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Refutation: Ali best of men

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omar111

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2015, 08:23:13 PM »
Furthermore, Sh. Al-Homaid (p. 10) states that “most of the people that spoke about this (Tawatur) said that one doesn’t need to look at the narrators of the chains, and they seem to mean the Dhabt (i.e. the ability to retain a Hadith), as for their `Adalah (justness) it definitely needs to be looked into.”

It is clear that Sh. Al-Homaid holds this opinion since it is very possible for a large group of people to come together and narrate a lie. It is also very possible for a great number of folks to all believe in rumors and spread them such as what happens very often in our days, human nature never changed. In other words, one cannot treat Tawatur as acceptable simply for including a large number of people. Al-Judai 1/43 also adds that the number of narrators is not sufficient without knowing who the narrators are.

Shi`ee scholar of Hadith `Abd al-Hadi al-Fahdli says in Usool `Ilm al-Hadith (p. 73) that a big group of people can transmit a lie even if they did not conspire to do so, what leads them to doing this are their desires and their love of advertising or spreading what agrees with their beliefs without the need to conspire together to achieve this. He then says on the same page:

“Knowing that these folks have not conspired does not remove the possibility of intentional lying. So we must add to the definition (of Mutawatir): ‘In a way that it is safe to assume that they have not lied.’ This safety can be realized by the the number of narrators and their reliability, or that there is no reason to lie in that specific topic as well as other factors.”

Source:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/08/25/understanding-the-mutawatir-and-the-tawatur/
So the hadith `Ali the best of men`can be sahi as mutwatir?Because why would such a large group of sunnis would lie on Ali?

zichan

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2015, 11:39:53 PM »
Alhamdulillah the narration from Sunni-Sources are done so far. If someone knows any narration which i didn't mentioned, pls let me know.

So the hadith `Ali the best of men`can be sahi as mutwatir ? Because why would such a large group of sunnis would lie on Ali?

How would this narration be Mutawatir ?


Now i will start analyzing the narration mentioned by Imami scholar Jafar bin Ahmad bin Ali Al-Qummi in his "Nawader Al-Athar fi Ali Khayral Bashar". He mentioned 79 chains and it's seems that he collected all narration he could find in both sunni and shii sources.   

Narration #1

حدثنا أبو محمد الهروي جعفر بن أحمد بن موسى التلعكبري رحمه ال قال : حدثني أحمد بن سعيد ، قال حدثني :محمد بن عبيد بن عتبة الكندي ، قال : حدثني عبد الرحمن بن سويد عن أبيه عن الأعمش عن عاصم ابن عمرو عن جابر بن عبد الله قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و اله وسلم : (( علي خير البشر من شك فيه فقد كفر

Abu Muhammad Al-Harawy Ja’far bin Ahmad bin Musa al-Talla'ukbary - Ahmad bin Said - Muhammad bin Ubaid bin Utbah al-Kindy - Abdalrahman bin Suwaid - from his father - Al-Amash - Aasim ibn Amro - Jabr bin Abdilllah said: Rasullallah (Sallallahu alaihi wa Sallam) said: Ali is the best of creation,whoever doubts,  then he has disbelieved.

grading: weak

1) Abu Muhammad Al-Harawy Ja’far bin Ahmad bin Musa al-Talla'ukbary, majhool (unknown) - [Al-Mufid min Mujam Rijal Al-Hadith]
2) Muhammad bin Ubaid bin Utbah al-Kindy, majhool - [Mustadrakat Ilm Rijal al-Hadith]
3) Al-Amash, majhool.

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2015, 01:03:28 AM »
Furthermore, Sh. Al-Homaid (p. 10) states that “most of the people that spoke about this (Tawatur) said that one doesn’t need to look at the narrators of the chains, and they seem to mean the Dhabt (i.e. the ability to retain a Hadith), as for their `Adalah (justness) it definitely needs to be looked into.”

It is clear that Sh. Al-Homaid holds this opinion since it is very possible for a large group of people to come together and narrate a lie. It is also very possible for a great number of folks to all believe in rumors and spread them such as what happens very often in our days, human nature never changed. In other words, one cannot treat Tawatur as acceptable simply for including a large number of people. Al-Judai 1/43 also adds that the number of narrators is not sufficient without knowing who the narrators are.

