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Is reputation reliable?

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Khaled

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2020, 06:36:51 PM »
Salam

وعليكم السلام

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Mujareen and Ansar (original ones) are a very small minority of Muslims near the end of the Prophet's (s) life. They aren't majority.

Do you have a list of them?  Would people like Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, Talha, az-Zubayr, Abu Ubaydah, Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqaas, Abd Al-Rahman bin Awf, Sa'd ibn Ubadah be on that list?

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Fatima (s) speech rallied them, woke them up, and I believe for the most part they performed their duty.

What is the evidence that Fatima عليه السلام ورضي الله عنها gave that speech?
Who was rallied from the original Muhajiroon and Ansar?
What was the duty that they performed?

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The majority of people - who Ali (a) didn't want to fight with his small band of followers (original companions very few compared to how many Muslims are now there who fought or denied Mohammad (s) most of his Propethood) - were frankly ignorant of the Quran and Sunnah.   

So these Muslims, who are frankly ignorant of the Qur'an and Sunnah, were good enough to fight with and support the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but they were not good enough to do so with Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه?  That's a very strange explanation.

In addition, I limited the discussion to the Muhajiroon and Ansar, so we don't need to include the Tulaqaa', who are all ignorant of the Qur'an and Sunnah according to you.  As of right now, the discussion centers around the Muhajiroon and Ansar, what was their duty, and how you are able to verify that any of this happened.

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Majority of muhajareen and ansar were ready to fight if Ali (a) gave the orders, but he spared them their blood, and majority of the "Muslims" were people who fought Ali (a) and the first band of believers and who didn't understand Quran or Sunnah nor took the religion seriously.

All of this is problematic for several reasons:
1) What is the evidence for any of it?
2) Why would Imam Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه do things differently from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم?  Why would the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم include these people in his followers, but Imam Ali عليه السلام ورضي الله عنه exclude them?
3) Your takfeer of the majority of the Muslims during the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's time based solely on your interpretation of he events that happened 1400 years ago, based on a system of preserving history (Ilm al-Hadeeth) that you don't believe in.

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Moving on from Sahaba - discussion.

It seems we have yet to scratch the surface of that discussion.

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The circular reasoning is that all kinds of hadiths existed.  What we have left from what is written is also a very small amount compared to the original amount of hadiths and their diversity.

I don't see how that is circular reasoning, nor do I see any evidence that "all kinds of hadiths existed" but no longer exist.  A lot of hadeeth books were lost, but that was during the times of the Mongols, long after Sunnism was codified.  Obviously, modern day 12erism was codified more in the 1700-1800s and reinterpreted in the past 40 years, but that's an entirely different discussion. 

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Your last sentence: " Because one fits your preconceived narrative and the other one didn't." is ironic, because this what your system does. 

You will need to provide an example of this.  My examples of you doing it is believing in the Fadak Sermon without providing any reasons why.  Why do you believe this actually happened?  Did you do an analysis of its historicity, or is it just simply that it fits your belief so you accept it?

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It fits righteousness according to a belief system, but how do you know the belief system is right, well due to righteous men chain of reports, and how do you know they are righteous, well by what they report confirming a type of belief system.

No it doesn't, since a person could be Adl and Dabit even if he is considered non-Sunni.  Here are some quick examples:

عباد ابن يعقوب الرواجني بتخفيف الواو وبالجيم المكسورة والنون الخفيفة أبو سعيد الكوفي صدوق رافضي حديثه في البخاري مقرون بالغ ابن حبان فقال يستحق الترك من العاشرة مات سنة خمسين خ ت ق

لمازة بكسر اللام وتخفيف الميم وبالزاي ابن زباد بفتح الزاي وتثقيل الموحدة وآخره راء الأزدي الجهضمي أبو لبيد البصري صدوق ناصبي من الثالثة د ت ق

أحمد ابن عبدة ابن موسى الضبي أبو عبد الله البصري ثقة رمي بالنصب من العاشرة مات سنة خمس وأربعين م 4

