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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Hadrami on December 04, 2017, 07:54:54 AM

Title: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 04, 2017, 07:54:54 AM
we know shia often defend mut'ah just to have a go at Umar and they say it is highly recommended to practise this "sunnah". However when discussing with shia men or women, all of them always get offended  when asked how many times they have done it with other shia men or women. Its like as if mutah is halal but haram at the sametime. Whats the real deal?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 04, 2017, 01:18:43 PM
we know shia often defend mut'ah just to have a go at Umar and they say it is highly recommended to practise this "sunnah". However when discussing with shia men or women, all of them always get offended  when asked how many times they have done it with other shia men or women. Its like as if mutah is halal but haram at the sametime. Whats the real deal?

It's not about what you ask, it's about your intentions. The way you ask and put forward and how you start off threads clearly tells your mischievous intentions and behaviour.

You don't want to know and understand just trying your best to undermine, humiliate and insult Shiaism and Shias.  And you try to do it in a civilised fashion and manner.

Let me answer your question just to prevent you from misleading others about Shiaism, what does Halal mean? Or if something is allowed/permissible what does this mean? Does it mean you have to do it? You must do it? One has to engage in it?

There are reasons and a purpose to Halal and Haram and what is permissible and allowed and what not. Educate yourself before.......
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 05, 2017, 05:01:41 AM
Let me answer your question just to prevent you from misleading others about Shiaism, what does Halal mean? Or if something is allowed/permissible what does this mean? Does it mean you have to do it? You must do it? One has to engage in it?
why do you always love to sidetrack? Mutah is one of the most virtuous "sunnah" according to your sect. It is not just halal, permissible, but highly recommended. Shia who practise it will get huge amount of rewards. So again, the question is, knowing all those things about mutah, why is that shia always respond as if it is one of the most wicked, filthy, promiscuous act they could ever done? So whats the deal?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 05, 2017, 07:33:15 PM
why do you always love to sidetrack? Mutah is one of the most virtuous "sunnah" according to your sect. It is not just halal, permissible, but highly recommended. Shia who practise it will get huge amount of rewards. So again, the question is, knowing all those things about mutah, why is that shia always respond as if it is one of the most wicked, filthy, promiscuous act they could ever done? So whats the deal?

It's all about what and how you ask and what and how you present or put forward. This can change things immensely. Take a good look at your starting post, what and how you asked. I'm not going to repeat or spell it out for you. This tells once nature and intention.

As far as Mutah is concerned go and do some research on it. There are plenty of sites that can provide you with information on it. Rather than having the intention of toying and playing. You're not a child and I ain't stupid either.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 05, 2017, 09:44:38 PM
As far as Mutah is concerned go and do some research on it. There are plenty of sites that can provide you with information on it. Rather than having the intention of toying and playing. You're not a child and I ain't stupid either.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Akhi, I notice that you don't like the tone that the OP asked his question, but because I am interested in what he was asking, I was hoping you can have the conversation with me instead of him.

My research, may Allah guide you and I to that which He loves and approves of, has led me to believe that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act in the Ja'fari Madhhab.  Yet, me experience with Ja'faris, and your posts are an example of this, tend to show a very defensive nature to the act.  The question that non-Ja'faris tend to have is, if the act is recommended; then why isn't it more prevalent in Ja'fari culture?  Why is it that simply asking about it gets this extremely defensive reaction?

I hope you understand my question and my concerns, brother.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 05, 2017, 10:45:15 PM
وروي (أن المؤمن لا يكمل حتى يتمتع
And narrated to me(narrator): "Indeed the believer is not complete till he does mutah." ( Man la yahdhuruhul faqih, Sheikh Sadooq, vol 3, page 466, hadith number 4613]

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 06, 2017, 02:33:16 AM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Akhi, I notice that you don't like the tone that the OP asked his question, but because I am interested in what he was asking, I was hoping you can have the conversation with me instead of him.

My research, may Allah guide you and I to that which He loves and approves of, has led me to believe that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act in the Ja'fari Madhhab.  Yet, me experience with Ja'faris, and your posts are an example of this, tend to show a very defensive nature to the act.  The question that non-Ja'faris tend to have is, if the act is recommended; then why isn't it more prevalent in Ja'fari culture?  Why is it that simply asking about it gets this extremely defensive reaction?

I hope you understand my question and my concerns, brother.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Firstly you both are using the method of asking. But there is a difference, you want to know and he wants to toy. Or whatever his intentions are. Evidence, take a look at your posts. Look at yours and how you have asked and put forward then take a look at his. Read his first and opening post.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 06, 2017, 02:42:17 AM
Firstly you both are using the method of asking. But there is a difference, you want to know and he wants to toy. Or whatever his intentions are. Evidence, take a look at your posts. Look at yours and how you have asked and put forward then take a look at his. Read his first and opening post.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

That's why I said ignore him and have the conversation with me.  I personally find it very strange that the Ja'fari Madhhab promotes Mut'ah as such a virtuous deed and yet, discussions about it result in a very defensive response.  Can you think of any Sunan that are on the level of Mut'ah for the Ja'afri Madhhab that the rest of the Muslims would be so defensive about?  Especially when discussing with other Muslims?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 06, 2017, 05:48:46 AM
There two fiqhi opinions for the 12er Shia. One is its Sunnah, and the other is that it is Mubah.


As for the 12er Shia fiqh we have contradictions such as Muta being conditional marriage or a Sunnah. Which one is it?


From Risalat Al Mutah by Sh. Mufid,

And by this isnad from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Musa b. `Ali b. Muhammad al-Hamdani from a man he named from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: There is not a man who does mut`a then does ghusl but that Allah creates from every drop (of water) that drops from him seventy angels who seek forgiveness for him until the day of the resurrection, and who curse the avoider of it until the Hour rises. And this is but a little of a lot in this meaning

One must also be careful when doing it as there are also narrations which state that one should not do it if they are needless of it, such as,

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from `Ali b. Yaqtin. He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام about mut`a. So he said: What do you have to do with that when Allah has made you needless of it.

And in another narration, the Imam speaks of the need to preserve the image of the Shia,

And from them from Sahl from `Ali b. Asbat and Muhammad b. al-Husayn all from al-Hakam b. Miskeen from `Ammar. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me and Sulayman b. Khalid: I have forbidden mut`a upon you two by me so long as you remain in Madina, for you have increased your entering in upon me and I fear that they take you and it be said: These are the companions of Ja`far

Both narrations from Wasail Shia under the chapter, "Dislike of mut`a when one is free of need from it and it involves abomination or the corruption of the women"
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 06, 2017, 08:01:41 PM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

That's why I said ignore him and have the conversation with me.  I personally find it very strange that the Ja'fari Madhhab promotes Mut'ah as such a virtuous deed and yet, discussions about it result in a very defensive response.  Can you think of any Sunan that are on the level of Mut'ah for the Ja'afri Madhhab that the rest of the Muslims would be so defensive about?  Especially when discussing with other Muslims?

If one asks for the intention and purpose of 'to get to know' like yourself then one can tell and explain. If the intention and purpose is to attack and undermine only then you will see the defensive side, not against Mut'ah but the one who is attacking.

Anyways, lets start off with my understanding of Mut'ah. Marriage is of two kinds, temporary and permanent. You either engage in a full time/permanent martial contract/agreement which is known as Nikah or a part time/temporary martial contract/agreement which is known as Mut'ah.

Both, Nikah and Mut'ah, have rules and regulations and there are circumstances attached to them. There is also a procedure/method concerning both. I believe that both were a common practice during the Prophet's (s) time and are according to Qoran and Sunah. But this will require evidence.

But first we need to understand by getting to know. Agreeing and accepting something is a later stage or you can say are different. If you understand something doesn't necessarily mean you accept and agree. Nikah is common and known so the issue is about Mut'ah.

A few questions first. Once you hit puberty, a girl starts to turn into a woman and a boy into a man. You have sexual desire which kicks in and grows. This is to do with nature and comes natural. Sexual desire or sexual appetite is based on what your body needs. It's a necessity of the body be it human or animal.

Now a general question how does one full fill this need? Yes, patience and control does play a major factor in all areas and parts of life. But as you grow older and time goes by how does one full fill this need? Your partner has past away and one has become a widow/widower, When it comes to your Sexual desire/appetite how does one full fill this need and you have children from your deceased partner.

I can give you many more examples.  There is only one way and that is Nikah/marriage. Hang on and wait a minute, marriage is a serious business. Marriage is not just about full filling Sexual need (appetite/desire). It's about finding the right partner, it's about starting a family, it's about building a house together and turning it into a home, it's about having children, it's about responsibility/commitment etc, it's about going through life and then growing old together.

So my question is, it doesn't matter who you are, what your situation/condition is and what ever the circumstances are, how does one full fill their sexual need (appetite/desire)? Not everyone is ready for marriage and taking on the responsibility and everything else that comes with it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 06, 2017, 09:39:43 PM
If one asks for the intention and purpose of 'to get to know' like yourself then one can tell and explain. If the intention and purpose is to attack and undermine only then you will see the defensive side, not against Mut'ah but the one who is attacking.

Anyways, lets start off with my understanding of Mut'ah. Marriage is of two kinds, temporary and permanent. You either engage in a full time/permanent martial contract/agreement which is known as Nikah or a part time/temporary martial contract/agreement which is known as Mut'ah.

Both, Nikah and Mut'ah, have rules and regulations and there are circumstances attached to them. There is also a procedure/method concerning both. I believe that both were a common practice during the Prophet's (s) time and are according to Qoran and Sunah. But this will require evidence.

