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Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?

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abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2019, 09:16:53 AM »
When its question that, why was the initial position chosen, and then referred the other, it means the former was incorrect. That's pure common sense.

What I'm saying is that by that logic every inspired movement of the Prophet (S) becomes a correction of a mistaken prior position. Refer back to my point about Surat al-Muzammil.

As for the other points in my post, fair to assume we're agreement? I.e. any action not corrected by Allah (swt) for us to learn from, is to be assumed perfect so that is words, actions and silence are able to be deemed as hujjah.
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2019, 09:38:06 AM »
If you disagree, I'd be curious to understand your view on:

"so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2)

Does it mean he used to sin, but Allah (S) made him above the law with a license to sin as the literal reading goes? And by your logic of to be guided must imply a previous state of misguidance, is Allah (swt) saying the Prophet was not on the straight path already despite having declared his Prophethood, if yes then what happens to his Sunnah before the revelation of this verse and when when was he established on the straight path?

Alternatively, I'm happy to explain my understanding of the verse from the stance of the Prophet's (S) absolute infallibility save that which Allah (swt) decrees otherwise, so that we may learn.
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2019, 10:44:37 AM »
What I'm saying is that by that logic every inspired movement of the Prophet (S) becomes a correction of a mistaken prior position. Refer back to my point about Surat al-Muzammil.
Which positioned was Questioned by Allah there ? That why did Prophet(s) do that.


As for the other points in my post, fair to assume we're agreement? I.e. any action not corrected by Allah (swt) for us to learn from, is to be assumed perfect so that is words, actions and silence are able to be deemed as hujjah.
I chose not to waste time.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2019, 11:21:26 AM »
Which positioned was Questioned by Allah there ? That why did Prophet(s) do that.

The position that he chose his aqlaq over his rights, neither are a mistake just one better than the other.

Quote
I chose not to waste time.

Sounds like you chose to save face. I doubt you consider attempting to comprehend the word of Allah (swt) a waste of time.

A man has two choices when he doesn't have an answer to something, he can either re-assess his belief and choose to to be of those "who, when reminded of the revelations of their Lord, do not try to ignore them as though deaf and blind. Rather, they try to understand and think about them." (25:73) OR he can be of the ones who are "... deaf, dumb and blind, so they do not understand" (2:171)

So i'll reiterate the question, how do you understand "so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2) with regards to 'ismah?

The path is yours to choose.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:25:00 AM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2019, 11:59:29 AM »
The position that he chose his aqlaq over his rights, neither are a mistake just one better than the other.


That doesn’t answer my question. Re-read what I asked you to show me. Then point me out that thing in the verse you referred.

Actually, when an issue can be solved with one example, it’s futile to waste time after multiple arguments.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2019, 01:01:18 PM »
That doesn’t answer my question. Re-read what I asked you to show me. Then point me out that thing in the verse you referred.

Actually, when an issue can be solved with one example, it’s futile to waste time after multiple arguments.

You asked me: Which position was questioned by allah here and why did the prophet do that - if I understand correctly.

My answer was (and I'll expand on it now):

The position that he chose was his aqlaq (not eating honey as Hafsa said she disliked how he smelled) over his rights (to eat honey anyway as Allah (swt) didn't make it haram and didn't care if Hafsa had a problem with it) - had this not happened, we would not have known that Allah (swt) prefers for us to exercise our rights over foregoing them out of politeness.

If this wasn't the case then Allah (swt) would have revealed such a verse for every incident where the prophet abstained from that which was halal and there would be no such thing as makruh.

For example:

It was narrated from Khalid bin Al-Walid that:
A grilled mastigure was brought to the Messenger of Allah and was placed near to him. He reached out his hand to eat it, and someone who was present said: "O Messenger of Allah, it is the meat of a mastigure." He withdrew his hand and Khalid bin Al-Walid said to him: "O Messenger of Allah, is mastigure Haram?" He said: "No, but it is not found in the land of my people, and I find it distasteful." He said: "Then Khalid bent over the mastigure and ate some of it, and the Messenger of Allah was looking at him."
Sunan an-Nasa'i 4316

From this we understand that it wasn't a "mistake" on his part but opportunity by the will of Allah (swt) so that he can guide our sense of morality through the example of the prophet. For instance, if you wish to take a second wife and your current wife has a problem with, you could cite her this verse (although I doubt she'll want to comply!)

