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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 17, 2019, 12:21:57 PM

Title: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 17, 2019, 12:21:57 PM
Allah is above and distinct from the Creation – Proven from Reliable Shia Reports.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2019/12/15/allah-is-above-and-distinct-from-the-creation-proven-from-reliable-shia-reports/
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 17, 2019, 03:47:23 PM
Allah is above and distinct from the Creation – Proven from Reliable Shia Reports.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2019/12/15/allah-is-above-and-distinct-from-the-creation-proven-from-reliable-shia-reports/

And what seems to be the problem.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 17, 2019, 03:51:13 PM
And what seems to be the problem.
??
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 17, 2019, 05:18:58 PM
??

Yes?
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 17, 2019, 05:47:14 PM
And what seems to be the problem.
Care to elaborate.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 17, 2019, 06:11:12 PM
Care to elaborate.

What's the point of the thread. The purpose of your post.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 17, 2019, 06:33:15 PM
What's the point of the thread. The purpose of your post.
To read the article, which is to correct your Aqeedah if you believe that Allah is Everywhere/Omnipresent.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 18, 2019, 03:57:54 AM
Allah is above and distinct from the Creation – Proven from Reliable Shia Reports.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2019/12/15/allah-is-above-and-distinct-from-the-creation-proven-from-reliable-shia-reports/

Salam brother,

I must say, while i profoundly disagree with many of your views, only Allah alone knows your real intentions. You are making a lot of effort in the work you do, though i believe you do make a lot of subtle errors, and not necessarily because you want to or are unintelligent, but because of the fitnah of people who have come before you. I want to think of you are a sincere individual, who puts in a lot of their own personal time and effort into defending what they genuinely believe to be true for the sake of Allah. That is the spirit in which i want to now engage in conversation with you , without intending you bring you to what i believe, but rather, to merely present how i see the errors in your analysis, and then refer the matter to Allah.

My next post will directly address the topic of the thread.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 18, 2019, 04:17:55 AM
What brother Noor-Us-Sunnah is doing here is promoting the Salafi/Athari perspective of the attributes of Allah. He then tires to argue that this is was authentic Shia sources themselves imply, and this acts as a response to Shias who reject the idea that Allah is literally above anything , or spatially relative to any physical object.  He also presents some rational and scriptural proof to try to bolster this view.

Many reading this may have no real awareness over what exactly the fuss it all about and what we are debating here. Let me make it simple for you.

Salafis believe that Allah, the Almighty, is literally above. So we essentially have our physical universe, and Allah is literally above his Arsh. They therefore contend that Allah is spatially relative to the rest of creation.

Shias , as well as Orthodox Sunnis who belong to the largest schools of Aqeedah, the Asharis and the Maturidis (opposed to Salafis) believe that Allah existed and there was nothing. Noor-us-Sunnah tried to affirm this too, but it is inconsistent with his belief in Allah being spatially relative to the universe.

Again, Allah existed, and there was nothing. No space, no time, nothing. Allah is not a body, nor does he have a physical form, nor is he contained anywhere. Allah created the universe, and so created time and space. Before Allah created space, there was no space.

What does this mean? Allah was not above anything, or below anything, because Allah was not in space, not contained by anything, nor relative to anything. He is as he always was.

When the universe was created, it was not created above Allah, below Allah. Allah never had a "where" because to have a "where" means you need to have physical coordinates, a confine, and be relative to something else. Allah created the entire concept of "where" when he created limited , created things.

Therefore Allah is not literally everywhere, because he physically is not confined anywhere or to any place, nor does he have any form or confine. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because it is a concept he himself created, and it applies to relative, created objects encompassed by space.

When some people say "Allah is everywhere" what they mean is he is everywhere through his knowledge , power, and control. In reality, Allah is neither literally above anywhere, nor he is literally everywhere.

The question of "where" does not apply to Allah.

Far above is he, to be given attributes of the created, when he is the creator of those attributes. He is Allah, the first, and the last, the creator of time and space, and not limited by time and space.


Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 18, 2019, 04:24:42 AM
The majority of Sunni scholars, as well as Shias, have been united in that Allah is not literally above his Arsh, which is above the Kursiy, which is literally above the seven heavens.

Shias, as well as Sunnis belonging to the Ashari and Maturidi school, encompass the majority of Muslims in totality.

Twelvershianet, Saudi Arabia, as well as most of the current D'awah groups in London and on YouTube , promote the Salafi/Athari creed and one might be forgiven to think they represent the majority, or even dominant view.

This is Hanafi Fiqh channel, dismantling the claim that Allah, the creator of space, of coordinates, or physically connected and relative objects, is himself, limited by the very concepts he created:



This is why i often suggest to anyone who is confused , or skeptical about Shia-Sunni differences to not focus on very complicated, secondary issues, like the differences between Mufid and Saduq, or complex sciences of Hadith, or complex geopolitics, without first looking at Tawheed.

You will be questioned first and foremost on Tawheed, not Geddafi, Safawi Iran, or Khomeini.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 18, 2019, 01:00:55 PM
What brother Noor-Us-Sunnah is doing here is promoting the Salafi/Athari perspective of the attributes of Allah.
So you mean all the Sunni Imams who were quoted in the starting of article are Salafi?  Well, this is what it implies.

He then tires to argue that this is was authentic Shia sources themselves imply, and this acts as a response to Shias who reject the idea that Allah is literally above anything , or spatially relative to any physical object.  He also presents some rational and scriptural proof to try to bolster this view.

Many reading this may have no real awareness over what exactly the fuss it all about and what we are debating here. Let me make it simple for you.

Salafis believe that Allah, the Almighty, is literally above. So we essentially have our physical universe, and Allah is literally above his Arsh. They therefore contend that Allah is spatially relative to the rest of creation.

