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How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?

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iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2018, 11:42:38 PM »
You really are stupid and I really mean that using such words for rehmat ul alimeen saw.......you could use better words at the least, is your vocabulary that low??
Astaghfirullah

See what I mean. Most of you are just here to undermine. You have an anti shia sentiment and that's all you thrive on. You constantly disregard the entire post and just pick something, take it out of context, twist and turn it around and score your desired point. Any intellectual comment from you based on knowledge? I don't think so. Forget about my vocabulary, I've busted bits and parts of your Aqeedah over and over again and that's what's bugging you.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 11:47:18 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2018, 12:43:24 AM »
You really are stupid and I really mean that using such words for rehmat ul alimeen saw.......you could use better words at the least, is your vocabulary that low??
Astaghfirullah

Rather than taking cheap shots to score personal points why don't you give me a complete break down of your analysis in response to mine. Otherwise keep quiet and stay out and let me discuss with the one who started the thread.

Mythbuster1

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2018, 02:40:07 AM »
See what I mean. Most of you are just here to undermine. You have an anti shia sentiment and that's all you thrive on. You constantly disregard the entire post and just pick something, take it out of context, twist and turn it around and score your desired point. Any intellectual comment from you based on knowledge? I don't think so. Forget about my vocabulary, I've busted bits and parts of your Aqeedah over and over again and that's what's bugging you.

Hit a raw nerve have I........
Busted what? You still haven’t proved Imamate from Quran which I asked you to provide months ago whilst I provided you shura consultation from the Quran months ago, hence I left it coz you have nothing apart from your own opinions and ideas, I let you drown in your own self ego.
At least be a man and admit you should’ve never used words like clueless against the greatest prophet that ever walked on this earth, I was ok reading the posts but I ain’t gonna stay quite when you use such poor and insulting words like that against our prophet saw.....you may see Him as ordinary but we don’t, i will stay quite but don’t use such words again have some respect, if not then I will speak out I won’t be hiding like some.

Mythbuster1

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2018, 02:49:52 AM »
Rather than taking cheap shots to score personal points why don't you give me a complete break down of your analysis in response to mine. Otherwise keep quiet and stay out and let me discuss with the one who started the thread.

Instead of using clueless and helpless you could’ve just said politely.........words like ‘didn’t know’ or ‘didn’t understand’ there’s my analysis in response to your chosen words.......be a man about it and admit you are wrong using such words wether to make a point or otherwise. There are people also reading these threads who don’t like your choice of words on the greatest man who taught you and I islam so be careful and don’t use disrespectful words.

wannabe

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2018, 03:53:26 AM »
I’ve noticed that shia sites online translate it the way Iceman has pasted.
But all sunni translations stop at ‘Allah’.
Can anyone shed light on whether its a valid translation or not by the shia?
Clearly the two different translations give different meanings.
from Ibn kathir, tafsir Quran on 3:7 (english translation) page 12/343, :
Quote
Scholars of Qur'an recitation have different opinions about pausing at Allah's Name in this Ayah. This stop was reported from Aishah, Urwah, Abu Ash-Sha`tha' and Abu Nahik.
Some pause after reciting, وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ‬  (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge), saying that the Qur'an does not address the people with what they cannot understand.
Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that Ibn Abbas said,
"I am among those who are firmly grounded in its Ta'wil interpretation.''...
hope this helps.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2018, 04:58:16 AM »
Hit a raw nerve have I........
Busted what? You still haven’t proved Imamate from Quran which I asked you to provide months ago whilst I provided you shura consultation from the Quran months ago, hence I left it coz you have nothing apart from your own opinions and ideas, I let you drown in your own self ego.
At least be a man and admit you should’ve never used words like clueless against the greatest prophet that ever walked on this earth, I was ok reading the posts but I ain’t gonna stay quite when you use such poor and insulting words like that against our prophet saw.....you may see Him as ordinary but we don’t, i will stay quite but don’t use such words again have some respect, if not then I will speak out I won’t be hiding like some.

What a cheap shot. If you can't get the better of someone in a discussion then look for a cheap excuse and turn it into an argument. Your entire post tells me you're out to score points and gain attention. I won't let you derail the thread. So stay quiet and keep out if you've got nothing to contribute to the thread and discussion. And as far as your other points, I've proven Imamah from the Qur'an and I've done it many times over. As far as consultation goes I've asked you what are the principles, rules and regulations to conduct shura, what is the method and procedure but I got no answer. Lets stick to the thread and what's being discussed.