But first we need to understand by getting to know. Agreeing and accepting something is a later stage or you can say are different. If you understand something doesn't necessarily mean you accept and agree. Nikah is common and known so the issue is about Mut'ah.

A few questions first. Once you hit puberty, a girl starts to turn into a woman and a boy into a man. You have sexual desire which kicks in and grows. This is to do with nature and comes natural. Sexual desire or sexual appetite is based on what your body needs. It's a necessity of the body be it human or animal.

Now a general question how does one full fill this need? Yes, patience and control does play a major factor in all areas and parts of life. But as you grow older and time goes by how does one full fill this need? Your partner has past away and one has become a widow/widower, When it comes to your Sexual desire/appetite how does one full fill this need and you have children from your deceased partner.

I can give you many more examples.  There is only one way and that is Nikah/marriage. Hang on and wait a minute, marriage is a serious business. Marriage is not just about full filling Sexual need (appetite/desire). It's about finding the right partner, it's about starting a family, it's about building a house together and turning it into a home, it's about having children, it's about responsibility/commitment etc, it's about going through life and then growing old together.

So my question is, it doesn't matter who you are, what your situation/condition is and what ever the circumstances are, how does one full fill their sexual need (appetite/desire)? Not everyone is ready for marriage and taking on the responsibility and everything else that comes with it.

(http://clipart-library.com/images/Aibr7qgET.jpg)
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 06, 2017, 10:29:29 PM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

*snip*
I believe that both were a common practice during the Prophet's (s) time and are according to Qoran and Sunah. But this will require evidence.

I hope you know, I'm not really interested in the validity of Mut'ah according to the Ja'fari madhhab and its' evidences.  There are ruling in each Madhhab (including my own) which I don't agree with or find to have weak evidences.  Hopefully, the discussion doesn't get sidetracked by this.

Quote
But first we need to understand by getting to know. Agreeing and accepting something is a later stage or you can say are different. If you understand something doesn't necessarily mean you accept and agree. Nikah is common and known so the issue is about Mut'ah.

I'm unfortunately getting the feeling that you are not going to address what I asked...

Quote
*snip*
So my question is, it doesn't matter who you are, what your situation/condition is and what ever the circumstances are, how does one full fill their sexual need (appetite/desire)? Not everyone is ready for marriage and taking on the responsibility and everything else that comes with it.

Unfortunately, instead of actually addressing my question, it seems you are trying to explain the reasons for Mut'ah in a VERY defensive way.  Again, I ask you, if you believe that this actions a) is recommended in the Sharee'ah, and b) is the BEST option for the scenarios you provided, then why the defensive nature to the questioning?

I believe that you realize, may Allah bless you, that what you're saying would never be accepted in any culture, religious or otherwise.  Which is why, even in cultures that are predominately Ja'afari, Mut'ah is still strictly taboo.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 07, 2017, 09:05:33 AM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

I hope you know, I'm not really interested in the validity of Mut'ah according to the Ja'fari madhhab and its' evidences.  There are ruling in each Madhhab (including my own) which I don't agree with or find to have weak evidences.  Hopefully, the discussion doesn't get sidetracked by this.

I'm unfortunately getting the feeling that you are not going to address what I asked...

Unfortunately, instead of actually addressing my question, it seems you are trying to explain the reasons for Mut'ah in a VERY defensive way.  Again, I ask you, if you believe that this actions a) is recommended in the Sharee'ah, and b) is the BEST option for the scenarios you provided, then why the defensive nature to the questioning?

I believe that you realize, may Allah bless you, that what you're saying would never be accepted in any culture, religious or otherwise.  Which is why, even in cultures that are predominately Ja'afari, Mut'ah is still strictly taboo.

I am answering your question but in detail. Lets talk about something which is in Sharia and is accepted by all. But when it comes to practicing it is not accepted by the majority or practiced. A man is allowed to have upto four wives at one time. Now tell me once married which wife or how many wives will allow her husband to have a second wife happily?

The husband will go off and remarry for what ever reason and the disturbance and discomfort this causes is unimaginable. I can give you many examples. This is not accepted by the vast majority and no woman will allow her husband to remarry. I'm afraid that is the culture and tradition of Muslims.

As far as Mutah is concerned and the Shia community, firstly there lack of knowledge, understanding and awareness regarding Mutah. Secondly there are good and bad people in every community, when something is misused and or abused it will send the wrong message and feeling and this will cause and have a negative effect.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 07, 2017, 03:57:26 PM
Mu'tah is a haalalised version of prostitution. 8)
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ijtaba on December 07, 2017, 04:57:28 PM
Mu'tah is a haalalised version of prostitution. 8)

So your saying when Prophet (s.a.w.w) permitted his Companions Mu'tah for 3 nights he actually permitted haalalised version of prostitution for 3 nights?

Narrated Salama bin Al-Akwa:
“In the year of Autas, Allah’s Messenger permitted a temporary marriage for three nights, but he prohibited it afterwards.” [Sahih Muslim]
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 07, 2017, 05:25:02 PM
Permitting something in exceptional circumstances is not the same thing as outright ecouraging, and endorsing the perverted practice. Your scholars for dollars are guilty for opening the window of Mu'tah for everyone on a full time basis.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ijtaba on December 07, 2017, 05:27:04 PM
Permitting something in exceptional circumstances is not the same thing as outright ecouraging, and endorsing the perverted practice. Your scholars for dollars are guilty for opening the window of Mu'tah for everyone on a full time basis.

Like Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Abbas (r.a)?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 07, 2017, 05:29:00 PM
Like Hadhrat Abdullah ibn Abbas (r.a)?

ibn Abbas was guilty of making a gross mistake. We do not hide from that.

If your read the narration carefuly, he only permitted under dire circumstances unlike your scholars for dollars, and your Imams. It wasn't a free license for anyone to pop their sprogs. 'Ali himself condemned him for this sinful mistake.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ijtaba on December 07, 2017, 05:53:23 PM
ibn Abbas was guilty of making a gross mistake. We do not hide from that.

If your read the narration carefuly, he only permitted under dire circumstances unlike your scholars for dollars, and your Imams. It wasn't a free license for anyone to pop their sprogs. 'Ali himself condemned him for this sinful mistake.

Permitting Mutah under dire circumstances is also gross/sinful mistake?

After Imam Ali (a.s) condemned ibn Abbas (r.a) for his (r.a) sinful mistake did ibn Abbas retract from his view/opinion of Mutah being halal in dire circumstances? If yes, then please provide me the evidence for this.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 07, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
Permitting Mutah under dire circumstances is also gross/sinful mistake?

After Imam Ali (a.s) condemned ibn Abbas (r.a) for his (r.a) sinful mistake did ibn Abbas retract from his view/opinion of Mutah being halal in dire circumstances? If yes, then please provide me the evidence for this.

Paaji, this topic has been discussed on these forums.

Use the search option.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 07, 2017, 06:07:57 PM
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/why-did-ibn-abbas-and-jabir-ibn-%27abd-allah-say-mut%27ah-was-halal/

http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/02/19/companions-believed-mutah/
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 07, 2017, 09:29:34 PM
Permitting something in exceptional circumstances is not the same thing as outright ecouraging, and endorsing the perverted practice. Your scholars for dollars are guilty for opening the window of Mu'tah for everyone on a full time basis.

So you're saying that the Prophet (s) made prostitution Halal in the form of Mutah due to exceptional circumstances? Is this what you're saying? You did liken Mutah to prostitution.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 07, 2017, 10:15:40 PM
So you're saying that the Prophet (s) made prostitution Halal in the form of Mutah due to exceptional circumstances? Is this what you're saying? You did liken Mutah to prostitution.

It's not considered prostitution when you enforce it under exceptional circumstances. It's prostituton from the point the Prophet (SAW) made it haram. It's prostitution when you indulge just to fulfill each other's perverted fantasies, and not because you're on the verge of insanity.

Mu'tah like slavery was a perverted practiced from the days of jahiliyah. The Prophet (SAW) did not encourage nor forbid it upfront, but later started to restrict it until he eventually forbidded it unconditionally. This was a method the Prophet (SAW) applied with many vices like alcohol. 
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 08, 2017, 04:42:53 AM
The issue with Muta is we have two extreme opinions. 12ers curse Umar for stopping it, and Sunnis call it prostitution. These are both extreme opinions. If Umar stopped Muta then he did a noble act. Imagine all the temptation in the world and you are still controlling yourself. Then the other side is with today's society and way people are, Muta can be solution since it is a contract. I personally prefer having self control, and being rewarded for it. Then again if a someone does muta, I believe its falls in the category of mubah.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 08, 2017, 04:44:02 AM


Mu'tah like slavery was a perverted practiced from the days of jahiliyah. The Prophet (SAW) did not encourage nor forbid it upfront, but later started to restrict it until he eventually forbidded it unconditionally. This was a method the Prophet (SAW) applied with many vices like alcohol. 

That's exactly what it is. Today we returned to the jaliyah stage where a man sees naked women all the time.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 08, 2017, 01:27:18 PM
how desperate shia is to even try to compare shia mutah with islamic marriage? Its like when shia using what Amr RA did when he was threathened with death to justify shia taqiyya which is basically lying anytime anywhere in any circumstances. Your mutah is not the same with what Ibn Abbas RA condone. Ibn Abbas would probably likened shia mutah to prostitution too. Shia mutah is taboo and that is why shia are so defensive everytime anyone ask them about it. Ask any sunni if they marries more than 1 woman, you wont get the same angry reply, im sure many would say inshaAllah 😁. Shia should be proud and hope they can do lots of mutah, because they believe it is a virtuous act with a great rewards. Deep down most shia knows their version of mutah is a vile, despicable act of freesex, but their hate towards Umar is a curse for themselves.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 08, 2017, 10:06:40 PM
Mut'ah During Wartime

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 139:

Narrated Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet). "Shall we castrate ourselves?" But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: "O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you."