Shias , as well as Orthodox Sunnis who belong to the largest schools of Aqeedah, the Asharis and the Maturidis (opposed to Salafis) believe that Allah existed and there was nothing. Noor-us-Sunnah tried to affirm this too, but it is inconsistent with his belief in Allah being spatially relative to the universe.

Again, Allah existed, and there was nothing. No space, no time, nothing. Allah is not a body, nor does he have a physical form, nor is he contained anywhere. Allah created the universe, and so created time and space. Before Allah created space, there was no space.

What does this mean? Allah was not above anything, or below anything, because Allah was not in space, not contained by anything, nor relative to anything. He is as he always was.

When the universe was created, it was not created above Allah, below Allah. Allah never had a "where" because to have a "where" means you need to have physical coordinates, a confine, and be relative to something else. Allah created the entire concept of "where" when he created limited , created things.

Therefore Allah is not literally everywhere, because he physically is not confined anywhere or to any place, nor does he have any form or confine. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because it is a concept he himself created, and it applies to relative, created objects encompassed by space.

When some people say "Allah is everywhere" what they mean is he is everywhere through his knowledge , power, and control. In reality, Allah is neither literally above anywhere, nor he is literally everywhere.

The question of "where" does not apply to Allah.

Far above is he, to be given attributes of the created, when he is the creator of those attributes. He is Allah, the first, and the last, the creator of time and space, and not limited by time and space.

I appreciative you for mentioning the fact that, "I have used Authentic Shia reports and Scriptural evidence" in presenting my claim. And respected readers, this is what the beauty of Ahlus-sunnah is, their belief is based on Scriptural evidence and authentic reports, not logic and philosophy, they believe in Allah as He Himself mentioned about Him, or as His Messenger(S) mentioned about Him or His companions. While the deviant people have forsaken the Scriptural evidence and the Authentic reports, and have judged matters based on their Aql(intellect) and logic, which is confined and limited, due to which some people even ended up becoming atheists, because they too try to judge matters based on their Aql. They believe they are smart in questioning that Everything has a beginning and a creator which implies God must have a beginning and creator as well, without understanding that it's against the definition of Creator to be Created, but this doesn't get into their brain, since they tend to use their logic and intellect instead of Scriptural evidence.

Anyways, since I have presented the case of Allah being separate from the creation and above from Shia texts, then I wish to be challenged by authentic reports instead of logic and Kalam. But for he last post you seemed to be empty handed. And as for the question of "Where" for Allah(swt) then if your perception from "where" is creation then know that Allah is separate from it(creation/where), and above it.

If you believe that Allah's Essence is neither above(where/creation) nor in the creation, then you have defined Allah as non-existent, even though you may not claim so, but the implication of definition is for non-existent. So, I congratulate you for accepting Atheist, and while I prefer to stick to what has been mentioned in the scripture(Quran), and reliable reports(ahadeeth).
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 18, 2019, 03:23:47 PM
In the name of Allah, the most beneficent, the most merciful.

"Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah(SWT) is above the seven heavens, above His ‘Arsh(Throne), and distinct/separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him. There is a consensus(Ijma) among Ahlus-Sunnah over this belief as stated by the following classical Scholars from Ahlus-Sunnah"

Ok, according to Sunni point of view, just to cut it short we're down here and he's up there. So we don't know what's up there apart from what we're told. And he doesn't know what's down here because he's up there? So Allah is limited to being up there.

"Some of these deviant Sects even include Shias, who either believe that Allah is omnipresent and present everywhere"

Yes we do believe in that but not how you've put it below.

"and dwells in the creation, which implies that He dwells in filthy places, which no sane person could dare to impute to Allah such an attribute. It would also imply that Allah is mingling with His creatures in the heavens and on the earth"

The above is not what we believe in. We believe that you can't limit Allah to a specific area or place. That's what we believe in. Your belief is more in line with the Hindus. They have their gods with and on thrones.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 18, 2019, 03:51:26 PM
Your belief is more in line with the Hindus. They have their gods with and on thrones.
Actually you aren't aware of Hindu beliefs, because Hindus belief everything is God. And this resembles your belief, because God is everywhere with His Essence, according to you. To be precise your belief is that of Jahamiyyah.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 18, 2019, 06:34:15 PM
Actually you aren't aware of Hindu beliefs, because Hindus belief everything is God. And this resembles your belief, because God is everywhere with His Essence, according to you. To be precise your belief is that of Jahamiyyah.

You've got it all mixed up here. Either you aren't aware of the Shia belief regarding tauheed or you're just trying to tamper with the Shia belief on tauheed. It's one or the other. I'll go with the first.

"Now, the question is whether Allah(swt), everywhere and omnipresent with His Essence or Separate and above the creation?"

Allow me to clear your misconception. Allah is everywhere, meaning you can't limit him to one area or place. He isn't confined to a body or structure. You can't say he is present here but not there. He is everywhere and nothing is beyond his knowledge and information.

"So when Allah(swt) created a thing, either He created it and entered it or didn’t enter into it and remained distinct from it"

He definitely created everything. That's an absolute. But entering a creation, that's never been a Shia belief. I don't know where on earth you got that from.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 18, 2019, 06:48:13 PM

Allow me to clear your misconception. Allah is everywhere, meaning you can't limit him to one area or place. He isn't confined to a body or structure. You can't say he is present here but not there. He is everywhere and nothing is beyond his knowledge and information.
If you believe that He is present everywhere with His Essence NOT knowledge, then you are upon the creed of Jahamiyyah.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 18, 2019, 09:57:34 PM
If you believe that He is present everywhere with His Essence NOT knowledge, then you are upon the creed of Jahamiyyah.

