The two 'feet' of Allah are between his creation?

[whoaretheshia]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم
اسلام علیکم

We all know that in the Salfi-Athari creed, Allah is said to literally have direction, location, attributes of ascent and descent, two hands , two feet, a shin, fingers, eyes and other constituent parts that make up his whole. However these are not like a human beings, but in a way that befits him. I will not even elaborate on why this is probably the weakest point of Aqeedah any Muslim group has ever come up with, and the orthodox-Sunni's such as the Ashari and Maturidi have written plenty to refute it that i do not need to bring the Shia view here. Nevertheless it is a minority position in the Ummah.

One thing that has shocked me is, the belief the two 'feet' of Allah are between his  Arsh and his Qursi. We know that both the Arsh and the Kursiy are creations of Allah. We know that the Arsh is above the Kursi. If the two 'feet' of Allah are between the Arsh and the Kursi, is it logical to claim there is part of Allah that is between his creation?

Proof the Salafi-Athari's believe this:   https://islamqa.info/en/166843

Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Kursiy (foot stool) is the place of the two feet, and the size of Throne cannot be known.”

This was narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in at-Tawheed, 1/248, no. 154; Ibn Abi Shaybah in al-‘Arsh, 61; ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Muraysi; ‘Abdullah ibn al-Imam Ahmad in as-Sunnah; and al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, 2/282 – he classed it as saheeh according to the conditions of the two shaykhs (al-Bukhaari and Muslim), and adh-Dhahabi agreed with him. It was also classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Mukhtasar al-‘Uluw, p. 102; and by Ahmad Shaakir in ‘Umdat at-Tafseer, 2/163.

Do you believe that Allah - or part of Allah , the Almighty can be in-between his own creation?

[whoaretheshia]

Anybody?

[Optimus Prime]

If you genuine wish to study, or research Sunni aqeedah out of sheer, and morbid curiosity, then why not reach out and ask the 'Ulema?

[whoaretheshia]

If you genuine wish to study, or research Sunni aqeedah out of sheer, and morbid curiosity, then why not reach out and ask the 'Ulema?

I have read many of the Aqeedah books of the Salafi-Athari's. I have read Sharh Aqeedah Al Wasitiyah (ibn Taymiyyah), Explanation of Aqeedatul Hamawiyyah - Ibn Uthaymeen,Explanation of Al-Aqeedahtul Hamawiyyah , and have watched many lectures by some of your major scholars on this issue, such as Ibn Baz, ibn Uthaymeen, al-Albani.

The question i have to ask is, is there no-one here willing to defend their own belief on one of the most fundamental issue in Islam; the understanding of Allah and his divine attributes?

[Hadrami]

If you genuine wish to study, or research Sunni aqeedah out of sheer, and morbid curiosity, then why not reach out and ask the 'Ulema?

Shia believe Allah is among His creation every week during His pilgrimage to Karbala and Allah had even put His hand on Husayn RA head when he was a kid. He is not curious, but just trying to deflect the main issue which is the weakness of his core belief, the divine imamah. He knows very well that majority of muslim are maturidi-ashari, not athari. Even with athari, i have never met one who said Allah is like His creation. Like i said in othr thread, the maturidi-ashari-athari differences wont help shia cause, it doesnt proof that divine imamah is true. Its just a deflection attempt, like his other post about sunni fiqh differences.

[whoaretheshia]

If you genuine wish to study, or research Sunni aqeedah out of sheer, and morbid curiosity, then why not reach out and ask the 'Ulema?

Shia believe Allah is among His creation every week during His pilgrimage to Karbala and Allah had even put His hand on Husayn RA head when he was a kid. He is not curious, but just trying to deflect the main issue which is the weakness of his core belief, the divine imamah. He knows very well that majority of muslim are maturidi-ashari, not athari. Even with athari, i have never met one who said Allah is like His creation. Like i said in othr thread, the maturidi-ashari-athari differences wont help shia cause, it doesnt proof that divine imamah is true. Its just a deflection attempt, like his other post about sunni fiqh differences.