I hope I've answered your question in satisfactory detail.

Now it's your turn, i'll reiterate the question, how do you understand "so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2) with regards to 'ismah?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 01:12:10 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2019, 01:39:52 PM »
You asked me: Which position was questioned by allah here and why did the prophet do that - if I understand correctly.
As it’s going on in this thread from the beginning, you haven’t understood my point. I’m asking you that which position was QUESTIONED in Surah al-Muzammil?

I said : When its question that, why was the initial position chosen, and then referred the other, it means the former was incorrect. That's pure common sense.

Then YOU replied: What I'm saying is that by that logic every inspired movement of the Prophet (S) becomes a correction of a mistaken prior position. Refer back to my point about Surat al-Muzammil.

Then I replied: Which positioned was Questioned by Allah there ? That why did Prophet(s) do that.

Hence, I’m if you read in context you’ll see that I’m asking you about the example you used to counter my example. That’s surah Muzammil. So please answer accordingly.

So you can just see, how much effort it takes to make you understand one single point. I hope people understand that why I prefer not to waste time answering your lengthy arguments.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2019, 02:46:09 PM »
As it’s going on in this thread from the beginning, you haven’t understood my point. I’m asking you that which position was QUESTIONED in Surah al-Muzammil?

I said : When its question that, why was the initial position chosen, and then referred the other, it means the former was incorrect. That's pure common sense.

Then YOU replied: What I'm saying is that by that logic every inspired movement of the Prophet (S) becomes a correction of a mistaken prior position. Refer back to my point about Surat al-Muzammil.

Then I replied: Which positioned was Questioned by Allah there ? That why did Prophet(s) do that.

Hence, I’m if you read in context you’ll see that I’m asking you about the example you used to counter my example. That’s surah Muzammil. So please answer accordingly.

The Prophet (S) had lying down wrapped himself in a blanket, feeling dejected and sad (position 1) that people were calling him names. Allah called out to him "O you wrapped up in your raiment", and ordered him to observe the night vigil, to perform the prayer instead (position 2).

I compared this with:

The Prophet (S) felt so bad when Hafsa said to him he smells of maghafir that he decided he wont eat honey at Zaynab's house (position 1). Allah asked him why he refrains from that which Allah has made permissible to him, which prompted him to not refrain from it (position 2)

The reason I was confused about what you were asking is that it I thought this was clear to you when I first made the comparison. Apologies if I didn't explain in enough detail.

And that was my point with regards to the Prophet (S) doing something and then Allah (swt) sending down a revelation for him to do something else, does not show a flaw in his person but rather shows that Allah (swt) wanted to teach us through his example.

Quote
So you can just see, how much effort it takes to make you understand one single point. I hope people understand that why I prefer not to waste time answering your lengthy arguments.

There's no lengthy argument here, just a simple question, how do you understand "so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2) with regards to 'ismah?

The reason I'm asking this as this verse, if taken literally, seems to be a lot stronger evidence of his personal transgressions than the one you cited as it acknowledges his "thanb" the arabic word for sin, not only from the past but also in the future. So please explain to me what you understand from this as it will help me illustrate the implications of the differences in our theological stances.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 02:54:46 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2019, 03:58:37 PM »
The Prophet (S) had lying down wrapped himself in a blanket, feeling dejected and sad (position 1) that people were calling him names. Allah called out to him "O you wrapped up in your raiment", and ordered him to observe the night vigil, to perform the prayer instead (position 2).
Where does the verse shows Allah QUESTIONING Prophet(saws) that he did such a thing. Commanding something to do(as in al-Muzammil) is different than asking question that why was certain thing was done(al-Tahreem). It’s a form of negation. So, either show that from Quran, without your personal theories. Otherwise admit that you used a wrong example.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2019, 04:15:01 PM »
Where does the verse shows Allah QUESTIONING Prophet(saws) that he did such a thing. Commanding something to do(as in al-Muzammil) is different than asking question that why was certain thing was done(al-Tahreem). It’s a form of negation. So, either show that from Quran, without your personal theories. Otherwise admit that you used a wrong example.

For the sake of argument, even if I agree with you that al muzammil is not the best example, do you mean to say that every time Allah (swt) questions the Prophet (S) in the quran its because of flaws in his personality? Surely, you've read the Quran to know thats not remotely true. I'm happy to cite several other examples, if you like.

