that includes affection.

Just as it doesn't make sense to have compassion for closeness of God for example, it doesn't make sense to be either closeness or kinship for the same reason, as you can't have affection for relationships but only to living entities.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 01:01:16 AM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2021, 08:41:12 PM »
There is the aspect of "the reward" which has a whole theme in Quran, and there also the aspect of "the kin" which has a whole theme in Quran. But within the verse, it's obvious, that they the means of goodness and God considers the people with love in Al-Qurba as people of goodness who he appreciates and forgives.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: 4 Solid verses about Sunni-Shia dispute.
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2021, 04:08:55 PM »
As for when the verse was revealed, the general view which seems to have proof is that Medina verses can be revealed in Meccan Surahs and vice versa, over all Medina type Surahs can have some Meccan verses.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
4 Replies
1930 Views
Last post April 18, 2015, 12:47:21 AM
by Rationalist
1 Replies
949 Views
Last post May 10, 2016, 06:12:24 PM
by Abu Jasim Al-Salafi
0 Replies
795 Views
Last post October 26, 2017, 08:55:37 PM
by Link
23 Replies
2243 Views
Last post May 24, 2020, 01:36:00 AM
by Soccer