I swear by Allah [swt], and i swear by Allah [swt] and i repeat my swear by Allah [swt] if the Shia believe Allah [swt] 'descends' and visits Ali, and puts his hand on him. This is the biggest lie and the biggest slander. I adjure you, to swear by Allah, if you have verified if this is true? Let me show you, my dear brother , that this is nothing but slander.

The deceitful channel has ignored when the Shaykh says "Ofcourse Allah does not descend, he has ho form/body. This is just metaphorical" Why did antimajos decide to cut that bit out and deceive the audience?

16 minutes in, you will watch the part they cut out.

https://imgur.com/YKAktPi



Furthermore, the narration is weak due to Muhammed b.Sinan : حدَّثني أبي ـ رحمه الله ـ عن سعد بن عبدالله ، عن محمّد بن عيسى بن عُبيد اليقطينيِّ ، عن محمّد بن سِنان ، عن أبي سعيد القَمّاط عن ابن أبي يَعفور ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : بينما رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم في منزل فاطمة عليها السلام والحسين في حِجره إذ بكى وخرَّ ساجداً ، ثمَّ قال : يا فاطمة بنت محمّد! إنَّ العليَّ الأعلى ترائي لي في بيتك هذا في ساعتي هذه في أحسن صورة وأهْيَأ هَيئة ، وقال لي : يامحمّد أتحبّ الحسين؟ فقال : نعم ؛ قُرة عيني ورَيحانتي وثمرة فؤادي ؛ وجلدة ما بين عيني ، فقال لي : يا محمّد ـ ووضع يده على رأس الحسين عليه السلام ـ بورك من مولود عليه بركاتي وصلواتي ورحمتي ورضواني ؛ ولعنتي وسخطي وعذابي وخزيي ونكالي على مَن قَتَلَه وناصَبَه وناواه ونازَعَه ، أما إنّه سيّدُ الشّهداء مِنَ الاُوَّلينَ والآخِرينَ في الدُّنيا والآخرَة ـ وذكر الحديث ـ »


And then you might want to look at this;


An authentic narration whereby the Imam refutes those who have distorted the hadith of the alleged descent of Allah , the Almighty: May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he [saw] said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night..” [Man la Yadhuru al Faqih, Shaykh as Saduq]

The hadith from Saheeh al-Bukhari: "“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says:…”

[whoaretheshia]

This is Tawheed brothers and sisters, the most fundamental branch of our Aqeedah. Surely there is someone willing to make a legitimate defence here?

[Hadrami]

If you genuine wish to study, or research Sunni aqeedah out of sheer, and morbid curiosity, then why not reach out and ask the 'Ulema?

Shia believe Allah is among His creation every week during His pilgrimage to Karbala and Allah had even put His hand on Husayn RA head when he was a kid. He is not curious, but just trying to deflect the main issue which is the weakness of his core belief, the divine imamah. He knows very well that majority of muslim are maturidi-ashari, not athari. Even with athari, i have never met one who said Allah is like His creation. Like i said in othr thread, the maturidi-ashari-athari differences wont help shia cause, it doesnt proof that divine imamah is true. Its just a deflection attempt, like his other post about sunni fiqh differences.

I swear by Allah [swt], and i swear by Allah [swt] and i repeat my swear by Allah [swt] if the Shia believe Allah [swt] 'descends' and visits Ali, and puts his hand on him. This is the biggest lie and the biggest slander. I adjure you, to swear by Allah, if you have verified if this is true? Let me show you, my dear brother , that this is nothing but slander.

The deceitful channel has ignored when the Shaykh says "Ofcourse Allah does not descend, he has ho form/body. This is just metaphorical" Why did antimajos decide to cut that bit out and deceive the audience?

16 minutes in, you will watch the part they cut out.

Methaporical excuse was refuted on that same video. By the way that person in the video believe Abu Bakr & Umar are hellbound, no sugarcoating like you, but here you are using that shia takfiri channel to defend your belief. 😀 Anyway, there is already a video response to his claim in that video. His trickery has been exposed many times.

[whoaretheshia]

....

Seriously, i swore on Allah thrice that this is not true. It is part of our Aqeedah to believe Allah does not descend. The Ijmah is if the hadith is reliable, it is not literal but purely metaphorical language. To add to this i have presented a clear and authentic narration refuting the notion Allah the Almighty can descend. I have also proven by classical Rijal standards the metaphorical tradition of descent it is weak.

