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Life after Shia questions

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Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2014, 12:08:39 PM »
Then please provide me with those references and prove to me how would you become a kafir by accusing someone of becoming a kafir??? And also how would someone become a kafir because you believe and accuse them of it???

Can you at least try to read what I post? It makes someone a kafir because those with such believe have gone against Allah who testify that Abu Bakar RA is not a kafir. Get it?

Calm down brother and relax. There is no need to get personal. It is just a general discussion. First you speak about takfeer, take a look at all the Muslim organisation/parties/groups who are involved in and carry out terrorist activities world wide, they all claim to be and no doubt are from the Ahle Sunnah.

You'd probably too young to know where those terrorism ideas came from. It was pioneered by secular/marxist/shia organisations in the late 70s/early 80s & unfortunately some sunni groups now are embracing it without knowing that they are following what is originally shia/secularist diseases.

Thirdly I don't want your opinion and I'm not interested in mine either, prove to me through Quran and Sunnah and absolutely clearly that you would become a kafir if you say this, do that or believe in this. It doesn't matter if it is the companions, wives or any other relative of the Prophet (pbuh), how would you become a kafir by not accepting and believing in them, in the manner you have put forward??!

Don't worry, i'll give one of your greatest scholar opinion who said all Sunni are disbeliever.

Don't forget to put forward references for what Shia scholars say and the claims you have made. I will discuss them one by one.
As a start, let's just use 1 reference so we don't go all over the place. You know al-Majlisi right? Just in case you don't, hes the greatest Iranian shia scholar whose works is respected by all Shia scholars to this day. Can I quote from one of his works to proof that shia is a takfiri sect?

Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.

Hadrami

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2014, 07:08:08 AM »
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.

Munafiq is worse than kafir. Its either you dont know much about your own scholar's belief or you just playing the taqiyah card. In this case, I believe youre a very passionate but extremely ignorant & uninformed Shia.

Let's open al-Majlisi, one of the greatest shia scholar from the what is now known as the great "Islamic" Republic of Iran. In his book Hayat al-Qulub Vol 3 Chapter "There is Imam in every age & his obedience is wajib" Part "It is mandatory to know the imam of the time"

"Allamah" Majlisi wrote

Quote
It must be understood that among SHIA, the confession/belief in the Imam is one of the principles of faith and the one who discards it will be, in the akhirat, with the kuffar and mushrik

Now, did Sunni believe in your hidden mahdi? No! So what does it make us?
Or what about this quote from that same chapter

Quote
In Kamaluddin with reliable chain of narrators that people asked Imam Ridha (AS): "If a man dies without knowing his imam has he died the death of jahiliyah? The Hazrat said: Yes, a man who doubts the Imamah of Imam or desist from him is a kafir and the one who denies the Imamah or shows hate towards Imam is a mushrik, that is, like an idol worshipper"

Sunni not just doubt your mahdi, we deny that hidden mahdi exist, so according to imam, Sunni are also mushrik.

That is just a drop of the ocean and you want to deny that shia is a takfiri sect? Instead of asking for proof & reference, why dont you just read your own books?

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2014, 11:53:59 AM »
Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing. If someone has accused Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) of kufar or claim he was a kafir then, i would like to see this. Going against what is said in the Quran either makes you a sinner or a kafir or a mushrik. I read very carefully what you say but unfortunately you are not making any sense. You're giving me a lot words and advice but that is it, nothing concrete and solid. You're beating around the bush. I would like to here what these Shia scholars say and I also what to know why certain Shias are Kafir. You haven't given me any reference from the Quran to back what you're saying. All you're doing is going on about it rather than taking it forward.

Munafiq is worse than kafir. Its either you dont know much about your own scholar's belief or you just playing the taqiyah card. In this case, I believe youre a very passionate but extremely ignorant & uninformed Shia.

