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TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)

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Ijtaba

Salaam.

I came across one of your article, "The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)?

As I was reading that article many questions came into my mind. Before asking questions I will be quoting from that article so that it becomes easy to answer my questions.
Quote
The Rawafidh hold onto a Hadith in the Sahihayn, in brief this Hadith says that the Prophet (SAWS) is harmed if his daughter Fatima (ra) is harmed, and he (SAWS) is sad if she is sad and so on…
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah’s Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, “Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don’t give permission, and will not give permission unless ‘Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me.”
(Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim)
This Hadith is of the highest of levels of authenticity. And this comes as a result of `Ali’s (ra) second marriage, and it is because the Prophet (SAWS) feared that his daughter may have a Fitnah in her religion or a trial in her religion. Because if the marriage is going to block the wife from doing her job and duty towards her husband than divorce is better, and this is a wide topic.

Why this special privilege given to Prophet's (s) daughter (s.a) only? Every woman on the face of this earth whether believing or non-believing cannot tolerate her husband bringing another woman as his second wife.. and many women even do not tolerate their husband marrying another woman after their death. If Prophet (s) feared for his daughter (s.a) Fitna then every father on the face of this earth fears the same for their daughters when they get into the same situation.

Quote
Other texts:
(Imam Zain-ul-‘Abidin) ‘Ali b. Husain reported that when they came to Medina from Yazid b. Mu’awiya after the martyrdom of Husain b. ‘Ali (Allah be pleased with him) Miswar b. Makhramah met him and said to him: Is there any work for me which you ask me to do? I said to him: No. He again said to me: Would you not give me the sword of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) for I fear that the people may snatch it from you? By Allah, if you give that to me, no one would be able to take it away, so long as there is life in me. Verily ‘Ali b. Abi Talib sent a proposal of marriage to the daughter of Abu Jahl in spite of (the fact that his wife) fatima (had been living in his house). Thereupon I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say while addressing the people on the pulpit. I was adolescing in those days. He said: fatima is a part of me and I fear that she may be put to trial in regard to religion. He then made a mention of his son-in law who had been from the tribe of ‘Abd Shams and praised his behaviour as a son-in-law and said: Whatever he said to me he told the truth and whatever he promised he fulfilled it for me. I am not going to declare forbidden what is lawful and make lawful what is forbidden, but, by Allah, the daughter of Allah’s Messenger and the daughter of the enemy of Allah can never be combined at one place. (Sahih Muslim)

This really seems to me strange narration.

01. Prophet addresses on his pulpit, "Fatima is a part of me and I fear that she may be put to trial in regard to religion."


Every Father fears the same when their daughter gets into similar situation. Can they forbid their son-in-laws from taking second wives?

02. He then made a mention of his son-in law who had been from the tribe of ‘Abd Shams and praised his behaviour as a son-in-law and said: Whatever he said to me he told the truth and whatever he promised he fulfilled it for me. I am not going to declare forbidden what is lawful and make lawful what is forbidden, but, by Allah, the daughter of Allah’s Messenger and the daughter of the enemy of Allah can never be combined at one place.

Prophet (s) contradicting himself. At one hand Prophet (s) is saying that Daughter of Prophet (s) and daughter of enemy of ALLAH can never be combined at one place and on the other he is praising enemy of ALLAH and combining Daughter of Prophet (s) and Enemy of ALLAH at one place???

His son-in-law was Polytheist and Enemy of ALLAH who fought with Prophet (s) in the Battle of Badr and yet Zainab the daughter of Prophet (s) loved her husband. She even gave her necklace for his release and we see Prophet commending his polytheist son-in-law of being truthful and fulfiller of his promise irrespective of his son-in-law fighting against ALLAH and HIS Messenger (s) in Battle of Badr.

Also when Prophet (s) married daughter of Abu Sufyan... wasn't Abu Sufyan at that time Enemy of ALLAH? How did Prophet (s) consider it lawful to marry Daughter of Enemy of ALLAH and yet strongly dislike his son-in-law to marry Daughter of Enemy of ALLAH???

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And in another Lafdh:
‘Ali b. Husain reported that Miswar b. Makhramah informed him that ‘Ali b. Abi Talib sent the proposal of marriage to the daughter of Abu Jahl as he had fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), (as his wife). When fatima heard about it, she came to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: The people say that you never feel angry on account of your daughters and now ‘Ali is going to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl. Makhramah said: Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) rose up and I heard him reciting Tashahhud and say: Now to the point. I gave a daughter of mine (Zainab) to Abu’l-‘As b. Rabi, and he spoke to me and spoke the truth. Verily fatima, the daughter of Muhammad, is a part of me and I do not approve that she may be put to any trial, by Allah the daughter of Allah’s Messenger cannot be combined with the daughter of God’s enemy (as the co-wives) of one person. Thereupon ‘Ali gave up (the idea of his intended) marriage. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zuhri with the same chain of transmitters. (Sahih Muslim).
Through this expression, those of weak minds and intellect try to make Takfeer on the best of this nation after its Prophets, Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (ra).

