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The Awaited Mahdi

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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2018, 08:26:39 AM »
I am glad you mentioned world war 2. What I want to do is present a clip which shows the reality of how many causalities the 2nd world war caused.

How is that relevant? I only mentioned World War 2 to give an example of how the victorious party can sometimes benefit economically from war, and it is my expectation that likewise the coming wars of the Imam al-Mahdi will enrich the Muslims.

Btw I did see the YouTube video and it is very shocking how many soldiers and civilians died in WW2, especially on the Soviet side. But if the threat of nuclear war ever becomes real, then that "World War 3" will make WW2 look like a walk in the park by comparison.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2018, 09:20:11 PM »
If you don't mind me counter questioning: why is it not possible to be "Allah's Caliph".
Prophets Adam and David are traditionally referred to as Khalifatullah by Muslims.
In my view, the promised Mahdi is also Khalifatullah, he will be Allah's representative on Earth.
Muslims views need to be backed by the Quran or authentic hadith. 
Prophets represent Allah's message. They were not representing Allah himself. The attributes of Allah cannot be represented by anyone. However, his message can.


In this verse we don't see the term Khalifatullah.

And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (Quran 2:30)

Quote
You earlier wrote that the Quran speaks of Khalifa of the Earth and not Khalifa of Allah.
But what is a "Khalifa of the Earth"? That doesn't make sense.
I said it wrong it.  It says ..I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
Quote
The Quran never says "Khalifa of the Earth", it says "Khalifa IN the Earth".
Meaning someone who has been made Khalifa by Allah to represent Allah in the Earth.

Yes, but again Calipah of Allah is not used. So the narrator added something in the narration that does not exist or has any backing.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2018, 09:25:26 PM »
Muslims views need to be backed by the Quran or authentic hadith. 
Prophets represent Allah's message. They were not representing Allah himself. The attributes of Allah cannot be represented by anyone. However, his message can.

Allah's message is based on His will. So a Prophet represents the will of Allah, that being one of His attributes (Irada and Rida).

A Prophet is basically the instrument through which Allah speaks and discloses His will and instructions for the people. So how is a Prophet not directly representing Allah?

Insofar as having the ability and authority to execute Allah's will, a Prophet or non-Prophet becomes the Khalifa of Allah.
Like how the British viceroy in India had the ability and authority to execute the will of the British crown and government in that country. Its the exact same concept. The Khalifa is the Viceroy of Allah on Earth.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2018, 11:09:07 PM »
Allah's message is based on His will. So a Prophet represents the will of Allah, that being one of His attributes (Irada and Rida).

A Prophet is basically the instrument through which Allah speaks and discloses His will and instructions for the people. So how is a Prophet not directly representing Allah?

Insofar as having the ability and authority to execute Allah's will, a Prophet or non-Prophet becomes the Khalifa of Allah.
Like how the British viceroy in India had the ability and authority to execute the will of the British crown and government in that country. Its the exact same concept. The Khalifa is the Viceroy of Allah on Earth.


Prophets receive Wahi and thats what they represent. What makes a non Prophet a Calipah of Allah and his will? Nothing. There is no such thing as Allah's representative.

For example there are verses in the Quran where it says there are monafiqeen among you, you dont know who they are. So in reality Prophethood is dependant on the wahi and they are representative of Allah's message not Allah himself. They are presenting the divine message. There are times when questions were asked and the Prophet (pbuh) had to wait for an answer. However you are telling me a Calipah of Allah will always give answers that presents Allah's will?

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2018, 09:27:00 AM »

Prophets receive Wahi and thats what they represent. What makes a non Prophet a Calipah of Allah and his will? Nothing. There is no such thing as Allah's representative.

For example there are verses in the Quran where it says there are monafiqeen among you, you dont know who they are. So in reality Prophethood is dependant on the wahi and they are representative of Allah's message not Allah himself. They are presenting the divine message. There are times when questions were asked and the Prophet (pbuh) had to wait for an answer. However you are telling me a Calipah of Allah will always give answers that presents Allah's will?

No, that's a good point, but I'm saying whatever answer or action a Prophet does, in the capacity of being a Prophet, is representing and executing the will of Allah.

As far as Khilafat fil Ard, I do not say that every Prophet was a Caliph of Allah, but only those prophets and non-prophets who were given authority in the land and used their authority to execute the will of Allah. This is why the Quran refers to David as Caliph but not Elias or Elisha.