Let's open al-Majlisi, one of the greatest shia scholar from the what is now known as the great "Islamic" Republic of Iran. In his book Hayat al-Qulub Vol 3 Chapter "There is Imam in every age & his obedience is wajib" Part "It is mandatory to know the imam of the time"

"Allamah" Majlisi wrote

Quote
It must be understood that among SHIA, the confession/belief in the Imam is one of the principles of faith and the one who discards it will be, in the akhirat, with the kuffar and mushrik

Now, did Sunni believe in your hidden mahdi? No! So what does it make us?
Or what about this quote from that same chapter

Quote
In Kamaluddin with reliable chain of narrators that people asked Imam Ridha (AS): "If a man dies without knowing his imam has he died the death of jahiliyah? The Hazrat said: Yes, a man who doubts the Imamah of Imam or desist from him is a kafir and the one who denies the Imamah or shows hate towards Imam is a mushrik, that is, like an idol worshipper"

Sunni not just doubt your mahdi, we deny that hidden mahdi exist, so according to imam, Sunni are also mushrik.

That is just a drop of the ocean and you want to deny that shia is a takfiri sect? Instead of asking for proof & reference, why dont you just read your own books?

Brother thanks for putting these references forward. I am not going to disregard and dispute over the narration or narrators like others do, when I put references forward. I would like to take this discussion forward. Brother you are still beating around the bush. You still haven't answered my question that how does one become a Mushrik, kafir or munafiq just because some has accused you of shirk, nifaq or Kufr ???? Just because someone believes that you are??? Explain to me!

What people think and what their thought, opinion and point of view is down to them. You accuse Shia of the same thing, now this doesn't mean they have become Mushrik, munafiq or kafir because if you believe in this then that's fine, continue to believe in what ever you want. But to prove your thought, opinion and point of view is entirely a different matter.You don't become one just because someone thinks that you are and accuses you of it.

This discussion started off by a brother saying that Shiaism is the religion of satan, the religion of shirk. Some brothers, just like you, believe Shia are kafir. They are a takfeeri sect. Now we have different views here. Shirk and Kufr are two completely different things. I ask you to discuss and prove your views and you start beating around the bush, brother Ebn Hussein has gone completely silent. So what's happening???

Brother Ebn Hussain believes that Shiaism is a religion of satan, a religion of shirk. Brother Hani completely and absolutely disagrees with this. He believes that it depends on the Shia individual or sect. What they say and believe in. So what is the score???

Once again you don't become anything just because someone believes in and accuses you of something. Prove me through  Quran and Sunnah that, never mind about Shia, so and so is a kafir or Mushrik??? I advise brother Ebn Hussein to learn and educate himself about shirk and Kufr. These are two completely different things. Shiaism can't be the religion of satan and the religion of shirk at the same time. It's either one or the other.

I am still waiting for him to come out of hiding and explain himself!

Hadrami

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2014, 12:49:20 PM »
I dont know how many times i have to repeat myself that when shia scholars accuse Abu Bakar RA as kafir, munafiq, full of treachery etc that belief itself is kufr because it is a belief which is against Allah testimony that:
- he was an emigrant & believer
- he was the second of the two whose Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam said "Allah is with US".
- he fought with his life & wealth
- he became muslim before fathul makkah
- he was the person who pledge under the tree whose Allah was pleased with
he is so full of virtues from all those examples above that its mind boggling that after reading al-Qur'an someone would still believe shia scholar that he was a bad man.

Anyway, you can find all that in al Qur'an since there is no use for me to mention sunni ahadith. Please don't ask the same question 3-4-5 times OK. Its annoying.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 12:51:28 PM by Hadrami »

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2014, 03:14:09 PM »
Ok brother, i am not going to ask you this question again.

The definition of "kufr" is the rejection of   "nabuwath" or any part of it. What i mean by any part is that, one needs to accept and believe in all Messengers and Prophets and what ever was revealed upon them. Any rejection of any messenger and or Prophet or what ever was revealed upon whom ever results in kufr and you become a kafir.

Now would you agree to this??? If yes then explain to me that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra), a great companipn of the Prophet (pbuh), since when did  he or his Emaan become part of "nabuwath"???

