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Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir

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Abu Muhammad

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #80 on: November 16, 2017, 08:39:10 PM »
@Ijtaba

Why Prophet's (saw) lineage were considered superior? If you don't know, try guess it. I would like to hear what do you think.

If you are asking my view (which is shias view) the answer is clear... we agree with the chapter's heading given by the author of Sahih Muslim. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) lineage is superior i.e. pure and flawless as we consider Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) ancestors all up-to Nabi Ismail (a.s) as true believers and from Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) up-to Nabi Adam (a.s) again superior i.e. pure and flawless as they were all true believers.

This argument hold no water. Because why? Because of the father of Ibrahim (as). Who was he? Pure and unfilthy?

"Superior" doesn't mean pure and clean. They were superior because of what they did to their society. Go and study the biography of Prophet's (saw) ancestors. What are the tidbit that we have regarding them from history? It's basically about major contributions and services they did that made them highly respectable in the eye of their society. That's how they attained superiority.

In fact, not much different from the rest of the world. If your ancestors happened to be somebody who contribute greatly to the society, the "superiority" sort of passed down to their descendents. For example, look at "kings". Their forefarthers were the one who defeated their arch-enemies and created kingdoms. And the "superiority" sort of passed down their offspring.

And again, in case of Prophet (saw), those he (saw) mentioned in sahih Muslim, contributed greatly to their tribe (and some of them beyond their own tribe). That's what make them "superior" and not necessarily because of they hold onto the right aqeedah.

iceman

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #81 on: November 16, 2017, 08:53:03 PM »
So were there any believers before Muhammad (s) declared his messenger status or before he was born? Farid, Hani etc? No one has touched this question let alone try to answer it.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #82 on: November 16, 2017, 09:00:18 PM »
So were there any believers before Muhammad (s) declared his messenger status or before he was born? Farid, Hani etc? No one has touched this question let alone try to answer it.

It has been touched before. There were hunafa' before Prophet (saw) declared his prophethood.

Farid

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #83 on: November 16, 2017, 09:31:13 PM »
Quote
As for my agreeing with Farid on Abdul-Muttalib (a.s), Abu Talib (a.s) and Prophet's Parents (a.s) being mushriks is due to the fact that there exists clear ahadiths in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim about them (a.s) being Kafirs and Mushriks.

Excuse me? You agree due to the Sunni hadiths?

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2017, 10:11:16 PM »
This argument hold no water. Because why? Because of the father of Ibrahim (as). Who was he? Pure and unfilthy?

This argument does not hold water according to you but as for me it is completely valid argument.

Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) prayed for forgiveness of his waldiyn (biological parents) together with believers when facing Kaaba. This shows that Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) parents are believers unlike abi Azar who is enemy of GOD.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 10:12:35 PM by Ijtaba »

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2017, 10:24:04 PM »
Excuse me? You agree due to the Sunni hadiths?

I think there is some confusion.

I never believed Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) parents & ancestors were mushriks.

I only agreed with you with respect to there being ahadiths considered authentic by Ahlul Sunnah where it is shown that Prophet's (s.a.w.w) parents (a.s), uncle Abu Talib (a.s) & grandfather Abdul-Muttalib (a.s) being mushrik & going to hell.

Farid

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2017, 12:55:22 AM »
Alright, as long as you are aware that you are the source of the confusion.

Farid

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2017, 01:03:04 AM »
Also, explain this:

Quote
Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2017, 07:51:57 AM »
Also, explain this:

Quote
Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.

Again, we shias believe Abu Talib (a.s) real name was Imran (a.s) & not Abd Manaf

Whereas Abu Lahab I have doubts regarding him being son of Abdul-Muttalib. There is no mention of him of supporting Banu Hashim or going through the sufferings inflicted on Banu Hashim. I will be researching on this character as to know his true identity and his true lineage.

I agreed with you on Abdul-Muttalib having two sons with polytheistic theophoric names because that is what Ahlul Sunnah believes.

