TwelverShia.net Forum

Saqifa - ATT: Iceman

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2017, 02:08:09 PM »
Others added their support, and Abu Bakr was made the first caliph. This choice was disputed by some of Muhammad's companions, who believed that Ali (Ali ibn Abi Talib), the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, had already been designated as his successor by the Prophet.

No, prophet saw never designated a successor so your theory falls flat on the face.

Everyone agreed with Abu Bakr ra's leadership through shura heck even Ali ra pledged allegiance TWICE subhanallah.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2017, 02:15:08 PM »
Which of you, then, will help me in this, and be my brother, mine executor and my successor amongst you?’ All remained silent, except for the youthful ʿAlī who spoke up: ‘O Prophet of God, I will be thy helper in this.’ The Prophet then placed his hand on ʿAlī’s neck and said, ‘This is my brother, mine executor and my successor amongst you. Hearken unto him and obey him.’

(Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, tr. A Guilaume, The Life of Muhammad, 118)

Oh my what desperate measures you will employ to get your divine appointment theory some credibility oh my oh my oh my......tut tut, you should really learn before barging in here thinking you have the answers 😂😂😂😂

1) your using a biography as evidence lol

2) ibn ishaq is controversial

3) In Egypt he was regarded as an authority because Yazid afterwards related Hadiths to Ibn Ishaq's authority.

Oh boy you don't follow yazid do you??

Can you feel that sinking feeling?

👍👍👍

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2017, 02:20:57 PM »
Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

8) He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ?????/?????

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?

Yes your laughing now that your 10 points have COLLAPSED lol

It's common knowledge within ahlusunna it's EASILY available online, it's not my fault if you havent done your homework or.......copy paste work😜👍

My ten points didn't collapse, you just brushed them aside. It's never your fault. The other side is always to blame. Common knowledge within Ahlesunah, pull the other one.

LOL you copy pasted from alislam.org thinking no sunni could answer lol, you've already made a fool of yourself and the 10 stupid questions, in all honesty a sunni kid could answer them and still have SHURA in his head and not no divine imamah concept.

Shows how GENUINE you are when you have to copy paste questions and then copy paste the same answer.

Your religion is in free fall..........THERE IS NO SUCH DIVINE APPOINTMENT just your assumptions and theories, just look at link and look at your source alislam.org😂😂👍👍

Copy paste, link, this, that and the other,  get over it. If something or material is put forward to you at least have the decency and manners to refute it properly through discussion rather than jumping up and down and coming out with a few words just feel confident and comfortable that at least I said something.

Once again what ever the Prophet (s) gave we took. The book is divine appointment and so are those who have been put third in line in authority after the Messenger (s) by Allah.

Once again the Prophet (s) left two weighty things behind for us to hold on to and to keep together. First the book which is divinely appointed by Allah and the second the progeny who are also divinely appointed by Allah.

If you want to continue to base your belief/faith on hasty and coincidental historical incidents and events that took place and want to use them as foundation and pillars of your belief/faith then by all means continue.

But at least let me tell you this that your intentional and deliberate false and wrong campaign against us which is full of hatred and envy isn't working, didn't work and never will.

I know you have to continue with such a stance otherwise your belif/faith will instantly and automatically collapse. This is your only means of survival. People aren't daft or stupid.Let each and every individual judge for themselves and keep your judgement and verdict to yourself.




LOL your the one using yazids authority ibn ishaq as proof

That alone should sink your ship, if you had the brains to think with

Good luck in your fairytale superhuman atom moving imams they're only good for dreams and bed time stories while the Sahaba ra lived and ruled spread Islam ........as HISTORY shows, the leaders from quraish (Hadith) ruled and were SUCCESSFULL.

Subhanallah

Link

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2017, 02:44:22 PM »
If you define success through Satanic delusion and falsehood, then maybe yes according to your definition of success, then they were.

There are twelve verses using the word "successful", why don't you look them up.

There are verses defining Leadership, both the sense of what it means to be taken as a leader falsely (Taghut) by false eyes (the Jibt/sorcery) and what is the way to God, the road to God, the leaders to God who lead you to him, and who can navigate society from the darkness to the light.

You are saying Rasool meant by success other than what Quran said in those twelve verses? If you mean success is by those verses, prove that your Leaders who were successful in that sense, that they brought people from darkness to the light and guided them and manifested the truth.

If you are saying leaders are different than the type that Quran speaks in favor of, then bring your proof. What context shows this?

Otherwise just asserting your desire on hadiths and interpreting them and Quran by conjecture and desires, doesn't lead to truth.

Calm yourself down, fight your nafs, and begin to really have a dialogue:

1. What is the Taghut and how does the Jibt relate to it? Explain it through Quran, reasoning, and Sunnah.

2. What is true leadership and authority in light of that than?

3. How to recognize true leaders according to Quran?

4. What proofs they are provided?

5. Who were the leaders of humanity in the past? Who were the leaders in Bani-Israel?

Please think. Ma'asalma.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2017, 09:17:08 PM »
Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

8) He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ?????/?????

