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Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.

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Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2021, 07:40:35 AM »
Authority can mean so many things to different humans, but, what you are saying is the problem. You don't join it with other verses and do not let Quran contextualize it's own verses.

The context of the Authority in 4:59 by verses before and after is divine Authority given by God to his chosen ones.

Where did you get the context for divine authority? No where in the verses before and after is there divine authority.

Do break it down word for word from Arabic instead adding your assumptions……..This is your Shiite problem you can never do so unless adding your own divine authority to it.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2021, 03:00:02 PM »
Where did you get the context for divine authority? No where in the verses before and after is there divine authority.

As before, it's because of the context of the Authority of the family of Ibrahim in 4:54 which is Divine Authority given by God. There are humans being compared to the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim. And because it then emphasizes on belief and disbelief in God's signs, and also the punishment for those who turn away and the reward of those who believe.

And it because the type being claimed by leaders of the people of the book is religious Authority which God is saying it's his chosen like the family of Abraham that truly have that.

As for after it's the verse emphasizing that all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission, and so both the context before and after is about divine Authority in his chosen.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 03:01:49 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2021, 12:56:20 PM »
As before, it's because of the context of the Authority of the family of Ibrahim in 4:54 which is Divine Authority given by God. There are humans being compared to the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim. And because it then emphasizes on belief and disbelief in God's signs, and also the punishment for those who turn away and the reward of those who believe.

And it because the type being claimed by leaders of the people of the book is religious Authority which God is saying it's his chosen like the family of Abraham that truly have that.

As for after it's the verse emphasizing that all Messengers were sent to be obeyed by God's permission, and so both the context before and after is about divine Authority in his chosen.

There is no divine authority given to Ibrahim as in verse 4/54.

It’s all ASSUMPTIONS trying your hardest especially given the satanic whispers you keep getting.

Basically you have nothing but conjecture at best.

Thankyou for proving to me you are not sane at all instead you see things that are NOT there especially in verses clear in the Quran.


Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2021, 07:25:16 PM »
4:54 shows the grace upon the family of Ibrahim.

(1) They are given the book (Nubuwa).
(2) Additionally they are given the wisdom (by which they teach people the message)
Then there is a 3rd emphasis, that they were given a great authority.

As people of the book weren't contesting Mohammad (s) on whether he had political authority or not, but rather, when he was a divinely appointed leader - the context again is divine authority.  The envy is towards the family of Mohammad (s) who too been given the great authority but as for the book, they aren't given that, but inherit the book/Nubuwa instead and they too have wisdom.

The emphasis on book and wisdom interprets it to be divine authority. That and household of Ibrahim are emphasized to be Imams who guide by God's command else where, and so all context of all these verses show it to be about divine authority.

The Quran also shows people of book leaders authority is being contrasted to the type Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim has, they weren't claiming they were political rulers but rather, they were claiming religious leadership.  The Quran says they don't have a share in it, and else where we see religious authority is something only given by God.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 07:33:48 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2021, 10:48:41 PM »
4:54 shows the grace upon the family of Ibrahim.

(1) They are given the book (Nubuwa).
(2) Additionally they are given the wisdom (by which they teach people the message)
Then there is a 3rd emphasis, that they were given a great authority.

As people of the book weren't contesting Mohammad (s) on whether he had political authority or not, but rather, when he was a divinely appointed leader - the context again is divine authority.  The envy is towards the family of Mohammad (s) who too been given the great authority but as for the book, they aren't given that, but inherit the book/Nubuwa instead and they too have wisdom.

The emphasis on book and wisdom interprets it to be divine authority. That and household of Ibrahim are emphasized to be Imams who guide by God's command else where, and so all context of all these verses show it to be about divine authority.

The Quran also shows people of book leaders authority is being contrasted to the type Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim has, they weren't claiming they were political rulers but rather, they were claiming religious leadership.  The Quran says they don't have a share in it, and else where we see religious authority is something only given by God.

