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21

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by TAHIR on April 15, 2020, 10:16:15 AM »

"Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time"

And I feel the same about you that you're looking for excuses to justify that the marraige took place. How? By completely rejecting everything I'm putting forward. So where does that leave us if the feeling and words are mutual. Tell me this, do the vast majority of the Shia scholars regardless of their rank and status accept that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no. Do the vast majority of the Shia community believe that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no.

What the hell did you brought fort Sunan nasai hadeeth which you don't believe in yourself,but want to save your religion just on that basis.
Till 4th century no shia scholar rejected this .
Latter some of them developed this set of excuses
My question are authentic hadith from.infallibles nothing,this only shows how biased your scholars have been latter on .

22

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by TAHIR on April 15, 2020, 10:09:41 AM »

First of all lets clear this.

In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.

This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).

Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.

"If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure"

Taqiyyah isn't lying. Learn and get to know the difference. If you do then there's no need to create mischief. Lying is dishonesty and taqiyyah is to conceal. Lying is to hide the truth based on dishonesty. And taqiyyah is to conceal the truth based on protecting it. The purpose of lying is to protect the guilty and or the crime or culprit. The purpose of taqiyyah is to protect the truth or people from unnecessary harm or hurt. That's the difference.

We all know the history of the Shia Imams and what they had to go through or were put through along with their families, followers and supporters.

"If imams made an incorrect statement publicly"

It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You  can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.

"wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"

It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surr.

"Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother"

I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.

. In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.

This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).

Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics. 

Not discussing taqiyyah here.

. It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You  can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.
     

Look at the idiot
Imam says Umar married umm kulthum
The idiot choses not to believe it
But imam made a correct statement also
You are sick .

.  wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"

It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surrounding it   

Again i am losing my temper over the purposeful crap that you r putting forth
Imam said umar married umm kulthum
Now it is necessary clarifying that .
You are really spitting whatever breads in your mind.

.
I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.   

Nope my dear you are the one doing all the dance here and i am bored with that by now.
You Posted in every single website you could dig up. And of no avail
First you say umar is portrayed a bad way
I refuted
Then you say , dates are confusing i refuted
Now your only lone excuse is marraige requires her to be much grown up.
my challenge, respond to this only instead of writing newspapers, show us one Shia scholar who says parents can't give children in marraige before puberty.

.  Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
   

The same khoei who didn't mind saying sunnis are najis (impure) the same khomayni who barked on aaisha (r.a) didn't care about Muslim faternity but ,when he was asked about can a man enjoy a child before puberty he suddenly becomes thoughtful of Muslim faternity ,which sunni scholar says ok pentrating a girl between thighs ,for khomayni to imitate sunnis for faternity .?

23

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help

« Last post by iceman on April 15, 2020, 10:06:00 AM »

Non of our major companions especially the first 3 khulafa went astray.

Let’s break this down and show it’s HATE that breads you and not LOGIC!👍

Prophet pbuh told “Them” to get out
In Shiism that means Umar ra!

This is the logic from a teacher from Pakistan representing the Shiite creed, how he or Shiism came to that conclusion........by assuming lies and creating a false image or character of the main culprit who supposedly burned down some door incident.😂

Shiism is easy because all you have is hate and lies as you keep proving time and again.😁

Now you are using the verse of Quran willy nilly on a companion without sufficient proof especially when equating “THEM” to just a Umar ra

“violating the command of Allah that "what ever the Prophet s.a.w gives you, take it and what ever he forbids refrain from it",

Ali ra also didn’t do what prophet pbuh wanted, When the Prophet pbuh asked Ali ra to erase something during the Treaty of Hudaybiyya, Ali ra refused to do so.

1) Umar are said Quran is sufficient because of His love for the prophet pbuh so He could rest.

2) Ali ra point blank REFUSED to write, an order given by prophet pbuh Himself.