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?

Yes your laughing now that your 10 points have COLLAPSED lol

It's common knowledge within ahlusunna it's EASILY available online, it's not my fault if you havent done your homework or.......copy paste work😜👍

My ten points didn't collapse, you just brushed them aside. It's never your fault. The other side is always to blame. Common knowledge within Ahlesunah, pull the other one.

LOL you copy pasted from alislam.org thinking no sunni could answer lol, you've already made a fool of yourself and the 10 stupid questions, in all honesty a sunni kid could answer them and still have SHURA in his head and not no divine imamah concept.

Shows how GENUINE you are when you have to copy paste questions and then copy paste the same answer.

Your religion is in free fall..........THERE IS NO SUCH DIVINE APPOINTMENT just your assumptions and theories, just look at link and look at your source alislam.org😂😂👍👍

Copy paste, link, this, that and the other,  get over it. If something or material is put forward to you at least have the decency and manners to refute it properly through discussion rather than jumping up and down and coming out with a few words just feel confident and comfortable that at least I said something.

Once again what ever the Prophet (s) gave we took. The book is divine appointment and so are those who have been put third in line in authority after the Messenger (s) by Allah.

Once again the Prophet (s) left two weighty things behind for us to hold on to and to keep together. First the book which is divinely appointed by Allah and the second the progeny who are also divinely appointed by Allah.

If you want to continue to base your belief/faith on hasty and coincidental historical incidents and events that took place and want to use them as foundation and pillars of your belief/faith then by all means continue.

But at least let me tell you this that your intentional and deliberate false and wrong campaign against us which is full of hatred and envy isn't working, didn't work and never will.

I know you have to continue with such a stance otherwise your belif/faith will instantly and automatically collapse. This is your only means of survival. People aren't daft or stupid.Let each and every individual judge for themselves and keep your judgement and verdict to yourself.




LOL your the one using yazids authority ibn ishaq as proof

That alone should sink your ship, if you had the brains to think with

Good luck in your fairytale superhuman atom moving imams they're only good for dreams and bed time stories while the Sahaba ra lived and ruled spread Islam ........as HISTORY shows, the leaders from quraish (Hadith) ruled and were SUCCESSFULL.

Subhanallah

LOL! This is exactly what your problem is and has been that you don't look at what is or has been said but you look at who is saying or has said it. You clearly are involved in personality worship.

The Sahaba, yes of course they had major differences between them which led to bloodshed and murder. They had hatred for one another and cursed each other. Moawiya made it compulsory in Jumma Khutba to curse Ali and show hatred towards him.Oh there's plenty in history what the Sahaba got up to.

I asked you to explain to me the verse of purification (Tat'heer) and what it means in your own words and according to your belief but you are either too hesitant or afraid to engage in a positive and constructive discussion. You come out with a child like manner and with kindergarten talk.

Consultation (shura), this also brought about Yazeed. He was the sixth Khalifa of the Muslims and the ruler of the Muslim empire. Vast majority accepted him one way or the other but they did accept him. So did many noble companions and their offspring and high ranking personalities.

This is what Saqifa brought about and what you believe in. Who ever and how ever gets into power and gains authority you accept him. If they turn out good then wow. But if they turn out bad then lets not blame the system that we believe in but the person.

We believe in those who Allah removed rijs from and whom Allah purified. And why did Allah do that? What was the need? So they could govern us and Qoran and Sunah were left in the hands and caretakers who were divine and purified. And those are the ones we believe in and take Shariyath from. You continue with what ever you have. What we have is better than yours and makes sense and is logical.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2017, 10:29:28 PM »
Shura (Arabic: شورى‎‎ shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation". The Quran and the Prophet Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.

All those who would be or were effected by the decision were they in Saqifa and did all parties effected take part in this gathering and decision making? The answer is NO! Then what kind of consultation was this?

Did the Shaikhayn take part on behalf of others? Were the Shaikhayn given authority to act on behalf of others or who gave them the authority to decide on behalf of others?

Abu Muhammad

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2017, 12:47:58 AM »
Shura (Arabic: شورى‎‎ shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation". The Quran and the Prophet Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.

All those who would be or were effected by the decision were they in Saqifa and did all parties effected take part in this gathering and decision making? The answer is NO! Then what kind of consultation was this?

Did the Shaikhayn take part on behalf of others? Were the Shaikhayn given authority to act on behalf of others or who gave them the authority to decide on behalf of others?