But instead I gave you a smoking gun to use against the notion of absolute 'ismah of the Prophet (S), a verse which if taken literally would be Allah's (swt) acknowledgement of the Prophet's (S) sins / personal transgressions, past and future. And you're ignoring my question regarding this just as you were ignoring my question regarding the context of Surat Tahrim because it implicated personalities greatly revered namely 'Aisha and Hafsa.

This does not show a great degree of honesty or a willingness to examine dogmas in search of truth.

So I ask you again, how do you, as per your theological dispositions, understand "so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2) with regards to the Prophet's 'ismah?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 04:18:15 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2019, 05:04:19 PM »
For the sake of argument, even if I agree with you that al muzammil is not the best example
That’s why I was saying that it’s waste of time to argue with you, you don’t even understand what you are bringing up to counter the argument. You can’t even see its irrelevance.

do you mean to say that every time Allah (swt) questions the Prophet (S) in the quran its because of flaws in his personality? Surely, you've read the Quran to know thats not remotely true.
The question there was in a form of negation of the act, it’s istifham inkaari. And there is even Qareena present there in the verse which proves my point, the verse even says Allah is forgiving. Now don’t jump to questioning that does every time Allah says He is forgiving does it mean Prophet(s) did mistake. I will say that’s your poor understanding. Because not every example would be relevant having negation over an action of Prophet(s) where he was questioned for that action, then with a Qareena. And if it’s there then it would be an example of his mistake.

Tell me do you believe that the oath which Prophet(s) took in Surah tahreem was is correct or not ?


I'm happy to cite several other examples, if you like.
Do you think I don’t have examples?

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2019, 06:02:17 PM »
That’s why I was saying that it’s waste of time to argue with you, you don’t even understand what you are bringing up to counter the argument. You can’t even see its irrelevance.
The question there was in a form of negation of the act, it’s istifham inkaari. And there is even Qareena present there in the verse which proves my point, the verse even says Allah is forgiving. Now don’t jump to questioning that does every time Allah says He is forgiving does it mean Prophet(s) did mistake. I will say that’s your poor understanding. Because not every example would be relevant having negation over an action of Prophet(s) where he was questioned for that action, then with a Qareena. And if it’s there then it would be an example of his mistake.

Tell me do you believe that the oath which Prophet(s) took in Surah tahreem was is correct or not ?

Do you think I don’t have examples?

Taking oaths as to refraining from certain acts does not entail any disobedience. Thus, the clause "why do you forbid" does not reflect censure, but it indicates compassion. It's like saying "why don't you take advantage of the wifi? I've already given you the password". Besides, you keep coming back to this example and completely ignoring my attempts to take your concept of 'ismah of Nabi to its logical conclusion:

For the nth time, how do you, as per your theological dispositions, understand "so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2) with regards to the Prophet's 'ismah?

If you'd rather not answer the question above, I understand, but at least say so.
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2019, 07:12:41 PM »
Taking oaths as to refraining from certain acts does not entail any disobedience. Thus, the clause "why do you forbid" does not reflect censure, but it indicates compassion.
You are assuming things up and bringing them in, as if  I said those. Why? Do you feel that if you won’t do that, your perspective would look weak?  I never said it entails DISOBEDIENCE. An ijtihadi error doesn’t necessarily entail disobedience, that’s where you again proved your incompetence in understanding this issue. The clause “why do you forbid” reflects disapproval.

It's like saying "why don't you take advantage of the wifi? I've already given you the password".
No it’s not like that,  you again chose a wrong example. Here the clause reflects encouragement. The correct, example would be, “O Abū Muhammad why did you use the WiFi”... it reflects my disapproval.

And don’t forget the my example is even backed by the Qareena of Allah saying He is forgiving. Which shows the correctness of your view.

Besides, you keep coming back to this example and completely ignoring my attempts to take your concept of 'ismah of Nabi to its logical conclusion:

For the nth time, how do you, as per your theological dispositions, understand "so that God may forgive you your past and future sins, complete His grace upon you, guide you to a straight path," (48:2) with regards to the Prophet's 'ismah?