In Bukhari there is a ahadith in which Prophet (s) tells us what must we look when marrying a woman.

A woman is married for four (things); her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion. Choose (marry) the religious woman so that your home will be in abundance. (Bukhari)

Did Imam Ali (a.s) propose the hand of Abu Jahl's daughter for wealth? or for her family status? or her beauty? It cannot be religion because at that time she was Mushrika. Neither her Family Status because Banu Hashim prided themselves as being superior to all other tribes to such an extent that Prophet (s) did not like Banu Hashim to eat Sadqah of Non-Banu Hashim. Remaining two options are left: Wealth and Beauty. Was Abu Jahl's daughter exceedingly beautiful or wealthy than other Arab girls?

If Imam Ali (a.s) intended to marry Abu Jahl's daughter because of her wealth and her beauty then this would mean that Imam Ali (a.s) was not following the ahadith of Prophet (s) saying Muslims to marry religious women.

By the words of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) and action of Prophet (s) on the words of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) it seems that Reigion is based on Prophet (s) and Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) emotions.

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According to the hadith Hadhrat Fatima says: The people say that you never feel angry on account of your daughters and now ‘Ali is going to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl. 

Prophet (s) feeling angry not on behalf of ALLAH but on behalf of his daughter's (s.a) jealously???

Waiting for your answers.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2016, 04:33:20 PM »
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The Prophet’s daughter Fatima(ra) did not want to be in polygamy, neither were any of her sisters in polygamous marriages, and that was their personal choice which ought to be respected. It is permissible in Islam for a woman to stipulate it as a condition of her marriage that her husband won’t take a second wife while married to her.

Ibn al-Qayyim in Zaad al-Ma’ad said:

By mentioning his(saw) other son-in-law (Abu’l-‘Aas ibn ar-Rabee‘), and praising him for having spoken the truth and fulfilled his promise, He(saw) hinted to ‘Ali(ra) and encouraged him to follow his example. This gives the impression that he had made him a promise that he would not disturb her or hurt her, so he encouraged him to fulfil that promise, as his other son-in-law had fulfilled a promise he made.

Ibn al-Qayyim writes in Zâd al-Ma`âd (5/117-118):
If a man agrees to the condition that he will not marry a second wife, he is obliged by that condition. If the man breaks his promise, the woman will be entitled to terminate the marriage contract.

It is mentioned in the hadîth that what took place is hurting Fâtimah and therefore hurting him. It is known for sure that the Prophet(saw) let `Alî marry his daughter Fâtimah on the condition that he does not hurt her or her father, even if that is not mentioned in the marriage contract. The Prophet(saw) brought up mention of his other son-in-law to incite `Ali to do the same.” The Prophet’s reproach of `Ali was on account of `Alî’s heedlessness of this condition.

Zainab, the eldest of the four daughters of the Prophet, was married to one Abul-‘As ibn er-Rabi’ of Makkah. This man fought against the Prophet in the battle of Badr, and was captured by the Muslims and he later converted to Islam. Yet the Prophet praised him as a good son in law saying :

Whatever he said was the truth, and he promised me and fulfilled his promise’‘. [The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 66. Book of the Virtues of the Companions].

This son-in-law was monogamous.

Then we have Uthman who was married to the Prophet’s daughters Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthoom consecutively:

Here is a list of Uthman’s wives before marrying Ruqayyah:
Umm’Amr bint Jandab
Fatimah bint Al Walid

Both these wives left him when he became Muslim and before he married the Prophet’s daughter Ruqayyah, who was a divorcee. So, the marriage to Ruqayyah was monogamous. When Ruqayyah died, he married the Prophet’s other divorced daughter, Umm Kulthoom. This marriage was also monogamous. Only when Umm Kulthoom died did he become polygamous again.

And as for Ali he had no other wife besides Fatima whilst married to her. Only when she died did he become polygamous. As soon as one of his four wives died, he would marry another. In fact he had a total of eight wives and several concubines, but all only after Fatima passed away.

Ironically, when Umar(who was married man) and Abu Bakr(who was married man) proposed to Fatima, their proposals were turned down, even though Islam says if you find a good man you should marry him. Instead the proposal of the single man Ali was accepted for Fatima.