Mut'ah Banned by Umar

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 43:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Verse of muta was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But the man (omar) just expressed what his own mind suggested

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3250:

Abu Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (muta of Hajj and muta of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3248:

Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that jibir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh and during the time of Abi Bakr and 'Umar

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3249:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3261:

'Urwa b. Zabair reported that 'Abdullah b. Zubair stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying: Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as He has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favor of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn 'Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are an uncouth person, devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was practised during the lifetime of the leader of the pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, pbuh), and Ibn Zubair said to him: just do it yourselves, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones. Ibn Shihab said. Khalid b. Muhajir b. Saifullah informed me: While I was sitting in the company of a person, a person came to him and he asked for a religious verdict about Mut'a and he permitted him to do it.

Mut'ah During Life of Rasulullah

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3252:

Sabra Juhanni reported: Allah's Messenger pbuh permitted temporary marriage for us. So I and another person went out and saw a woman of Bana 'Amir, who was like a young long-necked she-camel. We presented ourselves to her (for contracting temporary marriage), whereupon she said: What dower would you give me? I said: My cloak. And my companion also said: My cloak. And the cloak of-my companion was superior to my cloak, but I was younger than he. So when she looked at the cloak of my companion she liked it, and when she cast a glance at me I looked more attractive to her. She then said: Well, you and your cloak are sufficient for me. I remained with her for three nights, and then Allah's Messenger pbuh said: He who has any such woman with whom he had contracted temporary marriage, he should let her off.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 09, 2017, 12:01:29 AM
Mut'ah During Wartime

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 139:

Narrated Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet). "Shall we castrate ourselves?" But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: "O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you."

Mut'ah Banned by Umar

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 43:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Verse of muta was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But the man (omar) just expressed what his own mind suggested

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3250:

Abu Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (muta of Hajj and muta of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3248:

Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that jibir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh and during the time of Abi Bakr and 'Umar

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3249:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3261:

'Urwa b. Zabair reported that 'Abdullah b. Zubair stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying: Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as He has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favor of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn 'Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are an uncouth person, devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was practised during the lifetime of the leader of the pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, pbuh), and Ibn Zubair said to him: just do it yourselves, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones. Ibn Shihab said. Khalid b. Muhajir b. Saifullah informed me: While I was sitting in the company of a person, a person came to him and he asked for a religious verdict about Mut'a and he permitted him to do it.

Mut'ah During Life of Rasulullah

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3252:

Sabra Juhanni reported: Allah's Messenger pbuh permitted temporary marriage for us. So I and another person went out and saw a woman of Bana 'Amir, who was like a young long-necked she-camel. We presented ourselves to her (for contracting temporary marriage), whereupon she said: What dower would you give me? I said: My cloak. And my companion also said: My cloak. And the cloak of-my companion was superior to my cloak, but I was younger than he. So when she looked at the cloak of my companion she liked it, and when she cast a glance at me I looked more attractive to her. She then said: Well, you and your cloak are sufficient for me. I remained with her for three nights, and then Allah's Messenger pbuh said: He who has any such woman with whom he had contracted temporary marriage, he should let her off.


You can do long copy & paste job and it is still a fact that shia mut'ah which is anytime anywhere in any situation is not the same to what was practised back then. Shia mutah is just a perverted freesex practise and understandably it is taboo and not many shia man/woman would ever want to get involved in that despicable, filthy acts. As for the ones who keep defending it, i bet you would be mad if your sister, daughter tell you that they want to practise that "noble & virtuous" act 😁
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 12:04:23 AM
You can do long copy & paste job and it is still a fact that shia mut'ah which is anytime anywhere in any situation is not the same to what was practised by the sahaba back then. Shia mutah is just a perverted freesex practise and understandably it is taboo and no shia man nor woman would ever want to get involved in that despicable, filthy acts. As for the ones who keep defending it, i bet you would be mad if your sister, daughter tell you that they want to practise that "noble & virtuous" act 😁

Don't hide behind copy and paste, talk about the material put forward. Comment on what is being presented, hadiths/narrations. And don't sound like a child and make everything personal.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 09, 2017, 12:06:15 AM
Don't hide behind copy and paste, talk about the material put forward. Comment on what is being presented, hadiths/narrations. And don't sound like a child and make everything personal.
The copy paster is you 😛
dont keep avoiding the question. You know yourself shia mutah is a filthy practise. So you would be so glad if your sister & daughter want to do it? 😁
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 12:30:26 AM
The copy paster is you 😛
dont keep avoiding the question. You know yourself shia mutah is a filthy practise. So you would be so glad if your sister & daughter want to do it? 😁

Lol. I know your game and stance. Get personal as much as you like. I will definitely not fall to your level. You won't get a reaction out of me regarding your personal stunts.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 12:32:47 AM
Sabra al-Juhanni reported on the authority of his father that while he was with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon hm) he said: 0 people, I had permitted you to contract temporary marriage with women…”

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3255
We read the following episode in Muwatta by Imam Malik:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Urwa ibn az-Zubayr that Khawla ibn Hakim came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, ”Rabia ibn Umayya made a temporary marriage with a woman and she…”

Muwatta Imam Malik, Book 28, Number 28.18.42
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 01:00:53 AM
The copy paster is you 😛
dont keep avoiding the question. You know yourself shia mutah is a filthy practise. So you would be so glad if your sister & daughter want to do it? 😁

Are you married? If yes then how many wives do you have? Only one? Well you're allowed up to four at any one time. Give a second marriage a thought and see what you're up against. Just trying to make a point.

You won't be getting any personal reaction out of me. I have character.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 09, 2017, 01:12:50 AM
@iceman,

You missed out some more hadiths regarding mut'ah from Sunni sources (or you might be doing cherry picking I should say). Those hadiths should be sufficient because they were narrated by none other than your esteemed Imam:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 527 :
Narrated by 'Ali bin Abi Talib
On the day of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle forbade the Mut'a (i.e. temporary marriage) and the eating of donkey-meat.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 432 :
Narrated by 'Ali
Allah's Apostle prohibited Al-Mut'a marriage and the eating of donkey's meat in the year of the Khaibar battle.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 50 :
Narrated by 'Ali
I said to Ibn 'Abbas, "During the battle of Khaibar the Prophet forbade (Nikah) Al-Mut'a and the eating of donkey's meat."

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Hadith Number 3264.
Chapter: Temporary marriage and its prohibition for all times to come.

Malik narrated this hadith on the authority of the same chain of transmitters that 'Ali b. Abi Talib said to a person: You are a person led astray; Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) forbade us (to do Mut'a), as is stated in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Yahya b. Malik.



Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3252:

Sabra Juhanni reported: Allah's Messenger pbuh permitted temporary marriage for us. So I and another person went out and saw a woman of Bana 'Amir, who was like a young long-necked she-camel. We presented ourselves to her (for contracting temporary marriage), whereupon she said: What dower would you give me? I said: My cloak. And my companion also said: My cloak. And the cloak of-my companion was superior to my cloak, but I was younger than he. So when she looked at the cloak of my companion she liked it, and when she cast a glance at me I looked more attractive to her. She then said: Well, you and your cloak are sufficient for me. I remained with her for three nights, and then Allah's Messenger pbuh said: He who has any such woman with whom he had contracted temporary marriage, he should let her off.

Another cherry picking. The very next hadith in Sahih Muslim relating the same incident and clearly clarifies "....I remained with her for three nights, and  then Allah's Messenger pbuh said: He who has any such woman with whom he had contracted temporary marriage, he should let her off."

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Hadith Number 3253 :

Rabi' b. Sabra reported that his father went on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) during the Victory of Mecca, and we stayed there for fifteen days (i.e. for thirteen full days and a day and a night), and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) permitted us to contract temporary marriage with women. So I and another person of my tribe went out, and I was more handsome than he, whereas he was almost ugly. Each one of us had a cloaks, My cloak was worn out, whereas the cloak of my cousin was quite new. As we reached the lower or the upper side of Mecca, we came across a young woman like a young smart long-necked she-camel. We said: Is it possible that one of us may contract temporary marriage with you? She said: What will you give me as a dower? Each one of us spread his cloak. She began to cast a glance on both the persons. My companion also looked at her when she was casting a glance at her side and he said: This cloak of his is worn out, whereas my cloak is quite new. She, however, said twice or thrice: There is no harm in (accepting) this cloak (the old one). So I contracted temporary marriage with her, and I did not come out (of this) until Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) declared it forbidden.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 09, 2017, 02:41:57 AM
@iceman

Why are you running scared from the 12th Imam rep thread?

Every shia seems to be like you hiding from it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 04:17:23 AM
@iceman,

You missed out some more hadiths regarding mut'ah from Sunni sources (or you might be doing cherry picking I should say). Those hadiths should be sufficient because they were narrated by none other than your esteemed Imam:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 527 :
Narrated by 'Ali bin Abi Talib
On the day of Khaibar, Allah's Apostle forbade the Mut'a (i.e. temporary marriage) and the eating of donkey-meat.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 432 :
Narrated by 'Ali
Allah's Apostle prohibited Al-Mut'a marriage and the eating of donkey's meat in the year of the Khaibar battle.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 50 :
Narrated by 'Ali
I said to Ibn 'Abbas, "During the battle of Khaibar the Prophet forbade (Nikah) Al-Mut'a and the eating of donkey's meat."

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Hadith Number 3264.
Chapter: Temporary marriage and its prohibition for all times to come.