Shi`ee scholar of Hadith `Abd al-Hadi al-Fahdli says in Usool `Ilm al-Hadith (p. 73) that a big group of people can transmit a lie even if they did not conspire to do so, what leads them to doing this are their desires and their love of advertising or spreading what agrees with their beliefs without the need to conspire together to achieve this. He then says on the same page:

“Knowing that these folks have not conspired does not remove the possibility of intentional lying. So we must add to the definition (of Mutawatir): ‘In a way that it is safe to assume that they have not lied.’ This safety can be realized by the the number of narrators and their reliability, or that there is no reason to lie in that specific topic as well as other factors.”

Source:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/08/25/understanding-the-mutawatir-and-the-tawatur/
So the hadith `Ali the best of men`can be sahi as mutwatir?Because why would such a large group of sunnis would lie on Ali?

Did this narration reach us from any acceptable chain of narrators?

Also, the fact about the different wording should be kept in mind, one says Ali is FROM the best of men, it is possible that other narrators narrated the same report by dropping the important part which showed Ali was one of the best men. If you ask me the reason for this, then it is the weak chains.

omar111

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2015, 08:03:52 PM »
Furthermore, Sh. Al-Homaid (p. 10) states that “most of the people that spoke about this (Tawatur) said that one doesn’t need to look at the narrators of the chains, and they seem to mean the Dhabt (i.e. the ability to retain a Hadith), as for their `Adalah (justness) it definitely needs to be looked into.”

It is clear that Sh. Al-Homaid holds this opinion since it is very possible for a large group of people to come together and narrate a lie. It is also very possible for a great number of folks to all believe in rumors and spread them such as what happens very often in our days, human nature never changed. In other words, one cannot treat Tawatur as acceptable simply for including a large number of people. Al-Judai 1/43 also adds that the number of narrators is not sufficient without knowing who the narrators are.

Shi`ee scholar of Hadith `Abd al-Hadi al-Fahdli says in Usool `Ilm al-Hadith (p. 73) that a big group of people can transmit a lie even if they did not conspire to do so, what leads them to doing this are their desires and their love of advertising or spreading what agrees with their beliefs without the need to conspire together to achieve this. He then says on the same page:

“Knowing that these folks have not conspired does not remove the possibility of intentional lying. So we must add to the definition (of Mutawatir): ‘In a way that it is safe to assume that they have not lied.’ This safety can be realized by the the number of narrators and their reliability, or that there is no reason to lie in that specific topic as well as other factors.”

Source:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/08/25/understanding-the-mutawatir-and-the-tawatur/
So the hadith `Ali the best of men`can be sahi as mutwatir?Because why would such a large group of sunnis would lie on Ali?

Did this narration reach us from any acceptable chain of narrators?

Also, the fact about the different wording should be kept in mind, one says Ali is FROM the best of men, it is possible that other narrators narrated the same report by dropping the important part which showed Ali was one of the best men. If you ask me the reason for this, then it is the weak chains.
So how many Sahi Ahadith are required to make a hadith mutwatir.It was my understanding that a mass transmitted hadith is not dependent on isnad.
Al-Hakim al-Haskani in his Shawahid al-Tanzil, vol. 2, p. 40 also states:

أقول : الحديث متواتر ، وفي مثله لا يضر ضعف الجميع فضلا عن ضعف البعض

You rightly added that intent of the group is also important.But these are not Rafdhi narrators.This is intresting point that they meant one of the best and not the best.

If not mutwatir,can we count this hadith as Hasan Mashoor?

Hani

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2015, 09:39:41 PM »
The difference between an authentic mass-transmitted report and a mass-transmitted lie/rumor is that among those "many" chains you're supposed to find at least one authentic one.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

zichan

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2015, 10:38:18 PM »
So how many Sahi Ahadith are required to make a hadith mutwatir.It was my understanding that a mass transmitted hadith is not dependent on isnad.
Al-Hakim al-Haskani in his Shawahid al-Tanzil, vol. 2, p. 40 also states:

أقول : الحديث متواتر ، وفي مثله لا يضر ضعف الجميع فضلا عن ضعف البعض

You rightly added that intent of the group is also important.But these are not Rafdhi narrators.This is intresting point that they meant one of the best and not the best.

If not mutwatir,can we count this hadith as Hasan Mashoor?

Brother Aba Abdallah already qouted this to understand:

Furthermore, Sh. Al-Homaid (p. 10) states that “most of the people that spoke about this (Tawatur) said that one doesn’t need to look at the narrators of the chains, and they seem to mean the Dhabt (i.e. the ability to retain a Hadith), as for their `Adalah (justness) it definitely needs to be looked into.”