Like i said before going against or disregarding certain things concerning Allah himself, never mind about the Prophet (pbuh), would make you a sinner (guehgaar) but not a kafir.

How would or how does having suspicion and doubt about any companions faith and belief make you a kafir??? Explain to me this.

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

Exain this to me please brother. As far as i am concerned no Shia believes Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was or became a kafir. If there is anyone out there who does then, i would like them to step forward.

You or anyone making accusations that this is what Shias believe in and that is what Shias believe in, please i have heard enough of this.

Ebn Hussein

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2014, 09:40:24 PM »
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2014, 11:04:07 PM »
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.

Between me and you, our attitude, language and behaviour towards each other tells, who is a kid and who isn't. Even kids nowa days don't even behave the way you do. But i guess you are what you are. Don't forget you are an ex rafidah and how many years of your life have you been a rafidah??? So when did you finally decide to leave this religion of satan and shirk that you now speak of???

You keep yapping on about thaqeya, along with kufr, shirk etc, I advise you to gain some basic knowledge and information about things and do your homework, before you start shooting off. You can't answer anything I have put forward and that is for sure. As far as thaqeya is concerned, I can easily introduce and talk about myself, you on the other hand can't. So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???

Once again to refresh your memory, which Sunni are you and why??? Can you introduce yourself??? From the rafidah religion which Sunni did you become and why??? Don't yapp on about thaqeya in front of me. Munafiq is worse than a kafir??? Who said anything about this??? Why don't you answer the questions related to your posts or just remain silent and stay out of the way, if you can't say anything useful???

You can't explain kufr then, ok. If someone considers any companion to be a munafiq, how does that companion become a munafiq and how does the accuser become a kafir because of this??? Prove to me through Quran and Sunnah or get someone who can and stay out of the way and stop derailing the discussion.


Ebn Hussein

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #47 on: December 26, 2014, 12:25:45 AM »
^Kids don't admit mistakes. You made a blunder and write and essay to cover it. Surely you are an ignorant kid, have a nice day. Also it's called Ex-Rafidi. Rafidah is a sect, you can't be an "Ex-Christianity" for example. Tse, tse, tse ... the level is so low here, where are the knowledgable Shias?

Don't interview me, who the heck are you anway? I've dozens of posts here where I express my belief, the rest is none of your business. The following made me laugh:

So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???

What is "Thaqeya". It's called Taqiyyah and the only one who is hiding constantly is your 12th Imam, the useless coward.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 12:29:01 AM by Ebn Hussein »
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Hadrami

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2014, 12:11:13 AM »
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.

I want to know what he really believes. That quote above is nothing compare to this one below

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

Hani

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2014, 03:03:27 PM »
This topic is not very fruitful I suggest all of you stop arguing.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
^Kids don't admit mistakes. You made a blunder and write and essay to cover it. Surely you are an ignorant kid, have a nice day. Also it's called Ex-Rafidi. Rafidah is a sect, you can't be an "Ex-Christianity" for example. Tse, tse, tse ... the level is so low here, where are the knowledgable Shias?

Don't interview me, who the heck are you anway? I've dozens of posts here where I express my belief, the rest is none of your business. The following made me laugh:

So how am I in thaqeya when you're in constant hiding about your belief and faith???

What is "Thaqeya". It's called Taqiyyah and the only one who is hiding constantly is your 12th Imam, the useless coward.

Brother what or which blunder did I make??? I strongly agree with brother Hani and advise you that please don't turn this in to an argument. Lets keep it a discussion. Can you define Shirk, Kufr and Taqiyya for me??? I am not going to comment on your sarcasm, slander and attacks from now on. You want to continue in such a manner then that is down to you.

MuslimK

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Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2014, 05:24:46 PM »

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

Thats it! No more replies to such ridiculous comments.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2014, 05:31:18 PM »
Brother Hadhrami, why you wasting your time on this taqiyyah mongering kid. I mean for God's sake, seriously ... he doesn't even know that a Munafiq is worse than a Kafir, in fact a Munafiq is the lowest part of hell, yet look what this 'smart' boy says:

Quote from: Rafidilink=topic=191.msg1357#msg1357 date=1419383717


Who said that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a kafir??? If someone believes that he was a munafiq then that is another thing.