@iceman

Who were the one who actually triggered the issue of the selection of caliph after the death of Rasulullah (saw)? Abu Bakr & Umar or a group of Ansar?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2017, 12:54:18 AM »
Shura (Arabic: شورى‎‎ shūrā) is an Arabic word for "consultation". The Quran and the Prophet Muhammad encourage Muslims to decide their affairs in consultation with those who will be affected by that decision.





Why would the Quran & the prophet (saw) encourage the muslims to decide their affairs in consultation if there is an infallible Imam as the guide?

« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 12:55:56 AM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Link

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2017, 01:40:00 AM »
Counseling doesn't mean deciding from their own opinion.  It means they come together to understand Quran and Sunnah or the words of Ahlulbayt.

It means they discuss with one another the religion, which was done during Rasool time to. That they help one another reflect over Quran and Sunnah.

Ahlulbayt teach humanity, but they need humans to come together and discuss their narrations, and it was also obligatory to refer all ahadith to the Quran.  If something contradicts Quran, they would have to counsel one another about it.

The Prophet would counsel them regarding his decisions so they understand why he is doing what he is doing as other verses show that if he would obey them in many things, destruction would of have befell the believers.

The verse could of said "And they decide through counsel to one another", but the religion of God is not about deciding, it's about counseling one another about God's counsel as well his Messenger's counsel to humanity.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2017, 05:14:54 AM »
Why would the Ansaar want a leader of their own? Why didn't everybody gather together and choose a leader for the Ummah? The Ansaar knew about the stance of the Muhajir that they would not accept Ali nor would they let him succeed.The Prophet (s) was dying and the signs and disobedience towards him was present and clear. There is a lot to support this. If one doesn't want to accept then that is fine. Like I said before the decision in Saqifa wasn't conducted properly and fairly.
re-read my previous reply. I dont need to repeat myself.

The previous leader didn't tell the Ummah about A, B or C? Are you serious? You are clearly accusing the previous leader of irresponsibility and carelessness. Khamenei was selected a week before Khomeini was buried.
You dimwit, they suddenly gathered in a state of shock & mourning as you said. Well, your demigod, Khomeini died then his followers suddenly gathered and selected Khamenei. Where's your objection you shiite? Your double standard is cringeworthy.

What, did a separate faction or tribe gather to choose their own and the others suddenly rushed to stop them that, "what the hell do you think you are doing?."
You were questioning why sahaba have a sudden need to gathering to elect leader when Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam havent even been buried. Unfortunately, shiite like you just realised same thing happen with how Khamenei rose to his throne. Now youre changing your tune. Next time, do some research so you dont look so stupid
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 05:18:16 AM by Hadrami »

Farid

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2017, 10:43:17 AM »
Omg... this thread just started and this many posts already?!




zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2017, 12:44:54 PM »
Counseling doesn't mean deciding from their own opinion.  It means they come together to understand Quran and Sunnah or the words of Ahlulbayt.

It means they discuss with one another the religion, which was done during Rasool time to. That they help one another reflect over Quran and Sunnah.

Ahlulbayt teach humanity, but they need humans to come together and discuss their narrations, and it was also obligatory to refer all ahadith to the Quran.  If something contradicts Quran, they would have to counsel one another about it.

The Prophet would counsel them regarding his decisions so they understand why he is doing what he is doing as other verses show that if he would obey them in many things, destruction would of have befell the believers.

The verse could of said "And they decide through counsel to one another", but the religion of God is not about deciding, it's about counseling one another about God's counsel as well his Messenger's counsel to humanity.

Ah is this another one of your "hadith needed to be written down" despite their being a living infallible Imam as the guide & another 11 to follow him.

The truth is even shia acknowledge consulatation did happen, hadiths were written down etc in the times of the Imams, obviously the ummah never recognised them as being the supreme infallible guide of the age.

Shia have to try & reconcile history with their fantasy ideology with distasterous results.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2017, 05:51:40 PM »
Why would the Ansaar want a leader of their own? Why didn't everybody gather together and choose a leader for the Ummah? The Ansaar knew about the stance of the Muhajir that they would not accept Ali nor would they let him succeed.The Prophet (s) was dying and the signs and disobedience towards him was present and clear. There is a lot to support this. If one doesn't want to accept then that is fine. Like I said before the decision in Saqifa wasn't conducted properly and fairly.
re-read my previous reply. I dont need to repeat myself.

The previous leader didn't tell the Ummah about A, B or C? Are you serious? You are clearly accusing the previous leader of irresponsibility and carelessness. Khamenei was selected a week before Khomeini was buried.
You dimwit, they suddenly gathered in a state of shock & mourning as you said. Well, your demigod, Khomeini died then his followers suddenly gathered and selected Khamenei. Where's your objection you shiite? Your double standard is cringeworthy.