There you go again ……..“envy is towards family of prophet pbuh”!!

You are ADDING in your assumptions to correlate with your false idea of divine authority you’ve just added the ahlubaith in yourself. Stop with your stupid assertions please!


Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2021, 11:49:39 PM »
There you go again ……..“envy is towards family of prophet pbuh”!!

You are ADDING in your assumptions to correlate with your false idea of divine authority you’ve just added the ahlubaith in yourself. Stop with your stupid assertions please!

It's a reasonable assumption that the humans being compared to an Ahlulbayt of the past are an Ahlulbayt themselves or else why mention this?

The "from you" in 4:59 is obviously saying, you too have been given possessors of the Authority like past people were given that in forms of "Ahlulbayts" as is obvious by mentioning the household of Abraham in 4:54.

4:54 is saying to the people of the book, why do you envy this Ahlulbayt while honoring the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim in the past? Why do honor an Ahlulbayt of the past and acknowledge their authority but are opposing the current Ahlulbayt of your time!

This is a problem on your part, not my part, on reciting Quran.

Quran is not meant to be seen as stories of the past, they are meant to be relevant, and a possible meaning of 33:33 is that it's saying all the talk of chosen ones who God attributed purity to in the past, is not really meant to attribute purity to them since they are no longer relevant, but the purpose is in fact really only to attribute purity to you Ahlulbayt so that people follow you.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 11:52:41 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2021, 10:01:50 AM »
It's a reasonable assumption that the humans being compared to an Ahlulbayt of the past are an Ahlulbayt themselves or else why mention this?

The "from you" in 4:59 is obviously saying, you too have been given possessors of the Authority like past people were given that in forms of "Ahlulbayts" as is obvious by mentioning the household of Abraham in 4:54.

4:54 is saying to the people of the book, why do you envy this Ahlulbayt while honoring the Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim in the past? Why do honor an Ahlulbayt of the past and acknowledge their authority but are opposing the current Ahlulbayt of your time!

This is a problem on your part, not my part, on reciting Quran.

Quran is not meant to be seen as stories of the past, they are meant to be relevant, and a possible meaning of 33:33 is that it's saying all the talk of chosen ones who God attributed purity to in the past, is not really meant to attribute purity to them since they are no longer relevant, but the purpose is in fact really only to attribute purity to you Ahlulbayt so that people follow you.




No it’s not a reasonable assumption……..stop basing verses of Quran on your assumptions!

“Front you” is not talking about the family…….that’s your insertion/assumption devoid of any facts relating to such.

Quran is haq is full of facts that are easy to understand………not facts twisted to suit your false islamic perspective.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2021, 02:50:37 PM »

No it’s not a reasonable assumption……..stop basing verses of Quran on your assumptions!

“Front you” is not talking about the family…….that’s your insertion/assumption devoid of any facts relating to such.

Quran is haq is full of facts that are easy to understand………not facts twisted to suit your false islamic perspective.

Why isn't a reasonable assumption?

The "from you" is obviously emphasizing on that we too be given the likes of an Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim.

You're being obtuse after the truth has become clear to you.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2021, 03:19:43 PM »
Why isn't a reasonable assumption?

The "from you" is obviously emphasizing on that we too be given the likes of an Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim.

You're being obtuse after the truth has become clear to you.

Your assumption is what it is and NOT what the Quran means.

You are using 4-54 meaning of ahl of Ibrahim as and deviously joining it up with 4-59 and extrapolating your own meaning of the verse 4-59 by translating it as tho it means family.

Why are you so simple? You need to get rid of satanic whispers that keep telling you to  forcefully assume something of divine family authority in the verses.

If I was being obtuse I wouldn’t be so sure in my rebuttals to your satanic inspired posts.

Rather the only person being obtuse here according to what the Quran says is…..you!
You have interpreted your own meaning from verses of the Quran.

Nothing but FALSE assumptions.

