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Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph

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Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« on: May 30, 2020, 06:01:20 PM »
Prophet Muhammed(saww) said to Ali (as):
You are to Me similar to the status of Harun to Musa, with the exception that you are not a Prophet, and you are my caliph(successor) over every believer after ME.
Sunni source:
Kitab Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Aasim, Page 565, Hadith 1188| Hadith Graded Hasan
Link:
https://ia802307.us.archive.org/32/items/FPksunna/ksunna.pdf
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 06:02:52 PM by ARTIC PLE »

Soccer

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2020, 11:32:26 PM »
Honestly, this is a weak proof. It's obviously Ziyadah that all Sunni and Shiite sources, didn't record this addition at the event even Du'a Nudba doesn't have this addition brother.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2020, 11:36:02 PM »
Also, the first part is sufficient proof without the ziyadah. And ziyadah doesn't make sense, because it would mean, it's not implied already. If there was no "and..", but he (s) just said without or said "so..." or "indeed" "surely" anything else, but an end, it would make sense at least grammar wise.

We shouldn't argue over what we don't know for certain (if the ziyadah was part of it) over what we know for certain.  The certainty is the first part and it in fact, not withstanding the irrational conclusions Seher does do people about it, cannot be but that he chosen in the same way Mohammad (s) is chosen by God. It's impossible grammar wise to be something else. Addition to that shows Ali (a) is a leader chosen by God.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2020, 08:09:51 AM »
Honestly, this is a weak proof. It's obviously Ziyadah that all Sunni and Shiite sources, didn't record this addition at the event even Du'a Nudba doesn't have this addition brother.
This is an authentic report which is graded as "HASAN". Sunnis always argue to bring forth an authentic report regarding Imam Ali's succession and this is the proof from their own books. Now i am waiting to see whether they will turn their faces or even respond to this.

MuslimK

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Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2020, 02:14:21 PM »
Prophet Muhammed(saww) said to Ali (as):
You are to Me similar to the status of Harun to Musa, with the exception that you are not a Prophet, and you are my caliph(successor) over every believer after ME.
Sunni source:
Kitab Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Aasim, Page 565, Hadith 1188| Hadith Graded Hasan
Link:
https://ia802307.us.archive.org/32/items/FPksunna/ksunna.pdf

When a Hadith chain is graded "Hasan" it is doesn't necessary the actual matn/text is authentic. There could be other issues such as disconnection in the chain, odd text and other errors. The report quoted, besides having a problem in the chain which is explained below, also contradicts all the other authentic reports narrated by several companions that don't include this addition.

Anyways, the reported you quoted has been answered on the following links:

Excerpt from TwelverShia.net article:

[Finally, the last narration that includes the addition is the narration of Abu Balj Al-Wasiti. However, his narration, while appearing to be strong, includes a hidden defect. We find in Sharh Ilal Al-Tirmithi by Ibn Rajab (p.493) that Ahmad questioned the narration of Amr bin Maymoon from Ibn Abbas, perhaps since the former is much older than him. Then Ibn Rajab adds that Abdul Ghani Al-Hafith believed that Abu Balj made a mistake in the narration and meant to say Maymoon Abu Abdullah (who is weak) when he said Amr bin Maymoon. Ibn Rajab sees this opinion as a valid one.

So, in conclusion, the addition can be found in the narrations of weak narrators, and only one strong Shi’ee narrator, Ja’afar bin Sulaiman Al-Dhuba’ee, and this conflicts with all the authentic narrations that do not include this addition, therefore the addition is weak.
]

https://www.twelvershia.net/2013/05/02/response-to-alee-a-s-the-master-of-every-believer/

More detailed refutations:
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/part-5-interpretation-of-hadeeth-khalifatayn-by-religious-deceivers-under-microscope/

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/05/30/part-4-interpretation-of-hadeeth-khalifatayn-by-religious-deceivers-under-microscope/
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 02:16:22 PM by MuslimK »
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GreatChineseFall

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 06:56:11 PM »
Also, the first part is sufficient proof without the ziyadah. And ziyadah doesn't make sense, because it would mean, it's not implied already. If there was no "and..", but he (s) just said without or said "so..." or "indeed" "surely" anything else, but an end, it would make sense at least grammar wise.

The addition wouldn't make sense IF it's implied already, indeed but that is also the ironic part and where some Shia's expose and shoot themselves in the foot. The very fact that these additions are falsely added is itself actually a strong indication that what they added is not implied in the previous statement according to them. Imagine a civil rights movement leader saying "Black lives matter!" and then you have people from the opposing group quoting him saying that he said "Black lives matter and white lives don't!". The very fact that they felt the need to falsely quote him is an indication that that what they added is not implied by the earlier part according to them.

Also, saying that they were just paraphrasing or trying to add clarifications is an unreasonable explanation.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 06:59:32 PM by GreatChineseFall »

Soccer

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 11:00:26 PM »
The addition wouldn't make sense IF it's implied already, indeed but that is also the ironic part and where some Shia's expose and shoot themselves in the foot. The very fact that these additions are falsely added is itself actually a strong indication that what they added is not implied in the previous statement according to them. Imagine a civil rights movement leader saying "Black lives matter!" and then you have people from the opposing group quoting him saying that he said "Black lives matter and white lives don't!". The very fact that they felt the need to falsely quote him is an indication that that what they added is not implied by the earlier part according to them.

Also, saying that they were just paraphrasing or trying to add clarifications is an unreasonable explanation.

Sure the fabricator in this case felt like that. But the Shiite recordings of this hadith don't have the Ziyadah.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

GreatChineseFall

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2020, 11:50:36 PM »
Sure the fabricator in this case felt like that. But the Shiite recordings of this hadith don't have the Ziyadah.

Perhaps, I guess my point was more that these are not isolated cases. If it was just one person, one could say he was crazy or different but this is a recurring theme with some Shia's, like with claims of Tahreef of the Qur'an(which were many) and which, let's be honest, was not just a theological discussion but would arise from a feeling that the Qur'an as it is was, was not backing their claims enough. The same is true for false additions to the Prophet's(ﷺ) words. It is somewhat telling of the general feeling among these people and the confidence they had in their claims without employing deceitful methods.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2020, 04:03:42 PM »
This is an authentic report which is graded as "HASAN". Sunnis always argue to bring forth an authentic report regarding Imam Ali's succession and this is the proof from their own books. Now i am waiting to see whether they will turn their faces or even respond to this.

Eagerly waiting for this guy's response.

Soccer

Re: Authentic hadith proving Imam Ali was appointed Caliph
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 08:49:01 PM »
Perhaps, I guess my point was more that these are not isolated cases. If it was just one person, one could say he was crazy or different but this is a recurring theme with some Shia's, like with claims of Tahreef of the Qur'an(which were many) and which, let's be honest, was not just a theological discussion but would arise from a feeling that the Qur'an as it is was, was not backing their claims enough. The same is true for false additions to the Prophet's(ﷺ) words. It is somewhat telling of the general feeling among these people and the confidence they had in their claims without employing deceitful methods.

This is due to sorcery (when it comes to Quran).
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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