What, did a separate faction or tribe gather to choose their own and the others suddenly rushed to stop them that, "what the hell do you think you are doing?."
You were questioning why sahaba have a sudden need to gathering to elect leader when Prophet sallalahu alayhi wasallam havent even been buried. Unfortunately, shiite like you just realised same thing happen with how Khamenei rose to his throne. Now youre changing your tune. Next time, do some research so you dont look so stupid

LOL! What does DIMWIT mean and is it part of your vocabulary or bringing up?

Link

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2017, 06:51:25 PM »
Ah is this another one of your "hadith needed to be written down" despite their being a living infallible Imam as the guide & another 11 to follow him.

The truth is even shia acknowledge consulatation did happen, hadiths were written down etc in the times of the Imams, obviously the ummah never recognised them as being the supreme infallible guide of the age.

Shia have to try & reconcile history with their fantasy ideology with distasterous results.

Salam

Shura between themselves was a part of the life of the companions during the time of Mohammad as well. 

It's foremost about understanding the counsel of the Prophet towards them, and making sure everyone on point. During Imam times, it's not only about understanding what Imams teach, but discerning what is attributed to them is true.

The Quran says "therefore if you dispute in a thing refer it to God and the Messenger", everyone says yes we refer to Quran and Sunnah, we still disputing and differring. The command is not "attempt by whatever you means you want to God and the Messenger", it actually means we ought to make sure to refer our dispute to God and the Messenger and make Rasool an arbitrator by which our disputes are settled.

The collections from Rasool, from Ali, etc, they all have to be on point.

The Quran no one just understands it on first go, it needs to be continuously discussed by society. The ahadith of Imams are the primary way to understand it, but a lot can be attributed to Imams from Iblis forces.

So without believers counseling one another,  they will not gain the insights they have, not fix the errors they are on, and will not refer things back to Quran and Sunnah.

And reflecting and taking counsel from one another is a priority.  We all been put here for a purpose.

But the fact is we go to Quran and Sunnah not to settle our disputes, but to argue for an idol among idols and jusity our delusions.

We are far removed from sincerity to God and the Messenger,  we use Leaders that God appointed as a way to obey leaders God has not appointed even the latter leaders teach things contradictory to God's book.

When people ask, what are we suppose to do if not Taqleed, this verse shows, it shows our affair should be counsel to one another.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #94 on: October 02, 2017, 09:13:52 AM »
Ice man

Personality worship??? The personalities whom I follow........do they move atoms?? Do they help when I call their names??
 "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"
Do I alter Quran meanings to accommodate alien ideas about superimams?? Do I hang pictures of any personality of Sahaba ra????

You really need to look at yourself and your below average arguments, honestly it's kindergarten stuff.

Again......assumptions and lies......assumptions and lies again and again and again, please TRY to bring forth real evidences and not just some Tyre head made up fairytales so as he can get his khums paid.

you have nothing on the Sahaba ra just stories they never hated or killed each other especially the first khulafa ra, as for Ameer muawiya ra lol honestly you have NOTHING, He muawiya ra NEVER cursed Ali ra, it's just the same way your tyre heads teach you to twist AUTHORITY in Quran to DIVINE AUTHORITY, and now look at how stupid you really look cos there is no DIVINITY to appointing the superimams.......like I said you're stuck in a rut and your sinking so now you will use unauthentic reports as proof for your next Shiite move......discredit the Sahaba ra, talk about desperate measures lol

My friend even a kindergarten kid will explain to you the same as an adult that........there is NO DIVINE APPOINTMENT........unless you make it up in your head, your stuck, how hard can it be to point out DIVINE APPOINTMENT in Quran, it's an EASY book to read and understand as a Muslim but why oh why do you have to into semantics just to explain that verse?? You have NOTHING!

What a CRANK no honestly I mean it, your age shows in this paragraph bout yazeed being selected by shura???.........go back and READ genuine history and don't listen to pulpit monkey talk honestly it's good advice, nothing else to add here coz it's your crazy mad assumptions and hate again.

Again assumptions theories ANYTHING to attack from ANY angle even if it means lies lol
It doesn't matter what you think it's based on hearsay and lies.......and you still believe it, lol.

Ours does make sense here I will break it down for a childish mind like yourself coz you don't seem to wanna open your eyes to the truth

Sahaba ra were successful in implementing Islam and spreading it throughout the world they are WELL RENOWNED to Muslims as well as non Muslims the history is there ( the 12 leaders Hadith), we Muslims don't need to twist quranic meanings or use unauthentic information to come to our conclusions about Sahaba ra why because Allah swt is well pleased with them (Quran) verse 9/100 (CLEAR) as well as many Hadith from Prophet saw all clear, they adopted shura from following Prophet saw as well as the noble Quran, it was the prophetic way for Prophet saw NEVER APPOINTED nor did Allah swt.