Malik narrated this hadith on the authority of the same chain of transmitters that 'Ali b. Abi Talib said to a person: You are a person led astray; Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) forbade us (to do Mut'a), as is stated in the hadith transmitted on the authority of Yahya b. Malik.


Another cherry picking. The very next hadith in Sahih Muslim relating the same incident and clearly clarifies "....I remained with her for three nights, and  then Allah's Messenger pbuh said: He who has any such woman with whom he had contracted temporary marriage, he should let her off."

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Hadith Number 3253 :

Rabi' b. Sabra reported that his father went on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) during the Victory of Mecca, and we stayed there for fifteen days (i.e. for thirteen full days and a day and a night), and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) permitted us to contract temporary marriage with women. So I and another person of my tribe went out, and I was more handsome than he, whereas he was almost ugly. Each one of us had a cloaks, My cloak was worn out, whereas the cloak of my cousin was quite new. As we reached the lower or the upper side of Mecca, we came across a young woman like a young smart long-necked she-camel. We said: Is it possible that one of us may contract temporary marriage with you? She said: What will you give me as a dower? Each one of us spread his cloak. She began to cast a glance on both the persons. My companion also looked at her when she was casting a glance at her side and he said: This cloak of his is worn out, whereas my cloak is quite new. She, however, said twice or thrice: There is no harm in (accepting) this cloak (the old one). So I contracted temporary marriage with her, and I did not come out (of this) until Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) declared it forbidden.


CHERRY PICKING! Well they are cherries and that's what we're talking about. So what seems to be the problem? After all they are cherries. Isn't that good enough? 😀
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 04:22:23 AM
@iceman

Why are you running scared from the 12th Imam rep thread?

Every shia seems to be like you hiding from it.

Hang on a minute, in the jungle there is so much kicking off by a lot of hyenas and we only have few lions. So the lions are out numbered but there on to it. After all they are hyenas and what they do is within their nature.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 04:27:57 AM
Permitting something in exceptional circumstances is not the same thing as outright ecouraging, and endorsing the perverted practice. Your scholars for dollars are guilty for opening the window of Mu'tah for everyone on a full time basis.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, exceptional circumstances. This is exactly what Mutah is for. It's not a common thing or ordinary practice within Shia. You've answered it yourself. Why use something, manipulate it then blow it out of proportion and try to paint a bad picture about the Shia.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 09, 2017, 04:41:10 AM
So basically temporary marriage was allowed and it was practiced BUT, there is a BUT. But what? The Prophet (s) banned it or put a stop to it. Ok, certain people disagree with that. So how do we resolve this? Lets resolve it your way, any proof from the Quran that it was prohibited? 😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 09, 2017, 05:49:57 AM
So basically temporary marriage was allowed and it was practiced BUT, there is a BUT. But what? The Prophet (s) banned it or put a stop to it. Ok, certain people disagree with that. So how do we resolve this? Lets resolve it your way, any proof from the Quran that it was prohibited? 😊

Resolved it our way?? Our way is Quran and sunnah. If Prophet (saw) forbade it through his sayings (as shown previously), it is prohibited. THAT'S IS OUR WAY.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 09, 2017, 05:54:13 AM
That's exactly what it is. Today we returned to the jaliyah stage where a man sees naked women all the time.

Then, get married... 😑😌
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 09, 2017, 07:09:14 AM
Lol. I know your game and stance. Get personal as much as you like. I will definitely not fall to your level. You won't get a reaction out of me regarding your personal stunts.

seeing your reaction here, you know shia mutah is despicable. An act which shia says gives such a huuuuge rewards but yet gives shia such a shock & horror reaction when a simple question "have you done it?" was asked 😂😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 09, 2017, 07:17:14 AM
Are you married? If yes then how many wives do you have? Only one? Well you're allowed up to four at any one time. Give a second marriage a thought and see what you're up against. Just trying to make a point.

You won't be getting any personal reaction out of me. I have character.
😂 shia believes a man who did mutah once will be saved from the Hellfire, twice will be in the company of virtuous men in Jannah, but did it three times, they will be Prophet's companion in highest Jannah. And yet, shia feel angry and shock everytime. You sheeps should be doing mutah at least once. Be proud and unleash your sister & daughter and chase for that highest jannah. You know shia mutah in reality is just freesex 😂😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 10, 2017, 12:20:41 AM
seeing your reaction here, you know shia mutah is despicable. An act which shia says gives such a huuuuge rewards but yet gives shia such a shock & horror reaction when a simple question "have you done it?" was asked 😂😂

The shock and horror is towards the one who's asking, the way they're asking and the lack of character and  decency they have. Women, be it sisters or daughters, are never mentioned or brought in a conversation by a decent man with a bit of shame. There's a way of asking and holding a conversation which you clearly have no idea. 
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 10, 2017, 01:05:16 AM
😂 shia believes a man who did mutah once will be saved from the Hellfire, twice will be in the company of virtuous men in Jannah, but did it three times, they will be Prophet's companion in highest Jannah. And yet, shia feel angry and shock everytime. You sheeps should be doing mutah at least once. Be proud and unleash your sister & daughter and chase for that highest jannah. You know shia mutah in reality is just freesex 😂😂

You probably believe that the Shias hold such view, I don't. Mutah is not an open and common practice among Shias as is Nikah. It is permissible due to exceptional circumstances. It is just used by anti Shias to paint a bad pictures about Shiaism and to put people off.

As far as your questions are concerned I am more than happy to answer them. Not because of you but because of the mischief you're trying to create. If my sisters or daughters wanted to do it then would I be glad? I am going to answer this in two parts.

Firstly it's not want or wanting, it's about need. It's about exceptional circumstances and those who feel the need. My sisters, daughters or nieces don't feel the need or don't have those exceptional circumstances or the situation or condition where they feel the need.

Just because my sisters etc feel this way and have not or do not want to engage in Mutah doesn't mean it's bad or Haram. And those men and women who have exceptional circumstances or situation/condition and feel the need are not engaging in Haram, committing sin or doing anything wrong.

Due to exceptional circumstances if someone is on a situation or condition where they feel the need only then Mutah is better than engaging in Haram and committing sin. As far as I'm concerned,  no. I have never been engaged in Mutah. Why? Not because I think it's bad or strange but because I don't feel the need. Just as simple as that.

Secondly let me ask you this, you are allowed to have more than one wife. Yes sir. You can have up to four at any one time. Now if you decided to remarry, have a second wife then tell me would your first wife be glad about it? Would she be over the moon that my husband is going to follow the Prophet's (s) sunah? Would she be sending out and distributing your wedding cards? And if you had children out of your first marriage how would they feel? Would they be proud of you?

We do not believe that the Prophet (s) prohibited it. We don't believe he put a total stop to it and banned it. Why? Because why was it allowed in the first place? Answer, due to EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES. Ok. So why did the Prophet (s) ban it? Where did the EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES go? Did they suddenly fade away?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 10, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
It's like nutrition and medication. Nutrition is there and you take it. When it comes to food you have a choice and then it depends what you want, to eat. When it comes to medication the same thing and terms don't apply. Medication is taken only when needed and due to exceptional circumstances. Thanks for asking. Do some research. Get some knowledge and information rather than jumping up and down.😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 10, 2017, 01:23:24 AM
Then, get married... 😑😌

Its not easy in today's economy. Most people have to study till they are 22. On top of that marriage is just too expensive.
Also, in an Islamic society we were allowed to marry 4 women. Today its impossible to do that even in Muslim countries.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 10, 2017, 04:37:30 AM
You probably believe that the Shias hold such view, I don't. Mutah is not an open and common practice among Shias as is Nikah. It is permissible due to exceptional circumstances. It is just used by anti Shias to paint a bad pictures about Shiaism and to put people off.
Not really, its not non shia who believes how despicable shia mutah is. Even sane shia knows its just a despicable freesex act. Dont tell me about exceptional circumstances BS, because it cant be further from the truth.

If my sisters or daughters wanted to do it then would I be glad? I am going to answer this in two parts.
If i know theres an act with the same amount of rewards like shia mutah,  i will try my best to do it at least once. I definitely wont be defensive and mad when someone ask me if ive done it 😛

Firstly it's not want or wanting, it's about need. It's about exceptional circumstances and those who feel the need. My sisters, daughters or nieces don't feel the need or don't have those exceptional circumstances or the situation or condition where they feel the need.
cut the exceptional circumstances BS excuse. Shia mutah is allowed to be practise in any circumstances, just like shia taqiyya.

Just because my sisters etc feel this way and have not or do not want to engage in Mutah doesn't mean it's bad or Haram. And those men and women who have exceptional circumstances or situation/condition and feel the need are not engaging in Haram, committing sin or doing anything wrong.
no, im sure any chaste respectable shia woman will hate mut'ah to the bone.

Due to exceptional circumstances if someone is on a situation or condition where they feel the need only then Mutah is better than engaging in Haram and committing sin. As far as I'm concerned,  no. I have never been engaged in Mutah. Why? Not because I think it's bad or strange but because I don't feel the need. Just as simple as that.
this is the 3rd time you mention exceptional circumstances BS. This i shia anytime any ciecumstances version of mutah.

Secondly let me ask you this, you are allowed to have more than one wife. Yes sir. You can have up to four at any one time. Now if you decided to remarry, have a second wife then tell me would your first wife be glad about it? Would she be over the moon that my husband is going to follow the Prophet's (s) sunah? Would she be sending out and distributing your wedding cards? And if you had children out of your first marriage how would they feel? Would they be proud of you?
If do it once is promised jannah, twice to be with pious person in jannah and to do it 3 times will make me enter the highest jannah, i will definitely do it. But then again, some shia is so brain damaged and get offended when people ask why they didnt do mutah which they themselves believe is virtuous act.