If you'd rather not answer the question above, I understand, but at least say so.
I’m not answering it because we both agree that Prophet(saws) are free of sins , and the difference was regarding mistake/fault. Hence what response you have for this one, take the same as mine. Moreover , some translators translated it as past and future faults too.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2019, 01:13:49 PM »
You are assuming things up and bringing them in, as if  I said those. Why? Do you feel that if you won’t do that, your perspective would look weak?  I never said it entails DISOBEDIENCE. An ijtihadi error doesn’t necessarily entail disobedience, that’s where you again proved your incompetence in understanding this issue. The clause “why do you forbid” reflects disapproval.
No it’s not like that,  you again chose a wrong example. Here the clause reflects encouragement. The correct, example would be, “O Abū Muhammad why did you use the WiFi”... it reflects my disapproval.

And don’t forget the my example is even backed by the Qareena of Allah saying He is forgiving. Which shows the correctness of your view.
I’m not answering it because we both agree that Prophet(saws) are free of sins , and the difference was regarding mistake/fault. Hence what response you have for this one, take the same as mine. Moreover , some translators translated it as past and future faults too.

So the crux of the matter is whether an ijtihadi error is compatible with the role and the nature of the seal of the Prophets (sawas) in Islam.

Allow me to present my rationale from Quran, Sunnah, 'Aql, for the belief that Prophet Muhammad (sawas), even-though human, he was protected from ijtihadi errors and the shubahat that cause them. I would like you to address the proofs I've provided from each category unless we are in agreement.

From `Aql:

If the Prophet's words, actions or silence were susceptible to error in ijtihad, then this causes ibtal us sunnah. And consequently all ijtihad of all ulama becomes meaningless; as one of the two major sources for ijtihad, the prophet's words words, actions and silence are themselves susceptible to error.

From the Quran:

Because we both agree that the Prophet (sawas) was free from sin, we also agree that "Liyaghfira laka Allahu mataqaddama min thanbika wama taakhkhara wayutimmaniAAmatahu AAalayka wayahdiyaka siratan mustaqeema" (48:2) is to be understood in the light of "So be patient for the decision of your Lord and do not obey (wala tuti’a) from among them a sinner or ungrateful [disbeliever]. (76:24)" so the word "thanb" is taken to mean something other than sin, even-though the word "khata", the more apparent term for a fault, is not used.

Looking deeper we find that the word thanb is from the verb- form thanaba which means “to follow”; its noun form thanab means “tail; something that follows”. So the main idea in the word thanb is the concept of something following the other. “Sin” is known as ”thanb” because it is an act that entails evil consequence in form of Allah's displeasure and punishment.

The word ghafara actually means “to cover or conceal something” which also implies the meaning of protecting something. This word is used in its original meaning in our hadith literature. For example, a hadith say “Ghaffir ash -shayb bi 'l-khidhab” which means “Cover the white hair by dyeing” or “Conceal the old age by dyeing.” “Forgiving” is known as ”ghafara” because by forgiving, Allah covers the evil consequence of sins, and protects the sinner from it.

With the literal meanings of the two crucial words in the verse: thanb and yaghfira, the entire passage under discussion becomes more meaningful and relevant to the Treaty of Hudaybiyya (when these verses were revealed). The verses would now read as follows:

Verily We granted thee [in the Treaty of Hudaybiyya] a manifest victory; so that God may protect you from the past and future consequences of your [policy with the Meccans].

This understanding emerges not only from the lexical and historical context of the verse, but also from looking at 48:2 not just in the light of 76:24 but also in the light of "qad jaakummina Allahi noorun wakitabun mubeen" (5:15).

Imam Ibn al-Jawzi: The meaning of Nur is: The Prophet Muhammad (Peace upon him) [Z'ad al Maseer fil Ilm at-Tafseer Under the verse 5:15]

(Imam Qurtubi) and Mawardi (al-Nukat wa al-‘uyun, 2.22) mention that interpreting Nur as "Muhammad" (Allah bless him and give him peace) was also the position by [the Imam of Arabic grammar Ibrahim ibn Muhammad] al-Zajjaj (d. 311/923). [Ahkam al-Qur’an , 6.118]

So even-though, to Allah (swt) there is no distinction between the prophets in that none of them are anything but his servants (3:84), in the creation, the seal of the Prophets is unique. He is human, susceptible to emotion, hunger, pain and death "Surely, I am but a human being like you..." 18:110 but he is also noor "There has come to you from Allah a light and an evident Book." (5:15) not susceptible to zulamaat, shubahat and consequent errors in judgement.