As for imams ra they never ruled but a few and we're never successful (goes against the 12 leader Hadith coz they weren't successful as the Hadith states), now to add weight to your DIVINE APPOINTMENT theory you are TWISTING "authority" in Quran to mean DIVINE adding meanings to words in Quran to adopt the of Shiite way of thinking that imams are divine, here is the ayah and the readers can see and find the divinity of imams there..............
........"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Without semantics anyone???

Conclusion

Shura = mentioned in Quran implemented and used by Prophet saw and His followers ra

Divine imam/appointment = Nothing in Quran and sunnah and was never heard of unless you read unauthentic history books

You really need to move on, Shiite arguments for divinity imams is old and you have nothing but heresay, look at your posts not even 1 where you can explain a verse as it says what it says unless you go in deep explanation and semantics.

I caught you using other websites questions to answer here as if we couldn't or you would catch us out......very kiddish......and now LOOK you are stuck trying to defend that same alien concept you tried to catch us out on them stupid 10 questions.........we Muslims see you coming 😊


Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #95 on: October 02, 2017, 09:44:14 AM »
If you define success through Satanic delusion and falsehood, then maybe yes according to your definition of success, then they were.

There are twelve verses using the word "successful", why don't you look them up.

There are verses defining Leadership, both the sense of what it means to be taken as a leader falsely (Taghut) by false eyes (the Jibt/sorcery) and what is the way to God, the road to God, the leaders to God who lead you to him, and who can navigate society from the darkness to the light.

You are saying Rasool meant by success other than what Quran said in those twelve verses? If you mean success is by those verses, prove that your Leaders who were successful in that sense, that they brought people from darkness to the light and guided them and manifested the truth.

If you are saying leaders are different than the type that Quran speaks in favor of, then bring your proof. What context shows this?

Otherwise just asserting your desire on hadiths and interpreting them and Quran by conjecture and desires, doesn't lead to truth.

Calm yourself down, fight your nafs, and begin to really have a dialogue:

1. What is the Taghut and how does the Jibt relate to it? Explain it through Quran, reasoning, and Sunnah.

2. What is true leadership and authority in light of that than?

3. How to recognize true leaders according to Quran?

4. What proofs they are provided?

5. Who were the leaders of humanity in the past? Who were the leaders in Bani-Israel?

Please think. Ma'asalma.

Yes THINK without the influence of the devil!!!

Yes they was successful in ISLAM, we have the 12 leader Hadith.......it says for the prophecy to true the leaders had to be successful in their rule.....which if you read GENUINE history and not books from pulpit taghuts maybe you will understand and maybe the devil move on from effecting your brain ........it's called following the TRUTH, good luck.

See the devil twisting your head?? The leaders weren't PROPHETS lol GUIDES yes they did guide the non Muslims and reverted them back to Islam yes they bought the light of Quran and sunnah to the world.......look at the population of Muslims now!!! Thanks to the leadership and rule of the Sahaba ra👍👍

Huh?? Lol it's YOU SHIITES who believe in a different leadership ( of the divine kind), your pal iceman still hasn't found the divinity in leadership, he is twisting quranic ayahs and yet you want me to explain leadership lol

I am calm to the TRUTHFUL and not with the devils like you who keep lying and insulting the followers of prophet saw, that's all.

1) taghut is that devil inside you forcing you into beliefs that are unnatural

2) true meaning is the devil is feeding you lies

3) because of that devil you are now believing in supernatural imams and atom movers

4) devils whispering in your head

5) your leader in the past was iblis hence your the taghut

Your a joke but I tell you what, that devils making a right path for you to follow taghut.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2017, 12:59:55 PM »
Ice man

Personality worship??? The personalities whom I follow........do they move atoms?? Do they help when I call their names??
 "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"
Do I alter Quran meanings to accommodate alien ideas about superimams?? Do I hang pictures of any personality of Sahaba ra????

You really need to look at yourself and your below average arguments, honestly it's kindergarten stuff.

Again......assumptions and lies......assumptions and lies again and again and again, please TRY to bring forth real evidences and not just some Tyre head made up fairytales so as he can get his khums paid.

you have nothing on the Sahaba ra just stories they never hated or killed each other especially the first khulafa ra, as for Ameer muawiya ra lol honestly you have NOTHING, He muawiya ra NEVER cursed Ali ra, it's just the same way your tyre heads teach you to twist AUTHORITY in Quran to DIVINE AUTHORITY, and now look at how stupid you really look cos there is no DIVINITY to appointing the superimams.......like I said you're stuck in a rut and your sinking so now you will use unauthentic reports as proof for your next Shiite move......discredit the Sahaba ra, talk about desperate measures lol

My friend even a kindergarten kid will explain to you the same as an adult that........there is NO DIVINE APPOINTMENT........unless you make it up in your head, your stuck, how hard can it be to point out DIVINE APPOINTMENT in Quran, it's an EASY book to read and understand as a Muslim but why oh why do you have to into semantics just to explain that verse?? You have NOTHING!