Anyways, I think we can agree to disagree on this point, perhaps it's just an issue of semantics
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2018, 02:01:57 AM »
No, that's a good point, but I'm saying whatever answer or action a Prophet does, in the capacity of being a Prophet, is representing and executing the will of Allah.

As far as Khilafat fil Ard, I do not say that every Prophet was a Caliph of Allah, but only those prophets and non-prophets who were given authority in the land and used their authority to execute the will of Allah. This is why the Quran refers to David as Caliph but not Elias or Elisha.

Anyways, I think we can agree to disagree on this point, perhaps it's just an issue of semantics

Look how the 12ers interpreted Calipah of Allah. The 12er goes as far as saying the Mahdi will get direct wahi than the Prophet (pbuh) himself.

Refer to the 27:29 min mark


Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2018, 02:19:03 AM »
Look how the 12ers interpreted Calipah of Allah. The 12er goes as far as saying the Mahdi will get direct wahi than the Prophet (pbuh) himself.

Indeed, the Shia might as well say the Mahdi will be a Prophet. The only reason they avoid describing their Imams as Prophets is because that would be a manifest violation of the Quranic Verse (33:40), otherwise their Imams have all the essence and characteristics of Nubuwwah.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2018, 03:22:49 AM »
Indeed, the Shia might as well say the Mahdi will be a Prophet. The only reason they avoid describing their Imams as Prophets is because that would be a manifest violation of the Quranic Verse (33:40), otherwise their Imams have all the essence and characteristics of Nubuwwah.

Actually 12er Shia are saying Imamate is higher than Prophethood and Messengers. A Prophet has to wait for Wahi. Whereas an Imam does not and makes ijitihad which is equal to wahi or the Quran. This is their belief.

For example the Quran says the Prophet (pbuh) did not know who the monafiqeen are. It was then given through revelation on who they are. On the contrary the Imams  can let you know if you are going to jannah, tell you if you are a momin or among the monafiqeen.

In Surah Yusuf it says that the Prophet (pbuh) did not know the story of Yusuf (as). Yet for an Imam they access to Ilm al Jafr a book which lets them know the entire bible and the knowledge of all the Bani Israelis Prophet combined.



Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2018, 03:52:37 AM »
For example the Quran says the Prophet (pbuh) did not know who the monafiqeen are. It was then given through revelation on who they are. On the contrary the Imams  can let you know if you are going to jannah, tell you if you are a momin or among the monafiqeen.

Do you mean to say that the Shia believe the 12 Imams have knowledge of the unseen in their essence (i.e. that each Imam is عالم الغيب بذاته) - the Imam is a knower of the unseen by his own essence?
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2018, 04:56:41 AM »
Do you mean to say that the Shia believe the 12 Imams have knowledge of the unseen in their essence (i.e. that each Imam is عالم الغيب بذاته) - the Imam is a knower of the unseen by his own essence?

Here is a narration which provides the explanation.

Allamah al-Majlisi records:

إكمال الدين: بهذا الاسناد، عن أبان بن تغلب قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام:سيأتي في مسجدكم ثلاثمائة وثلاثة عشر رجلا - يعني مسجد مكة - يعلم أهل مكة أنه لم يلدهم آباؤهم ولا أجدادهم، عليهم السيوف، مكتوب على كل سيف كلمة تفتح ألف كلمة، فيبعث الله تبارك وتعالى ريحا فتنادي بكل واد: هذا المهدي يقضي بقضاء داود وسليمان عليهما السلام لا يريد عليه بينة.
Ikmal al-Din: Through this chain, from Aban b. Taghlib:

Abu ‘Abd Allah, peace be upon him, said: “There will be in your mosque, that is the mosque of Kufa, 313 men. The people of Makkah will know that they (i.e. the 313 men) are not descended from their (i.e. the Makkans’) fathers and ancestors. They (i.e. the 313 men) will have swords; on each sword will be inscribed a statement which will open one thousand (other) statements. Then, Allah the Most Blessed and the Most High will send a wind which will call in every valley: ‘This is the Mahdi.’ He will judge with the judgment of Dawud and Sulayman, peace be upon them both: he will not demand for evidence on it.”


Here is the commentary of the hadith.