Don't worry about my belief, let me worry about that. Focus on and talk about yours. So you believe he isn't everywhere but in a specific area and place.Is that correct?
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 18, 2019, 10:00:13 PM
Don't worry about my belief, let me worry about that. Focus on and talk about yours. So you believe he isn't everywhere but in a specific area and place.Is that correct?
i believe He isnt in the creation but outside of it. So does your Imam. Sounds good.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 19, 2019, 12:17:22 AM
Quote
Proving that Allah(swt) is above and distinct/separated from the creation using authentic Shia Traditions.

Muslims are unanimously agreed upon the belief that, Allah(swt) was there when there was nothing other than Him. This same belief is mentioned in the below Shia tradition.

Imam Abu Ja’far(AS) said: Allah was and there was nothing other than Him. And He has always been All-knowing of whatever is (or, will be). So His knowledge of it before its being is as His knowledge of it after its being. [al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 287 : Graded as “Sahih” by Majlisi in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 2, page 10].

Next, in another Shia report we find that, the Kursi of Allah(swt) encompasses the heavens & earth and Everything is in the Kursi.

Fudayl ibn Yasar said: “Once I asked (Imam) Abu ‘Abd Allah(AS), about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, ‘His al-Kursi (the Throne) encompasses the heavens and earth.’ He said, ‘O Fudayl everything is in al-Kursi (the Throne), the heavens and earth everything is in al-Kursi.’  [al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 333 ; Graded as “ka’s Sahih” by Majlisi in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 2, page 78].

Now, the question is whether Allah(swt), everywhere and omnipresent with His Essence or Separate and above the creation?.

Since we have proven from authentic Shia report that Allah was there when there was nothing besides Him, So when Allah(swt) created a thing, either He created it and entered it or didn’t enter into it and remained distinct from it.

There can be two possibilities:

1: Allah created all things, then entered into them, including jinn, men, devils, and all the wild, squalid, vile places”, Which implies Allah even dwells in His creation.

2: Allah created all things but didn’t enter the creation and doesn’t dwell in His creation and is separate/distinct from His creation.

Interestingly, this query was answered by the Sixth Infallible Imam of Shias in authentic Shia traditions.

Imam Abu Abdillah(AS) said regarding the verse, “There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth” (58:7). He(SWT) is one and of one Essence, distinct from His creation. Regarding His essence, He described, “He has control over all things through His presence, control, and power. Nothing as small as an atom in the heavens or the Earth is absent from Him – not even things smaller or larger”. [It is] by His control and knowledge rather than His Essence, because places are limited by the four boundaries. If it (i.e. control) were by His essence, it would limit Him. [al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 325 ; Graded as “Sahih” by Majlisi in Miraat al-Uqool, vol 2, page 67-68].

If brother Noor-us-Sunnah believes that this is the same as the Salafi/Athari belief, he is mistaken. There is no doubt Allah is distinct from his creation, and there is no doubt that Allah existed and there was nothing that existed with Allah (swt).

However, Noor-us-Sunnah then claims that:

Quote

There can be two possibilities:

1: Allah created all things, then entered into them, including jinn, men, devils, and all the wild, squalid, vile places”, Which implies Allah even dwells in His creation.

2: Allah created all things but didn’t enter the creation and doesn’t dwell in His creation and is separate/distinct from His creation.


This is a false dichotomy; we can not restrict ourselves to only having these two options. Rather, there is a third view, in that Allah, the Almighty, has no form, nor confine, and is above all comprehension. He is the giver of forms, and does not himself have a form.


Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (Imam Jaffer as-Sadiq)  عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)

What Noor-us-Sunnah believes is that Allah, the Almighty, literally has a location and that is above his throne, literally, which itself is above the Kursiy and the rest of the universe. However, this is blasphemous, because of the following:

1. If Allah always existed, and nothing co-existed with him, then that means place, space, direction , which are creations of Allah, did not exist with him. He existed without space, place or direction.

2. If Allah created space, place, direction, he can't be then limited and described by the very things he himself created!

3. If Allah existed without place, space, or direction, that means he could not create the universe above or below him.

4. If Allah is literally up above, it means he is limited and encompassed by space, which allows him to be restricted and defined by coordinates (i.e. above , literally).


The reality is, this is absurd. Allah, the Almighty, existed and there was no "where". He is the one who created space and "where" for contingent, created beings with forms and shapes, thus limitations. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, he is neither literally everywhere, nor is he literally above. Allah has no body, nor form, nor confine. To claim Allah has to have a form, a shape, a body, or a confine to exist is blasphemy, and it is to put conditions on the Almighty that which should only apply to the created.

Glory be to Allah, above that which some attribute to him. That is the beauty of worshiping Allah. He is far greater than creation, not limited by that which the creation are limited with.

Brother Noor-us-Sunnah fundamentally misunderstands Shia Aqeedah on Tawheed. It would be more honest to critique the Shia position, rather than to try to shoehorn Salafi Aqeedah and try to put across the idea that our reliable sources agree with it, which is absurd.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 19, 2019, 12:56:35 AM
This is a false dichotomy; we can not restrict ourselves to only having these two options. Rather, there is a third view, in that Allah, the Almighty, has no form, nor confine, and is above all comprehension. He is the giver of forms, and does not himself have a form.

How is this a third view? Either Allah is inside the creation or separate from it. Your Hadeeth says He is separate/distinct from it. So you claiming that this is a third view is your misunderstanding, it isn't a third view.


Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (Imam Jaffer as-Sadiq)  عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)
And how does this report refute the view I presented? If you didn't understand my view, atleast ask questions before jumping to conclusions.


What Noor-us-Sunnah believes is that Allah, the Almighty, literally has a location and that is above his throne, literally, which itself is above the Kursiy and the rest of the universe. However, this is blasphemous, because of the following:

1. If Allah always existed, and nothing co-existed with him, then that means place, space, direction , which are creations of Allah, did not exist with him. He existed without space, place or direction.

