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Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat

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Ibn Yahya

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2015, 01:58:20 PM »
I think this guy is missing out the fact that Fatimah had been dead for decades by the time of 'Umar Ibn 'Abd al-'Aziz? Sometimes I feel they're not even trying to make a cohesive argument anymore

ibnemasood

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #121 on: March 13, 2016, 02:43:28 PM »
"Who really upset Fatimah - Abu Bakr or Ali radhi Allaho anhum ?"

How ironic that the hadeeth of the prophet sallallaho alaihe wasallam mentioned in Shia and sunni books,
"Fatimah is a part of me, who ever upsets her , upsets me ," was said by the prophet sallallaho alaihe wasallam not when Abu Bakr  upset Fatimah  but when it was infact Ali radhi Allaho anhum  who upset her. But Shias use it exclusively to condemn Abu Bakr r.a, totally overlooking the fact that it was really   Hazrat Ali r.a who upset Hazrat Fatimah not just once but according to Shia books at least on FOUR separate occasions while she was supposedly upset with Abu Bakr on ONLY ONE occasion and even that was because of NO fault of Abu Bakr. Those four occasions when Fatimah radhi Allaho anha  became upset with Hazrat Ali are:

1. When Hazrat Ali decided to marry the daughter of Abu Jahl and Hazrat Fatimah became aware, she took her children and went to the house of the prophet. The prophet sallallaho alaihe wasallam said,
" I won't make haraam what is halaal but the daughter of the prophet of Allah will not remain in the same house as the daughter of the enemy of Allah . If Ali wants to marry her , he will have to divorce  Fatimah first. Fatimah is a part of me who ever upsets her upsets me." When Hazrat Ali became aware of the prophet's disapproval, he abandoned the whole idea.
( jilaaul uyoon by Baqir Majlesi & illalush-shraai' by Qummi).

2. Once after praying fajar, the prophet sallallaho alaihe wasallam left the masjid hurriedly and anxiously and proceeded towards Fatimah radhi Allaho anha's house. She and Hazrat Ali had had an argument and were both upset. The prophet made them reconcile and left happily.
( Bihaarul anwaar by Majlesi vol 10)

3. Ja'far radhi Allaho anho,  the elder brother of Hazrat Ali on his return from Abysinnia gave  Hazrat Ali  a maidservant as a present. Hazrat Fatimah had been out and when she came back, she saw Hazrat Ali sitting with her head in his lap. On seing this, she became angry, left and went to the prophet's house. On this occasion again, the prophet intervened, Hazrat Ali sought forgiveness and the issue was settled.(jilaaul-uyoon & Bihaarul anwaar).

4. After the prophet passed away and Hazrat Fatimah came to Abu Bakr radhi Allaho anhuma  to request ownership of fadak, an orchard from which the prophet used to provide for his family, Abu Bakr radhi Allaho anho told her that he had heard from the prophet sallallaho alaihe wasallam that,
"Whatever the prophets leave behind is sadaqah". Hazrat Fatimah was disappointed and became angry with Hazrat Abu Bakr. She went home and according to Shia narration , she said to Hazrat ALI,
 "You used to be brave in battlefields and have now become a coward. When I am being rejected and refused my right , you have gone into hiding like a child in the womb." 
(Haqqul-yaqeen by Mullah Baqir majlesi).
Hazrat Fatimah radhi Allaho anha was upset with Abu Bakr radhi Allaho anho  because  allegedly he did not give her what she asked for. But this was all in line with the teachings of the prophet of Allah sallallaahu alayhi wasallam  and in any case happened only once and Hazrat Abu Bakr  did not do anything deliberately which should have upset Hazrat Fatimah . But according to Shia books She became upset with Hazrat Ali on at least four different occasions and with genuine reasons to be upset. So if shias curse  Hazrat Abu Bakr  for upsetting her, then where does that  leave Hazrat Ali ?

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #122 on: March 25, 2016, 04:27:48 AM »
Do Prophets not inherit according to Quran ?
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2016, 06:35:07 PM »
Do Prophets not inherit according to Quran ?
They do inherit immaterial possession. But not material possessions.

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2016, 04:56:03 AM »
Do Prophets not inherit according to Quran ?
They do inherit immaterial possession. But not material possessions.

Please bring forward a surah or aya that says that.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #125 on: April 12, 2016, 05:42:11 AM »
There is no verse which talks about a prophet's material inheritance being inherited by his children.

Ijtaba

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2016, 12:20:34 PM »
There is no verse which talks about a prophet's material inheritance being inherited by his children.

Verses which talks about a Prophet's material inheritance being inherited by his children.

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half.
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 11, translated by Yusufali

To (benefit) every one, We have appointed shares and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those, also, to whom your right hand was pledged, give their due portion. For truly Allah is witness to all things.
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 33, translated by Yusufali

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2016, 10:36:16 PM »


Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half.
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 11, translated by Yusufali

To (benefit) every one, We have appointed shares and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those, also, to whom your right hand was pledged, give their due portion. For truly Allah is witness to all things.
Al-Qur’an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 33, translated by Yusufali

First verse does not support your argument.