Apart from prophets, messengers, and some other righteous people, our Creator also sends wahy to Imams:

وجعلناهم أئمة يهدون بأمرنا وأوحينا إليهم فعل الخيرات وإقام الصلاة وإيتاء الزكاة وكانوا لنا عابدين
And We appointed them Imams, guiding by Our Command, and We sent wahy to them to do good deeds, and to keep up al-salat, and to pay al-zakat. And, they were worshippers of Us.43

It is indeed notable that the receipt of the wahy has been explicitly linked with their office of Imamah in this instance. This establishes absolutely that a true Imam too receives some wahy from Allah. Of course, al-Mahdi is an Imam “sent” by Him from the offspring of Ibrahim, Isma’il, Muhammad and ‘Ali, ‘alaihim al-salam.


In another words from my understanding they have much more access to wahy. Their Wahy they don't have to wait. They ask and they get it.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2018, 07:56:41 PM »
According to a Hadith narrated by sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

يَخْرُجُ رَجُلٌ مِنْ وَرَاءِ النَّهْرِ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْحَارِثُ حَرَّاثٍ عَلَى مُقَدِّمَتِهِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ مَنْصُورٌ يُوَطِّئُ أَوْ يُمَكِّنُ لآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا مَكَّنَتْ قُرَيْشٌ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَبَ عَلَى كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ نَصْرُهُ ‏ أَوْ قَالَ ‏إِجَابَتُهُ

"A man will come from Transoxania called al-Harith Harrath. His army will be led by a man called Mansur. They will consolidate for the Family of Muhammad as Quraysh consolidated for Allah's Apostle صلى الله عليه وسلم. Every believer is obligated to help him." "Or respond to him" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4290)

Although the Hadith is Da'if due to two unknown narrators (Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi and Hilal b. Amro al-Kufi), I think there is some truth to it.

Now it is certainly anachronistic for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to refer to Man Wara an-Nahr (Transoxania). This term appeared later when the Arabs actually reached that region, it was unknown to them in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But if you consider all the Ahadith, despite their weakness, about a connection between the promised Mahdi and an army with black banners from Khurasan, then it is quite possible that some significant Islamic figure will appear from that general region.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2018, 09:17:47 PM »
According to a Hadith narrated by sayyidina Ali رضى الله عنه the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

يَخْرُجُ رَجُلٌ مِنْ وَرَاءِ النَّهْرِ يُقَالُ لَهُ الْحَارِثُ حَرَّاثٍ عَلَى مُقَدِّمَتِهِ رَجُلٌ يُقَالُ لَهُ مَنْصُورٌ يُوَطِّئُ أَوْ يُمَكِّنُ لآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ كَمَا مَكَّنَتْ قُرَيْشٌ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَبَ عَلَى كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ نَصْرُهُ ‏ أَوْ قَالَ ‏إِجَابَتُهُ

"A man will come from Transoxania called al-Harith Harrath. His army will be led by a man called Mansur. They will consolidate for the Family of Muhammad as Quraysh consolidated for Allah's Apostle صلى الله عليه وسلم. Every believer is obligated to help him." "Or respond to him" (Sunan Abi Dawud #4290)

Although the Hadith is Da'if due to two unknown narrators (Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi and Hilal b. Amro al-Kufi), I think there is some truth to it.

Now it is certainly anachronistic for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم to refer to Man Wara an-Nahr (Transoxania). This term appeared later when the Arabs actually reached that region, it was unknown to them in the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. But if you consider all the Ahadith, despite their weakness, about a connection between the promised Mahdi and an army with black banners from Khurasan, then it is quite possible that some significant Islamic figure will appear from that general region.


In the era of Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) there was a confusion. Some scholars and Muslims even believed that Imam Nafs az Zakiyah (as) was the Mahdi. In that revolution the Abbasids were among the main supporters and  the support included the ruler  Al Mansoor who  gave bayah and fought against the Ummayads. I don't know if hadith was fabricated by them. Also, the  Abbasids at the time  carried black flags as well. Once al Mansoor al Abbasid got into power he crucified Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) in Madina along with his 313 supporters.



Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2018, 11:25:50 PM »
In the era of Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) there was a confusion. Some scholars and Muslims even believed that Imam Nafs az Zakiyah (as) was the Mahdi. In that revolution the Abbasids were among the main supporters and  the support included the ruler  Al Mansoor who  gave bayah and fought against the Ummayads. I don't know if hadith was fabricated by them. Also, the  Abbasids at the time  carried black flags as well. Once al Mansoor al Abbasid got into power he crucified Imam Nafs-az-Zakiyah (as) in Madina along with his 313 supporters.