2. If Allah created space, place, direction, he can't be then limited and described by the very things he himself created!
He is being described by what He Himself described with in his Scripture or what His Messenger taught. It's just like describing with attributes which creation has but His attribute is beyond comprehension, but since Allah and His Prophet(S) described him with those, we do the same. Allah is all Hearing and Seeing, while some of the creatures can see and hear as well. So describing Allah with what He Himself said in His Scripture or What Prophet(S) taught is nothing wrong.


3. If Allah existed without place, space, or direction, that means he could not create the universe above or below him.
So where did Allah create the creation? Inside of Allah ? Ma'azAllah.

4. If Allah is literally up above, it means he is limited and encompassed by space, which allows him to be restricted and defined by coordinates (i.e. above , literally).
Allah beyond creation, if space is creation then it can't encompass Allah. Rather He is encompassing the Creation, yet  separate/distinct from it. If you believe that it means that limiting Allah then Allah being not present in Creation with His Essence and Him being Seperate from it should also be considered limiting Allah as per your logic.

The reality is, this is absurd. Allah, the Almighty, existed and there was no "where". He is the one who created space and "where" for contingent, created beings with forms and shapes, thus limitations.
Now tell me, Where did Allah create space and "where"?


The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, he is neither literally everywhere, nor is he literally above.
If you believe that Allah is neither everywhere(inside creation) nor outside of creation, then you are an Atheist. Whether you like it or not. Because by "where" you mean creation and if you believe Allah isn't even outside of creation, then you imply that Allah doesn't exist, this is the result of the foolish Kalaam.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 19, 2019, 03:23:16 PM
Quote
How is this a third view? Either Allah is inside the creation or separate from it. Your Hadeeth says He is separate/distinct from it. So you claiming that this is a third view is your misunderstanding, it isn't a third view.

Our Hadith, and the consensus of our scholars are united in that there is a third view. Allah is neither somewhere, nor is he everywhere. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because as the hadith i have shown you demonstrates, as well as many other traditions bordering on i would say, Tawattur, Allah is without form, shape, and not contained or constrained.


Quote
So where did Allah create the creation? Inside of Allah ? Ma'azAllah.

Do you realize that space itself is a property of this physical universe? If this is the only universe Allah (swt) created, there is no "space" outside the universe. Space, matter, physical reality are all physical properties. Even if you removed all the atoms and left the universe as some kind of quantum vacuum which is space and energy, you would still have space being in and of itself part of the physical realm.

If you really believe , as the noble Quran clearly states, Allah was the first, and as such there was nothing coexisting with him, then you have to also affirm that space did not exist either. Therefore there was no "above" and "below", these are created things. Allah did not create anything above him or below him, he does not have a top side and a bottom side (nauzubillah). To claim so would be to also believe Allah himself was in space, such that there was an above and below.

Allah created the universe, and in creating the universe created space itself.

Quote
Allah beyond creation, if space is creation then it can't encompass Allah. Rather He is encompassing the Creation, yet  separate/distinct from it. If you believe that it means that limiting Allah then Allah being not present in Creation with His Essence and Him being Seperate from it should also be considered limiting Allah as per your logic.

Nobody denies Allah is beyond creation,  that nothing can encompass him, and that he is not present literally in created. However, what you believe is that Allah, literally is above his throne, such that we can literally point up in the direction Allah is, which is above the universe. You believe Allah has an exact location we can point to.

If Allah was literally somewhere, it means he would be literally above his throne. It would therefore mean there would be something that contained Allah (swt), because to have a location means you are in space, or in a contained area bywhich someone can say you are in that area, and above, next to, below etc something else.

Quote
Now tell me, Where did Allah create space and "where"?

When Allah created the universe, that is when he created space, and the idea of "where". "Where" only came into existence after Allah created the first creations. 

If Allah created the universe in already created space, then that space would have had to be created.

Quote
If you believe that Allah is neither everywhere(inside creation) nor outside of creation, then you are an Atheist. Whether you like it or not. Because by "where" you mean creation and if you believe Allah isn't even outside of creation, then you imply that Allah doesn't exist, this is the result of the foolish Kalaam.

1. Allah existed, and there was nothing coexisting with him.
2. Space is a physical creation of Allah, which gives physical or created objects coordinates and directions.
3. Before space existed, "where" therefore did not exist.
4. Allah created the concept of "where" when he created physical creation, and space.
5. Allah can therefore not be described by that which he created. He is as he always was, and the question of "where" does not apply to him.

This is something Christians, Ashari/Maturidi Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims and many Deists are absolutely united on.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 19, 2019, 03:55:54 PM
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 19, 2019, 07:00:28 PM
i believe He isnt in the creation but outside of it. So does your Imam. Sounds good.

"I believe He isnt in the creation"

So do I.

Outside where? Don't be hesitant or shy to discuss your belief. Either he is in a specific area or place. Or he isn't. Does he have a structure? Don't be afraid. Speak up.

This is probably your belief.

"Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah(SWT) is above the seven heavens, above His ‘Arsh(Throne), and distinct/separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him. There is a consensus(Ijma) among Ahlus-Sunnah over this belief as stated by the following classical Scholars from Ahlus-Sunnah"

Lets examine this.

"Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah(SWT) is above the seven heavens"

So he is in a specific area and place. So Allah is over there, above the seven heavens. So he isn't over here or anywhere else.

"above His ‘Arsh(Throne)"

So we get to know that he has a throne. That is something you sit on. So this would mean he has some kind of structure which isn't visible to us because he's over there and we're over here. So probably when we die and our spirit goes over there we will get to see him.

"and distinct/separated from His creatures, and His creatures are separated from Him"

That's obvious. Because we are creation. And he is creator. And we're over here. And he is over there.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 19, 2019, 07:05:52 PM
"I believe He isnt in the creation"

So do I.