إبراهيم ابن يعقوب ابن إسحاق الجوزجاني بضم الجيم الأولى وزاي وجيم نزيل دمشق ثقة حافظ رمي بالنصب من الحادية عشرة مات سنة تسع وخمسين د ت س

إسماعيل ابن موسى الفزاري أبو محمد أو أبو إسحاق الكوفي نسيب السدي أو ابن بنته أو ابن أخته صدوق يخطىء رمي بالرفض من العاشرة مات سنة خمس وأربعين عخ د ت ق

أيوب ابن عائذ بتحتانية ومعجمة ابن مدلج الطائي البحتري بضم الموحدة وسكون المهملة وضم المثناة الكوفي ثقة رمي بالإرجاء من السادسة خ م ت س

دينار ابن عمر الأسدي أبو عمر البزار آخره راء الكوفي الأعمى صالح الحديث رمي بالرفض من السادسة بخ ق

عبد الله ابن عبد القدوس التميمي السعدي الكوفي صدوق رمي بالرفض وكان أيضا يخطىء من التاسعة خت ت

غالب ابن الهذيل الأودي [أبو الهذيل] الكوفي صدوق رمي بالرفض من الخامسة س

هارون ابن سعد العجلي أو الجعفي الكوفي الأعور صدوق رمي بالرفض ويقال رجع عنه من السابعة م
[/size]

That should be a small enough list to show you that what you have been taught about Ilm ar-Rijal isn't accurate.

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You don't take seriously the many (very many) chains naming the 12 Imams seriously. Think about the reason why... so the amount of hadiths and chains doesn't prove 12 Imams to you.

It has more - to do with - what you just said "Because one fits your preconceived narrative and the other one didn't."

There are a host of reasons why I don't take those chains seriously, and it is not because I'm not 12er.  Even 12ers don't take those chains seriously and reject them, because they are not reliable.  Had they been authentically reported from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم we wouldn't have Shi'as differing ever time an Imam died.  Even the closest to the Imams, according to the 12er narrative, didn't know the successor.  Rejecting these reports has nothing to do with Ilm al-Hadeeth or preconceived narratives, its based on them being obvious later fabrication.

However, if you would like, we can go through the chains and see just how reliable they are together.
 
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And we see this clearly the case. For example,  a person narrates, Fatima (a) house was lit on fire, he is automatically flagged unreliable just for narrating that.

Someone narrates Imam Baqir (a) did a miracle - automatically flagged unreliable and liar.

This is just an empty claim until we actually see proof.  هاتوا برهانكم إن كنتم صادقين

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The system is so chaotically bias, to lead one way, and so yes, it leads that way. It's circular defined to collect "authetnic" hadiths from all sorts of narrators narrating what is already believed in.

It's not there didn't exist numerous hadiths contradicting that or even more hadiths than ones "collaborating" each other.

As we have seen time and time again from you:
1) You claim something is circular without actually showing why that is.
2) You make claims about how Adalah is defined in hadeeth science despite it not coinciding with reality.
3) You completely ignore anything about Dabt, and turn a system that verifies its reports through corroboration into simply "all sorts of narrators narrating what is already believed in."
4) You make the claim that Ahl al-Hadeeth accepted hadeeths based on what they already believed in, rather than believing what they believe the authentic reports show, despite the fact they rejected ALL ahadeeth praising Mu'awiyah, accepted more reports praising Imam Ali رضي الله عنه than anyone else, accepted all kinds of reports that praise Ahl al-Bayt, all kinds of reports that disparage the Sahaba, and rejecting reports that say the Qur'an is Ghayr Makhlooq, and every report disparaging deviant sects except for the Khawarij.

Just face it, your narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2020, 08:42:51 PM »
The discussion should move on and be centered around "can every issue pertaining to guidance be verified in Quran?" and "what is the role of the hadiths and Sunnah with respect to Quran if ilmel rijaal is unreliable?".