What a CRANK no honestly I mean it, your age shows in this paragraph bout yazeed being selected by shura???.........go back and READ genuine history and don't listen to pulpit monkey talk honestly it's good advice, nothing else to add here coz it's your crazy mad assumptions and hate again.

Again assumptions theories ANYTHING to attack from ANY angle even if it means lies lol
It doesn't matter what you think it's based on hearsay and lies.......and you still believe it, lol.

Ours does make sense here I will break it down for a childish mind like yourself coz you don't seem to wanna open your eyes to the truth

Sahaba ra were successful in implementing Islam and spreading it throughout the world they are WELL RENOWNED to Muslims as well as non Muslims the history is there ( the 12 leaders Hadith), we Muslims don't need to twist quranic meanings or use unauthentic information to come to our conclusions about Sahaba ra why because Allah swt is well pleased with them (Quran) verse 9/100 (CLEAR) as well as many Hadith from Prophet saw all clear, they adopted shura from following Prophet saw as well as the noble Quran, it was the prophetic way for Prophet saw NEVER APPOINTED nor did Allah swt.

As for imams ra they never ruled but a few and we're never successful (goes against the 12 leader Hadith coz they weren't successful as the Hadith states), now to add weight to your DIVINE APPOINTMENT theory you are TWISTING "authority" in Quran to mean DIVINE adding meanings to words in Quran to adopt the of Shiite way of thinking that imams are divine, here is the ayah and the readers can see and find the divinity of imams there..............
........"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Without semantics anyone???

Conclusion

Shura = mentioned in Quran implemented and used by Prophet saw and His followers ra

Divine imam/appointment = Nothing in Quran and sunnah and was never heard of unless you read unauthentic history books

You really need to move on, Shiite arguments for divinity imams is old and you have nothing but heresay, look at your posts not even 1 where you can explain a verse as it says what it says unless you go in deep explanation and semantics.

I caught you using other websites questions to answer here as if we couldn't or you would catch us out......very kiddish......and now LOOK you are stuck trying to defend that same alien concept you tried to catch us out on them stupid 10 questions.........we Muslims see you coming 😊

LOL and LOL again. You really don't have a clue about Islamic history, do you. If there is no divine appointment after Muhammad (s) and if he didn't bother to appoint anyone to succeed him then for heaven's sake discuss and debate it in a civilised manner and with an open mind. Don't let off a tantrum about it. Seriously take a look at your posts especially the latest one. You are so childish. Honestly you really are.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2017, 03:25:32 PM »
Ice man

Personality worship??? The personalities whom I follow........do they move atoms?? Do they help when I call their names??
 "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"
Do I alter Quran meanings to accommodate alien ideas about superimams?? Do I hang pictures of any personality of Sahaba ra????

You really need to look at yourself and your below average arguments, honestly it's kindergarten stuff.

Again......assumptions and lies......assumptions and lies again and again and again, please TRY to bring forth real evidences and not just some Tyre head made up fairytales so as he can get his khums paid.

you have nothing on the Sahaba ra just stories they never hated or killed each other especially the first khulafa ra, as for Ameer muawiya ra lol honestly you have NOTHING, He muawiya ra NEVER cursed Ali ra, it's just the same way your tyre heads teach you to twist AUTHORITY in Quran to DIVINE AUTHORITY, and now look at how stupid you really look cos there is no DIVINITY to appointing the superimams.......like I said you're stuck in a rut and your sinking so now you will use unauthentic reports as proof for your next Shiite move......discredit the Sahaba ra, talk about desperate measures lol

My friend even a kindergarten kid will explain to you the same as an adult that........there is NO DIVINE APPOINTMENT........unless you make it up in your head, your stuck, how hard can it be to point out DIVINE APPOINTMENT in Quran, it's an EASY book to read and understand as a Muslim but why oh why do you have to into semantics just to explain that verse?? You have NOTHING!

What a CRANK no honestly I mean it, your age shows in this paragraph bout yazeed being selected by shura???.........go back and READ genuine history and don't listen to pulpit monkey talk honestly it's good advice, nothing else to add here coz it's your crazy mad assumptions and hate again.

Again assumptions theories ANYTHING to attack from ANY angle even if it means lies lol
It doesn't matter what you think it's based on hearsay and lies.......and you still believe it, lol.

Ours does make sense here I will break it down for a childish mind like yourself coz you don't seem to wanna open your eyes to the truth

Sahaba ra were successful in implementing Islam and spreading it throughout the world they are WELL RENOWNED to Muslims as well as non Muslims the history is there ( the 12 leaders Hadith), we Muslims don't need to twist quranic meanings or use unauthentic information to come to our conclusions about Sahaba ra why because Allah swt is well pleased with them (Quran) verse 9/100 (CLEAR) as well as many Hadith from Prophet saw all clear, they adopted shura from following Prophet saw as well as the noble Quran, it was the prophetic way for Prophet saw NEVER APPOINTED nor did Allah swt.