Outside where? Don't be hesitant or shy to discuss your belief. Either he is in a specific area or place. Or he isn't. Does he have a structure? Don't be afraid. Speak up.
That's what you think. He is outside the creation. And if you believe that He is neither inside nor outside of creation, then you believe He is no existent. That's kind of Atheism.

And if you believe He is seperate from creation but Not outside then you taught you this belief? Did your Imam teach this to you?
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 19, 2019, 09:23:57 PM
Our Hadith, and the consensus of our scholars are united in that there is a third view. Allah is neither somewhere, nor is he everywhere. The question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because as the hadith i have shown you demonstrates, as well as many other traditions bordering on i would say, Tawattur, Allah is without form, shape, and not contained or constrained.
Which Hadeeth the one, you quoted? It doesn't show a third view. And you have a problem of making up your own arguments based on your assumptions. I didn't ask you "where is Allah"? I asked you a specific question, which you tend to dodge. I asked you "Is Allah inside the creation or outside and seperate from the creation"? So since you negate Allah being inside the creation, Do you believe He is outside of creation? Because you have negated the existence of Allah's Essence from the creation, Now either you negate His existence from outside the creation like you did for Him being inside creation Or affirm that He is outside of creation. Just by making an empty claim that there is third view, you are just fooling yourself.

Do you realize that space itself is a property of this physical universe? If this is the only universe Allah (swt) created, there is no "space" outside the universe. Space, matter, physical reality are all physical properties. Even if you removed all the atoms and left the universe as some kind of quantum vacuum which is space and energy, you would still have space being in and of itself part of the physical realm.
All these things which you mentioned do you perceive them as creation? If yes then Allah is outside and seperate from it. So if Allah doesn't exist with his Essence in the creation, then are you implying that Allah doesn't exist outside of creation as well, as there is no existence outside creation? Which implies Allah(Swt) doesn't exist as per Shias. Ma'azAllah, this is a horrible and blasphemous belief.


If you really believe , as the noble Quran clearly states, Allah was the first, and as such there was nothing coexisting with him, then you have to also affirm that space did not exist either. Therefore there was no "above" and "below", these are created things. Allah did not create anything above him or below him, he does not have a top side and a bottom side (nauzubillah). To claim so would be to also believe Allah himself was in space, such that there was an above and below.

Allah created the universe, and in creating the universe created space itself.
This isn't the answer to the question. The question was where did Allah create the creation. Inside of Himself? Ma'azAllah! So please answer it, instead of dodging the question with un-needed claims.

Nobody denies Allah is beyond creation,  that nothing can encompass him, and that he is not present literally in created.
MashaAllah! There seems to be some progress. So what's the problem in saying that Allah(swt) exists outside and seperate from creation. Because if you believe that Allah is outside and seperate from creation, you have come a lot closer to the Aqeedah of Ahlus-sunnah.


If Allah was literally somewhere, it means he would be literally above his throne. It would therefore mean there would be something that contained Allah (swt), because to have a location means you are in space, or in a contained area by which someone can say you are in that area, and above, next to, below etc something else.
Now here lies the problem, first you don't get that we believe Allah is outside and seperate from creation, so if this is the primary belief, then it nullifies the claim that Allah is in space which is a creation, while the primary belief is that, Allah is outside of creation. So your logic is actually messed up. You are disregarding a primary belief just to fit the  philosophical arguments you made to negate the belief that Allah is over His throne. And why do Ahlus-sunnah believe that Allah is over His throne? It is because Allah Himself affirmed in Quran and the Prophet(S) acknowledged this in authentic Hadeeth.  While still believing at the same time that Allah is outside of creation be it space or anything.

When Allah created the universe, that is when he created space, and the idea of "where". "Where" only came into existence after Allah created the first creations.
Fine, So Since there was nothing but Allah before He created anything, Did He create the creation inside of Himself?


This is something Christians, Ashari/Maturidi Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims and many Deists are absolutely united on.
Funny this reminds me of this quote from one of the Salaf.

Sa`eed bin `Aamir Ad-Dab`i (d. 208 H.), one of Imam Bukhari’s teachers, said: «The Jahmiyyah have said worse than the Jews and Christians, the Jews, Christians and the people of religions have agreed that Allah –Tabaraka wa Ta`ala- is over the Throne, and they (the Jahmiyyah) said: ‘There is nothing over the Throne.
https://youpuncturedtheark.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/mukhtasar-al-uluw-for-al-dhahabi-by-al-albani-page-168.png
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 19, 2019, 10:21:34 PM
That's what you think. He is outside the creation. And if you believe that He is neither inside nor outside of creation, then you believe He is no existent. That's kind of Atheism.

And if you believe He is seperate from creation but Not outside then you taught you this belief? Did your Imam teach this to you?

Why are you so scared stiff to talk about your belief in Allah. You haven't answered anything that I've asked you.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 19, 2019, 10:40:30 PM
Why are you so scared stiff to talk about your belief in Allah. You haven't answered anything that I've asked you.
The answer is right there, but the problem is your internal fear which makes you state otherwise. Or else, you are too dumb to understand.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2019, 01:40:28 AM
The answer is right there, but the problem is your internal fear which makes you state otherwise. Or else, you are too dumb to understand.

And what fear is that. Why is my internal fear scaring the living daylights out of you.  You start a thread, I ask you simple questions and you go all wonky.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: whoaretheshia on December 20, 2019, 09:50:35 PM
Quote
This isn't the answer to the question. The question was where did Allah create the creation. Inside of Himself? Ma'azAllah! So please answer it, instead of dodging the question with un-needed claims.

Brother Noor-us-Sunnah is asking "Where did Allah create the creation".

I have explained to the brother that the question of "Where" did not apply until Allah, the Almighty first created space, and dimension and creation. Without space and dimension, there was no "where". Space , and "Where" are creations of Allah, the Almighty.