And therefore the understanding of the first verse of at-Tahrim is that his human side, out of aqlaq, would have abstained from that which was halal but the light within him prevented that from happening, in this case, in the form of a verse.

From Sunnah:

Narrated Abu Hurairah:
"They said: 'O Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)! When was the Prophethood established for you?' He said: 'While Adam was between (being) soul and body.'"
Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Book 49, Hadith 3968
Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

Mankind, and thereby the human Muhammad (sawas) had not even attained creation while the noor within him was already a Prophet. Whom he made a warner "Tabaraka allathee nazzalaalfurqana AAala AAabdihi liyakoona lil AAalameena natheera"(25:1) and a mercy (Wama arsalnaka illa rahmatanlil AAalameen) to all that which Allah (swt) is the lord and sustainer "Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen". And the only creation whom Allah (swt) called by his own names: "Laqad jaakum rasoolun min anfusikumAAazeezun AAalayhi ma AAanittum hareesunAAalaykum bilmu/mineena raoofun raheem" (9:128)

It is through this light that Allah (swt) granted him the vision of that which was hidden from his human eyes:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Do you consider or see that my face is towards the Qibla? By Allah, neither your submissiveness nor your bowing is hidden from me, surely I see you from my back."
Sahih al-Bukhari 418

And made his saliva shifa:

Sahl b. Sa'd reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said on the Day of Khaibar:
I would certainly give this standard to a person at whose hand Allah would grant victory and who loves Allah and His Messenger and Allah and His Messenger love him also. The people spent the night thinking as to whom it would be given. When it was morning the people hastened to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) all of them hoping that that would be given to him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Where is 'Ali b. Abu Talib? They said: Allah's Messenger, his eyes are sore. He then sent for him and he was brought and Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) applied saliva to his eyes and invoked blessings and he was all right, as if he had no ailment at all, and conferred upon him the standard. 'Ali said: Allah's Messenger, I will fight them until they are like us. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Advance cautiously until you reach their open places, thereafter invite them to Islam and inform them what is obligatory for them from the rights of Allah, for, by Allah, if Allah guides aright even one person through you that is better for you than to possess the most valuable of the camels.
Sahih Muslim 2406

The Prophet (sawas) could have also just prayed for the eye to be healed like Prophet Isa (as) prayed for the dead to be rasied, but Allah (swt) wanted to show that the very being of his most beloved servant is a miracle unto itself even when in the garment of a human body.

On a personal note

One look at Muhammad (sawas) the best of creation, and the heart uncontrollably testifies that all praise is for Allah (swt) is the best of creators.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 01:24:17 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #34 on: August 03, 2019, 02:59:06 PM »
So the crux of the matter is whether an ijtihadi error is compatible with the role and the nature of the seal of the Prophets (sawas) in Islam.
What you say doesn’t hold any value, when I have proven my case from the example of Quranic verse. And not to forget some of your esteemed and high ranking scholars believed that Prophet(saws) did make mistake , but that doesn’t affect his status as a Prophet. So your rational holds no value against these, when i have proven my case.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #35 on: August 03, 2019, 03:28:35 PM »
What you say doesn’t hold any value, when I have proven my case from the example of Quranic verse. And not to forget some of your esteemed and high ranking scholars believed that Prophet(saws) did make mistake , but that doesn’t affect his status as a Prophet. So your rational holds no value against these, when i have proven my case.

You've proven nothing because you're completely ignoring the context. Please read my detailed refutation of your interpretation above. I've given proofs from 'Aql, Quran and Sunnah as to why your exegesis of the verse 66:1 is invalid.
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2019, 03:44:20 PM »
You've proven nothing because you're completely ignoring the context. Please read my detailed refutation of your interpretation above. I've given proofs from 'Aql, Quran and Sunnah as to why your exegesis of the verse 66:1 is invalid.
All your arguments goes to thrash by one fact that Allah corrected the Prophet(saws) in 66:1. And you should keep in mind that, your major scholars were all learned enough to know all these theories you are making, yet they by passed them and held the view that Prophet(s) can make mistake.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2019, 04:11:38 PM »
All your arguments goes to thrash by one fact that Allah corrected the Prophet(saws) in 66:1. And you should keep in mind that, your major scholars were all learned enough to know all these theories you are making, yet they by passed them and held the view that Prophet(s) can make mistake.