How would this narration be hasan ?

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2015, 01:18:36 PM »
Quote
The difference between an authentic mass-transmitted report and a mass-transmitted lie/rumor is that among those "many" chains you're supposed to find at least one authentic one.

Ibn Hajr al asqalani including the majority of your classical scholars disagree with you.

شروط التواتر :
وهذه الشروط تنقسم الى قسمين :
القسم الأول : شروط متفق عليها بين العلماء.
القسم الثاني : شروط مختلف فيها بينهم.

القسم الأول (شروط متفق عليها), فيه ثلاثة شروط :
الأول : أن يخبر عدد التواتر عن شيء قد علموه ضرورة عن طريق المحسوس من احد الحواس الخمس, اما البصر أو السمع أو الشم أو اللمس أو الذوق.
والثاني : أن يستوي طرفا الخبر ووسطه في هذه الصفة, وفي كمال العدد.
والثالث : كان العدد المخبرين يحصل به التواتر الذي يمتنع عادة تواطؤهم على الكذب, ويحصل لنا العلم بخبرهم.

والقسم الثاني (شروط مختلف فيها), فيه شرطان :
الأول : كون المخبرين مسلمين وعدولا.
واختلف فيه على مذهبين :
القول الأول : أنه يشترط في التواتر أن يكون المختبرون مسلمين وعدولا, فلا يقبل التواتر من الكفار ولا من الفساق. (وهذا القول نسب الى عبد الله بن عبدان الشافعي, قاله في كتابه "الشرائط")
والقول الثاني : أنه لا يشترط في التواتر. (وهذا ما ذهب اليه ابن قدامة, وهو مذهب الجمهور العلماء).

The majority of your scholars hold on to the position that there doesn't even have to be one sahih chain, in fact, they claim that the chains can contains fasiq and unjust people.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 01:44:19 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

Hani

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2015, 07:38:07 PM »
I remind you of this:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/08/25/understanding-the-mutawatir-and-the-tawatur/

I personally have my own standard for what I consider Mutawatir. Especially knowing the number of Hadith thieves and compulsive liars in the past 1,400 years. For me, from the biggest signs of fabrication is a great multitude of chains none of which happen to be "Sahih" or even "Hasan".

Note:This report is collected by the biggest scholars in their books of fabricated reports such as Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Jawraqani, al-Suyuti, Ibn `Iraq and al-Shawkani.

A glimpse of what al-Shawkani said about this great Mutawatir report (sarcasm):

رواه الخطيب، عن علي، مرفوعًا، وهو موضوع، والمتهم به: محمد بن كثير الكوفي، ورواه الحاكم عن ابن مسعود عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم عن جبريل أنه قال: يا محمد، على خير البشر، من أبي فقد كفر، وفي إسناده: محمد بن علي الجرجاني، وهو المتهم به، ومحمد بن شجاع الثلجي وهو كذاب، وعمر بن حفص الكوفي، وليس بشيء، ورواه الخطيب عن جابر مرفوعًا بهذا اللفظ، ولم يذكر جبريل. وفي إٍسناده: كذاب. وقال في الميزان: إنه باطل
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 07:51:48 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2015, 07:56:15 PM »
similar to this report actually

نعم الرجل أبو بكر ، نعم الرجل عمر ، نعم الرجل أبو عبيدة بن الجراح
The Prophet PBUH said: The best of men is Abu Bakr, The best of men is Umar, the best of men is Abu Ubaidah bin al Jarrah.

Other version:
نعم الرجل أبو بكر نعم الرجل عمر نعم الرجل أبو عبيدة بن الجراح نعم الرجل أسيد بن حضير نعم الرجل ثابت بن قيس بن شماس نعم الرجل معاذ بن عمرو بن الجموح
The Prophet PBUH said: The best of men is Abu Bakr, the best of men is Umar, the best of men is Abu Ubaidah bin al Jarrah, the best of men is Asîd ibn Hadir, the best of men is Thabit bin Qays, the best of men is Qays bin Shamas, the best of men is Mu'ath bin Amro bin al jumouh.


sources:

- Ibn Asakir said Mahfouz in Tareekh Dimashq 25/469
- Nawawi said Isnad is Sahih in Tahtheeb al Asmaa wal Lughat 2/99
- Ibn Katheer said Isnad is on the condition of Muslim in al Bidaya wal Nihaya 5/296
- al-Thahabi said a good Isnad in Siyar A'ala al Nubalaa 1/341
- Tirmithi said good in his Sunan #3795
- al-Albani said Sahih on the condition of Muslim in al Silsilah al Sahiha 2/534
- al-Wadi'ee said good in Sahih al Musnad #1309

Sources and grading need verification.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

omar111

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2015, 09:00:07 PM »
ابن حميد، صالح بن عبد الله is a respected faqih but not a mohaddis.His opinion is not superior to sheikh Albani.
الدكتوراه: شريعة الفقه وأصوله - مكة المكرمة 1402هـ
الماجستير: الفقه وأصوله – مكة المكرمة – 1396هـ
الجامعية: شريعة – مكة المكرمة 1392-1395هـ
الثانوية العامة: مكة المكرمة 1386-1387هـ
Muhadathien are pretty clear that isnad of a mass transmitted hadith will not be checked.
Imam al-Suyuti states in Tadrib al-Rawi, vol. 2, p. 176 while writing about a mutawatir Hadith:

ولذلك يجب العمل به من غير بحث عن رجاله

This is why it is OBLIGATORY to act upon it WITHOUT CHECKING ITS NARRATORS.
But I think muhadithen just pick and choose a hadith they liked as mass transmitted.

لا يؤمن أحدكم حتى يكون هواه تبعا لما جئت به

"None of you believes until his desires are in accordance with what I have brought."is mass transmitted

Imam Nawawi was from the only few to class it as saheeh, while the vast majority of muhaditheen and other scholars (Albani) have classed this narration as weak

قال ابن عساكر : " حديث غريب " .
وقال ابن رجب : " تصحيح هذا الحديث بعيد جداً " .
وضعفه الشيخ محمد ناصر الدين الألباني .

قلت : نعيم ضعيف ، وفيه مقال معروف .

و عقبة بن أوس لم يثبت له سماع من ابن عمرو .

فتبين مما سبق أن للحديث ثلاث علل :
1- ضعف نعيم بن حماد .
2- اضطراب نعيم فيه .
3- انقطاعه بين عقبة بن أوس ، وعبدالله بن عمرو .

ومع هذا صححه أبونعيم بإخراجه له في " الأربعين " !
والنووي في " الأربعين " ( رقم 41 ) !
وقال ابن حجر في " الفتح " ( ج13 / ص289 ) : " رجاله ثقات " !

Hani

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2015, 10:16:33 PM »
Again al-Albani said in al-Hashiyah:

فقد اختلفوا اختلافا كثيرا في عدده

[They differed greatly in its required numbers]

Meaning, what is Mutawatir for you is not Mutawatir for me. If you think 12 distinct chains are Mutawatir I think 20 etc...

He also adds:

بل يعتبر ما يفيد العلم على حسب العادة في سكون النفس إليهم

[What is considered is what gives certainty (in its authenticity) and makes one at ease]

وعدم تأتي التواطؤ على الكذب منهم ، إما لفرط كثرتهم ، وإما لصلاحهم ودينهم ونحو ذلك

[And that its narrators did not conspire to lie either because of their number or piety and the like]

Well here's the thing, seeing as though the Rafidah are compulsive liars and seeing as they fabricated hundreds of reports, I don't really feel at "ease" unless I see one authentic chain out of the seven or nine chains present. We already have sufficient evidence of mass-fabrications by the Rafidah and surely political motives were also there.

I'll look into it more (Farid can also participate)
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Moin

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2015, 03:09:22 PM »
The claim that a narration with multiple chains is not to be analysed is when the many chains gather on a common narrator.

Suppose twenty people narrate a narration from Ali (ra). So the quote claim that the status of these twenty narrators are not to be checked as they are two many. This is considerable opinion. But the question, which many people ignore while reading these quote is, whether the isnad is authentic till these twenty people or not? Unless it is authentically established that these twenty people have really claimed to have heard this from Ali there is no point applying the rule as the narration is apparently mutawatir from Ali not from the twenty sub narrators.