The narrator of the above hadiths, Al-Miswar bin Makhrama, refused to give his daughter in marriage to a husband of Fatima’s grand-daughter by citing the above Hadiths about Fatima and saying “I fear lest it would displease her”! This was due to his fear of provoking the jealousy of the daughter of RasulAllah.

Regarding Prophet(saw) not allowing Ali(ra) to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl, then it is not true that the Prophet (saw) cited the girl being the daughter of his enemy as a reason for Ali not marrying her. Rather, the Prophet’s(saw) statement was just a statement of fact in that he wanted to express what the outcome would be. This is similar to Anas bin An-Nadir’s statement “By Allah, her tooth will not be broken” (Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 135). (Read Imam Al-Nawawi’s Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Fadaa’il Al-Sahaabah, Bab: Fadaa’il Fatimah bint Al-Nabi ‘Alayhi Al-Salatu wal Salaam, Commentary on Hadith no. 4482).

The Prophet’s intention was not to hurt the feelings of Abu Jahl’s daughter, for she was a good Muslim. Rather, his statement was an attack on her father and not on her. (Read Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani’s Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al-Nikah, Bab: Dhabb Al-Rajul ‘An Ibnatihi fi Al-Gheerah wal Insaaf, Commentary on Hadith no. 4829,)

This is even made clearer when we look at narrations where Ikrimah the son of Abu Jahl even after converting to Islam was referred to as “the son of the enemy of Allah”

The Prophet(saw) for all we know could have been representing Fatimah’s opinions this whole time. Fatimah(ra) could have told her father that she can’t bear living with Ali if he married Abu Jahl’s daughter and the Prophet(saw) is simply standing up for her. A father has the right to do that. In Islam, a woman has the right to divorce her husband if she can’t bear him marrying another woman, especially if it goes against any prior agreements between the two. This is something known. This doesn’t mean that she is forbidding him from marrying other women; rather it simply means that if he were to do so then it would come at the cost of her asking for a divorce. Both spouses must abide by the contract (either verbal or written) that they made before they got married and it was known that Prophet Muhammad(saw) stressed to Ali not to hurt Fatimah’s feelings at all costs. This was a condition that Ali must abide by at all costs, since he agreed to it. Since marrying the daughter of Abu Jahl would have broken that promise, he had to resort to not marrying her. (See Ibnul Qayyim, Zaad Al-Ma’aad, Volume 5, page 117).

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/11-sunni-answers-to-shiapens-article-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophetsaw-chapter-eleven/

Hadrami

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2016, 11:33:13 PM »
Salaam.

I came across one of your article, "The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)?

As I was reading that article many questions came into my mind. Before asking questions I will be quoting from that article so that it becomes easy to answer my questions.
Quote
The Rawafidh hold onto a Hadith in the Sahihayn, in brief this Hadith says that the Prophet (SAWS) is harmed if his daughter Fatima (ra) is harmed, and he (SAWS) is sad if she is sad and so on…
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah’s Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, “Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don’t give permission, and will not give permission unless ‘Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me.”
(Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim)
This Hadith is of the highest of levels of authenticity. And this comes as a result of `Ali’s (ra) second marriage, and it is because the Prophet (SAWS) feared that his daughter may have a Fitnah in her religion or a trial in her religion. Because if the marriage is going to block the wife from doing her job and duty towards her husband than divorce is better, and this is a wide topic.

Why this special privilege given to Prophet's (s) daughter (s.a) only? Every woman on the face of this earth whether believing or non-believing cannot tolerate her husband bringing another woman as his second wife.. and many women even do not tolerate their husband marrying another woman after their death. If Prophet (s) feared for his daughter (s.a) Fitna then every father on the face of this earth fears the same for their daughters when they get into the same situation.

Definitely not the same situation. Imagine your daughter's husband is going to marry someone whose father is your father's biggest enemy, who love to slander you, insult you etc. Even if the daughter is good & unlike her father still, your daugter could end up hating her husband marrying into the family of his father's enemy

Optimus Prime

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 09:49:22 AM »
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The narrator of the above hadiths, Al-Miswar bin Makhrama, refused to give his daughter in marriage to a husband of Fatima’s grand-daughter by citing the above Hadiths about Fatima and saying “I fear lest it would displease her”! This was due to his fear of provoking the jealousy of the daughter of RasulAllah.

I don't understand this. This narrator didn't marry his own daughter to a man who was the son of Fatima's (RA) granddaughter?