Yet, if after all of this, you decide not to pay heed brother, and be just, and be intellectually honest , but rather persist in what are lies and slander now that i have emphatically disproven them, that is your prerogative. People browsing this forum who are honest will know.

[whoaretheshia]

People can create threads about Rabbit meat, but when i create a thread about the fundamental doctrine of Tawheed, there is no-one to give any serious answer. This should be bread and butter for TSN. I say this with the utmost respect.

The only response so far has been a lie, and a slander, and then the most immature video i have ever watched from the anti-intellect channel.

Brothers, there has to be a certain level of Adhab when engaging in these discussions. If we truly seek the truth, we must come with objectivity, fairness, and an open mind.

[Hadrami]

Yet, if after all of this, you decide not to pay heed brother, and be just, and be intellectually honest , but rather persist in what are lies and slander now that i have emphatically disproven them, that is your prerogative. People browsing this forum who are honest will know.

Honesty? Im just tired of liars claiming to be honest, thats all. You shia of all people would be the last people that would be considered honest. So please, just be open about your takfiri minded sect or taqiyya lying sect. We are all adults here. You posted video by a shia who are well known to often make takfir of Abu Bakr & Umar and here you are trying to act as if you are against takfir & even claim to believe Abu Bakr & Umar wont be in hell in another thread when you yourself in another thread said deny imamah=kuffar in hereafter. Dont talk about honesty please 😆

[Hadrami]

People can create threads about Rabbit meat, but when i create a thread about the fundamental doctrine of Tawheed, there is no-one to give any serious answer. This should be bread and butter for TSN. I say this with the utmost respect.

i never like articles discussing issues such as rabbit meat, mut'ah etc anyway. I love the big 3: imamah, taqiyya aka lying anytime anywhere & ghayba aka hiding afraid issues, coz nothing clearly show the falseness of shiism more than those 3 main subjects

[whoaretheshia]

11 posts so far, and no-one has directly addressed the main argument, but we have instead sidetracked into total irrelevancy.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

The info in this video is quite interesting.

https://youtu.be/6lY7Js6OEjw

[whoaretheshia]

The info in this video is quite interesting.

https://youtu.be/6lY7Js6OEjw

I have refuted this video many times over. Anti-Majos has been shown to be deceitful - as this thread has demonstrated. I will be publishing an article on whoaretheshia website soon inshAllah on this very matter. I am astonished no-one can address the arguments made in the OP directly however. This is all side-tracking.

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

The info in this video is quite interesting.

https://youtu.be/6lY7Js6OEjw

I have refuted this video many times over. Anti-Majos has been shown to be deceitful - as this thread has demonstrated. I will be publishing an article on whoaretheshia website soon inshAllah on this very matter. I am astonished no-one can address the arguments made in the OP directly however. This is all side-tracking.

The point is you want to discuss something which deals with howness of Allah, and that is forbidden to be discussed, because of limited knowledge, and limitations a human brain has in regards to comprehending things which are unseen, specially in regards to Allah(swt).

As for your claim that you will do this and that , then bro it would be better if you show soke action between making loud claims, because actions speak louder than words.

[muslim720]

I am astonished no-one can address the arguments made in the OP directly however. This is all side-tracking.

Insha'Allah, in due time, we shall find out who is side-tracking.

Allah (swt) says, "He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands?  Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?"  (38:75)

He (swt) also says, "And they esteem not Allah as He hath the right to be esteemed, when the whole earth is His handful on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens are rolled in His right hand.  Glorified is He and High Exalted from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)."  (39:67)

So, right from the get-go, we have learned that Allah (swt) ascribes to Himself "both My hands" and a "right hand".  Do you deny these two verses?

You are more than welcome to speculate as much as you like and I stand against Salafi/Wahabi ideology but what better answer do you have than what has already been said regarding these verses and narrations?