I feel getting into a whole discussion about a system that has not a single verse to support it from Quran nor a hadith, is fruitless, and as if Quran doesn't tell us in detail how to approach studying Quran and Sunnah but rather this is a false lie scholars of both sects attribute to God. We been doing it for centuries (some people at least) this ilmel rijaal none-sense and it won't lead to guidance.

These two questions will answer your constant questioning and also prove all sects of Islam apparent today to be in error and their methodology to be false and not lead to truth.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 08:46:23 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Khaled

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2020, 11:40:52 PM »
The discussion should move on and be centered around

I think its unfortunate that you chose to ignore everything I wrote.  I think this seems to imply that you don't have an answer to the questions I posed.  Since this is the course you have decided to take, I would still love to know how and why you chose to accept the Sermon of Fadak as authentic.  I would also love to go through the chains of the ahadeeth  regarding the names of the Imams to see if the reason I reject them is preconceived, or is just simply the logical conclusion that any non-sectarian would reach after investigating the reports.

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"can every issue pertaining to guidance be verified in Quran?"

The general consensus seems to be that everything is found in the Qur'an, its just the details maybe ascertained through Ahadeeth, Qiyaas, Ijmaa' and other means like the Amal of Ahl al-Madeena etc.  Some scholars, like al-Ghazali and ar-Razi, stated that we must also learn logic or else our understanding of all these things will be futile.

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and "what is the role of the hadiths and Sunnah with respect to Quran if ilmel rijaal is unreliable?".

Of course I don't believe Ilm ar-Rijal is unreliable, but if it was proven to be, then it would have no value.

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I feel getting into a whole discussion about a system that has not a single verse to support it from Quran nor a hadith, is fruitless,

You do raise a good point, why should we get into a discussion about infallible Imams if such a concept is absent from the Qur'an.

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and as if Quran doesn't tell us in detail how to approach studying Quran and Sunnah but rather this is a false lie scholars of both sects attribute to God.

I don't know of any Muslim scholar, Sunni or Shi'a, who claims that the "Quran doesn't tell us in detail how to approach studying Quran and Sunnah."  That is a "false lie" that is purported by you, unfortunately.

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We been doing it for centuries (some people at least) this ilmel rijaal none-sense and it won't lead to guidance.

Instead of empty slogans, a better approach would be, to tell us how we can verify the Sunnah if Ilm ar-Rijaal is "none-sense (sp)."  I showed that your understanding of Ilm ar-Rijal was lacking at best, so therefore you need to bring a better argument than "it is circular" and it is "none-sense" in order to convince anybody.  Especially considering you didn't address the examples of non-Sunnis having tawtheeq, nor did you address the concept of Dabt.  You have a lot on your plate, but seeing how this discussion has gone so far, my guess is you'll just completely ignore everything I said, and accuse everyone of lying and being under the spell of sorcery.

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These two questions will answer your constant questioning and also prove all sects of Islam apparent today to be in error and their methodology to be false and not lead to truth.

So what you are saying is that ALL Muslims, except for you, are "in error" and that "their methodology" is "false and" will "not lead to truth"?  بارك الله فيك, but please clarify
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2020, 11:49:13 PM »
You are not letting me answer your questions and you are denying what you know is true and denying what is well known.   The Quran shows as far convincing people, Pharaoh won, and people accused Moses as being a sorcerer, even though inwardly they knew he was right.

You don't want to learn, you want to argue. Even Moses lost like that. 

I told you answering these two questions (in detail), would answer your queries. But you can stick to your sect and your people.

I don't care about Shiites or their religion, that is why I abandoned their clergy and false ways.   I choose God over conjecture of people who will not avail me anything.

Muslims choose to be blind despite a book providing insights. They are a cursed people worthy of God's wrath. Stick to them in whatever way you like.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2020, 12:00:06 AM »
just completely ignore everything I said, and accuse everyone of lying and being under the spell of sorcery.

What is ironic, is that this how Quran approaches it.  It was never the case that God did not clarify what people must do to remain guided and divisions from the rope of God only occur AFTER KNOWLEDGE when people envy each other and rebel against one another out of hate of God's light and out of clinging to the cursed tree and thereby hating the blessed tree.