Because it would make her jealous? How?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 09:51:06 AM by Imam Ali »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 05:53:16 AM »
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The narrator of the above hadiths, Al-Miswar bin Makhrama, refused to give his daughter in marriage to a husband of Fatima’s grand-daughter by citing the above Hadiths about Fatima and saying “I fear lest it would displease her”! This was due to his fear of provoking the jealousy of the daughter of RasulAllah.

I don't understand this. This narrator didn't marry his own daughter to a man who was the son of Fatima's (RA) granddaughter?

Because it would make her jealous? How?

It is Husband of grand-daughter, not son.

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2016, 04:17:38 AM »
The Prophet’s daughter Fatima(ra) did not want to be in polygamy, neither were any of her sisters in polygamous marriages, and that was their personal choice which ought to be respected. It is permissible in Islam for a woman to stipulate it as a condition of her marriage that her husband won’t take a second wife while married to her.

Ibn al-Qayyim in Zaad al-Ma’ad said:

By mentioning his(saw) other son-in-law (Abu’l-‘Aas ibn ar-Rabee‘), and praising him for having spoken the truth and fulfilled his promise, He(saw) hinted to ‘Ali(ra) and encouraged him to follow his example. This gives the impression that he had made him a promise that he would not disturb her or hurt her, so he encouraged him to fulfil that promise, as his other son-in-law had fulfilled a promise he made.

Ibn al-Qayyim writes in Zâd al-Ma`âd (5/117-118):
If a man agrees to the condition that he will not marry a second wife, he is obliged by that condition. If the man breaks his promise, the woman will be entitled to terminate the marriage contract.

It is mentioned in the hadîth that what took place is hurting Fâtimah and therefore hurting him.It is known for sure that the Prophet(saw) let `Alî marry his daughter Fâtimah on the condition that he does not hurt her or her father, even if that is not mentioned in the marriage contract. The Prophet(saw) brought up mention of his other son-in-law to incite `Ali to do the same.” The Prophet’s reproach of `Ali was on account of `Alî’s heedlessness of this condition.

I am not aware of Prophet (s) marrying Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) to Imam Ali (a.s) on the condition of Imam Ali (a.s) not taking second wife during his marriage with Hadhrat Fatima (s.a). Can you provide reliable and authentic evidence for this?

As for the condition of not upsetting Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) then there are Sunni hadiths which tells us that during the marriage of Imam Ali (a.s) with Hadhrat  Fatima (s.a) Imam Ali (a.s) use to have sex with female captives and this used to upset Hadhrat Fatima (s.a). If this condition was true then divorce would have taken effect.

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Zainab, the eldest of the four daughters of the Prophet, was married to one Abul-‘As ibn er-Rabi’ of Makkah. This man fought against the Prophet in the battle of Badr, and was captured by the Muslims and he later converted to Islam. Yet the Prophet praised him as a good son in law saying :

Whatever he said was the truth, and he promised me and fulfilled his promise’‘. [The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 66. Book of the Virtues of the Companions].

This son-in-law was monogamous.

Why would Prophet (s) praise someone who wasn't even his son-in-law according to Shariah. Believing woman cannot be wife of Polytheist. Abu 'l Aas and Zainab remarried when Abu 'l Aas became Muslim. Abu 'l Aas being monogamous had no virtue as he was polytheist and Enemy of ALLAH & HIS Messenger (s) as he fought against Islam in Battle of Badr.

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And as for Ali he had no other wife besides Fatima whilst married to her. Only when she died did he become polygamous. As soon as one of his four wives died, he would marry another. In fact he had a total of eight wives and several concubines, but all only after Fatima passed away.

Imam Ali (a.s) did have concubines during the life of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a).

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The narrator of the above hadiths, Al-Miswar bin Makhrama, refused to give his daughter in marriage to a husband of Fatima’s grand-daughter by citing the above Hadiths about Fatima and saying “I fear lest it would displease her”! This was due to his fear of provoking the jealousy of the daughter of RasulAllah.

Correct me if I am wrong, are you saying that narrator of these hadiths Al-Miswar believes that all female progeny of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) upto this day can have their husbands not to take second wives besides them due to jealousy of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a)???

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Regarding Prophet(saw) not allowing Ali(ra) to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl, then it is not true that the Prophet (saw) cited the girl being the daughter of his enemy as a reason for Ali not marrying her. Rather, the Prophet’s(saw) statement was just a statement of fact in that he wanted to express what the outcome would be. This is similar to Anas bin An-Nadir’s statement “By Allah, her tooth will not be broken” (Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 135). (Read Imam Al-Nawawi’s Sharh Saheeh Muslim, Kitab: Fadaa’il Al-Sahaabah, Bab: Fadaa’il Fatimah bint Al-Nabi ‘Alayhi Al-Salatu wal Salaam, Commentary on Hadith no. 4482).

