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The story of Fadak!

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Hani

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2014, 02:00:18 AM »
Let's see here,


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this is just one side of the story and there is nothing there that is sufficient enough to prove it.


There seems to be quite a bunch of major Sahabah who confirmed hearing this, which is sufficient in my opinion.


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There is also a lot that explains the other side of the story which you absolutely and totally disregard.


I address the other side's arguments in my article, I didn't disregard them.



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But lets just look at the points. The Prophet (pbuh) is in his last days and nothing has been discussed a out inheritance.


Well since people did narrate hearing this and since the Prophet (saw) gave away all his wealth before he died, then it seems to me that the issue was addressed.



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Hazrath Fatimah (sa), Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Abbas (ra) and all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) either didn't have a clue or had to be reminded of such an important saying of the Prophet (pbuh).


Fatimah (as) appears to have not known, `Ali and `Abbas knew and confirmed it, the wives were reminded and they agreed.


Nobody claimed anyone was lying nor did they object.


Fatimah (as) got angry because she feared for the future of her children since Banu Hashim were not given auhtority(Caliphate) nor did they receive any lands or wealth, so she thought her family would suffer.


`Ali and `Abbas knew the Hadith but the disagreed with Abu Bakr on who gets to keep the lands under his control, they thought they were entitled to control it and benefit from it and offer its produce as charity. They also disagreed with him on the method of dividing the Khums.


The wives who were not named in the Hadith wished to ask for inheritance, when reminded they accepted and never asked for it.



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And this is not just about this Prophet (pbuh) but it is actually about the entire Prophecy and messengerhood


This is one Sunni opinion, another Sunni opinion states it's only about this Prophet (saw).



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Take a look at such an important and serious thing and there is absolutely nothing in the Quran about it.


It's not important nor serious and no one cares except the people directly involved.


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Hazrath Aisha (ra) was the most knowledgeable??? This is your claim and can you prove this to me???


This is well established, in fact several narrations state that even the men and the scholars among the companions consulted with her and took her opinions.


I turn the tables and ask, don't you find it strange that the man whom you claim stole these lands, he never benefited from them nor took possession of them nor did he give them to his family or children?



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2014, 03:28:28 PM »
Let's see here,


Quote
this is just one side of the story and there is nothing there that is sufficient enough to prove it.


There seems to be quite a bunch of major Sahabah who confirmed hearing this, which is sufficient in my opinion.


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There is also a lot that explains the other side of the story which you absolutely and totally disregard.


I address the other side's arguments in my article, I didn't disregard them.



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But lets just look at the points. The Prophet (pbuh) is in his last days and nothing has been discussed a out inheritance.


Well since people did narrate hearing this and since the Prophet (saw) gave away all his wealth before he died, then it seems to me that the issue was addressed.



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Hazrath Fatimah (sa), Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Abbas (ra) and all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) either didn't have a clue or had to be reminded of such an important saying of the Prophet (pbuh).


Fatimah (as) appears to have not known, `Ali and `Abbas knew and confirmed it, the wives were reminded and they agreed.


Nobody claimed anyone was lying nor did they object.


Fatimah (as) got angry because she feared for the future of her children since Banu Hashim were not given auhtority(Caliphate) nor did they receive any lands or wealth, so she thought her family would suffer.


`Ali and `Abbas knew the Hadith but the disagreed with Abu Bakr on who gets to keep the lands under his control, they thought they were entitled to control it and benefit from it and offer its produce as charity. They also disagreed with him on the method of dividing the Khums.


The wives who were not named in the Hadith wished to ask for inheritance, when reminded they accepted and never asked for it.



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And this is not just about this Prophet (pbuh) but it is actually about the entire Prophecy and messengerhood


This is one Sunni opinion, another Sunni opinion states it's only about this Prophet (saw).



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Take a look at such an important and serious thing and there is absolutely nothing in the Quran about it.