Second verse does not support your argument.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2016, 09:19:11 PM »
This was added to the Fadak article:

WHY DO THE SHIA FIND IT OBJECTIONABLE THAT PROPHETS HAVE AN EXCEPTIONAL RULING OF INHERITANCE?

The opponents will make it sound as if all regular rulings that apply to Muslims must apply to their Prophet (saw) as well. This is a faulty idea since prophets do not necessarily follow the same rulings as everybody else and the researcher will find that there are exceptions in how laws apply to them. For instance, they will ask: Why didn’t the Prophet (saw) offer inheritance like everyone else?
This question cannot be taken seriously since the Imams according to Shia narrations do not offer inheritance like everyone else.
We quote the following narration from Fatimah which can be found in the sixteen Usool and in al-Kafi with al-Majlisi’s authentication with these two chains:
عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي نَجْرَانَ عَنْ عَاصِمِ بْنِ حُمَيْدٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع‏
And
عَنْهُ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عُثْمَانَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ: قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع أَ لَا أُقْرِئُكَ وَصِيَّةَ فَاطِمَةَ ع قُلْتُ بَلَى قَالَ فَأَخْرَجَ إِلَيَّ صَحِيفَةً هَذَا مَا عَهِدَتْ فَاطِمَةُ بِنْتُ مُحَمَّدٍ ص فِي مَالِهَا إِلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع وَ إِنْ مَاتَ فَإِلَى الْحَسَنِ وَ إِنْ مَاتَ فَإِلَى الْحُسَيْنِ فَإِنْ مَاتَ الْحُسَيْنُ فَإِلَى الْأَكْبَرِ مِنْ وُلْدِي دُونَ وُلْدِك‏
[Aba `Abdillah (as) said: Would you like to read Fatimah’s (as) will? I said: Yes. He (as) brought it and began reading: “This is what Fatimah bint Muhammad (saw) willed concerning her possessions, she has passed them to `Ali ibn abi Talib (as), after he dies then it may pass to al-Hasan, after he dies it may pass to al-Husayn, if he dies then to the eldest of my own children, not yours etc…]
As the reader can see, the above has nothing to do with the laws of Islamic inheritance. This isn’t how regular Mulims inherit nor should all her money have went to her husband after her death as Allah did not allow it. In this case the Shia will claim that Ahlul-Bayt have an exceptional ruling therefore they must accept that the Prophet (saw) too had an exceptional ruling.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2016, 01:33:38 PM »
This was added to the Fadak article:

WHY DO THE SHIA FIND IT OBJECTIONABLE THAT PROPHETS HAVE AN EXCEPTIONAL RULING OF INHERITANCE?

The opponents will make it sound as if all regular rulings that apply to Muslims must apply to their Prophet (saw) as well. This is a faulty idea since prophets do not necessarily follow the same rulings as everybody else and the researcher will find that there are exceptions in how laws apply to them. For instance, they will ask: Why didn’t the Prophet (saw) offer inheritance like everyone else?
This question cannot be taken seriously since the Imams according to Shia narrations do not offer inheritance like everyone else.
We quote the following narration from Fatimah which can be found in the sixteen Usool and in al-Kafi with al-Majlisi’s authentication with these two chains:
عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي نَجْرَانَ عَنْ عَاصِمِ بْنِ حُمَيْدٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ع‏
And
عَنْهُ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عُثْمَانَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ: قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع أَ لَا أُقْرِئُكَ وَصِيَّةَ فَاطِمَةَ ع قُلْتُ بَلَى قَالَ فَأَخْرَجَ إِلَيَّ صَحِيفَةً هَذَا مَا عَهِدَتْ فَاطِمَةُ بِنْتُ مُحَمَّدٍ ص فِي مَالِهَا إِلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع وَ إِنْ مَاتَ فَإِلَى الْحَسَنِ وَ إِنْ مَاتَ فَإِلَى الْحُسَيْنِ فَإِنْ مَاتَ الْحُسَيْنُ فَإِلَى الْأَكْبَرِ مِنْ وُلْدِي دُونَ وُلْدِك‏
[Aba `Abdillah (as) said: Would you like to read Fatimah’s (as) will? I said: Yes. He (as) brought it and began reading: “This is what Fatimah bint Muhammad (saw) willed concerning her possessions, she has passed them to `Ali ibn abi Talib (as), after he dies then it may pass to al-Hasan, after he dies it may pass to al-Husayn, if he dies then to the eldest of my own children, not yours etc…]
As the reader can see, the above has nothing to do with the laws of Islamic inheritance. This isn’t how regular Mulims inherit nor should all her money have went to her husband after her death as Allah did not allow it. In this case the Shia will claim that Ahlul-Bayt have an exceptional ruling therefore they must accept that the Prophet (saw) too had an exceptional ruling.

Salaam.

