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The Awaited Mahdi

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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2018, 06:24:42 PM »
I dont agree with the second hadith. How can one man full the entire earth with justice and fairness? Its beyond human capacity. Sunni books contain exaggerations too.

Ardh الأرض does not always mean the entire planet, it simply means land, and in this case, the land of the Middle East. Other Hadith say that the Imam al-Mahdi عليه الرضوان will rule over the Arabs:

لَا تَنْقَضِي الدُّنْيَا حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ الْعَرَبَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي ، وَيُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
“The world will not pass away until the Arabs are ruled by a man of my household, whose name matches my name.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad)
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2018, 06:32:30 PM »
Hadith does not say he is the only one coming from Ahlul Bayt. Most likely al Qathani after him and the Imams after will be from Ahlul Bayt as well.

Where did you get the idea that the Qahtani will be from the Ahl al-Bayt?
Ahl al-Bayt are necessarily from Bani Hashim, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Hashimi and descendant of Adnan.

Qahtan are a totally different branch of Arabs, they are not Ahl al-Bayt.

There is also indication from the Hadith that this coming Qahtani isn't a good guy:
لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يَخْرُجَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ قَحْطَانَ يَسُوقُ النَّاسَ بِعَصَاهُ
"The Hour will not be established unless a man from the tribe of Qahtan appears, driving the people with his stick" (Bukhari)
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2018, 06:33:45 PM »
Ardh الأرض does not always mean the entire planet, it simply means land, and in this case, the land of the Middle East. Other Hadith say that the Imam al-Mahdi عليه الرضوان will rule over the Arabs:

لَا تَنْقَضِي الدُّنْيَا حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ الْعَرَبَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي ، وَيُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
“The world will not pass away until the Arabs are ruled by a man of my household, whose name matches my name.” (Sunan Abi Dawud, Musnad Ahmad)

The hadith includes the entire world.

The arab ruling is correct.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2018, 06:35:02 PM »
Where did you get the idea that the Qahtani will be from the Ahl al-Bayt?
Ahl al-Bayt are necessarily from Bani Hashim, as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was a Hashimi and descendant of Adnan.

Qahtan are a totally different branch of Arabs, they are not Ahl al-Bayt.

There is also indication from the Hadith that this coming Qahtani isn't a good guy:
لاَ تَقُومُ السَّاعَةُ حَتَّى يَخْرُجَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ قَحْطَانَ يَسُوقُ النَّاسَ بِعَصَاهُ
"The Hour will not be established unless a man from the tribe of Qahtan appears, driving the people with his stick" (Bukhari)


Qathani here is a title. In hadith 37 it says he is as good as the Mahdi.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 06:47:03 PM »
There is commentary by the a Hanafi scholar who say Mahdi will not live in the era of Dajjal.

What is the basis for such an idea?

I think there is an indication that the Dajjal shall emerge while the Mahdi is the leader of the Muslims. According to some Hadith, it is under the leadership of the Mahdi that the Muslims will retake Constantinople (Istanbul):

لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدُّنْيَا إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَطَوَّلَهُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ حَتَّى يَمْلِكَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلِكُ جَبَلَ الدَّيْلَمِ وَالْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةَ
"Even if there was only one day left of this world, Allah would make it last until a man from my household took possession of (the mountain of) Dailam and Constantinople" (Sunan Ibn Maja 2779)

لَتُفْتَحَنَّ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةُ ، فَلَنِعْمَ الْأَمِيرُ أَمِيرُهَا ، وَلَنِعْمَ الْجَيْشُ ذَلِكَ الْجَيْشُ
"Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!" (Musnad Ahmad)

It is generally accepted that this Hadith is referring to the Ottoman Turks and Sultan Mehmed II (Fatih Sultan Mehmed). However, I believe that is a mistake, this Hadith is another prophecy about the Mahdi.

Why? Because most of the Hadith talk about the conquest of Constantinople occurring during the same time as the emergence of the Dajjal:
وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ خُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ
(Sunan Abi Dawud 4294)

According to a Hadith in Sahih Muslim, a third of the Muslim army that survives the Malhama will go on to conquer Constantinople, and then the Dajjal will finally emerge.