We do not believe that the Prophet (s) prohibited it. We don't believe he put a total stop to it and banned it. Why? Because why was it allowed in the first place? Answer, due to EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES. Ok. So why did the Prophet (s) ban it? Where did the EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES go? Did they suddenly fade away?
😂 shia reasoning. Like i said, the fact is shia is allowed to practise it even when theres no exceptional circumstances, exactly the same like shia taqiyya. You cant use exceptional curcumstances excuse to get out of this mess
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 10, 2017, 03:57:39 PM


Firstly it's not want or wanting, it's about need. It's about exceptional circumstances and those who feel the need. My sisters, daughters or nieces don't feel the need or don't have those exceptional circumstances or the situation or condition where they feel the need.

Just because my sisters etc feel this way and have not or do not want to engage in Mutah doesn't mean it's bad or Haram. And those men and women who have exceptional circumstances or situation/condition and feel the need are not engaging in Haram, committing sin or doing anything wrong.

Due to exceptional circumstances if someone is on a situation or condition where they feel the need only then Mutah is better than engaging in Haram and committing sin. As far as I'm concerned,  no. I have never been engaged in Mutah. Why? Not because I think it's bad or strange but because I don't feel the need. Just as simple as that.

Secondly let me ask you this, you are allowed to have more than one wife. Yes sir. You can have up to four at any one time. Now if you decided to remarry, have a second wife then tell me would your first wife be glad about it? Would she be over the moon that my husband is going to follow the Prophet's (s) sunah? Would she be sending out and distributing your wedding cards? And if you had children out of your first marriage how would they feel? Would they be proud of you?



1) That is such a wrong answer that I don’t know what you was thinking when responding with this answer, it’s wrong on many levels.

Exceptional circumstances? That could only mean one thing someone who has the urge all day long and can’t hold it and it becomes an exceptional circumstance, a nympho a xxx addict, someone who needs SATISFYING!.....and your answer is to satisfy that exceptional circumstance you Shias do mutah.

It’s all about the need, but I see plenty even my own Shia friends having girlfriends/boyfriends and you ask them about mutah.......”urhg”...”nasty”....”astaghfirullah “.......even ....”it’s prostitution bro.”
They are fulfilling their needs by using western standards and not Islamic (shiia Islam).
I don’t know which bubble you are in.
Maybe in your eyes they may not know Shia Islam......judging by your answers I think it’s best they didn’t.

It’s not nice full stop and whether you have needs or not there are ways to confront such problems............

2) Remarry.....a good pious woman will let you REMARRY on Islamic terms as long as you can be equal with both and the same......Obviously it’s not perfect and you do have problems. In marriage respect comes before needs.Its more respectful to offer life companionship and love rather than a one night stand contract “without strings attached”.



You have Shiites galore running about having many different girlfriends changing like they change clothes......yet they are dumbfounded on answering mutah......so these Shiites that have needs why don’t they mutah instead?
If it has benefits and is a blessed act in Shia Islam....why not go to reap the benefits?

What’s up with da yooth man!!!

Which is easier for them to bring home?
A girlfriend or a temporary mutah contract for exceptional circumstances??

I know many Shia would choose the first.

Like a brother said.....these exceptional circumstances seem to be your main answer or a cop out answer, either way it doesn’t make sense.

Try answering from another angle......maybe???

😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 10, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
Not really, its not non shia who believes how despicable shia mutah is. Even sane shia knows its just a despicable freesex act. Dont tell me about exceptional circumstances BS, because it cant be further from the truth.
If i know theres an act with the same amount of rewards like shia mutah,  i will try my best to do it at least once. I definitely wont be defensive and mad when someone ask me if ive done it 😛
cut the exceptional circumstances BS excuse. Shia mutah is allowed to be practise in any circumstances, just like shia taqiyya.
no, im sure any chaste respectable shia woman will hate mut'ah to the bone.
this is the 3rd time you mention exceptional circumstances BS. This i shia anytime any ciecumstances version of mutah.
If do it once is promised jannah, twice to be with pious person in jannah and to do it 3 times will make me enter the highest jannah, i will definitely do it. But then again, some shia is so brain damaged and get offended when people ask why they didnt do mutah which they themselves believe is virtuous act.
😂 shia reasoning. Like i said, the fact is shia is allowed to practise it even when theres no exceptional circumstances, exactly the same like shia taqiyya. You cant use exceptional curcumstances excuse to get out of this mess

I'm not surprised by the illiterate response. You asked and I answered. But  you deliberately left an important point out. Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time but why was it prohibited? Why was it banned? What was the reason for it?

It was permissible and practiced due to exceptional circumstances but what happened to those exceptional circumstances? Were they temporary? Do we not have the same exceptional circumstances after Mutah was banned?

Or these days do we not have exceptional circumstances? This is the kind of discussion I like and want. And this is what I would like you to comment on. But with your behaviour and attitude based on your mentality, I don't think you can engage in a civilised and pleasant discussion.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 10, 2017, 08:40:23 PM
Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time and the reason and purpose was 'EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES'. This is absolute and clear. Now why did the Prophet (s) all of a sudden prohibit it? When it comes to Hadiths and Narrations there are strong and weak. Some are accepted and some not. We believe the Prophet (s) did not prohibit Mutah and you claim he did.

Give me a solid argument. 1, Do you have or can you give me anything from the Qoran that Mutah is prohibited? And 2, If the Prophet (s) did prohibit Mutah then WHY? Come on Hadrami, lets here it. Give me a solid argument rather bagging and bashing the Shias with your immature and out of character attitude and behaviour.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 11, 2017, 07:32:00 AM
Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time and the reason and purpose was 'EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES'. This is absolute and clear.

With in the 12er Shia school are you sure its only for EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES? Do you have hadith?

Also, in the 19 minute mark Rajabali says its execption, but the 12er Shia make it sound like its sunnah and rewarding. So if it rewarding why it is exceptional?

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on December 11, 2017, 07:48:26 AM
With in the 12er Shia school are you sure its only for EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES? Do you have hadith?

Also, in the 19 minute mark Rajabali says its execption, but the 12er Shia make it sound like its sunnah and rewarding. So if it rewarding why it is exceptional?
....

Among many other things, it is common for Shia couples to do Mut'ah marriage in lieu of the 'Engagement' period. Some even marry their pre-pubescent daughters off in Mu'tah for a very short time in order that formalities be completed (like a man needs to write he is 'Married' in his official papers). That does not sound exceptional to me. Also, the nature of marriage in the Twelver religion, of there not being a requirement for witnesses does raise many questions with respect to Mut'ah as do the questions one asks the prospective Mut'ah partner, but that is another issue.

I am sure those of us around Shias can bring up many more examples; all in all, it is not exceptional in their milieu.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 12:56:02 PM
With in the 12er Shia school are you sure its only for EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES? Do you have hadith?

Also, in the 19 minute mark Rajabali says its execption, but the 12er Shia make it sound like its sunnah and rewarding. So if it rewarding why it is exceptional?



Allow me to answer this. First of all when it comes to Ahle Sunah scholars and books written by them, you have many. And I mean many. Now if I selected one book and pointed out something from that book that, 'look what is written here' or I pick one Suni scholar and point out his statement based on his understanding and point of view that, 'look what this scholar has said',

then try to implement this on the entire Ahle Sunah and assume that this is part of Ahle Sunah belief and faith and every Suni accepts and believes in this then, would this be true? I'm I doing the right thing? Is this acceptable?

The answer obviously is NO. There are a lot of things in books written by Ahle Sunah scholars and some of the books  are even considered heavily AUTHENTIC but are not accepted. Suni people will turn around and say and have said,

"yes this book is authentic and reliable but I'm sorry we don't accept that bit. Or that bit is considered weak or shady. The same thing applies to Suni scholars. Some scholars are even rejected if not bits and pieces of what they've said or written.

Exactly the same applies to the Shia. I have an open mind. I am sensible and understanding. And I'd like to remain this way. I discuss and debate with reason and logic.

Listen up, I/we consider Qoran to be 100% authentic. No other book has the same status and recognition as the Qoran. I/we believe in Allah and Allah alone and accept every single thing from Allah.

Yes we do believe in the Prophet (s) and the 12 guides (Imams). But apart from this we have been told by our Imams and we are aware of this that, a lot will be put forward and presented that this is from the Prophet (s), he said this and this is from the Imam/s, they said that but it won't be from them.

When questioned about how to distinguish or how to know what is from them and what isn't, we were told to take what ever is presented to us with the label of the Prophet (s) or the Imam/s and measure it with the Qoran.

If it is exact and according to the Qoran, you can find something in the Qoran to justify it and back it up then accept and take it. Otherwise 'SLAM IT AGAINST THE WALL', in other words REJECT IT.

This is one thing. I do not and I repeat, I DO NOT take everything that every single Shia scholar says or written in their book at face value.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 01:01:53 PM
ANY THING THAT IS PUT FORWARD AND PRESENTED TO ME ABOUT THE PROPHET (S) OR THE 12 SHIA IMAM OR FROM ANY SHIA BOOK NEEDS TO BE CLEARLY EXAMINED AND CLOSELY LOOKED AT.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 11, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
I'm not surprised by the illiterate response. You asked and I answered. But  you deliberately left an important point out. Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time but why was it prohibited? Why was it banned? What was the reason for it?

It was permissible and practiced due to exceptional circumstances but what happened to those exceptional circumstances? Were they temporary? Do we not have the same exceptional circumstances after Mutah was banned?