Can you provide evidence for your claim? Correct me if I am mistaken, are you saying that the Rulings and Commandments given by ALLAH (SWT) to Muslims regarding Inheritance, Business Transactions, Marriage, Divorce, Adoption, Employment, Engaging in Battle, Converstaion etc are different from Prophets?

I only knew that they were three exceptions relating to Prophet (s) and these exceptions are mentioned in Al-Quran:

01. Prophet's (s) wives cannot marry any man after Prophet's (s) death as they are Mothers of Faithful.
02. Prophet (s) was allowed to marry more than 4 women at a single time.
03. Lowering voices before Prophet (s)

There could be more as I don't have much knowledge but my understanding is that All Rules that apply to Muslims also apply to Prophets (as) and if there are any exceptions then the exceptions would be highlighted in Al-Quran to avoid any disagreements as in the case of Inheritance.

*Just one question which is in my mind. If Imam Ali (a.s), Hadhrat Fatima (s.a), Hadhrat Abbas ibn Abdul Muttalib (a.s), Ummhat ul Momineen (r.a) knew that Prophet (s) did not leave any inheritance for them then why did they keep asking Caliphs of their time for Inheritance?

Were they so greedy for money that they did not care to take Sadqah? By doing so they were doing two wrong deeds:

01. Asking for something which did not belong to them - Prophet's (s) Property. (Prophet (s) Property becoming Sadqah for people and his (s) family having no share in Prophet's (s) property)
02. Taking something which was not allowed for them (i.e. Bani Hashim) - Sadqah.


« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 01:38:30 PM by Ijtaba »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2016, 02:47:47 PM »
Brother Ijtaba, I recommend you to take some time out and read this series of articles on this subject, all the questions you have raised, have been answered here:

The decisive word on Fadak and Inheritance of Prophet Muhammad(saw).

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/the-decisive-word-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophet-muhammadsaw/

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2016, 08:52:18 PM »
There's more bro Ijtaba, for instance prophets are to be buried exactly where they die, do you find this in the Qur'an? Nope.

However, there is no real need to list more than the ones you listed above to show that not all laws run exactly as they do for regular people as they do for prophets. No need as well for such matters to be listed in the Qur'an "to solve disagreements" since no one will disagree with the Prophet (saw) if he decides a matter except a hypocrite. Imagine people objecting to the Prophet's (saw) actions because they're not in the Qur'an, they would have objected to stoning adulterers then.

Can you tell me where is it highlighted in the Qur'an that Fatimah's wealth be transmitted to `Ali, then after to al-Hasan, then after to al-Husayn? Where's this in the Qur'an? That's a lot stranger than a prophet simply offering his wealth as charity, it's a new and foreign system of inheritance altogether.

As for your question about why they would ask for it, read the following sections here:

((Did `ali, al-`abbas and fatimah understand the hadith of the prophet (saw) as abu bakr did?))

((Why was fatimah angry?))

http://twelvershia.net/2014/05/08/fadak-prophetic-inheritance-qa/

So as you can see, from those who asked for inheritance are two groups: A group that didn't know they weren't supposed to inherit and a group who knew but didn't understand from it that the lands would be taken away from them and thought they could still be in control. As for the wives who sent `Uthman to Abu Bakr to ask for their share of the Fay', they weren't greedy since they never asked for anything after they heard the narration nor did they argue or object. The report says that from among the men `Ali, `Abbas, Zubayr, `Uthman, Ibn `Awf, Abu Bakr, `Umar and abu Hurayrah all heard the Hadith but it seems that `A'ishah and Juwayriyyah are the only two women who knew about it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2016, 10:45:44 AM »

There could be more as I don't have much knowledge but my understanding is that All Rules that apply to Muslims also apply to Prophets (as) and if there are any exceptions then the exceptions would be highlighted in Al-Quran to avoid any disagreements as in the case of Inheritance.
It is true that Allah(swt) has specified things which were exclusive to the Prophet(saw) in the Quran, but the remaining part of the truth is that, Allah(swt) didn’t mention everything that was exclusive to the Prophet(saw) in Quran. There were things which were exclusive to Prophet(saw) which were mentioned in ahadeeth. The simple example to prove the incorrectness of Shia claim is; the things which were made prohibited on the Muslims to consume, Allah(swt) did specify some of the things regarding this in Quran, but not everything was specified, and the other things which were made prohibited were reported in ahadeeth.

Some other rulings which were exclusive to the Prophet(saw) mentioned in ahadeeth:

(i). Unlike the Muslims, Prophet(saw) should be buried where he died.

Aishah(ra) narrated:”When the Messenger of Allah(saw) died, they disagreed over where to bury him. So Abu Bakr(ra) said: ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah(saw) saying something which I have not forgotten, he said: “Allah does not take (the life of ) a Prophet except at the location in which He wants him to be buried.'” So they buried him at the spot of his bed.”( Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1018, Grading: Sahih).