The knowledge and simple clear way - is always belittled - due to sorcery. Not only is Quran clear about Ahlulbayt, it has repeated them through out it's pages but it is exactly the sorcery that not only keeps people from perceiving them but so many other clear insights and proofs repeated through out the Quran including the promise of God trying humanity with one more test - through a sent one from him - that if people reject his message, will be destroyed and all cities are under this threat, before the day of judgment.

By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2020, 12:07:09 AM »
The Quran talks about itself as a book of signs, proofs, and insights - but that there is a curse sorcery with respect to it. It encourages us to reflect and seek the family of the reminder for proofs including seeking miracles from them (and both contexts of the two verses in this respect including asking for clear proofs in form of miracles).

We are in drought - where there is no live miracles in the open, the truth becoming no longer uppermost, God's word belittled, and evils looking beautiful while virtues looking ugly.

The Quran shows that nothing ever prevents God from sending with signs in form of miracles except the first ones denied them.

Miracles are a great part of Quran, and the tone is obvious they were meant to stay. If they are gone for the latter ones , the former ones didn't accept the miracles for certain.

Again, we can discuss religion to death and many people have done that.

You don't want to discuss dark magic with respect to Quran, yet Quran talks about that, but has not mentioned a word confirming any of the methodology of your complicated ilmel rijaal conjecture system but rather has shown the opposite - that it's unreliable.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 12:10:05 AM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2021, 10:32:32 PM »
Salam

Reputation is unreliable so much so that the Prophet (s) was unknown in terms of even being great:

وَقَالُوا لَوْلَا نُزِّلَ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنُ عَلَىٰ رَجُلٍ مِنَ الْقَرْيَتَيْنِ عَظِيمٍ

And they said, ‘Why was not this Quran sent down to some great man from the two cities?’

The response by God was:

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ ۗ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

Your Lord creates whatever He wishes and chooses: they have no choice. Immaculate is Allah and exalted above [having] any partners that they ascribe [to Him].

And this was not the first time God has chosen a person:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَىٰ آدَمَ وَنُوحًا وَآلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَآلَ عِمْرَانَ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ

Indeed God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran over the worlds.

And such families were when his named was remembered therein and his light found in:

فِي بُيُوتٍ أَذِنَ اللَّهُ أَنْ تُرْفَعَ وَيُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ فِيهَا بِالْغُدُوِّ وَالْآصَالِ


In houses/families Allah has allowed to be raised and wherein His Name is remembered; He is glorified therein, morning and evening,

Who peace was upon:

قُلِ الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ وَسَلَامٌ عَلَىٰ عِبَادِهِ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَىٰ ۗ آللَّهُ خَيْرٌ أَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

Say the praise is to God and peace is upon the servants that he has chosen, is God better or what they associate?

And who were means of tranquility:


وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ آيَةَ مُلْكِهِ أَنْ يَأْتِيَكُمُ التَّابُوتُ فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسَىٰ وَآلُ هَارُونَ تَحْمِلُهُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ


And their prophet said to them, ‘Indeed the sign of his authority shall be that the Ark will come to you, bearing tranquility from your Lord and remaining that was left behind by the House of Moses and the House of Aaron, carried by the angels. There is indeed a sign in that for you, should you be believers.’

And God knows where best to put his message:

وَإِذَا جَاءَتْهُمْ آيَةٌ قَالُوا لَنْ نُؤْمِنَ حَتَّىٰ نُؤْتَىٰ مِثْلَ مَا أُوتِيَ رُسُلُ اللَّهِ ۘ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ حَيْثُ يَجْعَلُ رِسَالَتَهُ ۗ سَيُصِيبُ الَّذِينَ أَجْرَمُوا صَغَارٌ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَعَذَابٌ شَدِيدٌ بِمَا كَانُوا يَمْكُرُونَ


And when a sign came to them, they said, 'We will not believe until we are given the like of what God's Messengers were given.' God knows very well where to place His Message; and humiliation in God's sight shall befall the wicked, and a terrible chastisement, for what they devised.