Or these days do we not have exceptional circumstances? This is the kind of discussion I like and want. And this is what I would like you to comment on. But with your behaviour and attitude based on your mentality, I don't think you can engage in a civilised and pleasant discussion.
Because my question is not about why shia does mutah. The reason you do mut'ah is irrelevant? For sure shia do mutah even when theres no exceptional circumstances. What is relevant which was my original question:

Why shia always reacted with shame or anger or being defensive everytime someone ask "How many times have you done mut'ah, the one of the most virtuous act according to shia's belief?"
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 11, 2017, 02:28:23 PM
Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time and the reason and purpose was 'EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES'. This is absolute and clear. Now why did the Prophet (s) all of a sudden prohibit it? When it comes to Hadiths and Narrations there are strong and weak. Some are accepted and some not. We believe the Prophet (s) did not prohibit Mutah and you claim he did.

Give me a solid argument. 1, Do you have or can you give me anything from the Qoran that Mutah is prohibited? And 2, If the Prophet (s) did prohibit Mutah then WHY? Come on Hadrami, lets here it. Give me a solid argument rather bagging and bashing the Shias with your immature and out of character attitude and behaviour.
You idiot, again it doesnt matter whether you believe its halal and i believe its haram. Why do shia have to be angry when someone ask that question? Its definitely because you are ashamed. How can anyone be ashamed when someone ask if he has done a "virtuous act"? :D
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 04:07:35 PM
You idiot, again it doesnt matter whether you believe its halal and i believe its haram. Why do shia have to be angry when someone ask that question? Its definitely because you are ashamed. How can anyone be ashamed when someone ask if he has done a "virtuous act"? :D

First of all don't call me an idiot. WATCH AND CONTROL THAT MOUTH OF YOURS.

Answer what is being asked. If you can't then stop jumping up and down or diverting attention.

Why did the Prophet (s) prohibit Mutah? What was the reason and purpose to ban It?

Can you or anyone provide me with clear and direct evidence from the Qoran that Mutah is prohibited?

The Shias are not hesitant or ashamed of any question asked or point raised. That problem is on your side.

I have clearly mentioned and addressed everything put forward and asked. You're playing the avoiding and diverting game.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 11, 2017, 08:11:57 PM
Allow me to answer this. First of all when it comes to Ahle Sunah scholars and books written by them, you have many. And I mean many. Now if I selected one book and pointed out something from that book that, 'look what is written here' or I pick one Suni scholar and point out his statement based on his understanding and point of view that, 'look what this scholar has said',

then try to implement this on the entire Ahle Sunah and assume that this is part of Ahle Sunah belief and faith and every Suni accepts and believes in this then, would this be true? I'm I doing the right thing? Is this acceptable?

The answer obviously is NO. There are a lot of things in books written by Ahle Sunah scholars and some of the books  are even considered heavily AUTHENTIC but are not accepted. Suni people will turn around and say and have said,

"yes this book is authentic and reliable but I'm sorry we don't accept that bit. Or that bit is considered weak or shady. The same thing applies to Suni scholars. Some scholars are even rejected if not bits and pieces of what they've said or written.

Exactly the same applies to the Shia. I have an open mind. I am sensible and understanding. And I'd like to remain this way. I discuss and debate with reason and logic.

Listen up, I/we consider Qoran to be 100% authentic. No other book has the same status and recognition as the Qoran. I/we believe in Allah and Allah alone and accept every single thing from Allah.

Yes we do believe in the Prophet (s) and the 12 guides (Imams). But apart from this we have been told by our Imams and we are aware of this that, a lot will be put forward and presented that this is from the Prophet (s), he said this and this is from the Imam/s, they said that but it won't be from them.

When questioned about how to distinguish or how to know what is from them and what isn't, we were told to take what ever is presented to us with the label of the Prophet (s) or the Imam/s and measure it with the Qoran.

If it is exact and according to the Qoran, you can find something in the Qoran to justify it and back it up then accept and take it. Otherwise 'SLAM IT AGAINST THE WALL', in other words REJECT IT.

This is one thing. I do not and I repeat, I DO NOT take everything that every single Shia scholar says or written in their book at face value.

Can you provide Hadith from 12er Shia books which state it's for exceptional circumstances?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 11, 2017, 11:57:21 PM
Can you provide Hadith from 12er Shia books which state it's for exceptional circumstances?

Was Mutah permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time or not? Answer, yes it was. Why? Due to and for exceptional circumstances. Why was Mutah suddenly prohibited? What was the reason for it? These are the main questions and the important part of the discussion which is being avoided. WHY?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 12, 2017, 02:06:03 AM
Was Mutah permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time or not? Answer, yes it was. Why? Due to and for exceptional circumstances. Why was Mutah suddenly prohibited? What was the reason for it? These are the main questions and the important part of the discussion which is being avoided. WHY?

You know the answer to these questions, as you have provided evidences from the Sunni hadith books. Do I need to repeat what you already stated? However, what about the 12er Shia books? Are you certian in the 12er Shia history this was a conditional marriage? If it was where are the hadith? Do they not exist. Is 12er Shia just a sect which has no backbone and like to play with the differences among the sahaba?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 02:33:43 AM
You know the answer to these questions, as you have provided evidences from the Sunni hadith books. Do I need to repeat what you already stated? However, what about the 12er Shia books? Are you certian in the 12er Shia history this was a conditional marriage? If it was where are the hadith? Do they not exist. Is 12er Shia just a sect which has no backbone and like to play with the differences among the sahaba?

These are cheap and low shots from you. We have much more than a backbone. We don't play with the differences among the Sahaba. In fact you do that. Anyways, where is your backbone? I don't need to provide you with anything because the matter is crystal clear.

Once again and here it comes, Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time. Now you claim it was prohibited by the Prophet (s) and all I want to know is WHY?

What was the reason and purpose for the Prophet (s) to prohibit it? Surely there must have been a reason for banning/disallowing it? This is where the conversation should move forward. The ball is on your court and you need to serve rather than throwing TANTRUMS.

If you feel you're loosing the argument then don't take it out on me. It's not my fault and problem if you've come to a dead end and can't digest reality and facts. The burden to provide reado and proof lies upon you. As far as we are concerned it was permissible and practiced then and it should be now for exactly the same reasons.

All the cheap and low tactics have been pulled and played by hadarami. Now you've run out of excuses. Either answer or own up.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 02:38:03 AM
Once again;

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 139:

Narrated Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet). "Shall we castrate ourselves?" But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: "O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you."

Mut'ah Banned by Umar

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 43:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Verse of muta was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But the man (omar) just expressed what his own mind suggested

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3250:

Abu Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (muta of Hajj and muta of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3248:

Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that jibir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh and during the time of Abi Bakr and 'Umar

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3249:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3261:

'Urwa b. Zabair reported that 'Abdullah b. Zubair stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying: Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as He has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favor of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn 'Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are an uncouth person, devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was practised during the lifetime of the leader of the pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, pbuh), and Ibn Zubair said to him: just do it yourselves, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones. Ibn Shihab said. Khalid b. Muhajir b. Saifullah informed me: While I was sitting in the company of a person, a person came to him and he asked for a religious verdict about Mut'a and he permitted him to do it.

Mut'ah During Life of Rasulullah

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3252:

Sabra Juhanni reported: Allah's Messenger pbuh permitted temporary marriage for us. So I and another person went out and saw a woman of Bana 'Amir, who was like a young long-necked she-camel. We presented ourselves to her (for contracting temporary marriage), whereupon she said: What dower would you give me? I said: My cloak. And my companion also said: My cloak. And the cloak of-my companion was superior to my cloak, but I was younger than he. So when she looked at the cloak of my companion she liked it, and when she cast a glance at me I looked more attractive to her. She then said: Well, you and your cloak are sufficient for me. I remained with her for three nights, and then Allah's Messenger pbuh said: He who has any such woman with whom he had contracted temporary marriage, he should let her off.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 02:55:34 AM
In a famous sermon,the second caliph 'Umar banned mutah after the death of the Prophet (PBUH) with the following words:

"Two mutah were practiced during the time of the Prophet [i.e. temporary marriage and mutat al-hajj],but I forbid both of them and will punish anyone who practices either."(tafsir al-Razi,volume2,page167)
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 03:00:57 AM
The first to make Mut’ah haraam was Umar”
Kitab al-Awail, page 1 by Hilal al-Hasan al-Askari (Madina, Saudi Arab)

Indeed, the Sahaba deemed Umar to be wrong when it came to this issue. We read in Tafseer Kabeer page 41:

Ali said: “Had Umar not banned Mut’ah then the only person to fornicate would be a wretched person.”
Tafseer al-Kabeer, Volume 4 Page 41

In Tafseer Kabeer:
Umar said: “Two Mut’ah’s existed during Rasulullah’s lifetime and I now prohibit both of them.”
Tafseer al Kabeer, by Imam Fakhr ul-Razi, Page 42 & 43
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 03:03:13 AM
We read in Zaad al Maad, Volume 2 page 205:
“Those who claim the verse was abrogated should be asked of the report in Sahih Muslim wherein Jabir stated ‘we contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and during the time of Abu Bakr until ‘Umar forbade it in the case of ‘Amr b. Huraith“.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 03:06:39 AM
Imam of Ahle Sunnah Abu Auwanah Yaqoob bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim al-Nisaburi al-Isfraeini (d. 316 H) popularly known as Abu Auwanah records the following in his book Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 7 page 159 Hadith 2713:

“Yaqoob bin Sufyan – Amr bin Asim – Hamaam – Qatadah – Abi Nadhra said: ‘I said to Jabir bin Abdullah that Ibn Abbas permits Mut’ah while Ibn al-Zubair prohibits it. He (Jabir) replied: ‘It is through me that this hadith has been circulated, I performed Mut’ah along with Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and a verse was revealed regarding it but then when Umar bin al-Khatab become the caliph, he addressed the people and said: ‘The Quran is the same Quran, the apostle is the same apostle, and there existed two types of Mut’ah at the time of Allah’s apostle, I forbid both and will punish whoever performs them, one is the Mut’ah of Hajj, surely you have to separate your Hajj from your Umra, and the other is Mut’ah al-Nisa, if I catch any person who is married for an appointed duration (Mut’a), I will certainly stone him (to death).”
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 12, 2017, 04:03:28 AM
These are cheap and low shots from you. We have much more than a backbone. We don't play with the differences among the Sahaba. In fact you do that. Anyways, where is your backbone? I don't need to provide you with anything because the matter is crystal clear.

okay if you have a backbone then where are the 12er Shia hadith? Why are you being a coward? Please provide it.