To claim that Allah could have only created it in himself, or outside of himself, means there was some "space" outside of Allah. I ask the brother, if Allah was the first, without any other, how could he have existed co-eternally with some external space?

If Allah existed, and there was no space, no dimension, no "where", the when Allah created time, physical matter and space i.e. the universe, that is when "where" first existed because without space and dimension there was no "where".

If "where" is a creation of Allah due to space and dimension, then the question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because he himself created it.

Our Salafi brothers believe that you can literally point to where Allah is i.e. he is up above, literally above the universe, above his created throne. They give Allah place and direction, when place, space, direction and "where" did not exist , but were things Allah created. He is as he always was, above our comprehension, without form or confine, and not described or limited by what he himself created.

This is the Aqeedah of the Shia, and the Aqeedah of the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah i.e. the Asharis and Maturidis, and this is the dominant view of the Christians and Jews today.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 20, 2019, 11:40:00 PM
Brother Noor-us-Sunnah is asking "Where did Allah create the creation".

I have explained to the brother that the question of "Where" did not apply until Allah, the Almighty first created space, and dimension and creation. Without space and dimension, there was no "where". Space , and "Where" are creations of Allah, the Almighty.

To claim that Allah could have only created it in himself, or outside of himself, means there was some "space" outside of Allah. I ask the brother, if Allah was the first, without any other, how could he have existed co-eternally with some external space?

If Allah existed, and there was no space, no dimension, no "where", the when Allah created time, physical matter and space i.e. the universe, that is when "where" first existed because without space and dimension there was no "where".

If "where" is a creation of Allah due to space and dimension, then the question of "where" does not apply to Allah, because he himself created it.

Our Salafi brothers believe that you can literally point to where Allah is i.e. he is up above, literally above the universe, above his created throne. They give Allah place and direction, when place, space, direction and "where" did not exist , but were things Allah created. He is as he always was, above our comprehension, without form or confine, and not described or limited by what he himself created.

This is the Aqeedah of the Shia, and the Aqeedah of the orthodox Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaah i.e. the Asharis and Maturidis, and this is the dominant view of the Christians and Jews today.

I know it very well why you are scared to even quote me, when you are answering, you know that you have no answer to my points, that why you try to ruse the readers with such attempts by not quoting me.

You say that Outside of creation means there was space as per your logic. Fine. But here you are stuck with an extremely problematic issue, which is actually blasphemous. Let me explain it to you:

We both accept that Allah doesn't exist inside the creation with His essence.

Now you say that beyond/outside of creation implies that there is space where Allah can't exist, according to you. So it means Allah doesn't exist as per you people. You deny the existence of His essence inside the creation, and you deny the existence of His essence out the creation. Hence this is heretical view, resembling the view of Atheists. Which is contrary to people of religion. May Allah save Muslims from falling into such blasphemous views.

Any person blessed with intellect would realize the heresy in this view. That Allah with His Essence neither exists inside of creation Nor outside of creation. 

While the belief of Ahlus-sunnah is what Quran says and what Prophet Muhammad(S) said in his hadeeth. Alhamdulillah, we Sunnis are proud in follow Quran and the Prophet(S) while for you there is faulty Kalam developed by human beings, due to which you have denied the existence of Allah from outside the creation.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 21, 2019, 01:25:34 PM
Me and the Shia brother here both are in agreement that Allah with His essence doesn't exist inside the creation. And I think he even believes that there is no existence outside of creation, meaning nothing exist outside of creation or saying outside of creation itself is wrong because there is no such existence. 

So a one-liner for Shia brother's belief would be:

"Allah with His essence doesn't exist in the creation and there is no existence outside of creation".

Is it fine for you Shia brother? If I attributed to you something which you don't believe then let me know and avoid giving explanations, we will proceed gradually if you claim that this isn't your belief. For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?

Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2019, 08:14:25 PM
Me and the Shia brother here both are in agreement that Allah with His essence doesn't exist inside the creation. And I think he even believes that there is no existence outside of creation, meaning nothing exist outside of creation or saying outside of creation itself is wrong because there is no such existence. 

So a one-liner for Shia brother's belief would be:

"Allah with His essence doesn't exist in the creation and there is no existence outside of creation".

Is it fine for you Shia brother? If I attributed to you something which you don't believe then let me know and avoid giving explanations, we will proceed gradually if you claim that this isn't your belief. For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?

"For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?"

And what about your belief? Why are you too hesitant to answer questions relating to your belief. It's according to the thread and what's being discussed (Tauheed).
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 23, 2019, 12:08:20 AM
Allah has a hand according to Sunni sources.
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 479 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira,

"The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?"'

Allah also has a foot according to Sunni sources.

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 481 :
Narrated by Anas,

"The Prophet said, "(The people will be thrown into Hell ( Fire) and it will keep on saying, 'Is there any more?' till the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say, 'Qad! Qad! (enough! enough!) By Your 'Izzat (Honor and Power) and YOUR KARAM (Generosity)!' Paradise will remain spacious enough to accommodate more people until Allah will create some more people and let them dwell in the superfluous space of Paradise.."
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 23, 2019, 12:48:25 AM
Allah has a hand according to Sunni sources.
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 479 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira,

"The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?"'

Allah also has a foot according to Sunni sources.

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 481 :
Narrated by Anas,

"The Prophet said, "(The people will be thrown into Hell ( Fire) and it will keep on saying, 'Is there any more?' till the Lord of the worlds puts His Foot over it, whereupon its different sides will come close to each other, and it will say, 'Qad! Qad! (enough! enough!) By Your 'Izzat (Honor and Power) and YOUR KARAM (Generosity)!' Paradise will remain spacious enough to accommodate more people until Allah will create some more people and let them dwell in the superfluous space of Paradise.."

According to Sunni sources Allah will be seen.

Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 529 :
Narrated by Jarir,

"We were sitting with the Prophet and he looked at the moon on the night of the full-moon and said, "You people will see your Lord as you see this full moon, and you will have no trouble in seeing Him, so if you can avoid missing (through sleep or business, etc.) a prayer before sunrise (Fajr) and a prayer before sunset (Asr) you must do so." (See Hadith No. 529, Vol. 1)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 530 :
Narrated by Jarir bin 'Abdullah
The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

So anything that can be seen will have some sort of structure, shape or form.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 23, 2019, 01:31:18 AM
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 563 :
Narrated by Abu Qatada,

"When the people slept till so late that they did not offer the (morning) prayer, the Prophet said, "Allah captured your souls (made you sleep) when He willed, and returned them (to your bodies) when He willed." So the people got up and went to answer the call of nature, performed ablution, till the sun had risen and it had become white, then the Prophet got up and offered the prayer"

So if you decide to sleep till late and not bother to offer morning prayers then it ain't your fault and you haven't done anything wrong. Allah captured your souls (made you sleep) when He willed, and returned them (to your bodies) when He willed.

This seems to be getting better and better.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 23, 2019, 01:37:18 PM
According to Sunni sources Allah will be seen.
O desperate Shia savior, who jumped in to save his Shia friend realizing that he was cornered in a deadly situation, utilizing his invincible weapon of "stupidity", I'm not in a mood to let you derail this topic with your invincible weapon of stupidity. So have some patience and let the other Shia answer. After that I will teach you what your own Imams in your Shia ahadeeth state. For then keep your invincible weapon to yourself, because I can't drop to your level nor do I have your weapon.


Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 23, 2019, 01:38:43 PM
Me and the Shia brother here both are in agreement that Allah with His essence doesn't exist inside the creation. And I think he even believes that there is no existence outside of creation, meaning nothing exist outside of creation or saying outside of creation itself is wrong because there is no such existence. 

So a one-liner for Shia brother's belief would be:

"Allah with His essence doesn't exist in the creation and there is no existence outside of creation".

Is it fine for you Shia brother? If I attributed to you something which you don't believe then let me know and avoid giving explanations, we will proceed gradually if you claim that this isn't your belief. For now just let me know whether I was correct in defining your belief or not?

Bump for Shia friend "WhoaretheShia" , I await your response.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: iceman on December 24, 2019, 01:00:07 AM
O desperate Shia savior, who jumped in to save his Shia friend realizing that he was cornered in a deadly situation, utilizing his invincible weapon of "stupidity", I'm not in a mood to let you derail this topic with your invincible weapon of stupidity. So have some patience and let the other Shia answer. After that I will teach you what your own Imams in your Shia ahadeeth state. For then keep your invincible weapon to yourself, because I can't drop to your level nor do I have your weapon.

I didn't jump in. I've been here all the time. You're too afraid to engage with me. And that's a fact. What's in sehih Bukhari isn't my stupidity. No need to teach me about my Imam, learn about the flaws within your own aqeedah. Relax and digest what's coming to you from sehih Bukhari at the moment.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: muslim720 on December 24, 2019, 01:18:22 AM
Therefore there was no "above" and "below", these are created things. Allah did not create anything above him or below him, he does not have a top side and a bottom side (nauzubillah).

Why are you limiting the meaning of "above" and "below" to physical space?  "Above" can also mean "superior to" whereas "below" can also mean "beneath" as in being subservient to Allah (swt) or in His Control.  In other words, Allah (swt) being "above" something or something being "below" Allah (swt) can also mean Allah (swt) is superior to and in control of that something.


Quote
However, what you believe is that Allah, literally is above his throne, such that we can literally point up in the direction Allah is, which is above the universe. You believe Allah has an exact location we can point to.

When someone points up, it is not to show Allah's (swt) location but to point to what appears - humanly at least - to be outside the universe, and by extension, beyond creation.  In other words, a human points up to show God being outside the creation, not to point to his exact physical location.


Quote
If Allah was literally somewhere, it means he would be literally above his throne. It would therefore mean there would be something that contained Allah (swt), because to have a location means you are in space, or in a contained area bywhich someone can say you are in that area, and above, next to, below etc something else.

Classic strawman!  You substantiate your own lack of knowledge with further misunderstanding and misrepresentation.


Quote
1. Allah existed, and there was nothing coexisting with him.
2. Space is a physical creation of Allah, which gives physical or created objects coordinates and directions.
3. Before space existed, "where" therefore did not exist.
4. Allah created the concept of "where" when he created physical creation, and space.
5. Allah can therefore not be described by that which he created. He is as he always was, and the question of "where" does not apply to him.

All this because you took a single interpretation of the word "above" to build up a narrow view which you could then attack.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 22, 2020, 11:54:15 PM
Bump for Shia friend "WhoaretheShia" , I await your response.

What an irony, this guy who is confused over his own beliefs and can't answer when he is trapped over his own statements, he made a post(which got deleted due to tech issue on forum) inviting brother Bolani Muslim.

Pathetic and shameless.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Rauf Murtuzov on May 23, 2020, 01:31:06 AM
Allah has a hand according to Sunni sources.
Sehih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 479 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira,

"The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His right hand and say, 'I am the King: where are the kings of the earth?"'

What about Quran (38:75, 39:67) ?


Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Soccer on May 23, 2020, 07:18:21 AM
There is no such thing as physical existence, dualism is irrational.
We are ideas/words spoken by God, we exist exactly in God's vision.  God's vision creates and keeps reality as it is, it's the real way things exist.

Who you are is not a physical thing, and in fact, physical is impossible by definition to exist. Everything is made out of spiritual stuff. Spiritual stuff don't have location, location and time and space is just an abstraction feature of the world we live.  Just like in a video game, your body avatar in the video game and world is not real, physical world is not real.