And forbid others to attribute purity to humans and Jinn without proof:

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ يُزَكُّونَ أَنْفُسَهُمْ ۚ بَلِ اللَّهُ يُزَكِّي مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا



Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah attributes purity to whom He pleases; and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.

And argued that soothsayers had no right to claim such status of piety to other humans:

الَّذِينَ يَجْتَنِبُونَ كَبَائِرَ الْإِثْمِ وَالْفَوَاحِشَ إِلَّا اللَّمَمَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ وَاسِعُ الْمَغْفِرَةِ ۚ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِكُمْ إِذْ أَنْشَأَكُمْ مِنَ الْأَرْضِ وَإِذْ أَنْتُمْ أَجِنَّةٌ فِي بُطُونِ أُمَّهَاتِكُمْ ۖ فَلَا تُزَكُّوا أَنْفُسَكُمْ ۖ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ

Those who avoid major sins and indecencies, apart from [minor and occasional] lapses. Indeed your Lord is expansive in [His] forgiveness. He knows you best since [the time] He produced you from the earth and since you were fetuses in the bellies of your mothers. So do not attribute purity to yourselves: He knows best those who fear him.

And revealed the Quran with intent to only attribute purity to Mohammad and his family:

 إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Allah only desires to repel all impurity from you, O People of the Household, and purify you with a thorough purification.

And who have the station to be blessed with the Prophet:

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

Indeed Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who have faith! Invoke blessings on him and invoke Peace upon him in a worthy manner.

And the way God does it:

سَلاَمٌ عَلَىٰ آلِ يَاسِينَ

Peace be upon the family of Yaseen

And Yaseen is Mohammad (s), one of the sent ones:

يس
Ya Seen.

وَالْقُرْآنِ الْحَكِيمِ
I swear by the wise Quran

إِنَّكَ لَمِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ

you are indeed one of the sent ones

Sent not only as Messenger and Prophet but as a witness and caller to God:


يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ شَاهِدًا وَمُبَشِّرًا وَنَذِيرًا
O Prophet! Indeed We have sent you as a witness, as a bearer of good news and as a warner

وَدَاعِيًا إِلَى اللَّهِ بِإِذْنِهِ وَسِرَاجًا مُنِيرًا

And a caller to God by God's permission, and a radiant lamp.

And he was not sent alone but another witness sent with him:

أَفَمَنْ كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّهِ وَيَتْلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ مِنْهُ وَمِنْ قَبْلِهِ كِتَابُ مُوسَىٰ إِمَامًا وَرَحْمَةً ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِهِ ۚ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِهِ مِنَ الْأَحْزَابِ فَالنَّارُ مَوْعِدُهُ ۚ فَلَا تَكُ فِي مِرْيَةٍ مِنْهُ ۚ إِنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Is he who stands on a manifest proof from his Lord, and whom a witness from him follows? And before him there was the Book of Musa a leader and mercy. It is they who have faith in it, and whoever defies him from among the factions, the Fire is their tryst. So do not be in doubt about it; it is the truth from your Lord, but most people do not have faith.

And such witnesses according to the next verse will testify on the day of judgment:

وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ يُعْرَضُونَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ وَيَقُولُ الْأَشْهَادُ هَٰؤُلَاءِ الَّذِينَ كَذَبُوا عَلَىٰ رَبِّهِمْ ۚ أَلَا لَعْنَةُ اللَّهِ عَلَى الظَّالِمِينَ


Who is a greater wrongdoer than him who fabricates a lie against Allah? Such shall be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, ‘It is these who lied against their Lord.’ Behold! The curse of Allah is upon the wrongdoers


And such witnesses are those who God's favor to humanity is regarding:

وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَالصِّدِّيقِينَ وَالشُّهَدَاءِ وَالصَّالِحِينَ ۚ وَحَسُنَ أُولَٰئِكَ رَفِيقًا

Whoever obeys Allah and the Messenger, they are with those whom Allah has favored (humanity with his religion) regarding from the prophets and the truthful, the witnesses and the righteous, and excellent companions are they!