I give an example for it.. The hadith that actions depends on intention is solely reported from the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) by Umar, and from him only alqama narrates it, and from alqama only Muhammad b. Ibrahim at-Taimi narrates it, and from at-Taimi only Yahya b. Saeed al-Ansari narrates it. But from al-Ansari a huge number of people have heard it.
So this narration is a had from Prophet, Umar, Alqama and at-Taimi, but mutawatir from Yahya b. Saeed.

zichan

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2015, 02:08:28 AM »
Because of the holiday, i was not able to continue. But with the permission of the almighty ill finish this work.

Narration #2

 حدثنا علي بن محمد بن علي بن الحسن بن بكير البسطامي قال : حدثني محمد بن يعقوب بن اسحاق قال حدثني أحمد بن مخلد قال حدثني أحمد بن يحيى عن أحمد بن محمد الخوارزمي عن أبي الحفص الأعمش عن عاصم ابن عمرو عن جابر بن عبد الله قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و اله وسلم : (( علي خير البشر من شك فيه فقد كفر


Ali bin Muhammad Al-Bastami - Muhammad bin Yaqub bin Ishaq - Ahmad bin Mukhallad - Ahmad bin Yahya Al-Khawarizmy - Abi Al-Hafs Al-Amash - Aasim ibn Amro - Jabir bin Abdilllah said: Rasullallah (Sallallahu alaihi wa Sallam) said: Ali is the best of creation,whoever doubts,  then he has disbelieved.

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash is majhool.


Narration #3

حدثنا أبو الفضل محمد بن عبد ال الكوفي رحمه ال ، قال حدثني محمد بن جرير الطبري قال حدثني أبو كريب محمد بن علء عن وكيع عن العمش عن عطية قال : دخلنا على جابر بن عبد الله  و قد سقط حاجباه على عينيه ، فقلنا : أخبرنا عن هذا الرجل علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلم ؟ فرفع حاجبيه بيده و قال : (( ذاك خير البشر

Abu Al-Fadhl - Muhammad bin Jarir At-Tabari - Abu Kuraib - Wakii - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: [...] I went to Jabir bin Abdullah [..] and said: Tell me about this man Ali bin Talib. [...] He said: This (men) is the best of creation.

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool

Note: Same Narration and Chain as mentioned in Fadhail As-Sahaba by Imam Ahmad - refer Narration #6.9, Post #16


zichan

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2015, 04:34:53 PM »
Addition to Narration #3: Abu Kuraib or Abu Kareeb should be majhool as well.


Narration #4

حدثنا الشريف أبو محمد القاسم بن علي العلوي رحمه ال قال : حدثني محمد بن عمرو الحافظ ، قال حدثني الحسن بن إبراهيم قال حدثني القاسم بن الخليفة عن أبي يحيى التميمي ، العمش ، عن عطية قال : قلنا لجابر : ما كان علي عليه السلم فيكم ؟ فرفع حاجبيه ثم قال : (( هاه ، كان خير البشر


Al-Shareef Abu Muhammad Al-Alawi - Muhammad bin Amro - Al-Hassan bin Ibrahim - Al-Qasim bin Al-Khalifah - Yahya At-Tamimi - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: We said to Jabir: What was Ali among you? [...] He said: He was the best of creation.

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash and Attiyah are both majhool.


Narration #5

 عن أبي معاوية عن العمش عن عطية قال  قلت لجابر بن عبد الله : اي رجل كان علي عليه السلم فيكم ؟ فرفع ( رأسه و قال :  علي عليه السلم خير البشر ، وما شك فيه إل منافق

Abi Muawiyah - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: We said to Jabir: What kind of man is Ali among you? [...] He said: He was the best of creation, no one except hypocrite would be in doubt about that.

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash and Attiyah are both majhool.


Narration #6

قال أبو كريب : رفع بصره إلى و قال : (( أوليس ذاك خير البشر و ماشك فيه إل منافق ؟

Abu Kareeb or Abu Kuraib said[...]: Is he (Ali) not the best of creation and no one except hypocrite would be in doubt about that ?

grading: weak

1) Abu Kareeb or Abu Kuraib, majhool.
2) No Isnad (chain)


Narration #7

قال عبد الله  بن يزيد و حدثني محمد بن طريف عن وكيع عن العمش عن عطية عن جابر قال : خير الناس أو قال خير البشر و ما شك فيه إل منافق


Abdullah bin Yazid and Muhammad bin Tareef - Wakii - Al-Amash - Attiyyah - Jabir said: He was the best of men or best of mankind and no one except hypocrite would be in doubt about that

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash and Attiyah are both majhool.