It's not important nor serious and no one cares except the people directly involved.


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Hazrath Aisha (ra) was the most knowledgeable??? This is your claim and can you prove this to me???


This is well established, in fact several narrations state that even the men and the scholars among the companions consulted with her and took her opinions.


I turn the tables and ask, don't you find it strange that the man whom you claim stole these lands, he never benefited from them nor took possession of them nor did he give them to his family or children?

Can you provide me with the names of these major Sahaba (raa) who heard and confirmed this?? With references please! Again the out siders heard it but the insiders did have a clue about it. They had to be reminded about it. This is against what comes natural and against reality and facts. This is not normal. My family is not aware of what I said but my friends and neighbours seem to know more about me. This is not only strange but also weird.

If this matter is not important, nor is it serious and no one cares about it then, why is it discussed at such a major level till this very day??? Why do you keep banging on about it??? Why the long articles??? What's all the fuss about then. You want proof from the Quran about this and that but you can't provide anything concerning this??? Matters of inheritance and other civil matters have been mentioned and discussed in the Quran but not this??????????

The popular narration goes with "we"not "I". This is about Prophets and Messengers, all of them, the entire lot. It's not just about the last (pbuh). Other Sunni opinion states that it's just about the Prophet (pbuh)???? Really??? Give me references on this please! The wives were reminded and never asked for it??? Well what do you expect??? The entire property has been seized and taken over, the claim has been rejected and turned down point blank and these people have power and authority to do as they please. So what do you expect???

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2014, 03:45:41 PM »
Correction brother Hani regarding my first reply just before this "the insiders didn't have a clue about it, instead of did". Typing error!

Hazrath Fatimah (sa) didn't know about it but Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) did and confirmed it??? Strange! Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) knew about it but didn't tell and remind Hazrath Fatimah about it. Wow, some strange stuff we have going on here. Sounds like a bunch of absolute strangers to me, who don't communicate and discuss things with each other.

Let me answer on the tables you've turned. I didn't say anything nor did I use any word as stole or deceive. Now what did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) do the the great income received from Fadak??? With references please and how did he run government and the state's affairs??? With references please.

Now let me ask you this, Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) and his deputy and close advisor Hazrath Umar (ra), they decided to run government, to run the Muslim state and its affairs. For this you need income/funds, now rather than looking for and generating means to do this, they decide to take the easy and simple route, lets grab and get hold of fadak to do this. Lets say this is what it was all about.

My question, Is this impossible??? Was this impossible??? Were they saints??? Were they not humans??? Is or was it absolutely impossible to expect anything like this from them??? What is your answer and why???

Hani

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2014, 02:26:32 AM »

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Can you provide me with the names of these major Sahaba (raa) who heard and confirmed this?? With references please!


If you refer to my earlier post, I did write names:


"This included `Abdul-Rahman, Sa`d, `Uthman, Talhah, Zubayr in addition to `Abbas and `Ali who confirmed the same matter, as well as the narrator `Umar. This was also reported in separate narrations by abu al-Darda', abu Hurayrah & Hudhayfah bin al-Yaman."


Refer to the long narrations of al-`Abbas and `Ali seeking `Umar's judgement on the Safaya of bani al-Nadeer in Bukhari/Muslim.


As for abu Hurayrah, abu al-Darda' and Hudhayfah, you'll find the narrations and sources in PART I of my research.


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This is not only strange but also weird.


strange and weird are synonyms.


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Strange! Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) knew about it but didn't tell and remind Hazrath Fatimah about it.



`Ali and `Abbas knew, they went to ask for whatever they could get whether it was Khums or control of Fay'. Fatimah wanted inheritance so either she wasn't told or she was told but she didn't accept it until she heard it from Abu Bakr's mouth and realized she wasn't actually getting anything.


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My family is not aware of what I said but my friends and neighbours seem to know more about me.


The scholars among the Sahabah are not just "friends and neighbors" they're much more than that.