Wallahi I laughed so hard. Read my signature and you will understand that Imam al-Shafi'i was right when he basically said that the Rafidah are the most lying and dumbest creatures walking the earth.

I want to know what he really believes. That quote above is nothing compare to this one below

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

All I asked from you was how do you become a Kafir by accusing anyone of Kufr??? What you have done is cross questioned or turned the discussion around instead of backing and proving your claim. I have not come across any Shia that has openly turned around and said "we believe that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a Kafir". If there is then I would like to here it from that Shia and I will discuss this with them in great detail.

Now if someone did believe that Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was a Kafir then how does this make the accuser or the accused a kafir?!! This is all I have asked you and all you have done is beat around the bush or turn this discussion in to an argument. Do you want to attract Shias and welcome them for a healthy discussion or do you want to discourage them from speaking to you because of your attitude, behaviour and ways.

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2014, 05:41:24 PM »

Now if Allah says that Abu Bakar (ra) was a believer and a firm believer, a very strong believer but certain people believe and accept that he went astray on and over certain matters after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) then, how is this kufr???

This is the worst comment so far. I advise you, Ameen, to retract that statement and repent. This is my last post. You need help ASAP.

Thats it! No more replies to such ridiculous comments.

What about the slander, attacks, accusing and abusing, calling names and all the other comments, such as calling people's faith and belief as wretched, the religion of Satan, the religion of shirk and all the rest of it, that is being said and going on right in front of your eyes and right under your nose???

Do we have any justice, fairness or may be a little shame here if not much, to be reasonable from all sides and parties??? Or are we bias but just turn a blind eye to it and then accuse others of it???

Ameen

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2014, 04:48:51 PM »
My dear brothers you mention and talk a lot about Tabarra and Cursing. Take a look at the following and lets here your thought, opinion and point of view about this.


Muawiyah Instituting The Curse Of Imam ‘Ali (as)

Muawiyah not only fought Imam ‘Ali, he cursed Imam ‘Ali as well. Furthermore, he did force/make everybody to curse ‘Ali (as). To prove it, we begin with

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas: Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa’d, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of ‘Ali)?”Sa’d replied: "Don’t you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) ‘Ali? So I will never curse ‘Ali."

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.

For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,

Tradition #5916

 أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا ، فقال: مامنعك أن تسب أبا التراب ، فقال: أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه
The above tradition, by the way, indicates that Muawiyah was surprised why Sa’d does not follow his order of cursing ‘Ali, like others do. This shows that cursing ‘Ali was a habit (Sunnah) for people at that time. Who made this Sunnah? Was it ‘Ali, or those who fought him? Now, who fought against ‘Ali? Wasn’t he Muawiyah (the beloved companion of Wahhabis)? So this implies that Muawiyah did innovate that habit (cursing ‘Ali as Sunnah).

Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam ‘Ali (as), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse ‘Ali in public, otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that:

The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa’d, and ordered him to curse ‘Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don’t want to curse ‘Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of ‘Ali).”Sahl said: "‘Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and ‘Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab.”

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Here is the Arabic text of the above tradition given by Sahih Muslim:

استعمل على المدينة رجل من آل مروان ، قال فدعا سهل بن سعد فأمره أن يشتم عليا ، قال: فأبى سهل ، فقال له: أمّا إذ أبيت فقل: لعن الله أبا التراب. فقال سهل: ما كان لعليٍّ اسم أحب إليهِ من أبي التراب و إن كان ليفرح إذا دُعيَّ به.
Cursing Imam ‘Ali (as) was an order from the beginning of Muawiyah’s reign for 65 years. He was Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz (may Allah be easy with him) who canceled this order after more than half a century. Some historians even believe that the Umayyah descendants themselves killed (poisoned) Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz, because he changed their Sunnah, one of which was cursing ‘Ali.