Ebn Hussein

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2015, 04:23:57 AM »
Ironically it is the Shia who claim they will smash any hadith against the wall if it is against the Qur'an, yet due to their exaggeration with Ali Ibn Abi Talib (RA) they always do the opposite (ignore the Qur'an and logic in favour of fabrications and weak hadith), they don't even realise that this hadith is completely against the foundations of Islam, no Sahih hadith is even needed to prove that, but there actually is a Sahih hadtih:

"I will be the leader (or master) of the children of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted.”


[Source: Sahih Muslim 2278 .Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Imam Muslim]

Arabic:

أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَنَا سَيِّدُ وَلَدِ آدَمَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَأَوَّلُ مَنْ يَنْشَقُّ عَنْهُ الْقَبْرُ وَأَوَّلُ شَافِعٍ وَأَوَّلُ مُشَفَّعٍ

2278 صحيح مسلم كِتَاب الْفَضَائِلِ بَاب تَفْضِيلِ نَبِيِّنَا صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ عَلَى جَمِيعِ الْخَلَائِقِ


الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Optimus Prime

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2015, 12:17:12 PM »
Jazak'Allah for this.

Bolani Muslim

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2015, 07:29:59 PM »
It's 5655 on here:  Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I shall be pre-eminent amongst the descendants of Adam on the Day of Resurrection and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted (by Allah). 
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=30&translator=2&start=0&number=0

zichan

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2015, 01:50:31 PM »
Narration #8

لفظ مالك بن إسماعيل و قال : حدثنا عبد الله  بجلي عن أبي كريب عن ابن نمير عن العمش عن عطية قال : دخلنا على جابر بعد أن كبر ووقع حاجباه على عينيه ، فقلنا له : ما كنتم تعدون عليا فيكم ؟ قال : (( يا غلم ارفع ، ذاك خير البشر – أو من خير البشر


Malik bin Ismail - Abdullah Al-Bajli - Abu Kareeb or Abu Kuraib - Ibn Numair - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: We went to Jabir [...] and asked: What was Ali among you? [...] He said: [...] He was the best of creation or among the best of creation

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool.
3) Abu Kuraib or Abu Kareeb should be majhool as well. 

Note: The narration says, he is the best of creation or one of the best creation. The last one is true, because Ali (ra)was without any doubt one of the best creation!

No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash and Attiyah are both majhool and Abu Kuraib or Abu Kareeb should be majhool aswell.



Narration #9

حدثنا محمد بن محمد الكفي  قال حدثني أحمد بن محمد بن سعيد قال : حدثني محمد بن الحسن القطواني قال حدثني إبراهيم بن هراسة عن سويد عن العمش عن عطية قال سئل جابر بن عبد الله  عن علي عليه السلم ؟ فقال : (( ذاك خير الناس


Muhammad bin Muhammad Al-Kufi - Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Said - Muhammad bin Al-Hassan Al-Qatawani - Ibrahim bin Harasah - Suwaid - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: I asked Jabir bin Abdullah about Ali He said: He was the best of people.

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash and Attiyah are both majhool.


Narration #10

حدثنا علي بن محمد بن علي القمي قال حدثني أحمد بن محمد بن سعيد قال حدثني محمد بن الحسن الكندي عن اسماعيل بن موسى عن شريك عن الأعمش عن عطية عن جابر بن الله : أنه سئل عن علي عليه السلام ؟ فقال : (( ذلك خير البشر ))

Muhammad bin Muhammad Al-Kufi - Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Said - Muhammad bin Al-Hassan Al-Qatawani - Ibrahim bin Harasah - Suwaid - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: I asked Jabir bin Abdullah about Ali He said: He was the best of people.

grading: weak

1) Shareek, majhool.
2) Al-Amash, majhool.
3) Attiyyah, majhool.

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Shareek, Al-Amash and Attiyah are majhool.


Narration #11


حدثنا محمد بن عبد الله الكوفي قال حدثني محمد بن جرير قال حدثني محمد بن اسماعيل عن الحماني عن شريك عن الأعمش عن عطية العوفي عن جابر بن عبد الله قال : (( ذاك خير البشر يعني علياً عليه السلام ))

Muhammad bin Muhammad Al-Kufi - Muhammad bin Jarir - Muhammad bin Ismail - Al-Hamaani - Shareek - Al-Amash - Attiyyah - Jabir said: He was the best of creation, yani Ali (as).

grading: weak

1) Shareek, majhool.
2) Al-Amash, majhool.
3) Attiyyah, majhool.