As for Fatimah (as), there was no benefit in telling her in the first place since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided. Abu Bakr knowing makes a lot more sense as the Prophet (saw) knew he'd be in authority and he would be in charge of what he (saw) left behind.


She may also not have asked her father out of shyness as asking about such material possessions may be considered rude as if she is waiting for his death to take his money and she was not like this.


Matter of the fact, she didn't know but Abu Bakr knew.


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If this matter is not important, nor is it serious and no one cares about it then, why is it discussed at such a major level till this very day??? Why do you keep banging on about it???


We don't bang about it, the Imami Shia constantly bang about it because they use it to make Takfeer on Abu Bakr, if it weren't for Fadak, Fatimah (as) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu`.


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You want proof from the Quran about this and that but you can't provide anything concerning this??? Matters of inheritance and other civil matters have been mentioned and discussed in the Quran but not this?


What is mentioned in Allah's book is general inheritance as it involves all people and is a matter which concerns them. What prophets do with their material possessions concerns no one but prophets nor does it affect anyone's lives nor is it from Usoul.


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The popular narration goes with "we"not "I". This is about Prophets and Messengers, all of them, the entire lot.


This is what my research discusses but you never read anything so I won't bother explaining and references are mention therein (refer to Part I)


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Now what did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) do the the great income received from Fadak??? With references please and how did he run government and the state's affairs??? With references please.


Fadak was split between Rasul-Allah (saw) and the Jews, a part of it went to the Jews. Refer to this part of the "Q & A" to know what these lands were used for:


"WHAT WAS THE FAY’ OF THE JEWS IN MADINAH USED FOR? WHAT WAS THE FAY’ OF KHAYBAR USED FOR INCLUDING FADAK? WHAT WAS THE REST OF THE LAND OF KHAYBAR TAKEN BY FORCE USED FOR?"


As for Abu Bakr he followed the way of the Prophet (saw) generally concerning the lands, he specifically says in the narration that he won't change the way the Prophet (saw) used it and that Aal-Muhammad can eat from it.


Now here's a funny bit, when I said that you claim that Abu Bakr stole the lands, yet I asked how how come he never benefited from it nor gave it to his children, you replied:


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I didn't say anything nor did I use any word as stole or deceive.


Then in the same post you write:


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Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) and his deputy and close advisor Hazrath Umar (ra), they decided to run government, to run the Muslim state and its affairs. For this you need income/funds, now rather than looking for and generating means to do this, they decide to take the easy and simple route, lets grab and get hold of fadak to do this.


You just accused the guy of stealing right there, and also lying in religion.



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My question, Is this impossible??? Was this impossible??? Were they saints??? Were they not humans??? Is or was it absolutely impossible to expect anything like this from them??? What is your answer and why???


It was actually near impossible because Rasul-Allah (saw) promised Abu Bakr heaven in many narrations, and `Ali praised him in many narrations. How can he be given glad tidings of heaven if he's from the dwellers of hell and why would `Ali praise a thief?


I turn it against you and say, is it not more likely that Fatimah (as) just didn't know this information? Was she a divine being? Was she not human? Do humans not forget things and aren't they ignorant of a lot of things?


Or maybe you believe Fatimah is a godly being such as Khomayni does?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2014, 11:57:41 PM »
Ok brother Hani, you said

“Ali and Abbas knew”,

Are you telling me that they knew what the Prophet (pbuh) had said about inheritance concerning him but they disregarded it???If one would say something about this concerning Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) then, this results in “takfeer” according to you, but not when it comes to other companions, why???

