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Do we need the 12 Imams?

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Husayn

Do we need the 12 Imams?
« on: December 19, 2016, 09:21:17 PM »
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Link

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 12:22:16 AM »
This is a good topic. I will reply after I am done exams.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2016, 09:48:05 PM »
They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Let me give you quick things they can't access through their Imams. Prophetic-Seerah, Hadith grading, Proper Fiqh (W/O Taqiyyah), Tafsir-ul-Qur'an and Qira'aat.

The above are FUNDAMENTALS in Islam and they don't have access to any of it.

So to make your question worthwhile brother Husayn, you should ask: What information did we learn about God's Messenger (saw) through al-Jawad, how reliable are the narrations attributed to al-Jawad, what authentic Fiqh did we gain from al-Jawad, what's al-Jawad's interpretation for different Qur'anic verses, and how did al-Jawad teach Qur'anic recitation?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 09:51:19 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Solomon

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 01:05:36 AM »
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

muslim720

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 12:34:48 PM »
Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

What you did there, genius, was that you first gave us your own narrative and then you found a Qur'anic verse which somewhat (very vaguely) supports your narrative.  Classical Shia tactic!

Without your narrative preceding the (posting of the) verse, the understanding of it is completely different.  And this is exactly what you have done with Imamat.  You explain it and then try to show it from the Qur'an.  The methodology, you adopt, is upside down.  It has to be in the Qur'an for it to be explained.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 03:16:12 PM »
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

So why is shia hadith sciences, fiqh, tafsir, seerah, all such a mess & so weak & substandard to sunni scholarship?

Either the 'infallibles' failed or they were never infallible & the rafidha never actually truly followed them.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 12:01:57 AM »
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

A (hidden) guide who never guides his people for the last 1,100 years and leaving the task of guiding people to fallible scholars?

Isn't that irony that Allah s.w.t. sends to every people a guide (and it a must as you said) and yet the guide hids himself for more than 1,100 years and deprieve human being from guidance? Where is the grace of Allah as Twelvers always claim?

Solomon

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 02:09:06 AM »

A (hidden) guide who never guides his people for the last 1,100 years and leaving the task of guiding people to fallible scholars?

Isn't that irony that Allah s.w.t. sends to every people a guide (and it a must as you said) and yet the guide hids himself for more than 1,100 years and deprieve human being from guidance? Where is the grace of Allah as Twelvers always claim?
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).

For Prophet Musa(as) as he left people-
[Pickthal 28:21] So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 04:50:31 AM »

A (hidden) guide who never guides his people for the last 1,100 years and leaving the task of guiding people to fallible scholars?

Isn't that irony that Allah s.w.t. sends to every people a guide (and it a must as you said) and yet the guide hids himself for more than 1,100 years and deprieve human being from guidance? Where is the grace of Allah as Twelvers always claim?
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).

For Prophet Musa(as) as he left people-
[Pickthal 28:21] So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.

Who said that the imam could not leave people? Read my post again carefully.

The issue is that he is not guiding anybody, the task he is supposed to do. And this has been going on for more than a thousand years. Or else, the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Solomon

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 11:11:01 AM »

Who said that the imam could not leave people? Read my post again carefully.

The issue is that he is not guiding anybody, the task he is supposed to do. And this has been going on for more than a thousand years. Or else, the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.
Brother you talked about leaving the people to falliable scholars thatswhy I told Prophet/Imam can leave but anyways u know it.
Firstly,It's wrong he never guided. Infact Imam guided peoples ,even verbally, not only thru his 4 deputies during minor occultation but also during major occultation numerous incident of meeting of Imam with trustworthy grand scholars is in books.
Secondly,meeting with any one solely depends on Imam and that person's godliness.

Could you please tell how prophet(sawa) was mercy for all worlds? This will make this matter more clearer .
21:107" And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds."
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2016, 02:16:20 PM »

Who said that the imam could not leave people? Read my post again carefully.

The issue is that he is not guiding anybody, the task he is supposed to do. And this has been going on for more than a thousand years. Or else, the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Brother you talked about leaving the people to falliable scholars thatswhy I told Prophet/Imam can leave but anyways u know it.

I know what? Brother, clearly you failed to understand the point behind that statement. You arguing thing that I have no argument at all.

The whole point is about guidance. To make it clearer to you, error-free guidance. According to Twelvers, this guidance should and could only come from infallibles. But now you guys are relying on the fallibles. How can you be sure that the guidance from fallible scholars is free from error? If you can't, then the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Firstly,It's wrong he never guided. Infact Imam guided peoples ,even verbally, not only thru his 4 deputies during minor occultation but also during major occultation numerous incident of meeting of Imam with trustworthy grand scholars is in books.
Secondly,meeting with any one solely depends on Imam and that person's godliness.

Does that suit to what you call Allah's grace upon human being by sending infallible guide to people? You tell me.

Could you please tell how prophet(sawa) was mercy for all worlds? This will make this matter more clearer .
21:107" And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds."

