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Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.

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Rationalist

Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« on: March 20, 2017, 03:10:59 AM »
According to Link, Prophet Musa (as) had 12 successors and therefore this ummah must have 12 Calipahs.

The evidence he provides is this.

www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.



So the above states that there were 12 representatives and then they became Prophets.

So notice this was after Prophet  Haroon (as) became a Prophet.

So with this in mind we have Prophet Haroon (as) who the 12ers consider as the first successor. So now when we add the total it comes to 14, since history points that Yusha bin Nuh was the first successor after Prophet Musa (as).

So again the number now goes from 12 to 14. Any response to this Link?

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 04:08:48 AM »
You show me an example other then Aeron where a Messenger of God is sent and doesn't lead the people? What you are not understanding is that Moses could do the same job as conveying as Aeron, but Moses prayer is simple, he need Aeron to explain and be better at speech and conveying the truths because he will succeed him and make people in the words of Quran understand the words of Moses.

That is showing one of the wisdom of succession. It's because much of the masses are ignorant, and their is knot on the tongue of the Prophets due to the level of understanding of their people.

Aeron succeeding as implied by being a vizier (the next Authority who has same authority of the top person delegated to him, who when the top authority dies, becomes the Authority), he would elaborate and teaching the wonders of Moses words that people didn't understand but still are planted as seeds where they have some scent of it.

Aeron is the first successor. And in any language you can make generalizations of a group. But that is not even necessary here, because Aeron although was appointed to be a Prophet received his revelation to be revealed to humanity after he was already a vizier.

Talut was a King chosen by God even during time of an another Prophet, and Talut became a Messenger after and received a scripture to reveal to humanity after.

The reason was Yushua ibn Noon is not mentioned in Quran in this case is because he was not appointed.  There are many verses that show this aside from the chosen family themes, there is the verse "I have no control over anyone except me and my brother...." which would imply no one else existed in the nation who was following Moses at that time.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 06:06:06 AM »

Aeron is the first successor.

That's what I am pointing out. Prophet Haroon (as) + 12 Cheiftains equals 13 and not 12.

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 07:29:48 AM »
The covenant was regarding 12 people who succeed Moses. Aeron was the first successor of Moses and this even hinted with all the mention of the "mountain" taken over them in the covenant. Aeron means exalted mountain.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 06:28:03 PM »
So that equals 13 in total.

Hani

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 06:29:36 AM »
Thirteener-Shia.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 01:42:30 PM »
I don't know how to explain it further.

Why do you think Aeron is not one of the Twelve Captains of the covenant of Bani-Israel taken from Moses?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 06:49:08 PM »
Its based on the tafsir you used for evidence. It says the 12 were chosen as reps and then they became Prophets. With Prophet Haroon this isn't the case. He was a Prophet way and before this event. So that equals 13 and not 12.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 06:50:56 PM »
Thirteener-Shia.

They actually have a hadith which says there are 13 imams in total. One of their leaders made an attempt and added Imam Zayd to the list to make sure the total is 13.

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 10:50:54 PM »
Its based on the tafsir you used for evidence. It says the 12 were chosen as reps and then they became Prophets. With Prophet Haroon this isn't the case. He was a Prophet way and before this event. So that equals 13 and not 12.

Prophets are chosen as prophets before coming to this world.  However prophets receive revelation to be revealed to humanity at different times. 

But just to clarify this is not a Hadith from the prophet. 
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 11:54:46 PM »


Prophets are chosen as prophets before coming to this world.  However prophets receive revelation to be revealed to humanity at different times. 

But just to clarify this is not a Hadith from the prophet. 

But I am working off the evidence you posted right here.



www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.


Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 11:59:09 PM »
Also, Link this would actually match the 13 Imam concept found in the book of  Sulaym Bin Qays

Hadith 10, Kitab Sulaym bin Qays, page 42 says:

“…I said: “O Prophet of Allah, please tell me their names.” He replied: “My this son (he kept his hand on Hassan’s (a.s) heard), then after him my this son (and he kept his hand on the head of Husayn (a.s)) and then my this son’s son (again he put his hand on Husayn’s (a.s) heard), then his son whose name will be same as mine, whose name will be Muhammad. He will spread my knowledge and he will be the treasurer of Allah’s Message and O my brother, Ali will be born soon during your life time so give him my salaam”. Then he turned to Husayn (a.s) and said: “Very soon Muhammad I Ali will be borne in your life time – give him my salaam”. Then, O brother, all 12 Imams in your children” (i.e. 12 imams including Ali (a.s).) Then I asked: “O Messenger of Allah, tell me the names of all.” So he (S.A.W) uttered the name of each one individually…”




Hadith 14, Kitab Sulaym bin Qays, page 75 says:

“…Beware that Allah looked at the dwellers of the earth and He chose, me and then he looked again and He chose my brother Ali, my vizier. my successor, my caliph in my Ummah and the guardian of all faithfuls after me. So He made me a Prophet and Messenger and argument, and He sent Messages to me that I appoint Ali my brother, my trustee, my successor and my caliph in my Ummah after me.

Beware, he is the guardian of every faithful after me. Whoever keeps him friend, Allah will keep him friend, whoever bears enmity towards him, Allah will bear enmity towards him. Whoever loves him, Allah also will love him and whoever hates him, Allah will hate him. Only a faithful will love him and only a non-believer will hate him. He is, after me the Rabb of the earth and the dwellers of the earth and is Allah's kalimah taqwa and is the strong rope of Allah. Do you want to switch off the light of Allah with your mouth, though Allah is the Completor of His Light - the idolaters may not like it. The enemies of Allah want to diminish the light of my brother and Allah wants to complete this Noor.

O people, those of you who are present, pass this sermon to those who are not present. O Allah You be a Witness on all these

O people, Allah looked the third time, then after me. He chose my twelve successors from my ahlulbayt and these are all righteous people of my Ummah. In there, there are eleven Imams after my brother one by one. When one of them passes away the other one from them takes his place. Their example is like stars in the sky - when one star disappears the other rises because they are those Imams who guide and are guided and those who cheat them, their cheating does not effect them, and those that stop helping them, their stopping does not harm them. These are all Allah's authority on His earth and are witness over His creation. Whoever obeys them has obeyed Allah. Whoever disobeys them has disobeyed Allah. These are all with Quran and Quran is with them. They will not separate from Quran and Quran will not separate from them until they reach my Fountain.”

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 12:04:48 AM »


Prophets are chosen as prophets before coming to this world.  However prophets receive revelation to be revealed to humanity at different times. 

But just to clarify this is not a Hadith from the prophet. 

But I am working off the evidence you posted right here.



www.altafsir.com check Al-Suyuti, I posted:


وأخرج الطستي عن ابن عباس. أن نافع بن الأزرق قال له: أخبرني عن قوله عز وجل { اثني عشر نقيباً }. قال: اثني عشر وزيراً وصاروا أنبياء بعد ذلك.


Do you know something called generalizations in language?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2017, 12:18:44 AM »
Even you interpreted the tafsir that way.

According to tafsir Dar-Almanthur, by Al-Suyuti, Ibn Abbas says regarding the "Twelve Captains", "they became Prophets".  There is also a hadith that says from the Prophet, in the same book, that if children of Israel would of all succeeded had they followed Twelve Men. The author (Dar Al-Manthur) says that hadith is verified by verse 5:12.

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2017, 12:22:56 AM »
I'll repeat, do you know something called generalizations in language?

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 12:36:44 AM »
Regardless of the language, it still equals 13. We know that Prophet Harun (as) role came way before these 12 were appointed as leaders. He is not among them.

Hani

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 01:17:05 AM »
Al-Fayd al-Kashani, the top Shia interpreter of the Qur'an in his Tafsir wrote that the twelve were heads of their respective tribes, each one was charged with taking care of their people and representing them, they were all appointed at the same time (We know Shia don't accept 2 Imams at once). When they were sent to spy on their enemy, Musa (as) ordered them to keep what they saw as secret but ten of those twelve disobeyed and announced except Caleb and Joshua.

No succession, no infallibility, no leadership over humanity.

