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Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"

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confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2018, 04:44:30 PM »
is it true that Mujalid bin Saeed was only weakened due to him being shia?

Hani

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2018, 05:24:54 AM »
is it true that Mujalid bin Saeed was only weakened due to him being shia?

No, they narrate from a ton of reliable people who are Shia. This man's reports are usually very weak, I've seen quite a few of his narrations that are very odd that I'd accuse him of fabrication to be honest.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2018, 05:25:37 AM »
I'm working on a video that will explain the origin of Shia.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Haqq786

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2018, 10:03:47 PM »
Farid quoted and stated:

"Quote
As for the second report, my friend claims that the Imams ruled over their own followers so the second hadith still applies.

They didn't. Nine Imams issued religious rulings but never ruled. They had no authority over the people. There are no instances of them applying hudood for example.

They couldn't apply hudood because that would have clashed with the "supposed" rulers of their time.

It would have meant inviting trouble. Theerefore, they were excused in that regard. As for the general authority, they ruled over their followers in whatever was feasible.

Anyhow, the fact is that the 12 Imams were appointed and we have supporting evidence for that.

Al-Qazzaz al-Qummi has compiled a book with reports about them. Together they add weight to the matter.

As for your twelve Leaders, where are you proofs regarding them? Assumptions?

iceman

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2018, 12:16:09 AM »
I'm working on a video that will explain the origin of Shia.

Please do and by all means. Also enlighten people with your own faith and belief. Who you are and what you stand for. Don't be hesitant or shy and constantly hide behind the rant about Shias.

iceman

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2018, 12:28:12 AM »
The famous Prophetic narrations of ’12 Caliphs’ or ’12 Emirs’ are mentioned in many books of Hadith including Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim:

يَكُونُ اثْنَا عَشَرَ أَمِيرًا – فَقَالَ كَلِمَةً لَمْ أَسْمَعْهَا فَقَالَ أَبِى إِنَّهُ قَالَ – كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ.

Jaber Ibn Samorah said I went to the Prophet (P) and I heard him saying: “There will be 12 Emirs”- then the Prophet (P) said something that I did not hear so I asked my father about it and he said, the Prophet (P) added: “they are all from Qoraysh.” (Bukhari, Hadith No. 7222).

عَنْ جَابِرِ بْنِ سَمُرَةَ قَالَ دَخَلْتُ مَعَ أَبِي عَلَى النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَسَمِعْتُهُ يَقُول: إِنَّ هَذَا الْأَمْرَ لَا يَنْقَضِي حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ فِيهِمْ اثْنَا عَشَرَ خَلِيفَةً . قَالَ : ثُمَّ تَكَلَّمَ بِكَلَامٍ خَفِيَ عَلَيَّ . قَالَ : فَقُلْتُ لِأَبِي : مَا قَالَ ؟ قَالَ : كُلُّهُمْ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ.

Jaber Ibn Samorah said I went to the Prophet (P) and I heard him saying: “Indeed this matter will not be completed until there will be 12 Caliphs amongst them.” He then added something softly that I did not hear, so I asked my father about it who said: The Prophet (P) said: “They are all from Qoraysh.” (Muslim, Hadith No. 1821, Book of leadership).

The above narration has been one of the most mysterious narrations for Sunni scholars. Al-Nawawi; the most famous interpreter of Sahih Muslim, who while quoting from many scholars regarding the meaning of the abovementioned Hadith, quotes from al-Qadi A’yadh who suggested:

و يحتمل أن يكون المراد مستحقي الخلافة العادلين ، وقد مضى منهم من عُلم ، ولا بد مِن تمام هذا العدد قبل قيام الساعة

“And it is possible that it is meant for those just people who deserve the Caliphate, and some of them who are known have already passed and the rest must come before the Resurrection Day.” (Sharh Muslim vol.12 p.202)

Ibn Kathir; the famous Sunni Imam of Hadith and historian says:

ومعنى هذا الحديث البشارة بوجود اثني عشر خليفة صالحًا ، يقيم الحق ويعدل فيهم ، ولا يلزم من هذا تواليهم وتتابع أيامهم ، بل قد وجد منهم أربعة على نَسَق ، وهم الخلفاء الأربعة: أبو بكر ، وعمر ، وعثمان ، وعلي ، رضي الله عنهم ، ومنهم عمر بن عبد العزيز بلا شك عند الأئمة ، وبعض بني العباس. ولا تقوم الساعة حتى تكون ولايتهم لا محالة ، والظاهر أن منهم المهدي المبشر به في الأحاديث الواردة بذكره

“This Hadith is a glad tiding that there will be 12 righteous Caliphs (after the holy Prophet), who will establish truth and justice. However, it does not necessarily mean they should lead one after the other! Thus among them it could be undoubtedly Omar Ibn Abdul-Aziz, and some of the Abbasid kings! (In any event), the Resurrection Day will not happen until they (the 12 Caliphs) undoubtedly rule. And apparently al-Mahdi; whose glad tiding has been mentioned in many narrations is one of them!” (Tafsir Ibn Katheer, vol.3, p.65).