To expound and summarize, Allah (swt) declares many times in the Holy Quran that He Sees and that He Hears everything.  How?  He (swt) sees as suits His Majesty and Might.  He (swt) hears as suits His Magnificence and Power.  He also mentions His "right hand" and "both My hands".  The exact nature of these descriptions is beyond human comprehension.  Sufficient is for the believers - those who truly believe in Allah (swt) and the Last Day - to believe in exactly what has been mentioned by Allah (swt) and the Prophet (saw).  Therefore, His Hands suit His Incomparable Glory and Perfection in a way known only to Him.

[Hani]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم
اسلام علیکم

We all know that in the Salfi-Athari creed, Allah is said to literally have direction, location, attributes of ascent and descent, two hands , two feet, a shin, fingers, eyes and other constituent parts that make up his whole. However these are not like a human beings, but in a way that befits him. I will not even elaborate on why this is probably the weakest point of Aqeedah any Muslim group has ever come up with, and the orthodox-Sunni's such as the Ashari and Maturidi have written plenty to refute it that i do not need to bring the Shia view here. Nevertheless it is a minority position in the Ummah.

One thing that has shocked me is, the belief the two 'feet' of Allah are between his  Arsh and his Qursi. We know that both the Arsh and the Kursiy are creations of Allah. We know that the Arsh is above the Kursi. If the two 'feet' of Allah are between the Arsh and the Kursi, is it logical to claim there is part of Allah that is between his creation?

Proof the Salafi-Athari's believe this:   https://islamqa.info/en/166843

Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Kursiy (foot stool) is the place of the two feet, and the size of Throne cannot be known.”

This was narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in at-Tawheed, 1/248, no. 154; Ibn Abi Shaybah in al-‘Arsh, 61; ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Muraysi; ‘Abdullah ibn al-Imam Ahmad in as-Sunnah; and al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, 2/282 – he classed it as saheeh according to the conditions of the two shaykhs (al-Bukhaari and Muslim), and adh-Dhahabi agreed with him. It was also classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Mukhtasar al-‘Uluw, p. 102; and by Ahmad Shaakir in ‘Umdat at-Tafseer, 2/163.

Do you believe that Allah - or part of Allah , the Almighty can be in-between his own creation?

An observation,

Based on the text above, and on the fact that it was also narrated with descent chains from Ibn `Abbas that "Kursi here means knowledge"

حدثنا أبو كريب وسلـم بن جنادة، قالا: ثنا ابن إدريس، عن مطرف، عن جعفر بن أبـي الـمغيرة، عن سعيد بن جبـير، عن ابن عبـاس: { وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ } قال: كرسيه: علـمه.

حدثنـي يعقوب بن إبراهيـم، قال: ثنا هشيـم، قال: أخبرنا مطرِّف، عن جعفر بن أبـي الـمغيرة، عن سعيد بن جبـير، عن ابن عبـاس، مثله، وزاد فـيه: ألا ترى إلـى قوله: { وَلاَ يَؤُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا }؟

Also as is apparent from the verse itself linguistically (review Tabari's explanation) it's possible to deduce that what Ibn `Abbas was doing is to explain what a Kursi is according to Arabs as is the habit of all exegisists/Mufassirin.

So he had two reports, when asked what a Kursi is, he explained it as a stool used by kings (to rest their feet or whatnot) then when explaining the verse itself he said it means knowledge in this context.

[whoaretheshia]

An observation,

Based on the text above, and on the fact that it was also narrated with descent chains from Ibn `Abbas that "Kursi here means knowledge"

حدثنا أبو كريب وسلـم بن جنادة، قالا: ثنا ابن إدريس، عن مطرف، عن جعفر بن أبـي الـمغيرة، عن سعيد بن جبـير، عن ابن عبـاس: { وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ } قال: كرسيه: علـمه.

حدثنـي يعقوب بن إبراهيـم، قال: ثنا هشيـم، قال: أخبرنا مطرِّف، عن جعفر بن أبـي الـمغيرة، عن سعيد بن جبـير، عن ابن عبـاس، مثله، وزاد فـيه: ألا ترى إلـى قوله: { وَلاَ يَؤُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا }؟

Also as is apparent from the verse itself linguistically (review Tabari's explanation) it's possible to deduce that what Ibn `Abbas was doing is to explain what a Kursi is according to Arabs as is the habit of all exegisists/Mufassirin.