As for imams ra they never ruled but a few and we're never successful (goes against the 12 leader Hadith coz they weren't successful as the Hadith states), now to add weight to your DIVINE APPOINTMENT theory you are TWISTING "authority" in Quran to mean DIVINE adding meanings to words in Quran to adopt the of Shiite way of thinking that imams are divine, here is the ayah and the readers can see and find the divinity of imams there..............
........"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Without semantics anyone???

Conclusion

Shura = mentioned in Quran implemented and used by Prophet saw and His followers ra

Divine imam/appointment = Nothing in Quran and sunnah and was never heard of unless you read unauthentic history books

You really need to move on, Shiite arguments for divinity imams is old and you have nothing but heresay, look at your posts not even 1 where you can explain a verse as it says what it says unless you go in deep explanation and semantics.

I caught you using other websites questions to answer here as if we couldn't or you would catch us out......very kiddish......and now LOOK you are stuck trying to defend that same alien concept you tried to catch us out on them stupid 10 questions.........we Muslims see you coming 😊

LOL and LOL again. You really don't have a clue about Islamic history, do you. If there is no divine appointment after Muhammad (s) and if he didn't bother to appoint anyone to succeed him then for heaven's sake discuss and debate it in a civilised manner and with an open mind. Don't let off a tantrum about it. Seriously take a look at your posts especially the latest one. You are so childish. Honestly you really are.


And you do?? Don't crease me up with your stupidity honestly that's the road you are on.

I gave you Quran and sunnah on shura

You gave me zilch on Quran and sunna on divine appointments (apart from your thought of authority means divine authority)

This is why I say your childish and you have nothing on divine imamah I even answered your stupid 10 questions and they really were stupid if you was trying to portray divine appointment through it

My last post was for you kids to understand ......1.6 billion Muslims get it but you and a about 100 mill of you don't and that's not my fault

1400 years and the search hasn't ended.......no divine appointments from Quran or hidden divine beings either and you call us childish for proving you wrong???? 😂

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2017, 03:56:27 PM »
Ice man

Personality worship??? The personalities whom I follow........do they move atoms?? Do they help when I call their names??
 "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"
Do I alter Quran meanings to accommodate alien ideas about superimams?? Do I hang pictures of any personality of Sahaba ra????

You really need to look at yourself and your below average arguments, honestly it's kindergarten stuff.

Again......assumptions and lies......assumptions and lies again and again and again, please TRY to bring forth real evidences and not just some Tyre head made up fairytales so as he can get his khums paid.

you have nothing on the Sahaba ra just stories they never hated or killed each other especially the first khulafa ra, as for Ameer muawiya ra lol honestly you have NOTHING, He muawiya ra NEVER cursed Ali ra, it's just the same way your tyre heads teach you to twist AUTHORITY in Quran to DIVINE AUTHORITY, and now look at how stupid you really look cos there is no DIVINITY to appointing the superimams.......like I said you're stuck in a rut and your sinking so now you will use unauthentic reports as proof for your next Shiite move......discredit the Sahaba ra, talk about desperate measures lol

My friend even a kindergarten kid will explain to you the same as an adult that........there is NO DIVINE APPOINTMENT........unless you make it up in your head, your stuck, how hard can it be to point out DIVINE APPOINTMENT in Quran, it's an EASY book to read and understand as a Muslim but why oh why do you have to into semantics just to explain that verse?? You have NOTHING!

What a CRANK no honestly I mean it, your age shows in this paragraph bout yazeed being selected by shura???.........go back and READ genuine history and don't listen to pulpit monkey talk honestly it's good advice, nothing else to add here coz it's your crazy mad assumptions and hate again.

Again assumptions theories ANYTHING to attack from ANY angle even if it means lies lol
It doesn't matter what you think it's based on hearsay and lies.......and you still believe it, lol.

Ours does make sense here I will break it down for a childish mind like yourself coz you don't seem to wanna open your eyes to the truth

Sahaba ra were successful in implementing Islam and spreading it throughout the world they are WELL RENOWNED to Muslims as well as non Muslims the history is there ( the 12 leaders Hadith), we Muslims don't need to twist quranic meanings or use unauthentic information to come to our conclusions about Sahaba ra why because Allah swt is well pleased with them (Quran) verse 9/100 (CLEAR) as well as many Hadith from Prophet saw all clear, they adopted shura from following Prophet saw as well as the noble Quran, it was the prophetic way for Prophet saw NEVER APPOINTED nor did Allah swt.