You said,

“Fatimah wanted inheritance so either she wasn't told or she was told but she didn't accept it until she heard it from Abu Bakr's mouth and realized she wasn't actually getting anything”,

There are three points here:

1, Hazrath Fatimah (sa) is not aware of the issue and matter, and those who are strangers compared to her relationship with the Prophet (pbuh), was told about it and were made aware of such an important issue and matter. This goes against sense and logic and what is natural and common behaviour and practice.

you said,

“or she was told but she didn’t accept it”,

2, It depends what you mean here. If you mean that she was told by the Messenger (pbuh) but still didn’t accept it, if this is what you mean then, this should also result in takfeer according to your belief and faith. If something as such was said about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) that would result in takfeer then, I’m sure the same can and should apply about Hazrath Fatimah (sa).

you said,

 “until she heard it from Abu Bakr's mouth and realized she wasn't actually getting anything”,

3, well I praise Hazrath Fatimah (sa) and her stance and reaction towards this issue and matter. She could have easily challenged  this and taken matters further but she decided on patience and tolerance. If Hazrath Aisha (ra) took matters further and very much further with the fourth Khalif then, Hazrath Fatimah (sa) could have easily done the same with the first Khalif.

You said,

“As for Fatimah (as), there was no benefit in telling her in the first place since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided.”

Now this is the talk of the time of jahiliya. Is this how women are viewed and looked at in Islam about their rights??? If this is true what you have said and let me point it out again,

you said'

“since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided"

then could you prove this from the Quran and Sunnah please???

You said,

“Abu Bakr knowing makes a lot more sense as the Prophet (saw) knew he'd be in authority and he would be in charge of what he (saw) left behind”,

This is a different matter brother which I completely disagree with. The Prophet (pbuh) didn’t leave anything behind a part  from two things: 1, Holy Quran and  2, Ahlul Baith. He only left two things behind for the Ummah and the Ummah consists of the companions as well. The companions are the Ummah and are an important part of it. He told the Ummah to hold on to these two things and not to separate them. But we all know what happened after his death.

You said,
“She may also not have asked her father out of shyness as asking about such material possessions may be considered rude as if she is waiting for his death to take his money and she was not like this",

If she may not have asked then the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t say anything either??? Well she didn’t have to ask since inheritance is inheritance and everyone inherits. Now if it’s different when it comes to Prophets and Messengers or it was different concerning this Prophet (pbuh) then, this difference should have been put forward
and made clear. I go with sense and logic and you’re not making any sense at all.

You said,

“We don't bang about it, the Imami Shia constantly bang about it because they use it to make Takfeer on Abu Bakr, if it weren't for Fadak, Fatimah (as) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu",

The Imamia Shia just put their thought, opinion and point of view forward just like you do,

and you said,

“they use it to make TAKFEER ON ABU BAKAR”,

Excuse me??? How can you make TAkFEER ON ABU BAKAR??? Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is not part of religion but a member of religion. “TAKFEER ON ABAU BAKAR “ this is exactly what extremism is all about.

You said,

“If it weren’t for Fadak, Fatimah (sa) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu”,

Absolute rubbish and utter nonsense! Don’t go about assuming and then accusing. This is all you seem to do. Read and learn about others rather than chasing your own assumptions.

You said,

“What is mentioned in Allah's book is general inheritance as it involves all people and is a matter which concerns them. What prophets do with their material possessions concerns no one but prophets nor does it affect anyone's lives nor is it from Usoul”,

What Prophets do is demonstrate the shariath they bring about through practical means in the form of actions because shariath also applies to them. And what ever they own belongs to their children and wives. If there is a separate law on this then it should have been in the Quran otherwise what is normal and comes natural through shariath applies.

You said,

“As for Abu Bakr he followed the way of the Prophet (saw) generally concerning the lands, he specifically says in the narration that he won't change the way the Prophet (saw) used it and that Aal-Muhammad can eat from it",

Did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) follow the way of the Prophet (pbuh) or did he make a few changes according to his understanding, we shall discuss this Insha’allah. But Aal e Muhammad (pbuh) can’t inherit but can have a share of the income generated from it??? Can eat from it???