Work it out ustaad DIMWIT the verse of the Quran relates more to Ali are than Umar ra completely destroying your stupidity.😂

Alhamdulillah we ain’t no ustaads/teachers but Allah swt sure has given us ahlu sunnah Aql.👍

1)you are a hypocrite for using my argument which you don’t believe of Nuwera being apostate.
2) you lied about Umar ra and tried presenting as fact

There you have it a hypocrite and a liar given with evidence.😁

Is this the positive and constructive bit you are talking about which you gave?😂😂

This is rafidhi Logic 😁

"Non of our major companions especially the first 3 khulafa went astray:

Major companions? So you do categorise the companions after all 😊 I thought according to you all companions were equal and the same 😊 I thought you didn't cherry pick 😊 So you do have minor and major 😊

So you have two companions Umar Al Khattab and Malik bin Nuwayrah. Umar wasn't interested in what the Prophet s.a.w had to offer and believed that the book of Allah is sufficient for us. So there was no need for anything else.

But the Prophet s.a.w didn't believe that the book of Allah was sufficient enough otherwise he wouldn't have said "fetch me a pen and paper so I may write something for you so you don't go ASTRAY after me". If the book of Allah was sufficient for them then the Prophet s.a.w wouldn't have used the word 'ASTRAY'

Despite this Umar is still a major companion for you but Malik bin Nuwayrah refused to hand over the Zakah money to the treasury because he wasn't happy with this new government policy of taking people's hard earned money and the government now decides what to do with it which is absolutely against the Qur'an to begin with, so this companion is now branded and labelled not by all Ahle Sunnah but by some as an apostate 😊

"Prophet pbuh told “Them” to get out
In Shiism that means Umar ra!"

Lol. Why are you running forward. And then going by assumptions. Forget about 'in Shiaism this means" ask Shiaism about Shiaism and any meaning about anything rather than putting words and meanings in from yourself and based on assumptions.

The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen and paper so he may write something for them so they don't go ASTRAY after him. First point, this document was so important that without it the companions would have gone ASTRAY. Prophet's s.a.w words and not mine.

Second point, Umar objected. Not a person or individual or any companion but Umar's name is absolutely clear in it. He objected. Reason for objection Umar gave? The Prophet s.a.w is ill or seriously ill. This is no ordinary individual where one can question their health and mental state based on their illness that should a pen and paper be given to them in this situation.

But infact this was not just a Messenger of Allah from the Messengers of Allah but the greatest of all times and second in line and in command after himself. And he wasn't aware of himself but Umar had more knowledge and information about him. Umar knew better about his health and mental condition.

24

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help

« Last post by iceman on April 15, 2020, 09:55:26 AM »

No they don’t differ on that apostate we are unanimous he was an apostate and then Khalid ra served under the khilafah of Umar ra whom Umar ra complained to Abu Bakr ra about before.😁

Your hate is inbred from birth about Umar ra we know, but you will use Umar’s complaint to Abu Bakr ra,the person who didn’t listen to the prophet pbuh according to your assumptions is now proof for you that Khalid was wrong??!?😂😂
You have NO logic at all you are all over the shop ustaad.😂😂

This is shiism they don’t know if they are coming or going👍

"No they don’t differ on that apostate we are unanimous he was an apostate and then Khalid ra served under the khilafah of Umar ra whom Umar ra complained to Abu Bakr ra about before"

REFERENCES 😊 Back it up 😊

"Your hate is inbred from birth about Umar ra we know"

You don't know anything about me apart from I'm a Shia. That's how you see and take me. Your hate for the Shias has been in you from day one. And it's clearly seen here 😊

"but you will use Umar’s complaint to Abu Bakr ra"

That clearly shows that I don't hate Umar. If I hated him I'd be against him everywhere 😊

"the person who didn’t listen to the prophet pbuh according to your assumptions"

I don't go by assumptions. You have to look at things separately and on a file to file basis. If a person is guilty in one case doesn't mean they're guilty everywhere. It's not that Umar didn't listen to the Prophet s.a.w, Umar disobeyed the Prophet s.a.w and violated the command of Allah.

This doesn't mean that I hate him or the man is guilty everywhere and in every place. Nor does it mean he didn't have a decent bone in his body. You don't want to accept that he did wrong. That's the point.


"is now proof for you that Khalid was wrong??"

Nice try 😊 Umar's got nothing to do with it.  Lets leave the man out of this. What is the Ahle Sunnah view in black and white and unanimously on Malik bin Nuwayrah? Bring it forward with references 😊 You haven’t put anything forward till yet.