And every people has such a witness among them:

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا جِئْنَا مِنْ كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ بِشَهِيدٍ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ عَلَىٰ هَٰؤُلَاءِ شَهِيدًا

So how shall it be, when We bring a witness from every people and We bring you as a witness to these?

Who are the leaders of the people of their time:


يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا

The day We shall summon every group of people along with their leader, then whoever is given his book in his right hand—they will read it, and they will not be wronged so much as a single date-thread.

And such leaders are the chosen ones after Mohammad (s) and God with respect to his servants is seeing, aware:


وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ هُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِعِبَادِهِ لَخَبِيرٌ بَصِيرٌ

And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing.

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مُقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ

Then we inherited the book to those who we chosen of our servants so of them (ie. servants) is he who is oppressive towards himself, and who is on a middle course and who races ahead of all in good deeds, that is the great superiority.

Chosen from those who race ahead of all in good deeds, he chose them with Mohammad (s):

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive for the sake of Allah a striving which is worthy of Him. He has chosen you and has not placed for you any hardship in the religion, the faith of your father, Abraham. He named you submitters before, and in this, so that the Messenger may be a witness to you, and that you may be witnesses to humanity. So maintain the prayer, give the zakat, and hold fast to Allah. He is your master—an excellent master and an excellent helper.

And such Guides have signs and proofs in form of miracles:

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been revealed regarding him from his Lord? You are only a warner and for every people, there is a guide.


Signs which soothsayers don't have:

أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ ۖ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُمْ بِسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ

Do they have a ladder [leading up to heaven] whereby they hear? If so, let their listener produce a manifest authority.

And if anyone has authority given to Adam (a) and the successors of Adam (a) let them bring a proof:

أَمْ لَهُمْ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا ۖ فَلْيَرْتَقُوا فِي الْأَسْبَابِ

Or Do they have authority of the heavens and earth and what is between them so let ascend by means.

Proof of clear authority, like the Quran is for Ahlulbayt (a):


أَمْ لَكُمْ سُلْطَانٌ مُبِينٌ


Do you have a manifest authority?

فَأْتُوا بِكِتَابِكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ


Then bring your scripture, should you be truthful.


The book goes with Ahlulbayt (a) and Ali (a):

النَّبِيُّ أَوْلَىٰ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ ۖ وَأَزْوَاجُهُ أُمَّهَاتُهُمْ ۗ وَأُولُو الْأَرْحَامِ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلَىٰ بِبَعْضٍ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمُهَاجِرِينَ إِلَّا أَنْ تَفْعَلُوا إِلَىٰ أَوْلِيَائِكُمْ مَعْرُوفًا ۚ كَانَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَسْطُورًا

The Prophet has more Wilayah over believers then themselves and his wives are their mothers and the holders of kinship, some of them have more Wilayah then others, in the book of God from the believers and emigrants, only that you act towards your Awliya (Masters) with goodness, this is in the book is written.

And it's a covenant written in Quran about his family and taken by the Prophet (s) just as past Prophets (a) took with their people:

وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ مِيثَاقَهُمْ وَمِنْكَ وَمِنْ نُوحٍ وَإِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ ۖ وَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُمْ مِيثَاقًا غَلِيظًا

And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant

A covenant by which he rewards the honest to themselves and punishes the disbelievers:

لِيَسْأَلَ الصَّادِقِينَ عَنْ صِدْقِهِمْ ۚ وَأَعَدَّ لِلْكَافِرِينَ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا

That he may ask the truthful about their truthfulness and has prepared the disbelievers a painful punishment.