The Prophet’s intention was not to hurt the feelings of Abu Jahl’s daughter, for she was a good Muslim. Rather, his statement was an attack on her father and not on her. (Read Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani’s Fathul Bari, Kitab: Al-Nikah, Bab: Dhabb Al-Rajul ‘An Ibnatihi fi Al-Gheerah wal Insaaf, Commentary on Hadith no. 4829,)

This is even made clearer when we look at narrations where Ikrimah the son of Abu Jahl even after converting to Islam was referred to as “the son of the enemy of Allah”

When Prophet (s) married Umm e Habiba (r.a) at that time her father was also Enemy of ALLAH. Why is it permissible for Prophet (s) to marry daughter of his enemy whereas he (s) strongly disliked his son-in-laws to marry his (s) enemies.

From the above hadiths one is likely to get impression that Prophet (s) did not like his (s) son-in-laws to have second wives during the lifetime of his (s) daughters. He (s) would even praise Mushrik if he did not marry another woman due to his love for his (s) daughter even when there was no marriage contract between that Mushrik and his (s) daughter. And he (s) disliked his Muslim son-in-law to do something which is lawful according to Shariah just because it would make his (s) daughter jealous and depressed.

Optimus Prime

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2016, 04:27:41 AM »
Quote
The narrator of the above hadiths, Al-Miswar bin Makhrama, refused to give his daughter in marriage to a husband of Fatima’s grand-daughter by citing the above Hadiths about Fatima and saying “I fear lest it would displease her”! This was due to his fear of provoking the jealousy of the daughter of RasulAllah.

I don't understand this. This narrator didn't marry his own daughter to a man who was the son of Fatima's (RA) granddaughter?

Because it would make her jealous? How?

It is Husband of grand-daughter, not son.

So, he didn't want to give his daughter as a second wife?

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2016, 04:41:47 AM »
Definitely not the same situation. Imagine your daughter's husband is going to marry someone whose father is your father's biggest enemy, who love to slander you, insult you etc. Even if the daughter is good & unlike her father still, your daugter could end up hating her husband marrying into the family of his father's enemy

What would you say for the marriage of Prophet (s) with Umm e Habiba (r.a) which took place when Abu Sufyan was Prophet's (s) enemy?

Would Prophet (s) had allowed Imam Ali (a.s) to have second wife if he would had proposed daughter of Abu Sufyan instead of daughter of Abu Jahl during the lifetime of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a)?

From the hadith it seems that Prophet (s) could not bear the pain which his (s) daughters would had to go through if his (s) son-in-laws were to bring second wives during the lifetimes of his (s) daughters. He (s) could not let his (s) daughters to get jealous due to their sharing their husbands with another women.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 04:43:52 AM by Ijtaba »

Hadrami

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2016, 12:08:17 AM »
Definitely not the same situation. Imagine your daughter's husband is going to marry someone whose father is your father's biggest enemy, who love to slander you, insult you etc. Even if the daughter is good & unlike her father still, your daugter could end up hating her husband marrying into the family of his father's enemy

What would you say for the marriage of Prophet (s) with Umm e Habiba (r.a) which took place when Abu Sufyan was Prophet's (s) enemy?

Would Prophet (s) had allowed Imam Ali (a.s) to have second wife if he would had proposed daughter of Abu Sufyan instead of daughter of Abu Jahl during the lifetime of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a)?

From the hadith it seems that Prophet (s) could not bear the pain which his (s) daughters would had to go through if his (s) son-in-laws were to bring second wives during the lifetimes of his (s) daughters. He (s) could not let his (s) daughters to get jealous due to their sharing their husbands with another women.

Again, not the same situation. So Fatimah would hate her own father because of choosing Umm Habiba as wife? Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam is not Fatimah's husband. How do you explain when Fatimah was jealous because Ali was with a female slave? Have Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam also forbid Ali to be near female slave too since its caused her to be jealous? Not at all. To be jealous of your husband or wife is not a negative trait, but its clear that the reason it was forbidden was more than jealousy reason.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:10:00 AM by Hadrami »

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2016, 03:11:37 AM »
Again, not the same situation. So Fatimah would hate her own father because of choosing Umm Habiba as wife? Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam is not Fatimah's husband.

I had given the example of Hadhrat Umm e Habiba (r.a) from the perspective of Imam Ali (a.s) and not from the perspective of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a).