You said,

“You just accused the guy of stealing right  there, and also lying in religion",

If I accused the guy of stealing then stealing is wrong and is a sin but how does this make me a Kafir and how is this takfeer??? How have I lied in religion??? Since when did Hazrath Abu Baks (ra) become religion or part of religion??? This is extreme my friend and this is exactly what extremism is all about and where it comes from. Assuming that a companion is religion or part of religion is kufar itself.

You said,

“ Do humans not forget things and aren't they ignorant of a lot of things?",

Was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) not human too??? And can’t ignorance also apply to him??? Why is it that if anyone comes along and says and believes in something that goes against Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) but this applies to TAKFEER but when it comes to Hazrath Fatimah (sa) then, you seem to come back down to earth and you suddenly realise that she was human after all???

You said,

“Or maybe you believe Fatimah is a godly being such as Khomayni does?",

This is what you seem to believe about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra). Anything that goes against him results in TAKFEER and an ATTACK ON RELIGION!

Hani

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2014, 04:36:00 PM »
Reply,


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“Ali and Abbas knew”,


Are you telling me that they knew what the Prophet (pbuh) had said about inheritance concerning him but they disregarded it???If one would say something about this concerning Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) then, this results in “takfeer” according to you, but not when it comes to other companions, why???


No, they went to see whatever it is that they could get a hold of, whether Khums or lands of Fay' as is apparent from the texts, especially since they explicitly said they heard these words from the Prophet's (saw) mouth.


Unless you're accusing `Ali and `Abbas of being liars who claimed to hear the Prophet (saw) say something he never said so they may take Fatimah's (as) right and split it between them OR that they are disobedient greedy sinners who disregarded the Prophet's (saw) words to get their hands on the money.


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1, Hazrath Fatimah (sa) is not aware of the issue and matter, and those who are strangers compared to her relationship with the Prophet (pbuh), was told about it and were made aware of such an important issue and matter. This goes against sense and logic and what is natural and common behaviour and practice.


She never asked and she wasn't told, because dividing the inheritance is not her job rather it is up to the men and those in charge. Abu Bakr was the one in charge and he knew thus he explained things to her and also `Ali was her husband and he knew so he never returned Fadak to Fatimah's (as) children even after he became in charge nor did he claim it.


Women had no part in this...


I add, there's a lot of other things she never knew such as when Ahlul-Bayt wondered where they were going to bury the Prophet (saw), Abu Bakr was the one who informed them of the Hadith stating that prophets are buried wherever they die, they believed him and did just that.


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you said,


“or she was told but she didn’t accept it”,


2, It depends what you mean here. If you mean that she was told by the Messenger (pbuh) but still didn’t accept it, if this is what you mean then, this should also result in takfeer according to your belief and faith. If something as such was said about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) that would result in takfeer then, I’m sure the same can and should apply about Hazrath Fatimah (sa).


What's up with you guys and Takfeer? Is it a hobby?


No, I meant: Maybe she was told by her husband or a relative, but she was surprised and thought they misunderstood, then when she went to Abu Bakr he gave her the same answer.


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You said,


“As for Fatimah (as), there was no benefit in telling her in the first place since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided.”


Now this is the talk of the time of jahiliya. Is this how women are viewed and looked at in Islam about their rights??? If this is true what you have said and let me point it out again,


Women are also not required to give Bay`ah, they can't marry unless with permission of their Wali, and two women witnesses are equal to one man. If you don't like it go join atheistic feminist groups.


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you said'


“since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided"


then could you prove this from the Quran and Sunnah please???


In their society, the heads of the family who were men are in charge of all of this, not the women. Read about their society before you ask random question.



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You said,


“Abu Bakr knowing makes a lot more sense as the Prophet (saw) knew he'd be in authority and he would be in charge of what he (saw) left behind”,


This is a different matter brother which I completely disagree with. The Prophet (pbuh) didn’t leave anything behind a part  from two things: 1, Holy Quran and  2, Ahlul Baith. He only left two things behind for the Ummah and the Ummah consists of the companions as well. The companions are the Ummah and are an important part of it. He told the Ummah to hold on to these two things and not to separate them. But we all know what happened after his death.