(See the Sunni book entitled "History of the Saracens,”by Amir ‘Ali, Chapter X, pp 126-127).

One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyah was that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, they used to insult Imam ‘Ali (as) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This was even done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front of the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny), so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (S), and Imam ‘Ali (as), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears with their ears.

Sunni references:

- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80

On insulting ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah period starting in Muawiyah’s reign, it is reported that:

"‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.

Sunni reference: Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38

In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (S) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar, and that is because you are cursing ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him.”But no one paid any attention to what she said.

Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300

"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed ‘Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, in some of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."

Sunni references:

- Rabeea’ al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari
- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti

al-Shaikh Ahmad al-Hafdhi al-Shafi’i, composed 9 verses of poetry expanding on what al-Suyuti has reported in the previous quote, I translated the first three verses:

And Shaikh al-Suyuti told:

That it was what they made into a "Sunnah". Seventy thousand mibar plus ten from the top of which they cursed Haydara (‘Ali). And next to this the greatest (sins) look small, but blame ought to be directed.

Let us now see the opinion of the son of Yazid about his father and his grandfather, who was the witness from within the royal family! ...When (Yazid) offered the kingdom (throne) to his son, Muawiyah the second, in order that the flag of caliphate continues to wave in the house of Abi Sufyan!!

After his death, Muawiyah the second, gathered the people on a well known day, he stood in them preaching, he said:

"My grandfather Muawiyah stripped the command from those who deserved it, and from one who is more justified of it, for his relation to the Messenger of Allah and his being first in Islam, and that is ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib, he (Muawiyah) took over it by your help as you are fully aware."

"Then following it my father Yazid wore the command after him, and he did not deserve it. He quarreled with the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and by that he shortened his own life... He rode his whim and hope left him behind.”

Then he cried and continued: "Surely, the greatest problems of us is our knowledge of his bad behavior and his awful ending, and that he killed the progeny (Itrah) of the Messenger of Allah, and he permitted drinking alcohol, and he fought in the sanctuary of Mecca, and destroyed the Ka’ba.”

"And I am not the one who is dressing up for your command, nor the one to be responsible for your followers... You choose for yourselves..!!"

Sunni references:

- Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Muhammad Khalid, p531 (The above quote includes author’s punctuation.)

- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336

Muawiyah and Yazid murdering Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as) by poison, reported by many, here are a few Sunni references:

1. Tathkarat al-Khawass, Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 191-194.
2. Ibn Abd al-Barr, in his "Seera"
3. al-Suddi
4. al-Sha’bi
5. Abu Nu’aym

Taha

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2014, 03:51:14 AM »
You can pick any Madhab you like, they're all the same.


Even though Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and Imam Shafi'i hated Abu Hanifa?


Although, as far as Madhahib go, the school of Abu Hanifa is probably the best as long as you stay away with the Salafi-infused modern interpretations (like from Dar'ul Ulum Deoband).  Abu Hanifa was the most tolerant of all four and his authentic views are quite different from modern "Hanifi" scholars.  He allowed beer, for example.


Your gay relatives aside, do you want to remain upon this path that you are on? Or don't you see any problems at all with Tashayyu`?



There are problems with tashayyu`, sure.  But there are more problems with Sunniism, as far as I can see.  I'd be happy to tell you in private all the issues I have with tashayyu`, but I don't want to post them publicly.



Oh, you're just upset you weren't invited to the wedding. ;p



Oh hush.  :P




How can your cousin call himself religious and practice sodomy, then tell you you're going to hell? Did he do a 'nikah' or no? This is too weird  :o 

Yeah, I don't know.  I don't think he did a 'nikah' and it was just civil, but I don't even know.  I'm not close with him or anything.  I only see him once or twice a year.  I saw pictures of the wedding on Facebook is all.


Don't believe people's random stories online brother.

Yeah, we rawafid make up stories that slander our own families just so we can one up some anonymous screen-name online. 

Optimus Prime

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2014, 10:10:53 AM »
My dear brothers you mention and talk a lot about Tabarra and Cursing. Take a look at the following and lets here your thought, opinion and point of view about this.