You can see the pieces of the puzzle coming together to reveal the fact that the Mahdi emerges, then there is a Malhama, then the Muslims are victorious and go on to conquer Constantinople, then the Dajjal emerges, and then the Messiah son of Maryam comes down to Damascus and Jerusalem. Allah knows best, but this sequence of events makes the most sense to me.
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2018, 06:50:58 PM »
Qathani here is a title. In hadith 37 it says he is as good as the Mahdi.

Qahtani is a title and nisbah and it means the one of Qahtan. The Hadith in Bukhari is explicit in calling him a man from the Qahtan. You haven't presented any argument that the Qahtani is from Ahl al-Bayt. I don't think any scholar holds such a view.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 09:07:43 PM »
Qahtani is a title and nisbah and it means the one of Qahtan. The Hadith in Bukhari is explicit in calling him a man from the Qahtan. You haven't presented any argument that the Qahtani is from Ahl al-Bayt. I don't think any scholar holds such a view.

Thanks for the correction.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 11:00:38 PM »
The time period between the conquest and the appearance of Dajjal is unknown. While the rule of Mahdi will not exceed 9 years.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2018, 04:07:50 AM »
The time period between the conquest and the appearance of Dajjal is unknown. While the rule of Mahdi will not exceed 9 years.

According to the Hadith of Muadh bin Jabal رضى الله عنه which is slightly weak, the Malhama, conquest of Constantinople and emergence of Dajjal will all occur in a timespan of 7 months:
الْمَلْحَمَةُ الْكُبْرَى وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ وَخُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ فِي سَبْعَةِ أَشْهُرٍ
(Sunan Abi Dawud #4295)

And in another narration from Muadh bin Jabal which is sound:
وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ خُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ
"The conquest of Constantinople is when the Dajjal comes out" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4294)

Another Hadith from Abi Huraira رضى الله عنه states that after the Muslims have conquered Constantinople, the devil will cry out that the Dajjal has taken his place among their families. When that army that conquered Constantinople come back to Sham preparing for battle (perhaps against the Zionist state), then the Dajjal will finally emerge (Sahih Muslim):

وَيَفْتَتِحُ الثُّلُثُ لاَ يُفْتَنُونَ أَبَدًا فَيَفْتَتِحُونَ قُسْطُنْطِينِيَّةَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يَقْتَسِمُونَ الْغَنَائِمَ قَدْ عَلَّقُوا سُيُوفَهُمْ بِالزَّيْتُونِ إِذْ صَاحَ فِيهِمُ الشَّيْطَانُ إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ قَدْ خَلَفَكُمْ فِي أَهْلِيكُمْ ‏.‏ فَيَخْرُجُونَ وَذَلِكَ بَاطِلٌ فَإِذَا جَاءُوا الشَّأْمَ خَرَجَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يُعِدُّونَ لِلْقِتَالِ يُسَوُّونَ الصُّفُوفَ
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2018, 06:37:14 AM »
One of the particularities of the promised Mahdi عليه السلام is the fact that he is directly and divinely appointed by Allah, and therefore has the divine right to rule the Umma. Unlike the ordinary caliphs and rulers, the Umma doesn't have the right to appoint someone to the office of Mahdi through Shura (consultation) or any other means. The Mahdi is sent directly by Allah. When he comes, our duty is only to recognize him and pledge allegiance to him. In this, the office of Mahdi resembles that of the office of Nubuwwa and the office of the Mujaddid which are likewise divinely appointed offices. So the promised Mahdi is مبعوث من الله and منصوص من الله

Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
’’If there was nothing left of time except a day, Allah would raise a man from my household who would fill (the land) with justice as it was filled with tyranny.’’ (Sunan Abi Dawud #4283)