Yes I'm aware of the history but let me tell you why I don't believe this Hadith was fabricated by the Abbasids:

1. The figure of Harith Harrath is to appear from Transoxania, the land beyond the Oxus River where the towns of Bukhara, Samarqand, Tirmiz are located (modern day Uzbekistan)

If the Abbasids meant this Hadith to apply to Abu Muslim al-Khurasani, it cannot, because Abu Muslim got the appellation "al-Khurasani" after being sent to that region where he made Merv his center and defeated Nasr bin Sayyar the Umayyad governor of the province. Note the town of Merv is not included in Man Wara an-Nahr (Transoxania) because it is south of the River.

In fact it was never apparent that the Abbasids would get any support from the Khurasan region until the rise of Abu Muslim al-Khurasani. So I doubt it was fabricated by the Abbasids, at least before their uprising began.

2. The Abbasid caliph "al-Mansur" never really led any army during the initial Abbasid uprising. He took the regnal title "al-Mansur", but his original name was Abdullah. The Hadith says that a man named Mansur shall lead the Army of Harith Harrath.

3. It is implied in the Hadith that neither Harith Harrath nor Mansur are from the Aale Muhammad AS. They will instead work for the service of Aale Muhammad AS to establish a caliphate on their behalf. The Abbasids, however, considered themselves the Aale Muhammad being the progeny of Sayyidina Abu al-Fadl Abbas bin Abdal Muttalib رضى الله عنه.

As you pointed out the Abbasid dynasty betrayed the Shiite cause and seized power for themselves when before they pretended to be part of the Kaysanite or Shiite movement whose purpose was to establish the caliphate for the Alids.
Therefore, I doubt this narration could have been fabricated by the Abbasids after they rose to power in order to justify their rule. If this Hadith is a fabrication, it must be a fabrication of the Alids and not Abbasids.

Imam Abu Dawud is actually narrating this Hadith from Harun b. al-Mughira, who was not an Abbasid propagandist but according to the Muhaddithin had connection to the Shi'a.

The chain of the Hadith is authentic until we reach the unknown narrator Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi. Mutarrif b. Tarif (d. 141 H) is narrating from him.

I doubt that either Abu al-Hasan al-Kufi or Hilal b. Amru were Abbasid propagandists. They were likely Kufan Shiites.

If we assume this Hadith was an Abbasid fabrication, then we assume that the figure of Mansur corresponds to Abu Ja'far al-Mansur. In that case the figure of Harith Harrath of Transoxania presents a problem. Who does he correspond to? It cannot be Abu Muslim Khurasani, as the latter worked for the Abbasids serving as their general and not the other way around. But the Hadith says it is Mansur who leads the army of Harith Harrath, a figure that comes from Transoxania.
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2018, 05:55:37 AM »
عَنْ أَنَسٍ : أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ نَائِمًا فِي بَيْتِ أُمِّ سُلَيْمٍ ، فَأَتَتْهُ وَهُوَ يَسْتَرْجِعُ فَقَالَتْ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ! مِمَّ تَسْتَرْجِعُ ؟ قَالَ : مِنْ قِبَلِ جَيْشٍ يَحْدِرُ مِنْ قِبَلِ الْعِرَاقِ فِي طَلَبِ رَجُلٍ مِنَ الْمَدِينَةِ ، يَمْنَعُهُ اللَّهُ مِنْهُمْ ، فَإِذَا عَلَوُا الْبَيْدَاءَ مِنْ ذِي الْحُلَيْفَةِ خُسِفَ بِهِمْ ، فَلا يُدْرِكُ أَعْلَاهُمْ أَسْفَلَهُمْ ، وَلا يُدْرِكُ أَسْفَلُهُمْ أَعْلاهُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ، وَمَصَارِعُهُمْ شَتَّى قِيلَ : يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ، كَيْفَ يُخْسَفُ بِهِمْ جَمِيعًا وَمَصَارِعُهُمْ شَتَّى ؟ قَالَ : إِنَّ مِنْهُمْ أَوْ فِيهِمْ مَنْ جُبِرَ

Anas RA narrates that Rasul Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "An army from the direction of Iraq (i.e. East) will march in search of a man from Madinah, but Allah will prevent it from him. When they are at al-Bayda (the Earth) will collapse beneath them..." (Musnad al-Bazaar)

Although some narrations say that this Army that will be destroyed at Bayda or an open plain will come from the north, this narration is interesting because it says they will come from the direction of Iraq, meaning the east of Madinah. This is the region where the capital of the modern Saudi state is (Riyadh).
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