A covenant taken by Musa (a) in the past with respect to the Messengers after him:

لَقَدْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ رُسُلًا ۖ كُلَّمَا جَاءَهُمْ رَسُولٌ بِمَا لَا تَهْوَىٰ أَنْفُسُهُمْ فَرِيقًا كَذَّبُوا وَفَرِيقًا يَقْتُلُونَ

Certainly We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We sent Messengers to them. Whenever a Messenger brought them that which was not to their liking, they would deny some, and some they would slay.

And not only did God take a covenant with the family of Harun (a) who were the Messenger, but showed the number of the family of Musa (a) and Harun (a) with respect to successors:

وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا ۖ وَقَالَ اللَّهُ إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ ۖ لَئِنْ أَقَمْتُمُ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَيْتُمُ الزَّكَاةَ وَآمَنْتُمْ بِرُسُلِي وَعَزَّرْتُمُوهُمْ وَأَقْرَضْتُمُ اللَّهَ قَرْضًا حَسَنًا لَأُكَفِّرَنَّ عَنْكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَلَأُدْخِلَنَّكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ فَمَنْ كَفَرَ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ مِنْكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَاءَ السَّبِيلِ


Certainly Allah took a pledge from the children of Israel, and We raised among them twelve Captains And Allah said, ‘I am with you! Surely, if you maintain the prayer and give the zakat and have faith in My Messengers and support them and lend Allah a good loan, I will surely absolve you of your misdeeds, and I will surely admit you into gardens with streams running in them. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the right way.’

Captains as "by the name of God is it's sailing and anchoring..." and who were one way from one perspective, split into twelve ways from another:

وَمِنْ قَوْمِ مُوسَىٰ أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ
And of Musa's people was a way/course who guided (people) with the truth, and thereby did they do justice.


وَقَطَّعْنَاهُمُ اثْنَتَيْ عَشْرَةَ أَسْبَاطًا أُمَمًا ۚ وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ إِذِ اسْتَسْقَاهُ قَوْمُهُ أَنِ اضْرِبْ بِعَصَاكَ الْحَجَرَ ۖ فَانْبَجَسَتْ مِنْهُ اثْنَتَا عَشْرَةَ عَيْنًا ۖ قَدْ عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُنَاسٍ مَشْرَبَهُمْ ۚ وَظَلَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الْغَمَامَ وَأَنْزَلْنَا عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَنَّ وَالسَّلْوَىٰ ۖ كُلُوا مِنْ طَيِّبَاتِ مَا رَزَقْنَاكُمْ ۚ وَمَا ظَلَمُونَا وَلَٰكِنْ كَانُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ يَظْلِمُونَ

We split them up into twelve branches as ways/courses, and We revealed to Moses, when his people asked him for water, [saying], ‘Strike the rock with your staff,’ whereat twelve springs gushed forth from it. Every people came to know its drinking-place. And We shaded them with clouds, and We sent down to them manna and quails: ‘Eat of the good things We have provided you.’ And they did not wrong Us, but they used to wrong [only] themselves

And twelve places to drink were twelve after Musa (a), no less, no more, and this is the upright religion:



إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ ۚ فَلَا تَظْلِمُوا فِيهِنَّ أَنْفُسَكُمْ ۚ وَقَاتِلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ كَافَّةً كَمَا يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ كَافَّةً ۚ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ

Indeed the number of luminaries to be turned to for enlightenment (after Mohammad) is twelve the day God created the heavens and earth, four of them are sacred that is the upright religion so do not wrong yourselves with respect to them and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together.


And delaying Ali (a) or any Imam (a) is disbelief and would violate the sacred number made by God:

إِنَّمَا النَّسِيءُ زِيَادَةٌ فِي الْكُفْرِ ۖ يُضَلُّ بِهِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُحِلُّونَهُ عَامًا وَيُحَرِّمُونَهُ عَامًا لِيُوَاطِئُوا عِدَّةَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ فَيُحِلُّوا مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ ۚ زُيِّنَ لَهُمْ سُوءُ أَعْمَالِهِمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ


Postponing (of such a luminary) is only an addition in unbelief, wherewith those who disbelieve are led astray, violating it with respect to one generic and keeping it sacred with anther generic, that they may fit with a number that Allah has made sacred, and thus violate what Allah has made sacred; the evil of their doings is made adornment  to them; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.