Now the Imamiya Shi'a say there are 12 divinely appointed Imams after Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, but according to us, there is only 1 divinely appointed Imam from the Umma, and that is the promised Mahdi عليه السلام
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2018, 06:49:30 AM »
According to the Hadith of Muadh bin Jabal رضى الله عنه which is slightly weak, the Malhama, conquest of Constantinople and emergence of Dajjal will all occur in a timespan of 7 months:
الْمَلْحَمَةُ الْكُبْرَى وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ وَخُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ فِي سَبْعَةِ أَشْهُرٍ
(Sunan Abi Dawud #4295)

And in another narration from Muadh bin Jabal which is sound:
وَفَتْحُ الْقُسْطَنْطِينِيَّةِ خُرُوجُ الدَّجَّالِ
"The conquest of Constantinople is when the Dajjal comes out" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4294)

Another Hadith from Abi Huraira رضى الله عنه states that after the Muslims have conquered Constantinople, the devil will cry out that the Dajjal has taken his place among their families. When that army that conquered Constantinople come back to Sham preparing for battle (perhaps against the Zionist state), then the Dajjal will finally emerge (Sahih Muslim):

وَيَفْتَتِحُ الثُّلُثُ لاَ يُفْتَنُونَ أَبَدًا فَيَفْتَتِحُونَ قُسْطُنْطِينِيَّةَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يَقْتَسِمُونَ الْغَنَائِمَ قَدْ عَلَّقُوا سُيُوفَهُمْ بِالزَّيْتُونِ إِذْ صَاحَ فِيهِمُ الشَّيْطَانُ إِنَّ الْمَسِيحَ قَدْ خَلَفَكُمْ فِي أَهْلِيكُمْ ‏.‏ فَيَخْرُجُونَ وَذَلِكَ بَاطِلٌ فَإِذَا جَاءُوا الشَّأْمَ خَرَجَ فَبَيْنَمَا هُمْ يُعِدُّونَ لِلْقِتَالِ يُسَوُّونَ الصُّفُوفَ


Ok I got that. But here is what I don't understand. So, we have al Mahdi who will rule for 7 years and according those two hadith Muslims will enjoy a standard of living unlike any before. Yet we have all these wars.


The 29th Hadith
The Leisure of the Ummah during the Reign of Al Mahdi
Abu Sa„īd al-Khidri narrates that the Messenger of Allah (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said, “The Mahdi will be in my Ummah, if short for seven years, otherwise eight, or otherwise nine. My Ummah will enjoy leisure in the time of Al Mahdi the like of which they have never enjoyed. The heavens will shower over them bountifully and the earth will not leave3 any vegetation but to bring it forth”4.


Hadith 1
Al Mahdi’s Reign and the Ummah’s bliss in his time
Narrated Abu Sa„īd al-Khidri: The Prophet (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said: “Al Mahdi will be of my Ummah, He will rule seven years, otherwise eight, or otherwise nine. My Ummah will enjoy blessings in his time they have never had before, both the veracious and the dissipated, God will send them rain that pour from heavens in abundance and the earth will bring forth all that grows”1.


Then we have other hadith which talk about the wars you mentioned plus others.

Book 41, Number 6930:
Nafi' b. Utba reported: We were with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in an expedition that there came a people to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) from the direction of the west. They were dressed in woollen clothes and they stood near a hillock and they met him as Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was sitting. I said to myself: Better go to them and stand between him and them that they may not attack him. Then I thought that perhaps there had been going on secret negotiation amongst them. I however, went to them and btood between them and him and I remember four of the words (on that occasion) which I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah's Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and AllgLh will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi' said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered.




Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2018, 06:52:49 AM »
Now the Imamiya Shi'a say there are 12 divinely appointed Imams after Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, but according to us, there is only 1 divinely appointed Imam from the Umma, and that is the promised Mahdi عليه السلام[/size]

I disagree with that belief. Al Mahdi is not divinely appointed. The hadith which say so are exaggerated and false. We have contrary hadith where people and not some voice will tell the Mahdi to be Calipah. Then the Mahdi will run from that responsibility. He will again be pushed and then after through bayah he will become a Calipah.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2018, 07:07:13 AM »
I disagree with that belief. Al Mahdi is not divinely appointed. The hadith which say so are exaggerated and false. We have contrary hadith where people and not some voice will tell the Mahdi to be Calipah. Then the Mahdi will run from that responsibility. He will again be pushed and then after through bayah he will become a Calipah.