What is the Ahle Sunnah principle about the Sahaba collectively? You believe they are all MEHFOOZ. Is that true? Can you clarify and explain this? 😊

"You have NO logic at all you are all over the shop ustaad"

I have plenty of logic which you can't put up with 😊 You're saying this just to cover your embarrassment 😊 You've got nothing 😊

"This is shiism they don’t know if they are coming or going"

Lol. Lol again. We've been around for 1400 years. Your big Imam Abu Hanifa who kicked you off was a student under Jaffar al Sadiq 😊 You've always been under us 😊 That's where you began from, under us 😊 Student who got picked up by the government and its agents to be lifted and promoted against Al Sadiq. That's where you're from. 😊

25

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help

« Last post by Mythbuster1 on April 14, 2020, 09:02:08 PM »

"Companions following another prophet is not a companion no more, he/she is not Muslim"

Firstly where is the clear cut evidence for this. Secondly you do believe that companions can go astray further as becoming apostates. Then believe in this principle and follow freedom of speech and the right of others to accept that companions went astray just as you say and believe they can. 😊

"You lost from the point you started equalling apostasy with a statement “Quran is sufficient”

A companion differed with Muhammad s.a.w on what he had to write and offer by saying "we have the book of Allah with us, the book of Allah is sufficient for us" Therefore violating the command of Allah that "what ever the Prophet s.a.w gives you, take it and what ever he forbids refrain from it", where he went astray along with others who sided with him.

Now those who believe in this you have no right what so ever to challenge them over this. Because you believe that companions can go astray. 😊

"You have been exposed as a liar and a hypocrite using double standards especially regarding the apostate"

That description fits on you. 😊

"You have NOTHING, your words are babble and you can’t even read the verses of Quran clearly without adding your own divine nonsense to them"

😀 Explain! You can't discuss. You don't have anything. 😊

"Bring it on big Shiite man"

😀 I have and I am. 😊 Nothing positive and constructive from you. 😊

Non of our major companions especially the first 3 khulafa went astray.

Let’s break this down and show it’s HATE that breads you and not LOGIC!👍

Prophet pbuh told “Them” to get out
In Shiism that means Umar ra!

This is the logic from a teacher from Pakistan representing the Shiite creed, how he or Shiism came to that conclusion........by assuming lies and creating a false image or character of the main culprit who supposedly burned down some door incident.😂

Shiism is easy because all you have is hate and lies as you keep proving time and again.😁

Now you are using the verse of Quran willy nilly on a companion without sufficient proof especially when equating “THEM” to just a Umar ra

“violating the command of Allah that "what ever the Prophet s.a.w gives you, take it and what ever he forbids refrain from it",

Ali ra also didn’t do what prophet pbuh wanted, When the Prophet pbuh asked Ali ra to erase something during the Treaty of Hudaybiyya, Ali ra refused to do so.

1) Umar are said Quran is sufficient because of His love for the prophet pbuh so He could rest.

2) Ali ra point blank REFUSED to write, an order given by prophet pbuh Himself.

Work it out ustaad DIMWIT the verse of the Quran relates more to Ali are than Umar ra completely destroying your stupidity.😂

Alhamdulillah we ain’t no ustaads/teachers but Allah swt sure has given us ahlu sunnah Aql.👍

1)you are a hypocrite for using my argument which you don’t believe of Nuwera being apostate.
2) you lied about Umar ra and tried presenting as fact

There you have it a hypocrite and a liar given with evidence.😁

Is this the positive and constructive bit you are talking about which you gave?😂😂

This is rafidhi Logic 😁

26

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help

« Last post by Mythbuster1 on April 14, 2020, 08:33:23 PM »

You are not aware of your history books. The reports on Malik bin Nuwayrah are mixed. Ahle Sunnah don't have a clear and fixed opinion on him. They differ on him becoming an apostate. Even Umar disagreed with him becoming an apostate and wanted Abu Bakr to punish Khalid over the killing of Malik bin Nuwayrah and his tribes men. A companion Abu Qatada, who was among the armed soldiers under the command of Khalid, complained to Abu Bakr over Khalid and testified that he saw Malik and his tribes men pray and claimed that Khalid did wrong by acting hastily.