Imam Ali (a.s) had proposed to marry Muslim Woman. Why was this proposal strongly disliked by the Prophet?

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How do you explain when Fatimah was jealous because Ali was with a female slave? Have Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam also forbid Ali to be near female slave too since its caused her to be jealous? Not at all. To be jealous of your husband or wife is not a negative trait, but its clear that the reason it was forbidden was more than jealousy reason.

I myself had asked similar question at comment section for one of TS article. The response I got from TS was that female slave does not have status of a wife and because of this reason Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) tolerated Imam Ali (a.s) having sex with female slave.

Can you tell me the reason why did Prophet (s) strongly dislike the proposal of Imam Ali to marry Muslima who was also Sahabiyah (Female Companion of Prophet)?


Hadrami

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2016, 07:50:29 AM »
Again, not the same situation. So Fatimah would hate her own father because of choosing Umm Habiba as wife? Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam is not Fatimah's husband.

I had given the example of Hadhrat Umm e Habiba (r.a) from the perspective of Imam Ali (a.s) and not from the perspective of Hadhrat Fatima (s.a).

Imam Ali (a.s) had proposed to marry Muslim Woman. Why was this proposal strongly disliked by the Prophet?

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How do you explain when Fatimah was jealous because Ali was with a female slave? Have Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam also forbid Ali to be near female slave too since its caused her to be jealous? Not at all. To be jealous of your husband or wife is not a negative trait, but its clear that the reason it was forbidden was more than jealousy reason.

I myself had asked similar question at comment section for one of TS article. The response I got from TS was that female slave does not have status of a wife and because of this reason Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) tolerated Imam Ali (a.s) having sex with female slave.

Can you tell me the reason why did Prophet (s) strongly dislike the proposal of Imam Ali to marry Muslima who was also Sahabiyah (Female Companion of Prophet)?


Told you already, I believe the main reason was Fatimah RA may end up hating her husband for marrying into her father's staunchest enemy family.

As for slave is not wife, still it caused Fatimah RA to be jealous is it not? How come Ali was still allowed? So you see, jealousy was not the main reason he was not allowed to marry, otherwise he would be forbidden to be with slave too since it also made Fatimah RA jealous.

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2016, 01:55:13 PM »
Told you already, I believe the main reason was Fatimah RA may end up hating her husband for marrying into her father's staunchest enemy family.

As for slave is not wife, still it caused Fatimah RA to be jealous is it not? How come Ali was still allowed? So you see, jealousy was not the main reason he was not allowed to marry, otherwise he would be forbidden to be with slave too since it also made Fatimah RA jealous.

So your saying Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) hatred of Imam Ali (a.s) for marrying a Muslim Woman whose dead father who being staunchest enemy of Prophet (s) was the reason the marriage proposal was strongly disliked by the Prophet?

Its really strange that Abu Jahl's daughter is willing to marry a person who was enemy of her father and  whose people killed her father in a battle and yet on other hand Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) and Prophet (s) could not bear her (i.e. Abu Jahl's daughter) to become second wife of Imam Ali (a.s)?

Hadrami

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2016, 08:22:52 PM »
I think if you are willing to answer my previous question, this wont drag on much longer. I have answered your questions, now it's my turn. If you think it was due to jealousy, how come Ali RA was allowed to be with female slave even though Fatimah RA was also jealous because of that?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 08:28:02 PM by Hadrami »

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2016, 04:47:25 PM »
I think if you are willing to answer my previous question, this wont drag on much longer. I have answered your questions, now it's my turn. If you think it was due to jealousy, how come Ali RA was allowed to be with female slave even though Fatimah RA was also jealous because of that?

I had asked similar question to TS in one of their article Ibn Taymiyyah and Ahlulbayt by quoting Sahih Bukhari ahadith which showed Imam Ali (a.s) having sex with female captive from Khums. Below is their reply:

Quote
...sexual intercourse with a slave girl in another country (Yemen), is no where as hurtful as having to share your husband with another woman on a permanent basis.

The Status of Wife is far superior than the status of female captive. It seems to me that Imam Ali (a.s) having sex with female captive made Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) upset and angry but not jealous whereas the proposal of second marriage by Imam Ali (a.s) to another woman made Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) not only upset and angry but jealous as well as she would have to share her husband with another woman.

I fail to understand that why would Prophet (s) dislike Imam Ali (a.s) to do something which is lawful for any Muslim. Putting condition on a person to restrict him from doing what is his legal right from GOD (i.e. taking second wife) is like blackmailing. Why did Prophet (s) put condition on Imam Ali (a.s) saying either he could stay with his (s) daughter or with the daughter of his dead enemy and not with both at the same time?

