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Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid

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Farid

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2016, 11:41:01 AM »
how we can imagine Ibn Abbas and Aisha, 20 years after the death of the messenger (saws) , were not aware of the authenticity of the opposing recitation ?

It is natural to not know all the recitations. Remember, knowing or reciting narrations aren't obligatory in the first place. A better question to ask would be: How were they not aware of some rulings (i.e. mutah)?

scusemyenglish

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2016, 08:42:20 PM »
Salam.

I understand the fact that Scipt error is not thareff. It 's as if I do a orthograph mistake in my curriculum vitae. That don't means I do the tahreff of it.

So I would like summerize what I have understood about the fact that Ibn Abbas and Aisha were not aware of the authenticity of the opposing recitation . (Because I think it's very important)

 -1-Either Ayesah and Ibn Abbas read a recitation abrogated  by the messenger saws which was not included in the othman scritp.

-2- Or Ayesha and Ibn Abbas read an authentic recitation but it was not included in othman scritp who had deleted some authentic recitation.

-3- Or Ayesha, Ibn Abbas  read the authentic recitation but seing the "strange" orthograph of the othman script (accordind to them) they have interpreted that like an another unknow recitation.

-4- There is an another explanation that I have not grasped

Ustad Farid, what do you think about my view of your last paragraph?

 It's relevent or absolutly not?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 08:52:49 PM by scusemyenglish »
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Farid

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2016, 11:04:27 PM »
#2 makes sense to me. I did not understand #3 though.

scusemyenglish

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2016, 12:47:52 AM »
#2 makes sense to me. I did not understand #3 though.


For  #3 it's  "subbtle".

I think Ibn Abbas and Ayesah were accustomed to read their recitations with their own script which were their own tools.

But When the Uthmani script was here.

The Uthmani script was different compared to usual scripts that Ayesha and Ibn Abbas were accustomed.

Why? Because the Utmani Script needed to gathered maximun of recitations from sahaba. And that had an impact upon the ultimate script of Othman  and above all upon its orthography!

Then when Ayesha and Ibn Abbas had seen  the otmani script . I think they were disturbed by this orthography which was adjusted for Many recitations not for their specifics recitation (of ayesha and Ibn Abbas).

So I think it's possible that, they knew the recitations included in the othmani script. And I think may be the othman script gathered the recitation of Ayesha and Ibn Abbas. But like they were not accustomed to this script they have interpreted this script like an another recitation.

I think may be the orthography has disturbed them. But their recitation was included in othman script.

For summarize, I think it's because they had not "tamed" the othamni script that they thought that the othmani script were an another recitation. while not.

If I'm clear what do you think about this view?
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Farid

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 04:02:23 AM »
I see. I still think #2 is the best possibility to be honest.

scusemyenglish

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2016, 11:58:28 AM »
Saha aidkoume.



Is there a method to determine when something was narrated by a companion? Like this one?

Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

Narrated `Ikrima:
Ibn `Abbas said, "How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about their Books while you have Allah's Book (the Qur'an) which is the most recent of the Books revealed by Allah, and you read it in its pure undistorted form?"

Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah bin `Utba:
Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."

You know if Ibn Abbas talked about the the book of Allah in general way or if he refered to the Othmani Script?
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Farid

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2016, 12:20:29 PM »
The preservation of the Qur'an in the heart of Ibn Abbas does not require a script in the first place, as you are aware.

However, it can also be argued that some of the recitations are through Ibn Abbas, and do not have words like "tasta'thino" or "wa wasa", which could suggest that Ibn Abbas did ultimately accept the Uthmanic script.

This scenario is very likely as well.

scusemyenglish

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2016, 12:16:56 AM »
So for summarize the evolution of the view of Ibn Abbas .

- First, he was "supprised" by Othmani Script and he said it's an script error because he was not aware of another recitations.

Then he has seen his recitation was abrogated by the otmani script.

And finally he did accept the Uthmanic script, because he has learnt the qu'ran through the another authentic recitation of Ubay Ibn Kaab and Zayd Ibn Thabit and finnaly he has accepted to taught an another authentic recitation.

And he has concluded saying:


Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

Narrated `Ikrima:
Ibn `Abbas said, "How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about their Books while you have Allah's Book (the Qur'an) which is the most recent of the Books revealed by Allah, and you read it in its pure undistorted form?"

Narrated Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah bin `Utba:
Ibn `Abbas said, "O Muslims? How do you ask the people of the Scriptures, though your Book (i.e. the Qur'an) which was revealed to His Prophet is the most recent information from Allah and you recite it, the Book that has not been distorted? Allah has revealed to you that the people of the scriptures have changed with their own hands what was revealed to them and they have said (as regards their changed Scriptures): This is from Allah, in order to get some worldly benefit thereby." Ibn `Abbas added: "Isn't the knowledge revealed to you sufficient to prevent you from asking them? By Allah I have never seen any one of them asking (Muslims) about what has been revealed to you."


That's is how I see,chronogycally, the evolution of his view about the othmani script.

And may be it's like that we can reconciled the fact that he believed about the preservation of the qu'ran in his heart and above all in the utmani script.

You think it's accurate?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 12:28:01 AM by scusemyenglish »
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

GreatChineseFall

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2016, 12:26:10 AM »
You know if Ibn Abbas talked about the the book of Allah in general way or if he refered to the Othmani Script?

No, sorry but that was why I was interested in the timing of when this was said. If this incident happened after the other narrations then it doesn't even matter. But I don't think that there is a method of knowing what precedes what

scusemyenglish

Re: Latest shia lie about Ustad Farid
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2016, 03:03:33 PM »
You know if Ibn Abbas talked about the the book of Allah in general way or if he refered to the Othmani Script?

No, sorry but that was why I was interested in the timing of when this was said. If this incident happened after the other narrations then it doesn't even matter. But I don't think that there is a method of knowing what precedes what

Yes effectively I think  we also  can say that may be the claim of Ibn Abbas about the scirbe errors was chronologicaly after all his orhers hadith about the Qu'ran.

Because may be he has learnt the Qu'ran through Zayd and Ubay during many years and after He has seen the Uthmani Scrit he  was not aware of another authentic recitation from Utham, Ali or Ibn Massaud.

Or

He has learnt one way of reciation from Zayd And Ubay but both knew another recitations. And Ibn Abbas don't knew it. (even if I don't know if we can say that)

It's a big headhache. : = )
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

 

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