Ibn Hajar; the author of Fathul-Bari, whose book is celebrated as one of the best interpretations of Sahih Bukhari, while quoting from al-Mohallab says:

لم ألق أحدا يقطع في هذا الحديث يعني بشيء معين

“I have not met anyone who could be certain about the meaning of this Hadith!” (Fathul-Bari, vol. 13, p.211)

Similarly, Ibn Jouzi; the renowned Hanbali scholar confesses:

هذا الحديث قد أطلت البحث عنه، وتطلّبت مظانّه، وسألت عنه، فما رأيت أحدا وقع على المقصود به

“I have researched for long to understand this Hadith and referred to many references and made much enquiries about it, yet I did not meet anyone who could understand it.” (Kashful-Majhool, vol.1 p.449)

Likewise, Ibn Taymiyya says:

ومنهم من قال: لا أفهم معناه كأبي بكر بن العربي

“Among them (scholars) are those like Abi-Bakr Bin Arabi who said: “I do not understand the meaning of the Hadith!” (Menhaju-Sunna, vol. 8 p.173)

It doesn't matter which way you look at it or what meaning you take from it, one thing is for certain that the number 12 is most definitely certain and popular. And that is something you can't take away from the Shias. They've definitely got the number right. 😊

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2018, 01:56:53 AM »
Don’t you understand that the 12ers concoted the 12th Imam story to settle on the number 12 to try & fit in with these reports of 12 in the hadith amongst the main muslims at the time.
Al Askari had no son. This was a dilemma for the so called shia followers of his, so they invented the fable of him having a hidden son to save their embarrassment & do it in a fashion that actually fitted in line with the number 12 in hadiths at the time.
A simple fraud perpetuated by the extremist shia.
One which you advertise now as a prophecy LOL

Rationalist

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2018, 01:57:40 AM »
The famous Prophetic narrations of ’12
It doesn't matter which way you look at it or what meaning you take from it, one thing is for certain that the number 12 is most definitely certain and popular.
And its not in the Quran?
Quote
And that is something you can't take away from the Shias. They've definitely got the number right. 😊

Shia sects differed on Imamate. In fact Imam Jafar or any of the Imams never told the ummah they are the 12.

iceman

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2018, 02:44:59 AM »
Don’t you understand that the 12ers concoted the 12th Imam story to settle on the number 12 to try & fit in with these reports of 12 in the hadith amongst the main muslims at the time.
Al Askari had no son. This was a dilemma for the so called shia followers of his, so they invented the fable of him having a hidden son to save their embarrassment & do it in a fashion that actually fitted in line with the number 12 in hadiths at the time.
A simple fraud perpetuated by the extremist shia.
One which you advertise now as a prophecy LOL

It doesn't matter what's been put forward to you, you will completely reject it. And what ever you put forward, you would want us to accept it. You need to change your glasses. Try spec savers.

iceman

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2018, 02:53:25 AM »
And its not in the Quran?
Shia sects differed on Imamate. In fact Imam Jafar or any of the Imams never told the ummah they are the 12.

"And its not in the Quran?"

It is in the Qur'an but not according to how you want it. But lets play it your way,

"And its not in the Quran?"

And so aren't many other things.Allah declared something but the lads couldn’t find it anywhere in the Qur'an. They had no clue what to do and where to go from there.

"Shia sects differed on Imamate. In fact Imam Jafar or any of the Imams never told the ummah they are the 12"

Those who got into authority and gained power used wealth and muscle to have things their way. They changed history, bought people, turned one against the other and most of all made sure right from the Prophet's s.a.w last days onwards that the Ahlul Bayth never got into authority and kept a distance between Ahlul Bayth and the Ummah. That's the bitter truth.

Mythbuster1

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2018, 02:24:20 PM »

Those who got into authority and gained power used wealth and muscle to have things their way. They changed history, bought people, turned one against the other and most of all made sure right from the Prophet's s.a.w last days onwards that the Ahlul Bayth never got into authority and kept a distance between Ahlul Bayth and the Ummah. That's the bitter truth.

Lol tell us how much wealth they had please do tell us of the riches they possessed when alive and then after they died start with the first 2 please.

You have failed in proving imamrmite theory now let’s see your usurper theory as if they took leadership for power and money so give us some details icepop what riches did the first 2 possess.......

Your full of it aren’t ya😂😂

Rationalist

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2018, 04:17:19 PM »
"And its not in the Quran?"

It is in the Qur'an but not according to how you want it. But lets play it your way,

"And its not in the Quran?"

And so aren't many other things.Allah declared something but the lads couldn’t find it anywhere in the Qur'an. They had no clue what to do and where to go from there.

But for those areas there is an agreement within the ummah. For example namaz, hajj, zakat, fasting,  oneness of Allah, finality of Prophethood are agreed by all sects.


Quote
Those who got into authority and gained power used wealth and muscle to have things their way. They changed history, bought people, turned one against the other and most of all made sure right from the Prophet's s.a.w last days onwards that the Ahlul Bayth never got into authority and kept a distance between Ahlul Bayth and the Ummah. That's the bitter truth.

Im talking about Shia sects and you are giving examples of the rulers did. All the Shia sects suffered from the same issue and they differed on who the Imams was.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2018, 08:12:48 PM »
Farid quoted and stated:

"Quote
As for the second report, my friend claims that the Imams ruled over their own followers so the second hadith still applies.

They didn't. Nine Imams issued religious rulings but never ruled. They had no authority over the people. There are no instances of them applying hudood for example.

They couldn't apply hudood because that would have clashed with the "supposed" rulers of their time.

It would have meant inviting trouble. Theerefore, they were excused in that regard. As for the general authority, they ruled over their followers in whatever was feasible.

Anyhow, the fact is that the 12 Imams were appointed and we have supporting evidence for that.

Al-Qazzaz al-Qummi has compiled a book with reports about them. Together they add weight to the matter.

As for your twelve Leaders, where are you proofs regarding them? Assumptions?

In that case it can’t be said that Islam(supposedly Shiism) was in the state of Izza.

Secondly, why did Shias disagree about the identity and even the number of Imams if it was supposedly foretold ?

I hope you are aware of what Bahbudi had to say on this issue, if not then let me know .

 

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