Similarly we read in Shia hadeeth:

Ali (a.s.) said, “He(saw) had said that he must be buried in the place where he died.( Al-Kafi).

(ii). Unlike the Muslims, the funeral prayer of Prophet(saw) was not lead by any Imam.

We read in Shia hadeeth from Al-Kafi:

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hammad from al- Halabi from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. “Al-‘Abbass came to Amir al- Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and said, “O Ali, people have come in a group to bury the Messenger of Allah in Baqi’, the prayer place. Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) then came out to the people and said, “O people, the Messenger of Allah is the Imam whether dead or living. He had said that he must be buried in the place where he died. He then stood at the door and prayed for him. Then he commanded every ten people to come in and pray for him and come out”.( Al Kafi, vol 4, part 3 Ch. 111, h# 36).

(iii). Prophet is given choice to die or survive before his soul is taken.

Narrated ‘Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) When Allah’s Apostle was in good health, he used to say, “No prophet’s soul is ever captured unless he is shown his place in Paradise and given the option (to die or survive).” So when the death of the Prophet approached and his head was on my thigh, he became unconscious for a while and then he came to his senses and fixed his eyes on the ceiling and said, “O Allah (with) the highest companions.” (See Qur’an 4:69). I said’ “Hence he is not going to choose us.” And I came to know that it was the application of the narration which he (the Prophet) used to narrate to us. And that was the last statement of the Prophet (before his death) i.e., “O Allah! With the highest companions.” (Sahih Bukhari, Vol 8, Book 76, Number 516).

(iv). Prophet(saw) and his close relatives are prohibited from accepting charity.

Note: Point worthy to note is that, most of these exclusive rulings for Prophet(saw) mentioned in ahadeeth were regarding the scenarios that would occur near or after the death of Prophet(saw), similar to Prophet(saw) not leaving behind inheritance.

Now, if Shiapen wants to reject Sunni view that certain exception for Prophet(saw) were reported in ahadeeth, which we have proven quoting valid proofs, then we challenge Shiapen to provide one verse of Quran or authentic Sunni hadeeth, which says that, all the exceptions for Prophet(saw) were mentioned in Quran. If, they can’t then that proves the invalidity of their baseless claim.

Moreover, even the highly revered Shia scholars believed in some exclusive rulings for Prophets(as), Such as they were not allowed to practice Taqiyyah(dissimulation).

Esteemed Shia scholar al-Tusi in al-Tibyan 7/259-260 stated:

الطوسي كتابه التبيان 7/ 259 و260
“وعلى كل حال فلا يجوز على الانبياء القبائح ولايجوز ايضاً عليهم التعمية في الاخبار ولا التقية في اخبارهم لأنه يؤدي الى التشكيك في اخبارهم فلا يجوز ذلك عليهم على وجه”
“In any case it is not permissible for prophets to commit ugly acts, nor is it allowed for them to speak in a coded (unclear) way nor to use Taqqiyah because it would lead some to question their sayings, so it’s not allowed in any way.”

Esteemed Shia scholar al-Tabrasi in Tafseer Majma’a al-Bayan 7/97 states:

الطبرسي كتاب تفسير مجمع البيان 7/97
” فقد دلت الأدلة العقلية التي لاتحتمل التأويل على أن الانبياء لايجوز عليهم الكذب وان لم يقصدوا به غروراً ولاضرراً كما لايجوز عليهم التعمية في الاخبار ولا التقيّة لأن ذلك يؤدي الى التشكيك في أخبارهم
“Intellectual evidence that cannot be mis-interpreted shows us that it is not allowed for prophets to lie even if they do not mean any harm by it, also it is not allowed for them to speak in a coded (unclear) language nor is Taqqiyah allowed because it would cast doubt on their sayings.

Esteemed Shia scholar al-Majlisi in Bihar al-Anwar 28/400 stated:

المجلسي بحار الانوار ج28 ص400
(فأما الرسول (صلى الله عليه وآله) فانما لم تجز التقية عليه لان الشريعة لا تعرف إلا من جهته ولا يوصل إليها إلا بقوله )
“As for rassul-Allah SAWS, Taqqiyah is not permissible for him because the religious laws can only be known from him and cannot be reached except through his sayings.”

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/6-sunni-answers-to-shiapens-article-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophetsaw-chapter-six/

Quote
*Just one question which is in my mind. If Imam Ali (a.s), Hadhrat Fatima (s.a), Hadhrat Abbas ibn Abdul Muttalib (a.s), Ummhat ul Momineen (r.a) knew that Prophet (s) did not leave any inheritance for them then why did they keep asking Caliphs of their time for Inheritance?
Fatima(RA), Abbas(RA), Mothers of believers(RA) just asked ONCE for their inheritance. After they were informed, they stopped asking it. As for the second time Ali(RA) and Abbas(RA) approaching Umar(RA), then they asked to be the care takers of charitable endowments.

NaveenHussain

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2016, 08:32:17 PM »
Do Prophets not inherit according to Quran ?
They do inherit immaterial possession. But not material possessions.
Which immaterial possessions do they inherit?