Incidentally, I didn't quote the Hadith about the "Voice" declaring the Mahdi is the Caliph of Allah, knowing full well its authenticity is suspect. But I did quote another Hadith which says Allah will بعث "raise" or "send" the Mahdi. The same word has been used for Prophets and Mujaddidin to indicate that they are appointed to their office by Allah and not the public:
فَبَعَثَ اللَّـهُ النَّبِيِّينَ
"Allah sent the Prophets" (Sura 2:213)

Sayyidina Talut عليه السلام was one of the kings whom Allah directly appointed through the agency of Prophet Samuel:
وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا
Said to them their Prophet: "Verily, Allah has raised for you Talut as King" (Sura 2:247)

Regarding the Mujaddid being divinely appointed by Allah:
إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَبْعَثُ لِهَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ عَلَى رَأْسِ كُلِّ مِائَةِ سَنَةٍ مَنْ يُجَدِّدُ لَهَا دِينَهَا
"Verily, Allah will raise up for this Umma upon the head of every century one who will renew for it its Religion" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4291)

Now the same verb بَعَثَ has been used, with Allah as the فاعل in the case of the promised Mahdi.

As for your argument that the people themselves will coerce the Mahdi to accept the pledge of allegiance and that the Mahdi will "run from that responsibility" you are basing it on the Hadith:
فَيَأْتِيهِ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ مَكَّةَ فَيُخْرِجُونَهُ وَهُوَ كَارِهٌ فَيُبَايِعُونَهُ بَيْنَ الرُّكْنِ وَالْمَقَامِ
"The people of Mecca will come to him and take him out while he is in a state of duress and pledge allegiance to him between the Rukn and the Maqam"

The words Huwa Kaarihun do not necessarily mean "he will run from that responsibility", it only means he is being forced to accept the bay'a without first asking his consent.
Logically, a person can be compelled to do something without first being asked to consent, and that does not necessarily mean that he is against it.
Nor is it an argument that the Mahdi is appointed by the public and not Allah. Actually it means that the people will recognize the Mahdi and see that he bears the foretold signs within him, so give him the bay'a without asking him to consent to it, because it is a matter divinely ordained by Allah.
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2018, 07:13:52 AM »

Ok I got that. But here is what I don't understand. So, we have al Mahdi who will rule for 7 years and according those two hadith Muslims will enjoy a standard of living unlike any before. Yet we have all these wars.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. In the time of the Mahdi there will be abundant wealth and every Muslim who goes to the Mahdi will get his share plus more than he can carry. But where will all that wealth come from? It will come from the spoils of war, because the Mahdi will wage massive wars against powerful nations. War is actually a means of becoming rich. After World War II the United States was victorious and was at the height of its economic and military power. That's why Americans are nostalgic about the late 40s and 50s.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2018, 10:06:29 PM »
Incidentally, I didn't quote the Hadith about the "Voice" declaring the Mahdi is the Caliph of Allah, knowing full well its authenticity is suspect.
That's the problem with these Mahdi hadith. They are very difficult to authenticate. As for Allah's Calipah that is not possible. Allah cannot have a Calipah. The Calipahs are representative of earth not Allah. There is a problem with the wording.
Quote
Sayyidina Talut عليه السلام was one of the kings whom Allah directly appointed through the agency of Prophet Samuel:
وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّـهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا
Said to them their Prophet: "Verily, Allah has raised for you Talut as King" (Sura 2:247)
You see it says for you. It doesn't say he is Allah's calipah.

Quote
Regarding the Mujaddid being divinely appointed by Allah:
إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَبْعَثُ لِهَذِهِ الأُمَّةِ عَلَى رَأْسِ كُلِّ مِائَةِ سَنَةٍ مَنْ يُجَدِّدُ لَهَا دِينَهَا
"Verily, Allah will raise up for this Umma upon the head of every century one who will renew for it its Religion" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4291)
Yes, but they are not divinely appointed.