I have refuted your incorrect understanding of 66:1 in my reply from the Quran, Sunnah and 'Aql but if you just wanna stroke your own ego, thinking you've somehow proven something despite my in depth refutation of your incorrect understanding of the verse. By all means go ahead and bask in your own ignorance.

To add insult to injury, here's some additional proof from the Sunnah that your understanding of 66:1 is flawed:

Didn't the Prophet (sawas) according to your sources, say: "My community, as a whole, will not agree upon error"? When the ijmah of the ummah is immune from error, how is it then conceivable that the master of the ummah is not? That would be claiming that the ijma of the Ummah is superior to the judgement of the Prophet (sawas).

If there is an iota of sincerity or a shred of intelligence in you, read my refutation:

So the crux of the matter is whether an ijtihadi error is compatible with the role and the nature of the seal of the Prophets (sawas) in Islam.

Allow me to present my rationale from Quran, Sunnah, 'Aql, for the belief that Prophet Muhammad (sawas), even-though human, he was protected from ijtihadi errors and the shubahat that cause them. I would like you to address the proofs I've provided from each category unless we are in agreement.

From `Aql:

If the Prophet's words, actions or silence were susceptible to error in ijtihad, then this causes ibtal us sunnah. And consequently all ijtihad of all ulama becomes meaningless; as one of the two major sources for ijtihad, the prophet's words words, actions and silence are themselves susceptible to error.

From the Quran:

Because we both agree that the Prophet (sawas) was free from sin, we also agree that "Liyaghfira laka Allahu mataqaddama min thanbika wama taakhkhara wayutimmaniAAmatahu AAalayka wayahdiyaka siratan mustaqeema" (48:2) is to be understood in the light of "So be patient for the decision of your Lord and do not obey (wala tuti’a) from among them a sinner or ungrateful [disbeliever]. (76:24)" so the word "thanb" is taken to mean something other than sin, even-though the word "khata", the more apparent term for a fault, is not used.

Looking deeper we find that the word thanb is from the verb- form thanaba which means “to follow”; its noun form thanab means “tail; something that follows”. So the main idea in the word thanb is the concept of something following the other. “Sin” is known as ”thanb” because it is an act that entails evil consequence in form of Allah's displeasure and punishment.

The word ghafara actually means “to cover or conceal something” which also implies the meaning of protecting something. This word is used in its original meaning in our hadith literature. For example, a hadith say “Ghaffir ash -shayb bi 'l-khidhab” which means “Cover the white hair by dyeing” or “Conceal the old age by dyeing.” “Forgiving” is known as ”ghafara” because by forgiving, Allah covers the evil consequence of sins, and protects the sinner from it.

With the literal meanings of the two crucial words in the verse: thanb and yaghfira, the entire passage under discussion becomes more meaningful and relevant to the Treaty of Hudaybiyya (when these verses were revealed). The verses would now read as follows:

Verily We granted thee [in the Treaty of Hudaybiyya] a manifest victory; so that God may protect you from the past and future consequences of your [policy with the Meccans].

This understanding emerges not only from the lexical and historical context of the verse, but also from looking at 48:2 not just in the light of 76:24 but also in the light of "qad jaakummina Allahi noorun wakitabun mubeen" (5:15).

Imam Ibn al-Jawzi: The meaning of Nur is: The Prophet Muhammad (Peace upon him) [Z'ad al Maseer fil Ilm at-Tafseer Under the verse 5:15]

(Imam Qurtubi) and Mawardi (al-Nukat wa al-‘uyun, 2.22) mention that interpreting Nur as "Muhammad" (Allah bless him and give him peace) was also the position by [the Imam of Arabic grammar Ibrahim ibn Muhammad] al-Zajjaj (d. 311/923). [Ahkam al-Qur’an , 6.118]

So even-though, to Allah (swt) there is no distinction between the prophets in that none of them are anything but his servants (3:84), in the creation, the seal of the Prophets is unique. He is human, susceptible to emotion, hunger, pain and death "Surely, I am but a human being like you..." 18:110 but he is also noor "There has come to you from Allah a light and an evident Book." (5:15) not susceptible to zulamaat, shubahat and consequent errors in judgement.

And therefore the understanding of the first verse of at-Tahrim is that his human side, out of aqlaq, would have abstained from that which was halal but the light within him prevented that from happening, in this case, in the form of a verse.