My agreeing with you on these things were because I did not have evidence from Ahlul Sunnah sources stating otherwise. That is why as I said previously there are authentic Ahlul Sunnah sources stating beliefs of Prophet's (s.a.w.w) parents, uncle Abu Talib & ancestors. There are also many Ahlul Sunnah sources stating Abu Lahab being son of Abdul-Muttalib. And almost all Ahlul Sunnah give Abu Talib (a.s) real name as Abd Manaf.

However I again repeat, I as a Shia believe Prophet's parents (a.s), uncles Abu Talib (a.s), Hamza (a.s), Abbas (a.s) & ancestors (a.s) upto Nabi Adam (a.s) to be pure believers and superior beings. Also I believe Abu Talib's (a.s) real name to be Imran (a.s). And as for Abu Lahab I need to research on this guy as to know why did he keep himself aloof from Banu Hashim and showed extreme enmity to the Prophet (s.a.w.w).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 07:53:37 AM by Ijtaba »

Hani

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #89 on: November 17, 2017, 08:38:11 AM »
When arguments drop to a certain level I don't see a use in continuing. Each person should take a break, revisit this topic later, contemplate on and revise your stances.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2017, 12:07:45 PM »
When arguments drop to a certain level I don't see a use in continuing. Each person should take a break, revisit this topic later, contemplate on and revise your stances.

I completely agree Brother Hani.

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2017, 12:25:37 PM »
"Superior" doesn't mean pure and clean. They were superior because of what they did to their society. Go and study the biography of Prophet's (saw) ancestors. What are the tidbit that we have regarding them from history? It's basically about major contributions and services they did that made them highly respectable in the eye of their society. That's how they attained superiority.

In fact, not much different from the rest of the world. If your ancestors happened to be somebody who contribute greatly to the society, the "superiority" sort of passed down to their descendents. For example, look at "kings". Their forefarthers were the one who defeated their arch-enemies and created kingdoms. And the "superiority" sort of passed down their offspring.

And again, in case of Prophet (saw), those he (saw) mentioned in sahih Muslim, contributed greatly to their tribe (and some of them beyond their own tribe). That's what make them "superior" and not necessarily because of they hold onto the right aqeedah.

I agree with what you said above only when we take the meaning of the word "superior" or "chosen" from the perspective & point of view of the "society."

The question which I am asking about is what made Pagans/Polytheists highly respectable in the eyes of GOD and HIS Messenger (s.a.w.w) and not what made those (Pagans/Polytheists) highly respectable in the eye of their society.

GOD chooses people based on their good deeds and high-level of faith whereas society chooses people based on what you have described above i.e. accomplishments, major contributions and services, defeating arch-enemies, etc.

I am only asking why did GOD choose Kinana, Quraysh & Banu Hashim (who were polytheists and idol-worshipers according to Ahlul Sunnah) and why did Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) in battlefield say (when most of his own comrades were deserting him): I am Prophet in Truth & I am son of Abdul-Muttalib (who was Idol-worshipper according Ahlul Sunnah).

An accuser could have accused Prophet (s.a.w.w) when he (s.a.w.w) made the above statement: "You (s.a.w.w) are fighting us for Tawheed and yet boasting to be son of Idol-worshiper???"
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 12:27:15 PM by Ijtaba »

Khaled

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2017, 07:21:47 PM »
Whereas Abu Lahab I have doubts regarding him being son of Abdul-Muttalib. There is no mention of him of supporting Banu Hashim or going through the sufferings inflicted on Banu Hashim. I will be researching on this character as to know his true identity and his true lineage.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I ask, and I implore you by your love of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, doesn't it bother you that you know about all the supposed evil and crimes committed by the Sahahba, yet you don't know ANYTHING about Abu Lahab, one of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's staunchest enemies who was mentioned (and CURSED!) by name in the Qur'an?

I am only asking why did GOD choose Kinana, Quraysh & Banu Hashim (who were polytheists and idol-worshipers according to Ahlul Sunnah) and why did Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) in battlefield say (when most of his own comrades were deserting him): I am Prophet in Truth & I am son of Abdul-Muttalib (who was Idol-worshipper according Ahlul Sunnah).