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Shareek, Al-Amash and Attiyah are majhool.



to be continued...


zichan

Re: Refutation: Ali best of men
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2015, 06:57:51 PM »
Narration #12

وبإسناده عن محمد بن اسماعيل عن اسماعيل بن أبان الوراق عن مندل عن الأعمش عن عطية العوفي قال : سألت جابراً بعد ما كبر وسقط حاجباه على عينيه قلت : أي رجل تعدون علياً عليه السلام فيكم ؟ فرفع رأسه إلي وقال : ذاك خير البشر

Muhammad bin Ismail - Ismail bin Aban Al-Warraq - Mundil - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: We asked Jabir[...]:  What kind of man is Ali among you?  [...] He said: He was the best of creation.
 
grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool.


Note: Same Narration and Chain till Amash as mentioned in Nawader Al-Athar - refer Narration #5, Post #33
No need to check rest of the sanad because Al-Amash and Attiyah are both majhool.



Narration #13

حدثنا محمد بن إسماعيل عن عبيد الله بن موسى عن فطر بن خليفة ( قطر بن حذيفة في نسخه ) عن عطية العوفي قال سألت جابر بن عبد الله عن علي عليه السلام ؟ فقال : (( ذاك خير البشر


Muhammad bin Ismail - Ubaydullah bin Musa - Futr bin Khalifah (in another print 'Futr bin Hudhaifah') - Attiyyah  Al-Awfi said: I asked Jabir bin Abdullah about Ali (as). He said: He was the best of people.

grading: weak

1) Attiyyah, majhool.

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Attiyah is majhool (unknown).


Narration #14

حدثنا علي بن محمد بن علي بن الحسن البسطامي الهروي ، قال حدثنا محمد بن يعقوب بن اسحاق الهروي قال حدثني الحسن بن علي ابن عفان عن ابن نمير عن الأعمش عن عطية قال : دخلنا على جابر بن عبد الله بعد ما كبر و احمر ووقع حاجباه على عينيه ، فقلنا له : ما كنتم تعدون علياً عليه السلام فيكم ؟ : قال (( يا غلام ارفع ، ذلك خير البشر

Ali bin Muhammad bin Ali bin Al-Hassan Al-Bastami  - Muhammad bin Yaqub bin Ishaq - Al-Hassan bin Ali bin Affan - Ibn Numair - Al-Amash - Attiyyah said: We went to Jabir [...] and asked: What was Ali among you? [...] He said: [...] He was the best of creation.

grading: weak

1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool.

Note: A little bit different wording, but similar Narration and Chain till Al-Amash as mentioned in Nawader Al-Athar - refer "Narration #3, Post #32" , "Narration #4, Post #33" and "Narration #5, Post #33" and "Narration #12, Post #38" and same narration and chain till Ibn Numair as mentioned in Nawader Al-Athar - refer "Narration #8, Post #37"

No need to check rest of the sanad (chain) because Al-Amash and Attiyah are majhool.



Narration #15


حدثنا علي بن الحسن بن بكر قال حدثني محمد بن يعقوب بن اسحاق الهروي قال حدثني الحسن بن الفضل قال حدثني عبد العزيز بن الخطاب عن ابن مسعود و سعد عن الأعمش عن عطية عن جابر بن عبد الله قال : قيل له : كيف كانت منزلة علي عليه السلام فيكم ؟ قال : (( ذاك خير البشر

Ali bin al-Hassan bin Bakr - Muhammad bin Yaqub bin Ishaq - Al-Hassan bin
Al-Fadhl - Abdul-’Aziz bin al-Khattab - Ibn Masud and  Sad - Al-Amash - Attiyyah - Jabir said: It was said to him: What was the position of Ali among you ? He said: He was the best of creation.

grading: weak

first way:

1) Abdul Aziz bin Al-Khattab, majhool. (refer: Mustadrakat Ilm Al-Hadith, vol. 4, pg.440 by Shahroodi)

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because Abdul Aziz bin Al-Khattab is majhool.

second way:
 
1) Al-Amash, majhool.
2) Attiyyah, majhool.

Note: No need to check rest of the sanad because , Al-Amash and Attiyah are majhool.


to be continued...

 

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