Quote
I don't need to provide you with anything because the matter is crystal clear.
Where is it crystal clear in the 12er Shia hadith books that Muta is done in exceptional circumstances.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 12, 2017, 04:04:34 AM
Once again;

Once again not even a single 12er Shia hadith. As I said you 12er Shia are like jellyfish. You just know how to sting others, but when its comes to bringing proof from your own books, you have no backbone.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 12, 2017, 04:05:48 AM
==

Ali said: “Had Umar not banned Mut’ah then the only person to fornicate would be a wretched person.”
Tafseer al-Kabeer, Volume 4 Page 41


This hadith attributed to Ali is fabricated. It has a broken chain.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 12, 2017, 04:11:04 AM
Iceman I am not here to argue whether Muta is haraam or halaal. There are Sunni hadith which state is halaal as presented by you. This does not make a loser in anyway. I am  aware that the sahaba differed in this matter. However, what I am interested is do the 12er Shia have hadith where it states Muta is an exception marriage.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 12, 2017, 04:44:11 AM
First of all don't call me an idiot. WATCH AND CONTROL THAT MOUTH OF YOURS.

Answer what is being asked. If you can't then stop jumping up and down or diverting attention.
I can call a sheep as it is, an idiot. You are being asked why youre angry when someone ask you about mutah and then answer mutah is halal bla bla bla. My question is not about halal & haram idiot. My question why shia are always angry & defensive when it comes to mutah if its really halal & virtuous act? Start answering the question
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 12:01:14 PM
I can call a sheep as it is, an idiot. You are being asked why youre angry when someone ask you about mutah and then answer mutah is halal bla bla bla. My question is not about halal & haram idiot. My question why shia are always angry & defensive when it comes to mutah if its really halal & virtuous act? Start answering the question

So you call a sheep what it is. OK. Point taken. You're talking to a sheep which are idiots and that is me. So you must be a sheep as well since your talking to me. Or have you learned the language of sheep, that's why you're talking to me. 😊

I wasn't angry, I only pointed out your behaviour and attitude when it comes to asking, discussing etc. Manners, which you certainly don't have any. And I'm not surprised either. I answered what you asked now it's your turn and you're avoiding.

People are watching, they are reading and listening, and you're not doing yourself or your faith, what ever that might be, any favours by avoiding, distracting, jumping up and down, running away from the main discussion.

You can't get the better of me no matter how hard you try with these immature and childish gaming tactics. What's your age? Your behaviour and attitude tells me a lot.

This is a question to HADRAMI,

Mutah was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time, it is claimed by HADRAMI and his faith, Ahle Sunah, that Mutah was prohibited by the Prophet (s) during his lifetime. I want to know WHY? What was the reason and purpose for the Prophet (s) to all of a sudden ban what is permissible and practiced? WHY?

Can you provide me any kind of evidence from the Qoran that what was permissible and practiced was all of a sudden banned and why?

This is my ultimate challenge to HADRAMI and his faith and belief to step forward and be a man and answer me those questions so we can forward this discussion.

I and the people want clear and straight answers.So come on, enough distraction and diversion from you. Lets here it hot shot. own up. Remember people are listening and watching.

I don't want any links etc. I want you HADRAMI or in fact any of you to step up to me. Let me see what you really have. I believe you must have something for me and the people. After all, all the ranting and the raving, the jumping and hopping, all the noise and tantrums is from your side and end.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 12:17:35 PM
okay if you have a backbone then where are the 12er Shia hadith? Why are you being a coward? Please provide it.
Where is it crystal clear in the 12er Shia hadith books that Muta is done in exceptional circumstances.

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR and here is the evidence,

BOTH PARTIES 100% AGREE WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT IT WAS PERMISSIBLE AND PRACTICED DURING THE PROPHET'S (S)  TIME.

There's your evidence. Now you need to put a stop to your gaming tactics of avoiding and diverting. The evidence is right there and in front of you. Here it is again incase you've missed due to your ignorance.

MUTAH WAS PERMISSIBLE AND PRACTICED DURING THE PROPHET'S TIME.

Either deny this and only then we go into a completely different direction. Only then the discussion takes a different turn. I will not let you get away with these gaming tactics.

Allah allowed it (mutah) and it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time. We go on from here. WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED FROM HERE. This is where our discussion moves on.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 12:58:17 PM
Iceman I am not here to argue whether Muta is haraam or halaal. There are Sunni hadith which state is halaal as presented by you. This does not make a loser in anyway. I am  aware that the sahaba differed in this matter. However, what I am interested is do the 12er Shia have hadith where it states Muta is an exception marriage.

Thank you very much for bringing something new and fresh to the discussion. Now we're talking about whether it (mutah) is Halal or Haram. There is a difference in opinion now. Is this correct?

First let me give you my perspective so that this doesn't come into yours or anyone's mind that I avoid.

Mutah is permissible and practiced according to the Shia just as it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time.

Why is it permissible and practiced according to the Shia? Exactly for the same reasons and purpose when it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time. And that is,

EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES

obviously.

Now evidence, proof, justification etc.

Here is a question we need to ask ourselves based on information and statistics due to reality and facts.

And here comes the question;

Is Mutah practiced in and by the Shia community OPENLY And COMMONLY?

Is Mutah practiced in and by the Shia community REGULARILY. and ORDINARILY just as Nikah, permanent marriage?

Go and do a survey, look into things openly, fairly and justly and you will come up with the information.

The answer is NO. I was asked a very simple and straightforward question about Mutah concerning my self and my sisters, daughters etc.

Being straightforward and open, I haven't engaged in Mutah, neither has any member of my family. As a Shia I am not aware of anyone who has engaged in Mutah and I don't know any Shia who has.

This doesn't mean we are ashamed of Mutah or we think it's embarrassing to engage or it is seen as something terrible and horrible or we think it's Haram.

I need to clear any misunderstanding here. Mutah is permissible and practiced according to the Shia just as it was in the Prophet's (s) time and for exactly the same reasons and purpose. And because it is not practiced within and by the Shia on a common and regular basis clearly tells you it's based on exceptional circumstances.

Otherwise it would be practiced commonly and openly.

Mutah is there only for exceptional circumstances and is for those who need it based on there situation and condition. Those few and I repeat few who do engage based on the criteria and procedure are not committing Haram or engaging in any sin. Surely not according to Allah and his Messenger (s).

The rulers who suddenly merged out of the blue after the Prophet (s), may be it's Haram according to them and those who engage in Mutah might be sinning according to them but definitely not according to Allah and his Messenger (s).

Mutah is better and good for you rather than getting carried away based on desperate and difficult circumstances and engaging in Haram and sinful acts.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 04:11:35 PM
According to Islam a man can marry more than once without ending his first marriage, without divorcing his first wife. It is permissible for a man to have upto 4 wives at one time. This is also Sunah of the Prophet (s).

Why is this disliked within the Muslim community? A lot of men will not remarry while keeping their first marriage because it will cause headache and heartache. Their first wife and her relations will not accept this.

For a man to go for a second wife is like going through he'll or a never ending nightmare. Most men will not go for a second wife because they will upset or ruin their first marriage. Those who do or think of doing will be threatened with or will go through divorce and will be looked at disgracefully.

If they have children from their first marriage they will not have the same relationship with those children. Their life will be turned upside down if they even think of going for a second wife let alone third or fourth. Why is something permissible in Islam but is so disliked amongst the community. And if it is thought of threats and abuse will start. And if done then world war three has just begun.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 12, 2017, 08:09:53 PM
Thank you very much for bringing something new and fresh to the discussion. Now we're talking about whether it (mutah) is Halal or Haram. There is a difference in opinion now. Is this correct?

First let me give you my perspective so that this doesn't come into yours or anyone's mind that I avoid.

Mutah is permissible and practiced according to the Shia just as it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time.

Why is it permissible and practiced according to the Shia? Exactly for the same reasons and purpose when it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time. And that is,

EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES

obviously.

Now evidence, proof, justification etc.

Here is a question we need to ask ourselves based on information and statistics due to reality and facts.

And here comes the question;

Is Mutah practiced in and by the Shia community OPENLY And COMMONLY?

Is Mutah practiced in and by the Shia community REGULARILY. and ORDINARILY just as Nikah, permanent marriage?

Go and do a survey, look into things openly, fairly and justly and you will come up with the information.

The answer is NO. I was asked a very simple and straightforward question about Mutah concerning my self and my sisters, daughters etc.

Being straightforward and open, I haven't engaged in Mutah, neither has any member of my family. As a Shia I am not aware of anyone who has engaged in Mutah and I don't know any Shia who has.