كفيلا أمينا شاهدا من كل سبط ينقب عن أحوال قومه ويفتش عنها ويعرف مناقبهم وقال الله إني معكم بالنصرة لئن أقمتم الصلاة وآتيتم الزكاة وآمنتم برسلي وصدقتموهم وعزرتموهم ونصرتموهم وقويتموهم وأقرضتم الله قرضا حسنا بالانفاق في سبيله لأكفرن عنكم سيئاتكم ولأدخلنكم جنات تجري من تحتها الأنهار فمن كفر منكم فقد ضل سواء السبيل قيل أمر الله بني إسرائيل بعد هلاك فرعون بمصر بأن يسيروا إلى أريحا من أرض الشام وكان يسكنها الجبابرة وقال إني كتبتها لكم قرارا وأمر موسى (عليه السلام) بأن يأخذ من كل سبط نقيبا يكون كفيلا على قومه بالوفاء بما أمروا به من الخروج إلى الجبابرة والجهاد وقائدا ورئيسا لهم فاختار النقباء وأخذ الميثاق على بني إسرائيل وتكفل لهم به وسار بهم فلما دنا من أرضهم بعث النقباء يتجسسون فرأوا اجراما عظاما وقوة فرجعوا وأخبروا موسى بذلك فأمرهم أن يكتموا ذلك فحدثوا بذلك قومهم الا كالب بن يوفنا من سبط يهودا ويوشع بن نون من سبط افرائيم بن يوسف وكانا من النقباء
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 01:18:50 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 01:47:13 AM »
A more insightful tafsir from a Shiite Scholar:


{ وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ ٱللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِيۤ إِسْرَآئِيلَ } تعريض بامّة محمّد (ص) لاخذ ميثاقهم لنقيبهم الّذى هو علىّ (ع) { وَبَعَثْنَا مِنهُمُ ٱثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيباً } يأمرونهم وينهونهم { وَقَالَ ٱللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ } فأشاهد منكم ما تفعلون { لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ ٱلصَّلاَةَ } بوصلها الى النّقباء (ع) { وَآتَيْتُمْ ٱلزَّكَاةَ } من كلّ شيءٍ حتّى من ميل قواكم الى مخالفة النّقباء (ع) { وَآمَنتُمْ بِرُسُلِي } الّذين منهم النّقباء (ع) { وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ } نصرتموهم وقوّيتموهم { وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ ٱللَّهَ قَرْضاً حَسَناً } من اصل المال بانفاقه فى سبيل الله، واصل القوى باضعافها بالعبادات والرّياضات، فانّ الزّكوة هى فضول المال الّتى هى حقّ الغير والقرض من اصل المال { لأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ } بزكوتكم وقرضكم { وَلأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا ٱلأَنْهَارُ } بصلوتكم وايمانكم وتعزيركم { فَمَن كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ } الميثاق للنّقباء (ع) والوعد عليه { مِنْكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ ٱلسَّبِيل } فتذكّروا يا امّة محمّد (ص) واوفوا بميثاقكم لعلىّ (ع) ولا تكفروا بعد الميثاق.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 01:52:19 AM »
That sounds dumber and more fabricated. However, it seems there's no consensus among Shia scholars on this lol.

By the way, this Tafsir your quoting by this nobody who calls himself Sultan `Ali Shah contains clear belief in Tahreef:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/12/10/sultan-ali-shah-and-tahreef/
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 01:57:11 AM »
That sounds dumber and more fabricated. However, it seems there's no consensus among Shia scholars on this lol.

By the way, this Tafsir your quoting by this nobody who calls himself Sultan `Ali Shah contains clear belief in Tahreef:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/12/10/sultan-ali-shah-and-tahreef/

The hadith from Salman Farsi from the Rasool is clear and it's proven by 1. Reason 2. Quran. 3. Supported by other hadiths including hadiths from Sunni sources like "how many successors will rule this nation? Rasool replied, "twelve", like that for the children of Israel"

Or "Had the children of Israel followed Twelve Men".

Or "There will be Twelve Rulers all of them from Quryash" (Bukhari)

etc....

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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