Great, if he only left behind these two things (Qur'an & Ahlul-Bayt) then there was no land called "Fadak" which he left behind.


Problem solved.


(Note: Your highlighted statement is incorrect and this is not mentioned anywhere in any Hadith.)


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You said,
“She may also not have asked her father out of shyness as asking about such material possessions may be considered rude as if she is waiting for his death to take his money and she was not like this",


If she may not have asked then the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t say anything either??? Well she didn’t have to ask since inheritance is inheritance and everyone inherits. Now if it’s different when it comes to Prophets and Messengers or it was different concerning this Prophet (pbuh) then, this difference should have been put forward
and made clear. I go with sense and logic and you’re not making any sense at all.


There is no need to ask as laws of inheritance are generally written the Book of Allah. He (saw) also didn't find a need to tell her anything since he told other men who are in charge of her and they are the ones who divide the shares.


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and you said,


“they use it to make TAKFEER ON ABU BAKAR”,


Excuse me??? How can you make TAkFEER ON ABU BAKAR??? Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is not part of religion but a member of religion. “TAKFEER ON ABAU BAKAR “ this is exactly what extremism is all about.


Well then you're the only Shia on planet earth who doesn't consider Abu Bakr a Kafir. Try convincing your scholars and laypeople then come preach to us about tolerance and extremism.


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You said,


“If it weren’t for Fadak, Fatimah (sa) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu”,


Absolute rubbish and utter nonsense! Don’t go about assuming and then accusing. This is all you seem to do. Read and learn about others rather than chasing your own assumptions.


I'm sure as a Shia you'll agree that most of the time Shia mention Fatimah (as) is to talk about how she was oppressed and how they took Fadak away from her. Dude it's all over the Shia websites, it's almost impossible to find a biography of her not containing a huge part about Fadak.


Look at this Shia book about the fourteen infallible ones, it's called "The Fourteen Luminaries of Islam" by: Ahmad Ahmadi Birjandi and is found here.


Look at the section on Fatimah (as) in this book, it discusses five topics: Her parents, her life, her marriage, her sorrow and sadness and finally Fadak.


Section on her parents barely contains anything about her. Section on her life is only 4 very tiny paragraphs. Section on marriage is slightly bigger. Then the rest of the article which is 65%, is all about her sadness and grief and Fadak. In fact the biggest section is on Fadak and it alone is near 50% of the entire biography.


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“What is mentioned in Allah's book is general inheritance as it involves all people and is a matter which concerns them. What prophets do with their material possessions concerns no one but prophets nor does it affect anyone's lives nor is it from Usoul”,


What Prophets do is demonstrate the shariath they bring about through practical means in the form of actions because shariath also applies to them. And what ever they own belongs to their children and wives. If there is a separate law on this then it should have been in the Quran otherwise what is normal and comes natural through shariath applies.





Not necessarily, because all Muslims agree that Banu Hashim cannot receive Sadaqah, yet this is not in the Qur'an. This is even more important than inheritance because it affects us as well at least since we may give them Sadaqah by mistake.


The Prophet (saw) explained laws of inheritance and they are clear in the Qur'an, his did his job perfectly. What does it affect me if Prophets do not leave inheritance? It affects no one nor does it change anything in religion.


Unless you believe everything is in the Qur'an and there is absolutely nothing left in the Sunnah that isn't contained in the Qur'an.


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You said,


“As for Abu Bakr he followed the way of the Prophet (saw) generally concerning the lands, he specifically says in the narration that he won't change the way the Prophet (saw) used it and that Aal-Muhammad can eat from it",


Did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) follow the way of the Prophet (pbuh) or did he make a few changes according to his understanding, we shall discuss this Insha’allah. But Aal e Muhammad (pbuh) can’t inherit but can have a share of the income generated from it??? Can eat from it???