Muawiyah Instituting The Curse Of Imam ‘Ali (as)

Muawiyah not only fought Imam ‘Ali, he cursed Imam ‘Ali as well. Furthermore, he did force/make everybody to curse ‘Ali (as). To prove it, we begin with

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas: Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa’d, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of ‘Ali)?”Sa’d replied: "Don’t you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) ‘Ali? So I will never curse ‘Ali."

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.

For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,

Tradition #5916

 أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا ، فقال: مامنعك أن تسب أبا التراب ، فقال: أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه
The above tradition, by the way, indicates that Muawiyah was surprised why Sa’d does not follow his order of cursing ‘Ali, like others do. This shows that cursing ‘Ali was a habit (Sunnah) for people at that time. Who made this Sunnah? Was it ‘Ali, or those who fought him? Now, who fought against ‘Ali? Wasn’t he Muawiyah (the beloved companion of Wahhabis)? So this implies that Muawiyah did innovate that habit (cursing ‘Ali as Sunnah).

Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam ‘Ali (as), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse ‘Ali in public, otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that:

The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa’d, and ordered him to curse ‘Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don’t want to curse ‘Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of ‘Ali).”Sahl said: "‘Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and ‘Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab.”

Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of ‘Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Here is the Arabic text of the above tradition given by Sahih Muslim:

استعمل على المدينة رجل من آل مروان ، قال فدعا سهل بن سعد فأمره أن يشتم عليا ، قال: فأبى سهل ، فقال له: أمّا إذ أبيت فقل: لعن الله أبا التراب. فقال سهل: ما كان لعليٍّ اسم أحب إليهِ من أبي التراب و إن كان ليفرح إذا دُعيَّ به.
Cursing Imam ‘Ali (as) was an order from the beginning of Muawiyah’s reign for 65 years. He was Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz (may Allah be easy with him) who canceled this order after more than half a century. Some historians even believe that the Umayyah descendants themselves killed (poisoned) Umar Ibn Abdil Aziz, because he changed their Sunnah, one of which was cursing ‘Ali.

(See the Sunni book entitled "History of the Saracens,”by Amir ‘Ali, Chapter X, pp 126-127).

One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyah was that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, they used to insult Imam ‘Ali (as) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This was even done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front of the grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny), so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (S), and Imam ‘Ali (as), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears with their ears.

Sunni references:

- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188
- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154
- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80

On insulting ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah period starting in Muawiyah’s reign, it is reported that:

"‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.

Sunni reference: Mu’jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38

In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (S) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar, and that is because you are cursing ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him.”But no one paid any attention to what she said.

Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300

"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed ‘Ali Ibn Abi-Talib, in some of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."

Sunni references:

- Rabeea’ al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari
- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti

al-Shaikh Ahmad al-Hafdhi al-Shafi’i, composed 9 verses of poetry expanding on what al-Suyuti has reported in the previous quote, I translated the first three verses:

And Shaikh al-Suyuti told:

That it was what they made into a "Sunnah". Seventy thousand mibar plus ten from the top of which they cursed Haydara (‘Ali). And next to this the greatest (sins) look small, but blame ought to be directed.

Let us now see the opinion of the son of Yazid about his father and his grandfather, who was the witness from within the royal family! ...When (Yazid) offered the kingdom (throne) to his son, Muawiyah the second, in order that the flag of caliphate continues to wave in the house of Abi Sufyan!!

After his death, Muawiyah the second, gathered the people on a well known day, he stood in them preaching, he said:

"My grandfather Muawiyah stripped the command from those who deserved it, and from one who is more justified of it, for his relation to the Messenger of Allah and his being first in Islam, and that is ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib, he (Muawiyah) took over it by your help as you are fully aware."

"Then following it my father Yazid wore the command after him, and he did not deserve it. He quarreled with the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and by that he shortened his own life... He rode his whim and hope left him behind.”