An accuser could have accused Prophet (s.a.w.w) when he (s.a.w.w) made the above statement: "You (s.a.w.w) are fighting us for Tawheed and yet boasting to be son of Idol-worshiper???"

Again, akhi, this is Seerah 101.  This battle had the most new Muslims in it, and when they abandoned him he عليه الصلاة والسلام began to appeal to them, to the religious people he say "أنا النبي لا كذب" and to the newer Muslims who may have been influenced to join the religion because of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's lineage he said "أنا ابن عبد المطلب".  I.e., he was appealing to the new Muslims who may have still had inclinations towards that way of thinking; NOT that he was saying "I'm a monotheist son of a monotheist!"  That totally goes against the Qur'ans claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't used to know what "the Kitab" and "Iman" were (42:52).

I really recommend you spent some time reading a book on the Seerah, you might find yourself surprised, akhi.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 07:24:43 PM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2017, 04:27:15 AM »
Faith of the Ancestors of the Holy Prophet (s).

It is the accepted belief of the Shi'a Ithna-Asheris, the Hanafis, and the Shafi'is that the ancestors of the Holy Prophet from 'Abdullah to Qidar ibn Isma'il, and from there right up to Adam, were true believers. They believed in the One and Only God and faithfully followed the Divine religion of their times. From Qidar to 'Abdullah, all of them followed the Shari'ah of Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.), which was the religion prescribed for them by God.
 
The famous Sunni scholar Imam Jalaluddin as-Suyuti has written nine books on this subject and has proved beyond doubt that all the ancestors of the Holy Prophet were true believers. Shaykh 'Abdul-Haqq Muhaddith Dehlawi has written:

"All the ancestors of the Holy Prophet from Adam up to 'Abdullah were pure and clean from the uncleanness of disbelief and paganism. It was not possible for Allah to put that Holy Light (of the Holy Prophet) into dark and dirty places, i.e. the loin of a pagan man or the womb of a pagan woman. Also, how could it be possible for Allah to punish the ancestors of the Holy Prophet on the Day of judgement and thus humiliate him in the eyes of the world?"
 
The Holy Prophet himself has said: "I was always being transferred from the loins of the clean ones to the wombs of the clean ones."

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2017, 04:35:52 PM »
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I ask, and I implore you by your love of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, doesn't it bother you that you know about all the supposed evil and crimes committed by the Sahahba, yet you don't know ANYTHING about Abu Lahab, one of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's staunchest enemies who was mentioned (and CURSED!) by name in the Qur'an?

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

May I know as to how did you get to know that I know all the supposed evil and crimes committed by Sahabas?

If your opinion was based on my saying that people were deserting Prophet (s.a.w.w) during the battle then, I tell you the truth that it was not my intention to give bad light to Sahabas but what I wanted to show was the dangerous situation in which Prophet (s.a.w.w) was surrounded and yet at that time Prophet (s.a.w.w) said: I am the Prophet in Truth: I am the son of 'Abdul-Muttalib.

And to be honest I really do not know about Abu Lahab besides what I read on Wikipedia. I really want to know why did he not stand for his tribe Banu Hashim and always kept aloof from them. And why did he have so much hatred for his own nephew?

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2017, 05:01:24 PM »
Again, akhi, this is Seerah 101.  This battle had the most new Muslims in it, and when they abandoned him he عليه الصلاة والسلام began to appeal to them, to the religious people he say "أنا النبي لا كذب" and to the newer Muslims who may have been influenced to join the religion because of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's lineage he said "أنا ابن عبد المطلب".  I.e., he was appealing to the new Muslims who may have still had inclinations towards that way of thinking; NOT that he was saying "I'm a monotheist son of a monotheist!"  That totally goes against the Qur'ans claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't used to know what "the Kitab" and "Iman" were (42:52).

Its bit hard to believe that Prophet (s.a.w.w) in battlefield would appeal to new Muslims by reminding them of his grand-father unless if his grand-father was god-like figure to them.

Are you saying that Prophet did not know what the "Iman" was before receiving Prophethood? Wouldn't this mean that Prophet was upon Kufr for 40 years prior to Prophethood as he was faithless/unbeliever (i.e. not Mu'min)?