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2016, 10:37:54 PM »
Do Prophets not inherit according to Quran ?
They do inherit immaterial possession. But not material possessions.

Which immaterial possessions do they inherit?

[Ahmad bin Idris, from Muhammad bin `Abdul-Jabbar, from Safwan bin Yahya, from Shu`ayb al-Haddad, from Durays al-Kanasi that he said: I was with abu `Abdillah (as) and with him was abu Basir, so abu `Abdullah (as) said: “Dawud inherited the knowledge of the prophets, and Sulayman inherited Dawud, and Muhammad (saw) inherited Sulayman, and we inherited Muhammad (saw), and we have the Mushaf of Ibrahim and the tablets of Musa…]
Source: al-Kafi by al-Kulayni, volume 1 page 225. al-Majlisi declared its authenticity in Mir’aat-ul-`Uqool 3/20.

[Some of our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from ibn Mahboub, from Hisham bin Salim, from Yazid al-Kanasi, he said: I asked abu `Abdillah (as) … Zakariyyah was Allah’s proof on the people, two years after `Isa’s silence, then he died so his son Yahya inherited his book and his wisdom while still young, have you not heard Allah’s words {O Yahya hold on to the book firmly, and we have granted him the judgement while still young}…]
Source: al-Kafi by al-Kulayni, volume 1 page 382. al-Majlisi declared its authenticity in Mir’aat-ul-`Uqool 4/246.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

NaveenHussain

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #135 on: May 10, 2016, 07:47:47 AM »
Do Prophets not inherit according to Quran ?
They do inherit immaterial possession. But not material possessions.

Which immaterial possessions do they inherit?
So, in other words, Fatimah (as) inherited knowledge from her father (saww)? If so, surely, she was correct in her arguments against Abu Bakr, in regards to Fadak.

[Ahmad bin Idris, from Muhammad bin `Abdul-Jabbar, from Safwan bin Yahya, from Shu`ayb al-Haddad, from Durays al-Kanasi that he said: I was with abu `Abdillah (as) and with him was abu Basir, so abu `Abdullah (as) said: “Dawud inherited the knowledge of the prophets, and Sulayman inherited Dawud, and Muhammad (saw) inherited Sulayman, and we inherited Muhammad (saw), and we have the Mushaf of Ibrahim and the tablets of Musa…]
Source: al-Kafi by al-Kulayni, volume 1 page 225. al-Majlisi declared its authenticity in Mir’aat-ul-`Uqool 3/20.

[Some of our companions, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin `Isa, from ibn Mahboub, from Hisham bin Salim, from Yazid al-Kanasi, he said: I asked abu `Abdillah (as) … Zakariyyah was Allah’s proof on the people, two years after `Isa’s silence, then he died so his son Yahya inherited his book and his wisdom while still young, have you not heard Allah’s words {O Yahya hold on to the book firmly, and we have granted him the judgement while still young}…]
Source: al-Kafi by al-Kulayni, volume 1 page 382. al-Majlisi declared its authenticity in Mir’aat-ul-`Uqool 4/246.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2016, 10:57:18 AM »
So, in other words, Fatimah (as) inherited knowledge from her father (saww)? If so, surely, she was correct in her arguments against Abu Bakr, in regards to Fadak.

No brother, you lack knowledge about your own hadeeth, as per your own Shia hadeeth, Fadak didn't belong to Fatima(AS), it belonged to the Leader after Prophet(SAWS). Hence Fatima(AS) was mistaken when he demanded Fadak as her inheritance. So, before making arguments try to learn your own hadeeths.

In Al-Kafi we read:

علي بن إبراهيه، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عنير، عن حفص بن البختري، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلاو قال:

الأىفال ما له يوجف عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، أو قوو صالحوا، أو قوو أعطوا بأيديهه، وكل أرض خربة

وبطون الأودية فهو لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وهو للاماو من بعده يضعه حيث يشاء

Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said:”Al-Anfal is such property for the acquisition of which no camels or horses are use and no armed expeditions are undertaken. It is the property that may come as a result of negotiated settlement or certain people would give with their own hands, may come from a barren land or from inside the valleys. Such properties belong to the Messenger of Allah and it will belong to the Imam(leader) after the the Messenger of Allah. The Imam(leader) will spend them as he may consider proper.”(Al Kafi, Chapter The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums, page 186).[Majlisi in Mirat al Uqul vol 6, page 255 graded it as Hasan(good)]

Esteemed Shia scholar Al-Kulayni(author of Al-Kafi) who is considered Thiqatul Islam by Shias, said:

وأما الانفال فليس هذه سبيلها كان للرسول عليه السلام خاصة وكانت فدك لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله خاصة، لانه صلى الله عليه وآله فتحها وأمير المؤمنين عليه السلام، لم يكن معهما أحد فزال عنها اسم الفئ ولزمها اسم الانفال وكذلك الآجام(2) والمعادن والبحار والمفاوز هي للامام خاصة

The case of al-Anfal is different. It belongs to the Messenger only. Of such properties was Fadak that belonged to the Messenger of Allah only. It is because he and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) conquered it and there no one else took part. The name al-Fay’ therefore does not apply to it. Al-Anfal applies to it. Similar to al-Anfal are such properties as the marshes, mines, oceans and the wilderness. They all belong to Imam(leader) exclusively.(Al-Kafi, Chapter 130, The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums).