No they don’t differ on that apostate we are unanimous he was an apostate and then Khalid ra served under the khilafah of Umar ra whom Umar ra complained to Abu Bakr ra about before.😁

Your hate is inbred from birth about Umar ra we know, but you will use Umar’s complaint to Abu Bakr ra,the person who didn’t listen to the prophet pbuh according to your assumptions is now proof for you that Khalid was wrong??!?😂😂
You have NO logic at all you are all over the shop ustaad.😂😂

This is shiism they don’t know if they are coming or going👍

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: 15000 Sunni Masaajids in Iran and 9 in Tehran alone?

« Last post by Mythbuster1 on April 14, 2020, 07:46:46 PM »

Will discuss that later. Don't run and hide. Bring evidence forward of Malik bin Nuwayrah and his tribes men (companions of the Prophet s.a.w) becoming apostates? 😊 Why are you hiding from this? 😊 Have I got you? 😊 Bring it on 😊

Yeah you got me man the proofs I gave you didn’t work Nuwera was not an apostate he was a shia who believed in divine imams.😂👍

28

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Myself against a bunch of shias .

« Last post by Mythbuster1 on April 14, 2020, 07:42:16 PM »

Thanks to YOU iceman Alhamdulillah you have proved to me who is a nobody with hardly any education that how EASY it is to counter shiism especially you being an ustaad a teacher.👍

This alone is enough to show how Sunnis triumph over evil liars.😁

29

General Sunni-Shia / Re: Myself against a bunch of shias .

« Last post by Mythbuster1 on April 14, 2020, 07:37:42 PM »

"who uses a hadith but CANNOT prove whom the prophet pbuh told to get out"

😂 It's common sense. Use it. The one who spoke and objected. And those who sided with him. 😊 The Prophet s.a.w asked for pen send paper, who thought it should be given to him. And who thought it shouldn't be given to him. It's that easy to work out. You don't need to be Einstein to figure it out  😊 You know the truth and what lies behind it. You're just too ashamed to admit it. 😊

"Lol they have passed away and their achievements are many in AUTHENTIC history as well as praises in sunnah as well as blessings of paradise from god"

And what about people like Malik bin Nuwayrah and his tribes men? They were companions of the Prophet s.a.w too. Where was their guarantee and ticket to heaven? What happened to that?  😊 If Qur'an and Sunnah speaks so highly of the companions then why categorise between them? And then when others do why sweat over it and lose sleep? 😊

"You can’t prove divine Imamate in Quran without adding your own thought!"

😀 Proven many times over. Asked many times over. Then proven many times over. Wilayat as well as Imamah. 😊 You just can't digest it 😊

"This is shiism a sect born from a guy who thought Ali ra was god!"

😊☺😀😃😁😅😂 You don't have a clue about what Shiaism is and what it stands for. 😊 So it's obvious you're going to try and paint an ill and gloomy picture about it. 😆😆

Nuwera gets NO ticket he turned apostate.....or do apostates get heaven in your sect?

Quran speaks highly of the first of the muhajiroun who are blessed paradise......last I heard was Nuwera wasn’t a muhajir he stayed in his own area.

Unfortunately for you quran completely stays silent on divine Imamate and Nuwera has no place in Quran like the first Muhajirs whom included the great Ameer ul maumineen Umar ra.

I know It hurts you have nothing and you are defending a nobody......Nowhera 😂😂

Assumptions and ideas don’t make authenticity, being an ustaad you should know this simple fact.😂

30

General Sunni-Shia / Re: 15000 Sunni Masaajids in Iran and 9 in Tehran alone?

« Last post by iceman on April 14, 2020, 07:32:28 PM »

You haven’t got facts but heresay and utter nonsense as is the case with you from day 1.

You can’t proof the core of your sects faith divine Imamate how on earth are you gonna prove falsehood right?😜

Will discuss that later. Don't run and hide. Bring evidence forward of Malik bin Nuwayrah and his tribes men (companions of the Prophet s.a.w) becoming apostates? 😊 Why are you hiding from this? 😊 Have I got you? 😊 Bring it on 😊