As for imams ra they never ruled but a few and we're never successful (goes against the 12 leader Hadith coz they weren't successful as the Hadith states), now to add weight to your DIVINE APPOINTMENT theory you are TWISTING "authority" in Quran to mean DIVINE adding meanings to words in Quran to adopt the of Shiite way of thinking that imams are divine, here is the ayah and the readers can see and find the divinity of imams there..............
........"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Without semantics anyone???

Conclusion

Shura = mentioned in Quran implemented and used by Prophet saw and His followers ra

Divine imam/appointment = Nothing in Quran and sunnah and was never heard of unless you read unauthentic history books

You really need to move on, Shiite arguments for divinity imams is old and you have nothing but heresay, look at your posts not even 1 where you can explain a verse as it says what it says unless you go in deep explanation and semantics.

I caught you using other websites questions to answer here as if we couldn't or you would catch us out......very kiddish......and now LOOK you are stuck trying to defend that same alien concept you tried to catch us out on them stupid 10 questions.........we Muslims see you coming 😊

LOL and LOL again. You really don't have a clue about Islamic history, do you. If there is no divine appointment after Muhammad (s) and if he didn't bother to appoint anyone to succeed him then for heaven's sake discuss and debate it in a civilised manner and with an open mind. Don't let off a tantrum about it. Seriously take a look at your posts especially the latest one. You are so childish. Honestly you really are.


And you do?? Don't crease me up with your stupidity honestly that's the road you are on.

I gave you Quran and sunnah on shura

You gave me zilch on Quran and sunna on divine appointments (apart from your thought of authority means divine authority)

This is why I say your childish and you have nothing on divine imamah I even answered your stupid 10 questions and they really were stupid if you was trying to portray divine appointment through it

My last post was for you kids to understand ......1.6 billion Muslims get it but you and a about 100 mill of you don't and that's not my fault

1400 years and the search hasn't ended.......no divine appointments from Quran or hidden divine beings either and you call us childish for proving you wrong???? 😂

I already asked you about your version of Ayat e Tat'heer and its explanation but nothing from you on that. No intellectual discussion from you. Don't worry about the figures because vast majority are hellbound anyway.

Once again why didn't Abu Bakr follow Qoran and Sunah? He chose his successor. And what about Moawiya and Yazeed the fifth and sixth Khalif of the Muslims, where they brought about through Shura?

If yes then stick to them and if no then there is definitely something wrong with the ridiculous system you believe. Grow up and start discussing, answering and explaining rather than letting off tantrums.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2017, 05:44:01 PM »
lol I was talking with link about his fake saname quraish dua without chains until you butted in with your childish remarks, you had to give a remark didnt you, was that part of discuss and debate?? Very intellectual.

I have answered you they all chose shura to choose next leader please do keep up and I also told you that it's common knowledge within the ummah, its not even an issue hence I didn't see the need to provide refs but if you insist then just read this https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/islamistruth.wordpress.com/2012/08/13/how-did-umar-ibn-al-khattab-%D8%B1%D8%B6%DB%8C-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87-%D8%B9%D9%86%D9%87-became-caliph/amp/

Like I said it's common knowledge nothing special it's just a part of our common understanding in Islam. Just like it's common knowledge yazid is not our imam or leader and he wasn't chosen by shura either, this is why I say read and learn a sunni perspective and not listen to some pulpit monkey..... I've advised you that before.

You want my explanation on ayah tatheer? No problem

There is no inclination or sign or proof of divine leadership in that ayah either,  (that was the theme and that's why I answered the 10 stupid questions) and that is in accordance with the majority Muslims whom you consider hellbound.

Even you cannot prove from ayah tatheer the divine appointment/Imamate concept, idea or notion.


So again you have nothing CLEAR of divine imam appointment or rule from Quran and not even ayah tatheer either itself explains such, it's AMBIGIOUS in the Quran unknown...........and yet you do have shura/consultation as a concept in Quranand sunnah and its implementation was done by Muslims.

There is nothing to discuss if you haven't a base or ground from Allah swt CLEAR or authentic sunnah on divine appointments.

The end

Ps if you do have CLEAR evidences in words from Allah Almighty swt then do post and it will be a start until then I can't be asked to entertain your ideas and assumptions on certain words from Quran which you twist (as above) and relate to an alien added concept of divine imams leadership, I Finish with this ayah perfect to sum up our debate...................
..“It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur’aan). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkaam (commandments), Al-Faraa’id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudood (laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allaah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord.” And none receive admonition except men of understanding”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:7]

Until you find the ahkaam verses on divine leadership after Nabi Muhammad saw's prophethood we can proceed...........

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
1184 Views
Last post May 02, 2017, 09:46:47 PM
by Farid
169 Replies
13767 Views
Last post December 30, 2019, 04:09:09 PM
by muslim720
21 Replies
2376 Views
Last post December 24, 2019, 06:50:11 PM
by iceman
34 Replies
3081 Views
Last post July 21, 2018, 11:37:40 PM
by iceman