I really recommend you spent some time reading a book on the Seerah, you might find yourself surprised, akhi.

I am planning to read book on Seerah in near future insha-ALLAH
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:03:59 PM by Ijtaba »

Optimus Prime

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2017, 05:34:53 PM »
He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language?  :P

I swear! It's no wonder why Shias are so oblivious to the major events in the Seerah. Cuz none of your/their ancient scholars recorded Prophetic history, and thus rely on ours! :D

Ijtaba, enlighten all of us what sources you're going to use to research the Seerah?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 05:37:22 PM by Optimus Prime »

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2017, 07:00:48 PM »
He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language?  :P

I thought newly converted Sahabas abandoned their jahaliyah customs and were now acting according to Quran and Sunnah.

You asked me question about protection of Prophet (s.a.w.w) by Abu Talib (a.s). But wasn't Abu Talib (a.s) & Quraysh following jahaliyah customs as they themselves were pagans?

Are we Muslims to follow Abu Talib (a.s) & Quraysh by practicing their jahilyah customs by boasting of our lineages even if our ancestors were upon Kufr?

I swear! It's no wonder why Shias are so oblivious to the major events in the Seerah. Cuz none of your/their ancient scholars recorded Prophetic history, and thus rely on ours! :D

Ijtaba, enlighten all of us what sources you're going to use to research the Seerah?

I believe the differences between Shi'as and Sunnis arose after Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) death so there is no problem if I as a Shi'a use Sunni Seerah books.

Do you have any recommendations of Seerah books which I should read that would give me detailed knowledge about the biography of the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

Optimus Prime

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2017, 07:19:07 PM »
He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language?  :P

I thought newly converted Sahabas abandoned their jahaliyah customs and were now acting according to Quran and Sunnah.

You asked me question about protection of Prophet (s.a.w.w) by Abu Talib (a.s). But wasn't Abu Talib (a.s) & Quraysh following jahaliyah customs as they themselves were pagans?

Are we Muslims to follow Abu Talib (a.s) & Quraysh by practicing their jahilyah customs by boasting of our lineages even if our ancestors were upon Kufr?

I swear! It's no wonder why Shias are so oblivious to the major events in the Seerah. Cuz none of your/their ancient scholars recorded Prophetic history, and thus rely on ours! :D

Ijtaba, enlighten all of us what sources you're going to use to research the Seerah?

I believe the differences between Shi'as and Sunnis arose after Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) death so there is no problem if I as a Shi'a use Sunni Seerah books.

Do you have any recommendations of Seerah books which I should read that would give me detailed knowledge about the biography of the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?

Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah.  The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man!  8)

I suggest speaking to brother Hani, or Farid for book recommendations, but a crucial point for you to swallow. Shias have NO historical source containing the basic details of the Prophet's (SAW) youth let alone the Seerah.

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2017, 05:59:24 PM »
Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah.  The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man!  8)

Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Allah, Most High, has removed from you the pride of the pre-Islamic period and its boasting in ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. You are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust. Let the people cease to boast about their ancestors. They are merely fuel in Jahannam; or they will certainly be of less account with Allah than the beetle which rolls dung with its nose.


Grade   : Hasan (Al-Albani)
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 5116
In-book reference : Book 43, Hadith 344
English translation : Book 42, Hadith 5097


You mean to say that Prophet (s.a.w.w) contradicted himself (i.e. see above hadith) just to call back those people who were fleeing. Prophet (s.a.w.w) resorting to jāhilīyah practice proved to be futile as none of those fleeing came back.

I suggest speaking to brother Hani, or Farid for book recommendations, but a crucial point for you to swallow. Shias have NO historical source containing the basic details of the Prophet's (SAW) youth let alone the Seerah.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Brothers Hani & Farid please recommend me book(s) on Sīrat Rasūl Allāh (s.a.w.w). I would like English & Urdu books because being a Pakistani I cannot understand Arabic. However in near future its my ambition to learn Arabic language insha ALLAH (SWT).

 

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