And the if they went straight:

وَأَنْ لَوِ اسْتَقَامُوا عَلَى الطَّرِيقَةِ لَأَسْقَيْنَاهُمْ مَاءً غَدَقًا


And that if they should keep to the (right) way, We would certainly give them to drink of abundant water,

Just as Bani-Israel would have had it had they kept straight:


وَإِذِ اسْتَسْقَىٰ مُوسَىٰ لِقَوْمِهِ فَقُلْنَا اضْرِبْ بِعَصَاكَ الْحَجَرَ ۖ فَانْفَجَرَتْ مِنْهُ اثْنَتَا عَشْرَةَ عَيْنًا ۖ قَدْ عَلِمَ كُلُّ أُنَاسٍ مَشْرَبَهُمْ ۖ كُلُوا وَاشْرَبُوا مِنْ رِزْقِ اللَّهِ وَلَا تَعْثَوْا فِي الْأَرْضِ مُفْسِدِينَ


And when Moses prayed for water for his people, We said, ‘Strike the rock with your staff.’ Thereat twelve fountains gushed forth from it; every tribe came to know its drinking-place. ‘Eat and drink of Allah’s provision, and do not act wickedly on the earth, causing corruption.’


Fountains and springs which were a cure to the hard heart:

ثُمَّ قَسَتْ قُلُوبُكُمْ مِنْ بَعْدِ ذَٰلِكَ فَهِيَ كَالْحِجَارَةِ أَوْ أَشَدُّ قَسْوَةً ۚ وَإِنَّ مِنَ الْحِجَارَةِ لَمَا يَتَفَجَّرُ مِنْهُ الْأَنْهَارُ ۚ وَإِنَّ مِنْهَا لَمَا يَشَّقَّقُ فَيَخْرُجُ مِنْهُ الْمَاءُ ۚ وَإِنَّ مِنْهَا لَمَا يَهْبِطُ مِنْ خَشْيَةِ اللَّهِ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ


Then your hearts hardened after that; so they are like stones, or even harder. For there are some stones from which streams gush forth, and there are some of them that split, and water issues from them, and there are some that fall for the fear of Allah. And Allah is not oblivious of what you do.

And the miracles of Musa and his staff were not enough to make them fear Allah (swt) with respect to his twelve successors:

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مِيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً ۖ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَنْ مَوَاضِعِهِ ۙ وَنَسُوا حَظًّا مِمَّا ذُكِّرُوا بِهِ ۚ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىٰ خَائِنَةٍ مِنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِنْهُمْ ۖ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَاصْفَحْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ


But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).


As a result of denial of guides who perform such miracles, there were a period without a Guide in public:

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَنْ نُرْسِلَ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا أَنْ كَذَّبَ بِهَا الْأَوَّلُونَ ۚ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُوا بِهَا ۚ وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالْآيَاتِ إِلَّا تَخْوِيفًا


Nothing kept Us from sending signs except that the former peoples denied them. We gave Thamud the she-camel as an eye-opener, but they wronged her. We do not send the signs except as to cause fear.

As such the Guide like Elyas (a) during period between Isa (a) and Mohammad (s) is not in public now:

وَيَقُولُونَ لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۖ فَقُلْ إِنَّمَا الْغَيْبُ لِلَّهِ فَانْتَظِرُوا إِنِّي مَعَكُمْ مِنَ الْمُنْتَظِرِينَ


They say, ‘Why has not a sign regarding him been revealed from his Lord?’ Say, ‘the hiding/hidden is only up to Allah. So wait. I too am waiting along with you.’


So let's patiently wait and pray to be guided by the hands of the Guide of our time.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2021, 10:40:30 PM »
Where in the book of God?

See the post above me, and there many more verses and ways to prove this.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

 

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