As long as he followed his way for the most part, no harm.


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You said,


“You just accused the guy of stealing right  there, and also lying in religion",


If I accused the guy of stealing then stealing is wrong and is a sin but how does this make me a Kafir and how is this takfeer??? How have I lied in religion??? Since when did Hazrath Abu Baks (ra) become religion or part of religion??? This is extreme my friend and this is exactly what extremism is all about and where it comes from. Assuming that a companion is religion or part of religion is kufar itself.


I didn't say you're a Kafir, I said you accused him of Kufr and lying in religion which leads a person to dwell in hellfire.


Quote
You said,


“ Do humans not forget things and aren't they ignorant of a lot of things?",


Was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) not human too??? And can’t ignorance also apply to him??? Why is it that if anyone comes along and says and believes in something that goes against Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) but this applies to TAKFEER but when it comes to Hazrath Fatimah (sa) then, you seem to come back down to earth and you suddenly realise that she was human after all???


Abu Bakr can make mistakes but he narrated a clear Hadith and everyone agreed with him. Fatimah (as) never narrated anything she was ignorant of the matter. It's unlikely that Abu Bakr had a dream and in his dream he heard this Hadith and woke up in the morning thinking the Prophet (saw) said this, then several other companions had the same dream and they were all mistaken but Fatimah (as) was correct.


It is much clearer and more logical if they knew what she did not know, end of story.


Quote
You said,


“Or maybe you believe Fatimah is a godly being such as Khomayni does?",


This is what you seem to believe about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra). Anything that goes against him results in TAKFEER and an ATTACK ON RELIGION!


Ah so you say we also believe Abu Bakr is godly?


I say: You're the one who believes Fatimah (as) is a goddess in human form.


Only one of us isn't saying the truth and there is a very simple way of finding out, so I challenge you in front of everyone to bring me one quotation from your own books regarding Fatimah (as) where she has committed a mistake or a sin.


In return I can give you a quotation from our books where I show you that Abu Bakr committed a mistake or sin.


The one who cannot bring forth this evidence is the untruthful one.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 04:56:11 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2014, 07:27:40 PM »
Ok brother Hani, you have challenged me in front of everyone. I am going to accept your challenge and put the rest on hold. But before I go ahead with it, answer me this,

What is the meaning of "Rijs" according to you???

Looking forward to your answer. Many thanks!

Hani

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2014, 08:54:59 PM »
Ok brother Hani, you have challenged me in front of everyone. I am going to accept your challenge and put the rest on hold. But before I go ahead with it, answer me this,

What is the meaning of "Rijs" according to you???

Looking forward to your answer. Many thanks!


I knew it, you couldn't provide a single evidence.


You couldn't accept that Fatimah (as) simply didn't know something, so we accused you of treating her like an all-knowing goddess who never makes a mistake.


You in turn turned the tables and said that it is we (Ahlul-Sunnah) who treat Abu Bakr like a god incapable of committing any sins or mistakes.


We challenged you by saying that we can provide evidence from our own sources that prove that Abu Bakr does commit mistakes/sins like any regular human thus he is not a "god" to us.


We also challenged you to prove your own innocence by showing us evidences from your own sources proving that you guys believe Fatimah (as) committed a mistake/sin.


You couldn't!


Do you know when this whole thing started? When you accused the Sahabah (ra) of usurping the land and stealing it from Fatimah (as), then you told me:


Quote
Was this impossible??? Were they not humans??? Is or was it absolutely impossible to expect anything like this from them??? What is your answer and why???


Then when we turned the tables on you and told you: "What if Fatimah (as) was ignorant of this matter? Is this impossible? Is she not human? Aren't humans ignorant of certain matters? Don't they forget? Or is she a goddess?"