“And say: Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood has perished: for Falsehood by its very own nature is bound to perish.” Holy Quran: Chapter 17 Verse 81.


Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2021, 04:24:28 PM »
Your assumption is what it is and NOT what the Quran means.

You are using 4-54 meaning of ahl of Ibrahim as and deviously joining it up with 4-59 and extrapolating your own meaning of the verse 4-59 by translating it as tho it means family.

Why are you so simple? You need to get rid of satanic whispers that keep telling you to  forcefully assume something of divine family authority in the verses.

If I was being obtuse I wouldn’t be so sure in my rebuttals to your satanic inspired posts.

Rather the only person being obtuse here according to what the Quran says is…..you!
You have interpreted your own meaning from verses of the Quran.

Nothing but FALSE assumptions.

“And say: Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood has perished: for Falsehood by its very own nature is bound to perish.” Holy Quran: Chapter 17 Verse 81.

These assumptions are by rules of language, because language is contextual, you contextualize things, not break and isolate and take things to mean what you want out of desires. You see the context to the see the meaning.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2021, 05:22:29 PM »
1. What is Auli-Ibrahim?

Auli-Ibrahim is a higher type family, in which the kinship is due to:

(1) They are on a mission together to guide humans.
(2) They ascend together in heaven/sky
(3) They are on par with each other in rank
(4) They are blessed together and purified together one purification and level of blessings.
(5) They are related by blood as well

2. The comparison

The "do you envy..." is means of comparing, comparing who "the humans" with who? The comparison is with Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim (a) meaning the humans too are an Ahlulbayt chosen by God. Allah (swt) could've just said "Messengers" but instead emphasized on a chosen Ahlulbayt of the past, to show, this is what we are given too.


3. The Contrast


"do you envy" is also a contrast, with the authority of leaders of people of the book, with that of the humans envied and Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim, in this regard, the subject is about religious leadership and authority. The "Do they have a share in the authority?" is a rhetorical refutation that this authority is something that other than God decides... so the context is divine Authority.

4.  The emphasis of obeying God


In flow with that, is the emphasis to obey God showing obedience to the Rasool and Ulil-Amr is obedience to God.

5. The "from you" has a flow with Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim and their authority.


The from you is obviously saying, you too have been given an Ulil-Amr. And if we think about it, Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim are an Ulil-Amr as well.

This saying, you too have been given an Ahlulbayt that is given authority by God so obey God and obey them.

6. The Ayatallah and faith context


In addition to all this, is that the emphasis with respect to the envied humans, is to believe in Ayatallah and not turn away from the Authority vested in his chosen, in flow with that, is 4:59. The obedience to Ulil-Amr is clearly an issue of faith and submission. It's clear also by this emphasis to have faith in God's signs.

7. The witnesses


In addition to that, before getting into dialogue of the opposition of the people of the book to the envied humans, the Quran talked about the witnesses and for every people there is a witness from them, this flows also well to the Ulil-Amr, it's part of what gives it context by flow. It's obvious the Ulil-Amr are witnesses.

8. The great Authority


The great Authority is obviously one and the same that the Ulil-Amr are given and Ahlulbayt of Ibrahim were Imams who guide by God's command.

9. The obedience to all Messengers by God's permission

After that, there is emphasis that all Messengers were to be obeyed by God's permission, this again, is in context of divine Authority.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 05:28:17 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2021, 05:40:51 PM »
I suggest reflecting over the words. The same is done in 33:6, people if give proper context, it would be clear.

33:6 emphasizes on relationship of Prophet (s) with believers, to be that he is to preferred in both love and obedience. The Ulil-Arham share in that, and Awliya we are supposed to do good in are the Rasool and the Ulel-Arham linked to him, ulel-Ahrham have that Walayah some of them in priority to others (Succession) and Awliya is in context of this Welayah of the Prophet.  Why do some have priority to that, than others? It's because it has to do with current live leadership, and it means Hassan (a) has priority due to him being destined to be 2nd successor of Rasool (s), and then Hussain (a), then Ali son of Hussain (a). If you reflect over 33:6 alone, that should end the Shia-Sunni conflict.