Hadrami

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 10:47:37 PM »
The Status of Wife is far superior than the status of female captive.
It seems to me that Imam Ali (a.s) having sex with female captive made Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) upset and angry but not jealous whereas the proposal of second marriage by Imam Ali (a.s) to another woman made Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) not only upset and angry but jealous as well as she would have to share her husband with another woman.

You have no clue about woman :D Forget about having sex, even if you are only praising or talking about another woman, thats enough to make a wife jealous, unhappy & upset. We are talking about real woman in real life here, not just another ayatulaat's fictional stories. A status of wife vs slave has nothing to do with it. As a normal woman in real life, she was jealous with a slave and yet we didnt see Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam forbid Ali. So the main reason why that marriage was forbidden was not jealousy. For most people, i dont think it'll be this hard to see.

Hani

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2016, 12:28:46 AM »
As was previously mentioned, the Prophet (saw) placed a condition before marriage upon `Ali, he reminded him of it when mentioning the same condition that he had placed on a man in pre-Islamic times. That man was faithful to the condition and so `Ali is also expected to be faithful to that condition. This was the Prophet's (saw) intention behind mentioning abu al-`Aas and praising that quality he had.

The narration does not mention the placed condition but we can easily conclude that it is one of two:

A- Do not marry over Fatimah during her life specifically. (as she most likely requested from her father).

B- Do not do a matter that greatly hurts Fatimah in general. (seeing as though a second marriage is not an obligatory duty nor was it necessary, then `Ali had no right to hurt her by doing this)

The Prophet (saw) did not wish for people to be confused and think that he forbade polygamy because of this incident, so he (saw) specifically said: "I do not wish to forbid what is lawful."

The marital-condition was binding on `Ali as long as Fatimah was his wife, this is why the Prophet (saw) told `Ali he could divorce Fatimah and marry abu Jahl's daughter if he wished and that would be lawful for him.

It was very possible that Fatimah was not greatly hurt due to jealousy, but simply due to a personal feud she had with that other woman or her father (abu Jahl). We can deduce this by seeing the emphasis placed on combining these two women under one roof here:

"The daughter of Allah’s Messenger and the daughter of the enemy of Allah can never be combined at one place."

In this case, `Ali could have simply married any other woman and it would have worked. Therefore, this deduction would not be accurate although a personal grudge may have been a factor as well that added oil to fire.

Secondly, if a man decides to marry another woman but knew that his second marriage would annul his first marriage due to the fact that his first wife clearly announced that she will divorce him if he does so, then the second marriage is unlawful.

The Prophet (saw) said:

لا تُنْكَحُ امْرَأَةٌ بِطَلاقِ أُخْرَى

"Marriage to a woman cannot be established through the divorce of another woman."

Add to that the fact that a condition is binding in this case as well.

The fact that `Ali married multiple women after Fatimah's death shows that he was restricted by a promise he had made.

The Prophet (saw) orders us:

إن أحق الشروط أن توفوا به ما استحللتم به الفروج

"The condition that is most necessary to fulfill is the one that made a woman lawful for you."
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2016, 11:20:27 AM »
You have no clue about woman :D Forget about having sex, even if you are only praising or talking about another woman, thats enough to make a wife jealous, unhappy & upset. We are talking about real woman in real life here, not just another ayatulaat's fictional stories. A status of wife vs slave has nothing to do with it. As a normal woman in real life, she was jealous with a slave and yet we didnt see Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam forbid Ali. So the main reason why that marriage was forbidden was not jealousy. For most people, i dont think it'll be this hard to see.

I still don't agree. What would one feel if his mother, daughter or sister was some man's slave with whom he would only have sex as compared to one whose mother, daughter or sister is that man's wife?

Praising or talking about another woman in front of wife won't make her jealous unless she feels her husband inclining towards the praised woman for marriage purposes. Like all men.. women also age and they (women) also know that their Beauty isn't forever. And like men.. women also believe they are not perfect.

For the sake of argument, I believe it was not jealously.. remaining options left are:

01. Prophet (s) did not want any of his son-in-laws to engage in polygamy during the lifetime of his (s) daughters.

02. There was hatred and grudge in Prophet (s) and his (s) daughter Hadhrat Fatima (s) for Abu Jahl and his daughter that they could not even bear to let Hadhrat Fatima (s) share her husband (a.s) with her (Abu Jahl's daughter)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 11:22:35 AM by Ijtaba »

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2016, 11:52:55 AM »
As was previously mentioned, the Prophet (saw) placed a condition before marriage upon `Ali, he reminded him of it when mentioning the same condition that he had placed on a man in pre-Islamic times. That man was faithful to the condition and so `Ali is also expected to be faithful to that condition. This was the Prophet's (saw) intention behind mentioning abu al-`Aas and praising that quality he had.