You replied by simply repeating yourself and telling me:


Quote
Was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) not human too??? And can’t ignorance also apply to him??? ... but when it comes to Hazrath Fatimah (sa) then, you seem to come back down to earth and you suddenly realise that she was human after all???


I'm telling you, prove that you actually believe she was a human who was capable of making mistakes and sinning then use the above as your argument.


If your next post does not contain any evidence that she makes mistakes/sins, then it is you who is an extremist and it is you who believes that she is a godly creature. As for us we can provide evidence that Abu Bakr was indeed a regular human who makes mistakes and thus we're not the stubborn extremists.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2014, 09:39:33 PM »
I took on your challenge and I asked you a very simple question, which has very much to do with this challenge of yours. It seems to me that you're afraid of your own challenge. Would you mind answering the question so we can proceed with your challenge???

Or are you afraid that you've got a bit carried away by issuing a challenge. Having second thoughts, are we???

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2014, 09:52:57 PM »
Why don't you put forward what mistakes and or errors Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) made. Any sins he committed and faults that he had??? You issued the challenge, now bring forward what you have promised, then ask for a response. And if you don't get one then by all means jump up and down.

Everything that seems to go against Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) you brush aside. If someone accuses him of hypocrisy, deceiving, etc you see this as some kind of attack on religion. Since when did he or any other companion become part of religion??? Since when did Khalifatul Muslimeen become part of religion???

Why is it mandatory and or compulsory to believe in and accept Khalifatul Muslimeen??? Can't they put a foot wrong??? people do a lot to get in to power and once they have authority they seem untouchable and get up to all sorts. have an open mind about things.

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2014, 10:01:24 PM »
Brother Hani, I told you that you don't have a clue about Shiaism what so ever, otherwise you wouldn't have issued me such a challenge in the first place. Now are you going to put what you promised forward??? Or do we have a habit of saying without thinking, then realising and making a run for it and trying to put the blame on the opposition to make ourselves look good???

You've issued a challenge, now lets see if you're man enough to stick to it.

Hani

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2014, 10:34:14 PM »
I wrote in my post:


Quote
If your next post does not contain any evidence that she makes mistakes/sins, then it is you who is an extremist and it is you who believes that she is a godly creature. As for us we can provide evidence that Abu Bakr was indeed a regular human who makes mistakes and thus we're not the stubborn extremists.


Your following post did not contain the evidence:


Quote
I took on your challenge and I asked you a very simple question, which has very much to do with this challenge of yours. It seems to me that you're afraid of your own challenge. Would you mind answering the question so we can proceed with your challenge???


Or are you afraid that you've got a bit carried away by issuing a challenge. Having second thoughts, are we???


Thus you fail.


Is it that hard to post it? Or do you need lengthy introductions and large paragraphs in order to provide one narration from your sources which declares that a person made a mistake/sin at one point?


If you believe in her divinity and godliness, just say so and don't waste my time as I can't debate which of the two individuals was correct and who was at fault if your highness believes that one of the two is a deity incapable of errors or forgetfulness.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2014, 10:41:19 PM »
Are you so afraid of the challenge you've issued??? Did you issue a challenge and then start to think about it??? Or did you think about it then issued it??? Do you believe that "Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) made mistakes and errors, had sinned in his life and also had faults"??? Do you believe in this??? If not than you do believe he was a saint???

Ameen

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2014, 10:44:58 PM »
What is the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah belief on this??? You issued a challenge, you didn't proceed on it and you believe that I failed. In what??? Are you man enough to bring forward what you claim??? Or are we having regrets now???

Hani

Re: The story of Fadak!
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2014, 10:51:40 PM »
Done playing? people can read and know who isn't "man enough" to bring anything forward.


This thread is locked until you send me a private message in which you write the evidence I asked regarding Fatimah's (as) sin/mistake from Shia sources, and if you do I promise to provide a text about Abu Bakr.


Then I'l reopen this thread and post what you sent me. Take your time.







« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:53:36 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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