The Prophet is Awla to the believers then themselves, and his wives are their mothers, and the possessors of kinship, some of them are Awla then others in the book of God from the believers and emigrants,  that you should only do good to your Awliya, indeed this is written in the book.


The verses after also flow better with this meaning and translation. The covenant with all Prophets (a) is related to that.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2021, 05:51:06 PM by Soccer »
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2021, 07:56:15 AM »
I suggest reflecting over the words. The same is done in 33:6, people if give proper context, it would be clear.

33:6 emphasizes on relationship of Prophet (s) with believers, to be that he is to preferred in both love and obedience. The Ulil-Arham share in that, and Awliya we are supposed to do good in are the Rasool and the Ulel-Arham linked to him, ulel-Ahrham have that Walayah some of them in priority to others (Succession) and Awliya is in context of this Welayah of the Prophet.  Why do some have priority to that, than others? It's because it has to do with current live leadership, and it means Hassan (a) has priority due to him being destined to be 2nd successor of Rasool (s), and then Hussain (a), then Ali son of Hussain (a). If you reflect over 33:6 alone, that should end the Shia-Sunni conflict.



The Prophet is Awla to the believers then themselves, and his wives are their mothers, and the possessors of kinship, some of them are Awla then others in the book of God from the believers and emigrants,  that you should only do good to your Awliya, indeed this is written in the book.


The verses after also flow better with this meaning and translation. The covenant with all Prophets (a) is related to that.


Again reflect on your assumptions and theories?? The verses are clearly not as you say.

As for using the verse lol……well most of your Shiites hate ummu ul maumineen and assume a different meaning to that.

No wonder your mental state isn’t stable.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2021, 03:26:43 PM »
Again, my assumptions are just applying contextualization to language and seeing Quran justly this way, something we learn from kids till now.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2021, 07:33:53 AM »
Again, my assumptions are just applying contextualization to language and seeing Quran justly this way, something we learn from kids till now.

Your mental assumptions are contextualising it to your own desires and you are forcing the Quran to twist it to your own way of mental thinking, something you and your Shiite ancestors have been doing since you started your sect.
You have no solid evidences apart from as I keep repeating……”ASSUMPTIONS”.

You can’t run away from it.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2021, 12:01:55 PM »
Your mental assumptions are contextualising it to your own desires and you are forcing the Quran to twist it to your own way of mental thinking, something you and your Shiite ancestors have been doing since you started your sect.
You have no solid evidences apart from as I keep repeating……”ASSUMPTIONS”.

You can’t run away from it.

Whether we desire it or not, doesn't change the fact it's the meaning by contextualization rules.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2021, 10:48:30 AM »
Whether we desire it or not, doesn't change the fact it's the meaning by contextualization rules.

Yes contextualisation by your wierd standards that has no basis.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2021, 04:48:59 PM »
Yes contextualisation by your wierd standards that has no basis.

Not weird, but rather we all apply the same standards on all words - but the sorcery of Iblis makes people take words of Quran out of their place (context).
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2021, 08:00:40 AM »
Not weird, but rather we all apply the same standards on all words - but the sorcery of Iblis makes people take words of Quran out of their place (context).


LOL

 Exactly what I’m referring to………the sorcery of iblis has got you and you are using the words of Quran out of their place (context), you are already believing in hidden imams and atom changing imams and using that to force your idea and assumptions on the Quran.

Soccer

Re: Hussain - So as to save the world from devastation.
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2021, 01:20:08 PM »

LOL

 Exactly what I’m referring to………the sorcery of iblis has got you and you are using the words of Quran out of their place (context), you are already believing in hidden imams and atom changing imams and using that to force your idea and assumptions on the Quran.

If you contextual Quran, Imams, their existence, their power and even their number are all clear.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

 

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