I didn't use such words against the Prophet (pbuh). Those who believe that Allah only knows the actual and true meaning and understanding regarding the Mutashabihat verses and no one else are insulting the Prophet (pbuh) by believing as such. You know what I said and ment. I won't let you hijack this thread and discussion.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 05:03:35 AM by iceman »

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2018, 05:27:24 AM »
Ok, why don't you put the actual verses forward and we shall take it from there, so there is no misunderstanding or excuses.

Sorry my son was born today. I was busy at the hospital. I couldn't reply immediately.


Here is the verse, and this is why I am relying on a different translation as compared to the one you posted.

 ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ - 3:7



You see in the Quran versions online there is ۗ after Allah. There is no stopping after الْعِلْمِ. So why would I accept your translation.

Here is a link for it.

https://quran.com/3

Can you show me a 12er Shia quran where the stop is found after الْعِلْمِ? Does a 12er Shia version exist online?

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2018, 05:31:34 AM »

Because apart from Allah if no one is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses then what do we do and make of these verses? If we go by your understanding and statement that apart from Allah no one knows or knew the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses then that means the Prophet (pbuh) was also clueless and helpless?

Do you know remember when the Jews asked the Prophet (pbuh) 3 questions, and the replies were given. One of the question was about the soul. Allah (swt) openly says only Allah knows. He didn't answer the question. We Sunnis believe its part of hikmah. What is the 12er Shia version of the story?

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2018, 05:38:50 AM »
from Ibn kathir, tafsir Quran on 3:7 (english translation) page 12/343, :hope this helps.

Actually this makes a huge difference. Thanks! Is there any 12er Shia narrations about the Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas?

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2018, 02:02:06 PM »
Sorry my son was born today. I was busy at the hospital. I couldn't reply immediately.


Here is the verse, and this is why I am relying on a different translation as compared to the one you posted.

 ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ - 3:7



You see in the Quran versions online there is ۗ after Allah. There is no stopping after الْعِلْمِ. So why would I accept your translation.

Here is a link for it.

https://quran.com/3

Can you show me a 12er Shia quran where the stop is found after الْعِلْمِ? Does a 12er Shia version exist online?

And very big CONGRATULATIONS on the birth of your son.

"Here is the verse, and this is why I am relying on a different translation as compared to the one you posted"

Don't worry about the one I've posted. Lets focus on the one you've put forward.

" ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ - 3:7"

There are a few points I'd like to make here. ' ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ" who are they and what is Allah saying about them here? What about them and why are they being mentioned?

If we go by your translation and meaning then this means that no one other than Allah is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses, not even Muhammad s.a.w upon whom these verses were revealed,

and it was his responsibility to pass the message on but some of it (Mutashabihat verses) he wasn't aware, so does this mean that we (Muslims) have a free pass regarding and concerning the Mutashabihat verses since no one knows exactly about them and no one can accuse anyone or each other, because we don't know who's right about what?

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2018, 02:05:18 PM »
Do you know remember when the Jews asked the Prophet (pbuh) 3 questions, and the replies were given. One of the question was about the soul. Allah (swt) openly says only Allah knows. He didn't answer the question. We Sunnis believe its part of hikmah. What is the 12er Shia version of the story?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will look into it then comment on it.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 05:32:14 AM »
Quote
And very big CONGRATULATIONS on the birth of your son.
Jazakallah.




If we go by your translation and meaning then this means that no one other than Allah is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses, not even Muhammad s.a.w upon whom these verses were revealed,

and it was his responsibility to pass the message on but some of it (Mutashabihat verses) he wasn't aware, so does this mean that we (Muslims) have a free pass regarding and concerning the Mutashabihat verses since no one knows exactly about them and no one can accuse anyone or each other, because we don't know who's right about what?


Its not about translation. Trust me the translation is accurate.  Just look at where the stops are. It has to be translated that way. Anyway, brother wannabe solved the problem. It turns out ibn Abbas placed the stops which actually goes according to the translation you posted. I was not aware of that until I opened the topic. So, its actually a new learning experience for me. So now the debate isn't about translations. Its about if there are narration from the 12er Shia books supporting Ibn Abbas' view on where the  stops  are in the verse or did the 12er Shia do ijitihad and naturally incline toward Ibn Abbas' view?
This happened before. I looked up an interpretation of the shin in the Quran. The 12er Shia narrations lack a good explanation of what the shin means in the Quran. Therefore, they were forced to open up the Bakri sources and adopt Ibn Abbas' view from our Bakri books.


iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 07:43:30 PM »
Jazakallah.