The narration does not mention the placed condition but we can easily conclude that it is one of two:

A- Do not marry over Fatimah during her life specifically. (as she most likely requested from her father).

B- Do not do a matter that greatly hurts Fatimah in general. (seeing as though a second marriage is not an obligatory duty nor was it necessary, then `Ali had no right to hurt her by doing this)

The Prophet (saw) did not wish for people to be confused and think that he forbade polygamy because of this incident, so he (saw) specifically said: "I do not wish to forbid what is lawful."

The marital-condition was binding on `Ali as long as Fatimah was his wife, this is why the Prophet (saw) told `Ali he could divorce Fatimah and marry abu Jahl's daughter if he wished and that would be lawful for him.

It was very possible that Fatimah was not greatly hurt due to jealousy, but simply due to a personal feud she had with that other woman or her father (abu Jahl). We can deduce this by seeing the emphasis placed on combining these two women under one roof here:

"The daughter of Allah’s Messenger and the daughter of the enemy of Allah can never be combined at one place."

In this case, `Ali could have simply married any other woman and it would have worked. Therefore, this deduction would not be accurate although a personal grudge may have been a factor as well that added oil to fire.

Secondly, if a man decides to marry another woman but knew that his second marriage would annul his first marriage due to the fact that his first wife clearly announced that she will divorce him if he does so, then the second marriage is unlawful.

The Prophet (saw) said:

لا تُنْكَحُ امْرَأَةٌ بِطَلاقِ أُخْرَى

"Marriage to a woman cannot be established through the divorce of another woman."

Add to that the fact that a condition is binding in this case as well.

The fact that `Ali married multiple women after Fatimah's death shows that he was restricted by a promise he had made.

The Prophet (saw) orders us:

إن أحق الشروط أن توفوا به ما استحللتم به الفروج

"The condition that is most necessary to fulfill is the one that made a woman lawful for you."

For the argument's sake, lets assume that Prophet (s) place this condition on all his (s) son-in-laws i.e. Abu Al Aas, Imam Ali (a.s) and Hadhrat Uthman (r.a).. Can all Muslim fathers restrict their son-in-laws to forbid them from engaging in polygamy during the lifetime of their daughters? As by doing so Muslim fathers would be following Sunnah of Rasullullah (s)?

I am asking this question because I believe any Father would not like his son-in-law to engage in polygamy during the life of his daughter and if we have hadiths in which Prophet (s) have imposed a condition restricting a man not to engage in polygamy during the lifetime of his wife then surely this Sunnah can be followed by all Muslim fathers.

Hani

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2016, 05:30:06 PM »

For the argument's sake, lets assume that Prophet (s) place this condition on all his (s) son-in-laws i.e. Abu Al Aas, Imam Ali (a.s) and Hadhrat Uthman (r.a).. Can all Muslim fathers restrict their son-in-laws to forbid them from engaging in polygamy during the lifetime of their daughters? As by doing so Muslim fathers would be following Sunnah of Rasullullah (s)?

I am asking this question because I believe any Father would not like his son-in-law to engage in polygamy during the life of his daughter and if we have hadiths in which Prophet (s) have imposed a condition restricting a man not to engage in polygamy during the lifetime of his wife then surely this Sunnah can be followed by all Muslim fathers.


You need men to accept that condition, most men at the time would not accept a woman if she places a condition that he cannot re-marry. So fathers would have a hard time marrying off their daughters and would have to submit to reality.

In our days almost no one intends to marry more than one, so conditions like these will be acceptable today.

The issue with young married couples today is that they don't place any conditions nor are they educated about the rights and responsibilities of marriage in general. They rush into marriage like raging bulls and then run into walls. They never do the same when applying for jobs or signing university papers, in those cases you'll see them being extra cautious and will research thoroughly, yet in marriage they're wild oxen.

Allah's emphasis on the hardships encountered when trying to be just between more than one woman shows that the entire matter is disliked and that it is a door He opened ONLY for specific situations and to solve certain social issues.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hadrami

Re: TS Article: The Prophet (SAWS) only gets angry for Fatima (ra)
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2016, 11:04:47 AM »
Praising or talking about another woman in front of wife won't make her jealous unless she feels her husband inclining towards the praised woman for marriage purposes.

This comment tops it. You really have no clue about woman. You dont need to make a fool of yourself just because you want to defend your opinion :D

 

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