Read these two ayat in Surah al-Anfal. They explain the verse you quoted.

8:32
وَإِذْ قَالُوا اللَّهُمَّ إِنْ كَانَ هَٰذَا هُوَ الْحَقَّ مِنْ عِنْدِكَ فَأَمْطِرْ عَلَيْنَا حِجَارَةً مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَوِ ائْتِنَا بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

And  [remember]  when  they  said,  "O Allah ,  if  this  should  be  the  truth  from  You,  then rain  down  upon  us  stones  from  the  sky  or  bring  us  a  painful  punishment."

8:33
وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَأَنْتَ فِيهِمْ ۚ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ مُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَهُمْ يَسْتَغْفِرُونَ

But Allah would  not  punish  them  while  you,  [O  Muhammad],  are  among  them,  and Allah would  not  punish  them  while  they  seek  forgiveness.

Solomon

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 01:32:13 AM »
I know what? Brother, clearly you failed to understand the point behind that statement. You arguing thing that I have no argument at all.

The whole point is about guidance. To make it clearer to you, error-free guidance. According to Twelvers, this guidance should and could only come from infallibles. But now you guys are relying on the fallibles. How can you be sure that the guidance from fallible scholars is free from error? If you can't, then the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Does that suit to what you call Allah's grace upon human being by sending infallible guide to people? You tell me.
We agreed that a prophet/Imam can leave the people , so brother, in that situation people have to look for scholars to access knowledge. If you are thinking continuous verbal & apparent guidance from Infalliable guide should be there then it will occur only when Imam will re-appear. When ever a prophet/Imam leaves the people its because of peoples being non supportive against tyrants so people have to suffer up till his reappearance form non-continuous verbal & apparent guidance.

As far as you brought the point of God's grace,for us imams(/prophet's) very existence on earth ,being God's grace, stop God's wrath on earth when numerous brutal crime is going on earth today and then also God left people with the door open for them towards truth.

If u or I didn't get the point please ask one line question so that I could clearly know ur exact point.
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Link

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2016, 03:44:19 AM »
One of the important hadiths from Imam Jewad is that the one who passively watches an oppression (does nothing to stop it), the one who supports an oppression, and the oppressor himself of that oppression....all are partners.

I believe most of the world problems would be solved if this hadith was acted upon for example.  If we all took responsibility of oppression and not just passively watched it, and felt we have no role in it.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Sheikh

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2016, 03:55:04 AM »
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?

Solomon

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2016, 05:49:34 AM »
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?
Yep brother ,Prophet(sawa) was in danger and then he left meccan people because of not having even minimum required number supportive people(ie- ppl of highest levels of faith) .
Same for Imam ali(as) for not having even minimum required number supportive people(ie- ppl of highest levels of faith) to fight against oppressive ppl.
As for Imam Hussain(as) he inteded towards kufa not for karbala(with women & children) but situation changed on the way & he was taken to karbala .Every action of imams is based on conditions and situations .

But when things come to Imam Mahdi(as) the oppressive rulers well knew that 12th Imam will rule over the world and all kingdom will be under his authority as per shias. So they left no chance to oppress 11th imam and they were not to leave any chance to eliminate 12th Imam as there whole government was in danger in same way as firon and namrod were doing before advent of musa(as) and ibrahim(as).
Lastly ,bro when those minimum number of shias with highest level of faith will be there at a time to which imam wants, who will be with imam when imam will break oppressive rulers of today then imam will reappear.......yes I will say most of shias r not of that level today though sign of reappearnce r geting fulfilled day by day.
"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla."

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2016, 05:55:51 AM »
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?

The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

Abu Muhammad

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2016, 11:07:46 PM »
The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

Not ready to return is not the reason for going into ghaybah in the first place. That's the reason for why he does not re-appear.

The very reason he went into ghaybah in the first place according to Twelvers was because he was afraid and freightened of being killed.

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2016, 11:09:21 PM »
The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

Not ready to return is not the reason for going into ghaybah in the first place. That's the reason for why he does not re-appear.

The very reason he went into ghaybah in the first place according to Twelvers was because he was afraid and freightened of being killed.

Yep, same way Isa (as) went into hiding, and Prophet Muhammad (saw), are they all cave dwelling  cowards too now?
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

Husayn

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2016, 11:22:46 PM »
Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Qizilbash_Safavid

Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2016, 11:35:24 PM »
Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

Bro r u serious? What has ur caliphs ever done? There is a video of a Sunni sheikh who became shia, one of his reasons was that there isn't 3 narrations of Abu bakr umar or uthman saying something, umar himself said "without Ali umar would have been destroyed"

And ur 4 Imams of ahle sunnah were students of Jafar Sadiq (As), don't ever say something that stupid again. Here's a nice quote By Abu bakr

"May Allah not put me in a position where I dont have access to Ali to solve it for me"
"If it were not for Ali, Umar would have been destroyed!" (said in 70 different occasions)
-Umar Ibn al Khattab

 

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