Quote
As for your argument that the people themselves will coerce the Mahdi to accept the pledge of allegiance and that the Mahdi will "run from that responsibility" you are basing it on the Hadith:
فَيَأْتِيهِ نَاسٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ مَكَّةَ فَيُخْرِجُونَهُ وَهُوَ كَارِهٌ فَيُبَايِعُونَهُ بَيْنَ الرُّكْنِ وَالْمَقَامِ
"The people of Mecca will come to him and take him out while he is in a state of duress and pledge allegiance to him between the Rukn and the Maqam"
Its similar to what happened during Imam Ali's (as) time.


When people decided to Swear allegiance[1] at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of `Uthman, he said:
Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not care about whatever one may say or abuse. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

(Najh al Balagha, Sermon 92)


Quote
Nor is it an argument that the Mahdi is appointed by the public and not Allah. Actually it means that the people will recognize the Mahdi and see that he bears the foretold signs within him, so give him the bay'a without asking him to consent to it, because it is a matter divinely ordained by Allah.

Show me an example where the term Allah's Calipah is used in history or in the Quran. Allah cannot have a representative. The hadith is made up by an extremist.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2018, 10:09:05 PM »
It makes perfect sense if you think about it. In the time of the Mahdi there will be abundant wealth and every Muslim who goes to the Mahdi will get his share plus more than he can carry. But where will all that wealth come from? It will come from the spoils of war, because the Mahdi will wage massive wars against powerful nations. War is actually a means of becoming rich. After World War II the United States was victorious and was at the height of its economic and military power. That's why Americans are nostalgic about the late 40s and 50s.

You also need to realize that US joined the war near its end. All the fighting was done by Europe against Germany. After Germany got exhausted  from taking over Europe and loosing to Russia, that's when US jumped in with a fresh army. Did they go and fight Japan? Nope. 

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2018, 11:00:47 PM »
That's the problem with these Mahdi hadith. They are very difficult to authenticate. As for Allah's Calipah that is not possible. Allah cannot have a Calipah. The Calipahs are representative of earth not Allah.

That doesn't make sense. How does the Earth have a representative?
Adam is the Caliph of Allah, meaning the Viceroy of God. Man was created to represent Allah on Earth. That is the whole concept and idea of Khilafa, that man represents Allah on Earth.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2018, 12:43:33 AM »
That doesn't make sense. How does the Earth have a representative?
Adam is the Caliph of Allah, meaning the Viceroy of God. Man was created to represent Allah on Earth. That is the whole concept and idea of Khilafa, that man represents Allah on Earth.

Show me examples from the Quran where the term Allah's Calipah is used. Its not possible to be Allah's Calipah.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2018, 02:49:59 AM »
In our mosques we are always presented with the history of the Khulufa Rashid is a very romantic way. Likewise, the same case applies for the end of times. We are always presented with a very romantic story of the Mahdi. With this in mind, what the 12er Shia do is find the faults of the early rulers, and then they tell how Islam would have had a romantic past if Ali was the first calipah. Likewise, with the Mahdi they went a step ahead of what is presented in the Sunni books. Since, the 12er Shia faced a continuous history of persecution these stories at times relieved them of stress and frustration they were going too. I am glad you mentioned world war 2. What I want to do is present a clip which shows the reality of how many causalities the 2nd world war caused.



Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2018, 07:52:14 AM »
Show me examples from the Quran where the term Allah's Calipah is used. Its not possible to be Allah's Calipah.

If you don't mind me counter questioning: why is it not possible to be "Allah's Caliph".
Prophets Adam and David are traditionally referred to as Khalifatullah by Muslims.
In my view, the promised Mahdi is also Khalifatullah, he will be Allah's representative on Earth.

You earlier wrote that the Quran speaks of Khalifa of the Earth and not Khalifa of Allah.
But what is a "Khalifa of the Earth"? That doesn't make sense.

The Quran never says "Khalifa of the Earth", it says "Khalifa IN the Earth".
Meaning someone who has been made Khalifa by Allah to represent Allah in the Earth.
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