Comment: Thus from Shia hadeeth we find that after Prophet(saw) the property given to Prophet, will belong to the successor of Prophet, the leader of Muslims. Since Abubakr(ra) became the Imam(Leader) after Prophet(saw), the property that was granted by Allah to Prophet(saw), became the property of the Leader(i.e Abubakr). And it was upon Abubakr(ra) to manage it in the best possible charitable activities.

NaveenHussain

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2016, 12:42:12 PM »
Quote
No brother, you lack knowledge about your own hadeeth, as per your own Shia hadeeth, Fadak didn't belong to Fatima(AS), it belonged to the Leader after Prophet(SAWS). Hence Fatima(AS) was mistaken when he demanded Fadak as her inheritance. So, before making arguments try to learn your own hadeeths.
Wrong. Please don't attempt at interpreting our ahadeeth. There are many other ahadeeth that mention Fadak was gifted to Fatimah (as) as per Allah's orders, which even some Sunni scholars have recorded in their own books. Fatimah (as) is a female, thus we address her as a "she," and not a "he." Fatimah (as) wasn't mistaken at all; the arguments go to show that Abu Bakr didn't have proper knowledge of Quraan.

Quote
In Al-Kafi we read:

علي بن إبراهيه، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عنير، عن حفص بن البختري، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلاو قال:

الأىفال ما له يوجف عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، أو قوو صالحوا، أو قوو أعطوا بأيديهه، وكل أرض خربة

وبطون الأودية فهو لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وهو للاماو من بعده يضعه حيث يشاء

Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) said:”Al-Anfal is such property for the acquisition of which no camels or horses are use and no armed expeditions are undertaken. It is the property that may come as a result of negotiated settlement or certain people would give with their own hands, may come from a barren land or from inside the valleys. Such properties belong to the Messenger of Allah and it will belong to the Imam(leader) after the the Messenger of Allah. The Imam(leader) will spend them as he may consider proper.”(Al Kafi, Chapter The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums, page 186).[Majlisi in Mirat al Uqul vol 6, page 255 graded it as Hasan(good)]

Esteemed Shia scholar Al-Kulayni(author of Al-Kafi) who is considered Thiqatul Islam by Shias, said:

وأما الانفال فليس هذه سبيلها كان للرسول عليه السلام خاصة وكانت فدك لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله خاصة، لانه صلى الله عليه وآله فتحها وأمير المؤمنين عليه السلام، لم يكن معهما أحد فزال عنها اسم الفئ ولزمها اسم الانفال وكذلك الآجام(2) والمعادن والبحار والمفاوز هي للامام خاصة

The case of al-Anfal is different. It belongs to the Messenger only. Of such properties was Fadak that belonged to the Messenger of Allah only. It is because he and Amir al-Mu’minin (a.s.) conquered it and there no one else took part. The name al-Fay’ therefore does not apply to it. Al-Anfal applies to it. Similar to al-Anfal are such properties as the marshes, mines, oceans and the wilderness. They all belong to Imam(leader) exclusively.(Al-Kafi, Chapter 130, The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums).

Yes, it belongs to the Infallibles (as). My understanding is that Imam Ali (as) would do with Fadak the same as would Rasool (saww) or Fatimah (as); they were as one, in terms of choosing Allah (swt) before anything else. Keep in mind that the Imam after Rasoolullah (saww) was Imam Ali (as), Fatimah's (as) husband.

Quote
Comment: Thus from Shia hadeeth we find that after Prophet(saw) the property given to Prophet, will belong to the successor of Prophet, the leader of Muslims. Since Abubakr(ra) became the Imam(Leader) after Prophet(saw), the property that was granted by Allah to Prophet(saw), became the property of the Leader(i.e Abubakr). And it was upon Abubakr(ra) to manage it in the best possible charitable activities.
Abu Bakr wasn't the leader of the Muslims, as he usurped the position from the rightful leader, Imam Ali (as). Imam Ali (as) and Fatimah (as) were way more knowledgeable than Abu Bakr; they knew what to do with Fadak, while Abu Bakr relied on his mis/disinformation, in order to steal Fadak, hence why it's said Abu Bakr eventually wrote-over to deed of Fadak to Fatimah (as), but Umar ripped the paper because of his own personal inclinations. This is only one reason why we consider them enemies of Ahlul Bayt (as).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 12:46:39 PM by NaveenHussain »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2016, 01:20:58 PM »
Quote
No brother, you lack knowledge about your own hadeeth, as per your own Shia hadeeth, Fadak didn't belong to Fatima(AS), it belonged to the Leader after Prophet(SAWS). Hence Fatima(AS) was mistaken when he demanded Fadak as her inheritance. So, before making arguments try to learn your own hadeeths.
Wrong. Please don't attempt at interpreting our ahadeeth. There are many other ahadeeth that mention Fadak was gifted to Fatimah (as) as per Allah's orders, which even some Sunni scholars have recorded in their own books. Fatimah (as) is a female, thus we address her as a "she," and not a "he." Fatimah (as) wasn't mistaken at all; the arguments go to show that Abu Bakr didn't have proper knowledge of Quraan.
Please don't make false accusations on me, its a failed trick of Rafidah. I'm not interpreting, rather I quoted you the words of your Imam and the explanation given by your Scholar Kulayni. So blame them for your humiliation not me.