Its not about translation. Trust me the translation is accurate.  Just look at where the stops are. It has to be translated that way. Anyway, brother wannabe solved the problem. It turns out ibn Abbas placed the stops which actually goes according to the translation you posted. I was not aware of that until I opened the topic. So, its actually a new learning experience for me. So now the debate isn't about translations. Its about if there are narration from the 12er Shia books supporting Ibn Abbas' view on where the  stops  are in the verse or did the 12er Shia do ijitihad and naturally incline toward Ibn Abbas' view?
This happened before. I looked up an interpretation of the shin in the Quran. The 12er Shia narrations lack a good explanation of what the shin means in the Quran. Therefore, they were forced to open up the Bakri sources and adopt Ibn Abbas' view from our Bakri books.

Ok, for argumental reasons lets go by what you say, then who are 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' and why has Allah mentioned them and what is Allah trying to tell us and say about them? What about 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm'?

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 09:38:13 PM »
Ibn Abbas said he was one of them. Its people with advanced knowledge of the Quran.

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 10:40:10 PM »
I would like to bring this to your attention;

According to the Qur’an, things which are special property of Allah, such as creation, giving life, curing without medicine, the knowledge of what has happened and what will happen, may either be momentarily given by Him at the moment they are required, or else the power and ability to do them may be given so that they can be used when necessary, by the permission of Allah. An example of the latter comes in the story of Prophet Jesus (as) who, according to Qur’an, said:

"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; I will create for you out of clay a figure of a bird, then I will breath into it, and it will be a bird by leave of Allah; I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by leave of Allah. I will also inform you of what things you eat and what you treasure up in your houses. Surely, in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”(Qur’an 3:49; see also 5:110)

So here creating something out of clay and breathing a sole into it, healing the blind and leper and bringing to life the dead should be Allah's job alone. But here we can see that it's not just Allah's job but also those who Allah grants.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:46:33 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 10:42:32 PM »
Ibn Abbas said he was one of them. Its people with advanced knowledge of the Quran.

And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?

We join 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' along with Allah that not only he is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses but also those firmly rooted in knowledge. But you separate 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' from Allah then why are they mentioned and where and what are you going to attach them with? Your talking about the stop but not addressing the remainder of the verse.  What's the purpose and reason for the rest of the verse?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:55:53 PM by iceman »

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 03:08:39 AM »
My understanding is Ibn Abbas was given more time to study metaphorical verses of the Quran under the Propblhet (pbuh) and Imam Ali (as). I don't in any way mean he was given some super natural power. So i disagree with your suggestion that this special knowledge has to be some special power. It all about education and not super natural power.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2018, 12:13:56 PM »
Ibn Kathir reported: Ibn Abbas said, “Interpretations (tafseer) are of four types: interpretations no one will be excused for misunderstanding, interpretations known to the Arabs from their language, interpretations known only to those grounded in knowledge, and interpretations known only to Allah the Exalted.” This saying has been narrated from Aisha, Urwah, Abu Sha’tha, Abu Naheek, and others.

Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir 3:7

عن ابن كثير عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ أَنَّهُ قَالَ التَّفْسِيرُ عَلَى أَرْبَعَةِ أَنْحَاءٍ فَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يُعْذَرُ أَحَدٌ فِي فَهْمِهِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ تَعْرِفُهُ الْعَرَبُ مِنْ لُغَاتِهَا وَتَفْسِيرٌ يَعْلَمُهُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يَعْلَمُهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَيُرْوَى هَذَا الْقَوْلُ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ وَعُرْوَةَ وَأَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ وَأَبِي نَهِيكٍ وَغَيْرِهِمْ

3:7 تفسير القرآن العظيم تفسير سورة آل عمران تفسير قوله تعالى هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات

So it seems Ibn Abbas being one of those able to do taweel is in reference to only the third type, by his own definition?
So he agrees there are verses which only Allah SWT knows their meanings.

Also can someone clarify if the quote which wannabe posted was a deliberate misquote by not quoting fully what Ibn Abbas said or was it a genuine seperate quote?


« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 12:20:04 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

iceman

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2018, 05:14:00 AM »
This is what I said,

And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?

You didn't address this.

Rationalist

Re: How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2018, 05:29:55 AM »
This is what I said,

And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE?
It means better education and time to understand the interpretation of those verses. Everyone can study science, but not everyone can become a scientist or a doctor.


Quote
Why have they been mentioned and what for?

You didn't address this.

Not every one is capable of advance understanding. However, this is not the case for the Mukhamath verses.

 

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