Then he cried and continued: "Surely, the greatest problems of us is our knowledge of his bad behavior and his awful ending, and that he killed the progeny (Itrah) of the Messenger of Allah, and he permitted drinking alcohol, and he fought in the sanctuary of Mecca, and destroyed the Ka’ba.”

"And I am not the one who is dressing up for your command, nor the one to be responsible for your followers... You choose for yourselves..!!"

Sunni references:

- Khulafaa al-Rasool, by Khalid Muhammad Khalid, p531 (The above quote includes author’s punctuation.)

- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, end of Ch. 11, pp 336

Muawiyah and Yazid murdering Imam al-Hasan Ibn ‘Ali (as) by poison, reported by many, here are a few Sunni references:

1. Tathkarat al-Khawass, Sibt ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 191-194.
2. Ibn Abd al-Barr, in his "Seera"
3. al-Suddi
4. al-Sha’bi
5. Abu Nu’aym

There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA), and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either.

Hani

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2014, 02:39:04 PM »

Quote
Even though Malik ibn Anas, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and Imam Shafi'i hated Abu Hanifa?


So what? Kho'i and Khomayni wiped the floor with eachother, you can still make Taqleed of whoever. Abu Hanifah was criticized for his new method and approach to Fiqh, but if you look at the Hanafi Madhab at the end of the day it is almost identical to the others.



Quote

Although, as far as Madhahib go, the school of Abu Hanifa is probably the best as long as you stay away with the Salafi-infused modern interpretations (like from Dar'ul Ulum Deoband).  Abu Hanifa was the most tolerant of all four and his authentic views are quite different from modern "Hanifi" scholars.  He allowed beer, for example.


Go to a Hanafi forum and tell them to explain his Fiqhi stance for you, he didn't just "Allow beer". There's a lot more detail than that.



Quote

There are problems with tashayyu`, sure.  But there are more problems with Sunniism, as far as I can see.  I'd be happy to tell you in private all the issues I have with tashayyu`, but I don't want to post them publicly.


Whatever you like, I'd be happy to see what problems you have.



Quote
Yeah, we rawafid make up stories that slander our own families just so we can one up some anonymous screen-name online.


You'd be surprised how often that happened.



Quote
There are no authentic reports that Muawiyah (RA) advocated the cursing of Ali (RA),


They threw a lot of verbal abuse against one another and harshly criticized one another. This in English means "Cursing", but absolutely no Takfeer was made.


Quote

and I doubt the reports suggesting Muawiyah (RA) poisioning Hassan (RA) are authentic either.


al-Hasan (ra) didn't even die from poison, he had health issues.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2014, 06:46:51 PM »
Brother Hani, are you sure?

I've come across scholars mention he passed away due to poisioning and refused to disclose who the culprit was before his death.

And, I get Ali (RA) and Muawiyah (RA) certainly exchanged a few verbals, but the whole idea of Muawiyah allowing cursing of Ali (RA) is all fabrications is it not? All the sources he provided are baseless.

Hani

Re: Life after Shia questions
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2014, 07:39:37 PM »


Quote
I've come across scholars mention he passed away due to poisioning and refused to disclose who the culprit was before his death.


Scholars believe that only because al-Hasan believed that he was poisoned, and he wasn't sure who the culprit was and that's the only reason he never disclosed the name. Based on how al-Hasan was describing his condition in several narrations, an expert medical source I read about in a book stated that what al-Hasan was suffering from was not "poisoning" rather he had a serious condition in his health. (Translating the man's words is very hard as it is all medical terminology.)


And so I have to go with what the medical expert says based on his diagnosis of al-Hasan's condition.


Quote
And, I get Ali (RA) and Muawiyah (RA) certainly exchanged a few verbals, but the whole idea of Muawiyah allowing cursing of Ali (RA) is all fabrications is it not? All the sources he provided are baseless.


As for him allowing or encouraging then evidence must be presented, if it's weak then that's that. Brother when people say "cursing" in English they mean verbal abuse, not the cursing which is in the sense of asking Allah to remove his mercy from him or what is known as "La`an".

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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