And it was a typo, I meant "SHE", but I believe it was Qadr of Allah, to show the double standards of Rafidah, the claim you make that Fadak was gifted to Fatima(RA) on order of Allah(SWT), is a clear fabrication. Because the verse those reports mention after which Fadak was allegedly gifted to Fatima(RA), has a MASCULINE PRONOUN I.E HIS.  I hope you will accept that Allah(SWT) won't address Fatima(RA) with masculine pronoun(HIS), as you don't address her with the pronoun(HE).  Unless you wish to take a U-turn now.

Quote
Yes, it belongs to the Infallibles (as). My understanding is that Imam Ali (as) would do with Fadak the same as would Rasool (saww) or Fatimah (as); they were as one, in terms of choosing Allah (swt) before anything else. Keep in mind that the Imam after Rasoolullah (saww) was Imam Ali (as), Fatimah's (as) husband.
It doesn't say infallibles, it just says Imam(leader). So stop your desperate and failed misinterpretations.

And sorry no one cares of your non-sensical understanding. There is no mention of Fatima(RA) in this report, the Imam(leader) is mentioned as the SOLE owner of it. Unless you believe that Fatima(RA) is also an Imam now. But that would make you people Thirteeners not Twelvers.

Anyways, what these reports prove is that, Fadak DIDN'T BELONG TO FATIMA(RA), this is clear as a sun, in a cloudless day.

Quote
Abu Bakr wasn't the leader of the Muslims, as he usurped the position from the rightful leader, Imam Ali (as).
Ok, Abu Bakr was the leader of Momineen then (wink). And let me share you the thoughts of a Momin about Caliphate of Abu bakr(AS).

حَدَّثَنَا عُثْمَانُ بْنُ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ السَّبِيعِيُّ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا هِلالُ بْنُ الْعَلاءِ بْنِ هِلالٍ الْبَاهِلِيُّ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ الأَزْرَقُ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو سِنَانٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا الضَّحَّاكُ بْنُ مُزَاحِمٍ ، عَنِ النَّزَّالِ بْنِ سَبْرَةَ الْهِلالِيِّ ، قَالَ : وَافَقَنَا مِنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ذَاتَ يَوْمٍ طِيبُ بِشْرٍ وَمُزَاحٌ ، قُلْنَا لَهُ : يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ، حَدِّثْنَا عَنْ أَصْحَابِكَ . قَالَ : مَا كَانَ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَاحِبًا إِلا كَانَ لِي صَاحِبًا . قُلْنَا : حَدِّثْنَا عَنْ أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ . قَالَ : سَلُونِي . قُلْنَا : حَدِّثْنَا عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرٍ ، قَالَ : ” ذَلِكَ امْرُؤٌ سَمَّاهُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ صِدِّيقًا عَلَى لِسَانِ جِبْرِيلَ ، وَلِسَانِ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، كَانَ خَلِيفَةَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ عَلَى الصَّلاةِ ، رَضِيَهُ لِدِينِنَا فَرَضِينَاهُ لِدُنْيَانَا ” .

Uthman bin Ja’afar bin Muhammad bin Ismael al Subei’ee told us: Hilal bin al ‘Alaa bin Hilal al Bahili told us: my father told me: Ishaq al Azraq told us: Abu Sinan told us: al-Dahhaq bin Muzahim told us from al Nazzal bin Sabrah al Hilali: We were with Ali bin abi Talib (ra) one day and we told him: “O Ameer al Mumineen, tell us about your companions.” He said:”Every companion of the Prophet PBUH was also my companion.” They said: “then tell us about the companions of the Prophet PBUH” He said: “Ask me” we said: “Tell us about Abu bakr” He replied: ” That is a Man called al-Siddiq by Allah through Gabriel and Muhammad PBUH, He was the successor of the messenger of Allah in leading the prayer, He PBUH had accepted him for our religion so we accepted him for our life.“[al-Lalikaee made Takhreej for this in #2455, , Abu Nasr Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullah al-Imam said in the commentary: Isnaduhu Hasan.]