From Sunnah:

Narrated Abu Hurairah:
"They said: 'O Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)! When was the Prophethood established for you?' He said: 'While Adam was between (being) soul and body.'"
Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Book 49, Hadith 3968
Grade: Sahih (Darussalam)

Mankind, and thereby the human Muhammad (sawas) had not even attained creation while the noor within him was already a Prophet. Whom Allah (swt) made a warner "Tabaraka allathee nazzalaalfurqana AAala AAabdihi liyakoona lil AAalameena natheera"(25:1) and a mercy (Wama arsalnaka illa rahmatanlil AAalameen) to all that which Allah (swt) is the lord and sustainer "Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen".

It is through this light that Allah (swt) granted him the vision of that which was hidden from his human eyes to the extent he needed it:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Do you consider or see that my face is towards the Qibla? By Allah, neither your submissiveness nor your bowing is hidden from me, surely I see you from my back."
Sahih al-Bukhari 418

And made his saliva shifa:

Sahl b. Sa'd reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said on the Day of Khaibar:
I would certainly give this standard to a person at whose hand Allah would grant victory and who loves Allah and His Messenger and Allah and His Messenger love him also. The people spent the night thinking as to whom it would be given. When it was morning the people hastened to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) all of them hoping that that would be given to him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Where is 'Ali b. Abu Talib? They said: Allah's Messenger, his eyes are sore. He then sent for him and he was brought and Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) applied saliva to his eyes and invoked blessings and he was all right, as if he had no ailment at all, and conferred upon him the standard. 'Ali said: Allah's Messenger, I will fight them until they are like us. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Advance cautiously until you reach their open places, thereafter invite them to Islam and inform them what is obligatory for them from the rights of Allah, for, by Allah, if Allah guides aright even one person through you that is better for you than to possess the most valuable of the camels.
Sahih Muslim 2406

The Prophet (sawas) could have also just prayed for the eye to be healed like Prophet Isa (as) prayed for the dead to be rasied, but Allah (swt) wanted to show that the very being of his most beloved servant is a miracle unto itself even when in the garment of a human body.

On a personal note

One look at Muhammad (sawas) the best of creation, and the heart uncontrollably testifies that all praise is for Allah (swt) the best of creators.
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #38 on: August 03, 2019, 04:18:54 PM »
I have refuted your incorrect understanding of 66:1 in my reply from the Quran, Sunnah and 'Aql but if you just wanna stroke your own ego, thinking you've somehow proven something despite my in depth refutation of your incorrect understanding of the verse. By all means go ahead and bask in your own ignorance.

To add insult to injury, here's some additional proof from the Sunnah that your understanding of 66:1 is flawed:

Didn't the Prophet (sawas) according to your sources, say: "My community, as a whole, will not agree upon error"? When the ijmah of the ummah is immune from error, how is it then conceivable that the master of the ummah is not? That would be claiming that the ijma of the Ummah is superior to the judgement of the Prophet (sawas).

If there is an iota of sincerity or a shred of intelligence in you, read my refutation:

What needed to be refuted I have refuted, for which you had no reasonable answer. And Im not interested in refuting your personal theories and wasting my time.

And for the people to judge the level of your stupidity in misinterpreting things, let me present a sample.

Rafi' b. Khadij reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to Medina and the people had been grafting the trees. He said: What are you doing? They said: We are grafting them, whereupon he said: It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practice (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it (to the Holy Prophet), whereupon he said: I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being. 'Ikrima reported that he said something like this. [Sahih Muslim 2362].

Was it a ijtihadi mistake of  Prophet(s) ? Yes or no. This report is simple and clear for any sane person, yet I anticipate your non-sensical theories to reject it.

muslim720

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2019, 04:15:08 PM »
Shi'i tactics on full display!

Brother Noor said "mistakes", not "sins".  And the verse he is asked to explain is from the Qur'an.  Last I checked, Qur'an is binding upon both Shias and Sunnis.  What Abu_Muhammad is doing with brother Noor is what I expect from a non-Muslim trying to give the impression that the Holy Prophet (saw), as per the verse, had past and future sins, naudhubillah!

Whereas the books of tafseer are unanimous in stating that the term "sins" is to be understood within the context of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah and the verses before and after it both of which support the notion of promised victory versus why the Muslims (up until that point) had failed to achieve tangible victory (making Hajj, going into Mecca).

https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=48

"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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