So he had two reports, when asked what a Kursi is, he explained it as a stool used by kings (to rest their feet or whatnot) then when explaining the verse itself he said it means knowledge in this context.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحیم
اسلام علیکم

Well, i am very glad one members has chose to directly engage in dialogue. If the length of my posts is what puts you off brother Hani, i will try to work on that specifically for your sake, as you seem willing to at least engage in dialogue.

Let me address your response:

Your response would be adequate for Ashari and Maturidi scholars who tend to favour this sort of interpretation. However, what can we say about the Salafi-Athari? From what i gather, the majority of Salafi-Athari scholars believe that Allah , the Almighty, literally has two feet, but how it is not known. From my research i have also understood that the Kursiy is considered a creation of Allah, and the two feet part of the attributes of Allah. Is it a coincidence that the 'two feet' which are widely accepted by the Salafi-Atharis to be literal parts of the Almighty, happen to be over what is known as the 'footstool' ? You have given one interpretation i do not think will be accepted by the vast majority of the Salafi-Athari scholars.

If we refer to this:Abu Moosa al-Ash‘ari (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Kursiy is the place for the two feet, and it creaks as a saddle creaks.
Narrated by ‘Abdullah ibn al-Imam Ahmad in as-Sunnah; Ibn Abu Shaybah in al-‘Arsh, 60; and by Ibn Jareer, al-Bayhaqi and others. Its isnaad was classed as saheeh in al-Fath, 8/47 and by al-Albaani in Mukhtasar al-‘Uluw, p. 123-124

It just pushes away the idea one can interpret traditions like this in a metaphorical manner. Furthermore, the Shaykh who wrote this article: https://islamqa.info/en/166843 first affirms Allah has two feet, and that the two feet are literally above the foot-stool and this is the place of the two feet. There is no attempt at describing the Kursiy as knowledge.

In fact, Ibn Uthaymeen comments:

There are those who say that the Kursiy is the Throne because of the hadeeth, “Allaah will set up His Kursiy on the Day of Resurrection.” They think that the Kursiy is the Throne.
  Similarly, some people claim that the Kursiy is Allaah’s knowledge, and say that the aayah (interpretation of the meaning)
“His Kursiy extends over the heavens and the earth” [al-Baqarah 2:255] refers to His Knowledge.
  The correct view is that the Kursiy is a footstool, and the Throne is that which the Most Merciful rose above (istiwaa’). And knowledge is the attribute of the knowledgeable one by means of which he understands that which he knows.
(al-Qawl al-Mufeed Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed, 3/393, 394).


I therefore do not think your opinion will hold with the vast majority of the Salafi-Athari scholars and even some among the Ashari and Maturidi. Either-way, your attempt showed some skill and intelligence, and i have to commend you for that, but unfortunately it is not an adequate response, but a good attempt.

[whoaretheshia]

I have refuted this video many times over. Anti-Majos has been shown to be deceitful - as this thread has demonstrated. I will be publishing an article on whoaretheshia website soon inshAllah on this very matter. I am astonished no-one can address the arguments made in the OP directly however. This is all side-tracking.


The point is you want to discuss something which deals with howness of Allah, and that is forbidden to be discussed, because of limited knowledge, and limitations a human brain has in regards to comprehending things which are unseen, specially in regards to Allah(swt).

As for your claim that you will do this and that , then bro it would be better if you show soke action between making loud claims, because actions speak louder than words.

Having debated many Salafi-Atharis, i will not ask you to explain to me how the creator can have two feet. However, all i want you to do is the following:

1. Do you affirm the Kursiy and Arsh are creations of Allah, the Almighty ?
2. Do you affirm the authentic traditions and the view of the Salafi-Athari scholars that the footstool is literal, and it is not knowledge and it is the place of the two feet of Allah, the Almighty?
3. Do you affirm the Kursiy and the Arsh are creations of Allah?
4. If you affirm all of the above, which i am quite sure you have to if you are a Salafi-Athari, then you affirm part of Allah by virtue of his attributes and essence is between and in his creation, even if it is above the universe we know.