حدثنا أبو حفص عمر بن أيوب السقطي ، قال : حدثنا محمد بن معاوية بن مالج ، قال : حدثنا علي بن هاشم ، عن أبيه ، عن أبي الجحاف ، قال : قام أبو بكر رضي الله عنه بعدما بويع له وبايع له علي رضي الله عنه وأصحابه قام ثلاثا ، يقول : ” أيها الناس ، قد أقلتكم بيعتكم هل من كاره ؟ قال : فيقوم علي رضي الله عنه أوائل الناس يقول : ” لا والله لا نقيلك ، ولا نستقيلك قدمك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فمن ذا الذي يؤخرك ” .

[abu Hafs `Umar bin Ayyub al-Siqati told us, Muhammad bin Mu`awiyah bin Malaj said, `Ali bin Hisham told us, from his father, from abu al-Jahhaf that he said:
Abu Bakr (ra) stood up three times after he received Bay`ah from `Ali (ra) and his companions, saying: “O people, I shall return your Bay`ah to you, does anyone dislike this?” he said: So `Ali (ra) would stand among the first of them and say: “No by Allah we shall not let you retire, if the messenger of Allah (SAWS) placed you ahead (means leading Salat), then who can put you behind.”] ( al-Shari`ah lil-Aajurri (b.280 – d.360 AH).]

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Imam Ali (as) and Fatimah (as) were way more knowledgeable than Abu Bakr; they knew what to do with Fadak,
And ironically, Ali(AS) dealt with Fadak he same way Abu Bakr(AS) did, which gives a tight slap on the face of those who make false allegations on Abu bakr(AS).

When Ali(ra) became the Caliph he was approached about returning Fadak. Ali’s reply(ra) was:

إ ن الأمر لما وصل الأمر إلى علي ابن أبي طالب كلّم في رد فدك ، فقال : ” إني لأستحيي من الله أن أرد شيئاً منع منه أبو بكر وأمضاه عمر
“I am ashamed before Allah to overturn something that was prohibited by Abu Bakr and (same decision)continued by Umar.” (Ibn Abil Hadid, Sharh Nahj al-Balaghah, vol. 4 p. 130)

Infact, Ali(ra) followed the Sunnah of the first three righteous Caliphh.

كان أبو بكر يأخذ غلتها فيدفع إليهم منها ما يكفيهم ويقسم الباقي وكان عمر كذلك ثم عثمان ثم كان على كذلك
Abu Bakr would send the produce of Fadak to Ahlel bayt, as much was enough for them , and would distribute the rest (amongst the needy) , and same did Umar, and after him, Uthman, and after him Ali.
(Sharh nahjul balagha, Ibn Abil hadeed, Vol. 2 ,p. 292
It has also been recorded by :
Sharh nahjul balagha, ibn maitham, Vol. 5, p. 107
Durr al najafia, Sharh nahjul balagha, p. 332
Sharh Nahjul balagha, by Faizul Islam Ali Naqi, Vol. 5, p. 920).

Shaykh of shias al-Murtada in his book “ash-Shafi fil Imama” (4/92) brought this report:

ان الامر لما انتهى الى امير المؤمنين عليه السلام – اي علي رضي الله عنه – ترك فدك على ماكانت عليه – أي في عهد ابي بكر وعمر رضوان الله عليهما – ولم يجعلها ميراثا ولد فاطمة عليها السلام

When ruling passed to commander of faithful, alaihi salam  (meaning Ali), he left Fadak in the same place it was upon, and he didn’t make it inheritance to the children of Fatima. [“ash-Shafi fil Imama” (4/92)]

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2016, 02:23:13 PM »
Fatimah (as) wasn't mistaken at all; the arguments go to show that Abu Bakr didn't have proper knowledge of Quraan.

Since you are in the habit of misquoting our texts and participating in word-gymnastics, let me address this tidbit.  You claimed that Fatima [ra] was not mistaken.  Let us see her level of knowledge as per your own narrations.

"Ali inherited the knowledge of Allah’s messenger and Fatima inherited his property."  (Al-Kafi, Volume 7 page 86). [Allamah Majlisi declared it Hasan in Mirat al-Uqool, Volume 23 page 32].

Therefore - as per your own hadith - Fatima [ra] only inherited property, not knowledge.  So, it is possible that she was mistaken.

Let me put it to you in another way.  From the above narration, it is alleged that only Imam Ali [ra] inherited the knowledge of the Prophet [saw].  What did Imam Ali [ra] say in this matter?  He sided with the three [ra] before him.  What did Imam Ali [ra] do with Fadak (even when he was the Caliph and had all the power at his disposal)?  He did exactly what Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra] and Uthman [ra] did with Fadak.  Imam Ali [ra] never took Fadak for his family.

In conclusion, the one with knowledge did not think Fadak was his wife's inheritance.  In fact, he never reclaimed it when he had all the power.  To make matters worse, even Imam Hassan [ra] did not claim Fadak during his brief rule. 

So here is my question to you?  If you follow the Imams [ra], why don't you follow the example of Imam Ali [ra] and Imam Hassan [ra]?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 02:25:41 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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