The only reality is IDEA type existence, spiritual existence, and everything in the universe is made from words of God spoken to life,  God is the living, all life stems from him.

Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Soccer on May 23, 2020, 07:49:50 AM
So where did Allah create the creation? Inside of Allah ? Ma'azAllah.
 Allah beyond creation, if space is creation then it can't encompass Allah. Rather He is encompassing the Creation, yet  separate/distinct from it. If you believe that it means that limiting Allah then Allah being not present in Creation with His Essence and Him being Seperate from it should also be considered limiting Allah as per your logic.
 Now tell me, Where did Allah create space and "where

Location and space aren't a reality, they are just interaction tools, they don't measure what consists of reality.

God's Existence is REAL - and we are souls, things ALL are souls, there is no such thing as anything else but God and souls.

Now souls can be more distant from God or closer, but this has nothing to do with space.

Space, time, and the world you experience, is created by God and his Authorities and Angels, you don't see existence for what it is through space.

When you try to imagine physical existence, you are imagining the opposite of spiritual existence and then saying matter or material is formed of that. What is that? IT's nothing, can't be imagined, and has nothing to do with God's Life and Reality.

Furthermore physical world has no way to interact with soul if this is the case, dualism is irrational, because they are defined opposite with respect to essence and reality. There is no connection between physical and idea world.

What you experience is purely that experience.

God's vision is where we really exist and how we exist and who we are is only defined there.

Nothing else can see us but God.

There is no physical world to be outside of simply because it's a simulation.
Title: Re: Allah is above and distinct from the Creation –Proven from Reliable Shia Reports
Post by: Soccer on May 24, 2020, 03:22:21 AM
Even though I put Shia and whatever, it's just for convention. In reality, I don't believe in labels and dividing on that.


I wrote this on another forum:

Titles mean a whole a lot but at the same time a whole lot of nothing.

Even Christian vs Jew vs Muslim is artificial division. I consider many people even Atheists to be submitters to God because they follow morality and goodness to their best of their ability.

I only consider disbelievers people who deny when it's so clear, clear as in they know it so plainly and beyond doubt, yet choose to trick themselves. Disbelief and Shirk is condemned in Quran in context of Mohammad (s) performing miracles and being accused of being lying sorcerer or a possessed one by demons that is taught.

Since Quran devoted so much to why miracles are signs from God and why the power from Mohammad there is directly from God and it's not acquired skill like other knowledges, I don't equate other humans as transgressors or disbelievers or non-submitters or arrogant or evil or oppressive, that I have no proof they are that.

Most people with respect to the proof of God and his religion, are what the Quran terms "musta'afeen", which means without the ability or power to deny the truth nor affirm it.

It's artificial, but since I want to describe who I primarily (though I read Kabala and gnostic works of Christians too) rely on, I say I believe in Mohammad and also believe had twelve Successors. This doesn't mean I'm not a follower of Christ nor that I'm less sincere to Moses nor that I can't make use of other people of other religions and learn from them.

Muslim has so many meanings, we don't even agree on what God is, let alone other things, so it's quite meaningless the title now.

And Quran titled us submitters, but so it call us believers, so did it call us followers, so did call us party of God, so did it call us friends of God. It called submission the religion, but also other names, like the rising religion, the human nature, the light of God, and called us Wilayah (which means the relationship God has with humans and Jinn including being their authority, leader, master, friend, helper, etc) and vice verse Wilayah (as in what role we have with respect to God) and called it Worshiping God as well.

Why submission stoke, it has to do with history. Submission in Quran is used primarily to emphasize, this is why you have to accept and obey the Messenger. Why we picked this title out of all titles, has to do with the authoritarian route we went.

Another title of the proper religion is being Rabiniyoon which means "knowledgeable devotees to God free from the vanities of this world". And there is other names like the ones who know, those who possess understanding, the people of insight, those who hear.

We aren't named Muslims nor Islam, we are titled that as a description among many. But now a days, if you don't testify to Mohammad, we say "you aren't a believer" when Quran categorically forbid that behavior "O you who believe, if you travel in the earth, never say you are not a believer, thus you were before till God..."

Why do we divide on color but not on how tall we are? Why do we divide on religion titles as opposed to other things like what morals you believe in?

Division is meaningless, I don't subscribe to it. Titles you get mixed with a bag of people, and than have to explain why you don't believe so much of what they believe. But what they believe is not what they thought through but they rely on other authorities over them.

And so I'd rather not play this title game. All titles are misconceptions more then they are truth about a people, but even if true about a people, are they true about the founding guides and teachings they claim to represent. That's what I'm finding out - and these divisions don't make sense to me.

Obviously dividing on this methodology, humans will not unite on truth nor love nor friendship.

Creed is important, but really, not worth dividing from other humans upon. Titles are just that, titles, and never define anyone or any group or reveal much about the teachings they hold on to nor do an iota justice to any real Messenger from God or Guidance of a book.

Mohammad and Ali and Abraham and Moses and Jesus and Noah and the Mahdi are neither Muslims nor Islam their religion, they are rather upright submitters to God who don't believe in division.

Islam is claimed to be their religion by Muslims, that doesn't mean anything really. It's a claim.

And if you are trying to figure out what they believe - that's endless growth, you never reach that. So there is no point of arguing and dividing on every issue, which is what Muslims did exactly with regards to. All sorts of titles under titles under titles, that divide and further divide.

We have to accept humans will misunderstand some of God's teachings, be forbearing, accept differences, and don't let labels divide us.


I think if anything is worth dividing on, it's in matters of justice and human rights. But we can't expect everyone to understand every matter of justice and human rights so as to divide on each difference. But why religion, why do we think God is so not forbearing and wants us to divide on every disputed matter of thing related to religion, I don't know. Seems some sinister spell is going on here "must be something in the water".