This doesn't mean we are ashamed of Mutah or we think it's embarrassing to engage or it is seen as something terrible and horrible or we think it's Haram.

I need to clear any misunderstanding here. Mutah is permissible and practiced according to the Shia just as it was in the Prophet's (s) time and for exactly the same reasons and purpose. And because it is not practiced within and by the Shia on a common and regular basis clearly tells you it's based on exceptional circumstances.

Otherwise it would be practiced commonly and openly.

Mutah is there only for exceptional circumstances and is for those who need it based on there situation and condition.


Can you show me Hadith from 12er Shia books where it's for exceptional circumstances only?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 09:01:24 PM
Can you show me Hadith from 12er Shia books where it's for exceptional circumstances only?

I'm absolutely sure my questions can't be answered. Now what are we left with? Oh yes, me answering and dealing with everything you throw out.

Can you tell me if Mutah isn't down to exceptional circumstances then what is it for? Is Mutah a common practice according to the Shia? Do you see Mutah done on a regular basis by the Shia community? Is Mutah an ordinary act amongst the Shia? You and I both know that the obvious answer is NO.

Shia or Suni books might be very important to you but not to me. I believe in what is absolute and legitimate. And this is what's absolute and legitimate that MUTAH was PERMISSIBLE and PRACTICED during the Prophet's (s) time.

Now you need to provide me, as well as the rest of the Muslim Ummah, why MUTAH was PROHIBITED and the reason and purpose of why it was suddenly DISALLOWED. Forget about the books and the Scholars from both sides and concentrate on the book of Allah and on logic and reason.

Why on earth was a permissible act prohibited? I need to know. We need to know. On addition to this,

We have the armed forces of Muslim countries and you have married men who are called out to duty in the state of emergency and have to work in extremely disastrous conditions and difficult circumstances. Be it air, land or sea. The Army, the navy or the air force. Their length and time of duty is unknown. What do they do in such circumstances? Where does their needs go?

You have widow/er. They have children from their deceased partner. What do you expect them to do? Get married again? Marriage has consequences along with responsibility and commitment. One can't engage in such responsibility and commitment all over again because their circumstances doesn't allow it.

I can give you many many examples as such which drastically effect people in all sectors of life. What do you expect people to do? During the Prophet's (s) time you had the Prophet (s) to look after the people, to protect their rights and full fill their needs. After his (s) death rulers got in, gained authority and power and assumed they knew better and started to make changes. 
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 12, 2017, 09:26:08 PM
May Allah forgive some of the brothers for their behavior, the akhlaq here is just...

Anyway, inshallah maybe I can still have some sort of discussion with iceman after all of this.  Since there has been so many posts since my last reply, I'm just going to not quote and reply to the general points.

1.  Comparing Mut'ah to polygamy does not work for multiple reasons.  Reason #1, Mut'ah is highly recommended in the Twelver Madhhab while polygamy ranges from recommended to merely mubah for mainstream Muslims, therefore you are comparing apples with oranges.  Reason #2, polygamy is in fact widely practiced among mainstream and Ja'fari Muslims all over the world.  In fact, it is practiced by non-Muslims all over the world as world.  There may be some stigma, but it is no where near to the level of Mut'ah.  Take for example the practice that some women do where they themselves will marry off their husbands to a second wife.  Now try to imagine that happening with a woman marrying her husband off for a Mut'ah marriage.  Such a thought is practically inconceivable.
2.  Comparing Mut'ah to secretly marrying a second wife is again, comparing apples to oranges.  Marrying a second wife secretly ranges from mubah to makrooh to haram among mainstream Muslims; no mainstream Muslim would claim there is reward in secretly marrying a second wife.
3.  Mut'ah being allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's lifetime doesn't help your case as ALL thing that were prohibited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم were technically practiced during his lifetime.  One example that Shi'as continuously bring up is Taraweeh.  We both agree that is was practiced during the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's lifetime, yet we disagree on the ruling afterwards.  You believe he prohibited it and it is an evil practice, much like our understanding of Mut'ah.
4.  Your appeal to Bukhari and Muslim is interesting.  Do you believe those two authors (including ALL Sunni books of hadeeth that mention this discussion) included these narrations because they believed Mut'ah to be halal?  Have you ever read the other narrations in the chapter?

Inshallah some of the people here clean up their manners.  I am with the Shi'is here that claiming that Mut'ah is prostitution is akin to accusing the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and ibn Abbas رضي الله عنهما of endorsing prostitution والعياذ بالله.  I would ban anyone who said that if I was a mod here.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 12, 2017, 10:48:27 PM
May Allah forgive some of the brothers for their behavior, the akhlaq here is just...
I
Anyway, inshallah maybe I can still have some sort of discussion with iceman after all of this.  Since there has been so many posts since my last reply, I'm just going to not quote and reply to the general points.

1.  Comparing Mut'ah to polygamy does not work for multiple reasons.  Reason #1, Mut'ah is highly recommended in the Twelver Madhhab while polygamy ranges from recommended to merely mubah for mainstream Muslims, therefore you are comparing apples with oranges.  Reason #2, polygamy is in fact widely practiced among mainstream and Ja'fari Muslims all over the world.  In fact, it is practiced by non-Muslims all over the world as world.  There may be some stigma, but it is no where near to the level of Mut'ah.  Take for example the practice that some women do where they themselves will marry off their husbands to a second wife.  Now try to imagine that happening with a woman marrying her husband off for a Mut'ah marriage.  Such a thought is practically inconceivable.
2.  Comparing Mut'ah to secretly marrying a second wife is again, comparing apples to oranges.  Marrying a second wife secretly ranges from mubah to makrooh to haram among mainstream Muslims; no mainstream Muslim would claim there is reward in secretly marrying a second wife.
3.  Mut'ah being allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's lifetime doesn't help your case as ALL thing that were prohibited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم were technically practiced during his lifetime.  One example that Shi'as continuously bring up is Taraweeh.  We both agree that is was practiced during the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's lifetime, yet we disagree on the ruling afterwards.  You believe he prohibited it and it is an evil practice, much like our understanding of Mut'ah.
4.  Your appeal to Bukhari and Muslim is interesting.  Do you believe those two authors (including ALL Sunni books of hadeeth that mention this discussion) included these narrations because they believed Mut'ah to be halal?  Have you ever read the other narrations in the chapter?

Inshallah some of the people here clean up their manners.  I am with the Shi'is here that claiming that Mut'ah is prostitution is akin to accusing the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and ibn Abbas رضي الله عنهما of endorsing prostitution والعياذ بالله.  I would ban anyone who said that if I was a mod here.

First of all thank you very much for a positive reply based on a pleasant attitude. I wanted a civilised and constructive discussion. And finally someone has stepped forward with exactly that. The attitude and behaviour, the manners (ikhlaq) of certain individuals is disappointing but that's it.

End the end of the day everyone's saying, doing, attitude, behaviour, manners, actions and deeds lie with them. It reflects them and their character, nature and upbringing. And they will be held responsible and  accountable.

I will get back to you.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 12, 2017, 11:27:23 PM
Inshallah some of the people here clean up their manners.  I am with the Shi'is here that claiming that Mut'ah is prostitution is akin to accusing the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and ibn Abbas رضي الله عنهما of endorsing prostitution والعياذ بالله.  I would ban anyone who said that if I was a mod here.
Will you tell other sunni who say taqiyya is for serial liar that they are insulting Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم? Shia loves comparing what Amr ibn Yasir did with their taqiyya too? Do you think he would endorse shia taqiyya? I dont think so.

The mut'ah that was halal is not the same mut'ah (freesex) that shia are practising. Dont give the false impression that they are the same mutah that ibn Abbas practise. As for expecting shia to answer, im sure they wont, because for years none have. Deep down they know shia mutah is
filthy practise 😆
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on December 13, 2017, 01:10:41 AM
I'm absolutely sure my questions can't be answered. Now what are we left with? Oh yes, me answering and dealing with everything you throw out.
This is a topic for 12er Shia view. If you have questions start you own topic.


Quote
Can you tell me if Mutah isn't down to exceptional circumstances then what is it for? Is Mutah a common practice according to the Shia? Do you see Mutah done on a regular basis by the Shia community? Is Mutah an ordinary act amongst the Shia? You and I both know that the obvious answer is NO.
To be honest I don't know the 12er Shia view. In fact, the hadith I have read from your books an it gives you an open ticket with rewards to do muta. Its not an exceptional marriage. Its an encouraged sunnah in your books. So again please show me your view supported by 12er Shia hadith.

Quote
Shia or Suni books might be very important to you but not to me.
Then how do you follow the 12 Imams? Its comes from the 12er Shia books, so the hadith should be important. Aql is a fallible thought which can be rational or subjective.


Quote
Now you need to provide me,
Open a new topic.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 13, 2017, 08:19:33 PM
Will you tell other sunni who say taqiyya is for serial liar that they are insulting Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم? Shia loves comparing what Amr ibn Yasir did with their taqiyya too? Do you think he would endorse shia taqiyya? I dont think so.

There is no doubt that the claim that what Ammaar bin Yaasir رضي الله عنهما did is like the Ja'fari concept of taqiyyah is completely false.  Much like their claim that the 12 Imams not fighting for their right to be the Imam is equivalent to what the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم did at Hudaybiyyah.

Quote
The mut'ah that was halal is not the same mut'ah (freesex) that shia are practising. Dont give the false impression that they are the same mutah that ibn Abbas practise. As for expecting shia to answer, im sure they wont, because for years none have. Deep down they know shia mutah is filthy practise 😆

I was wondering what about the Ja'fari concept of Mut'ah is in your opinion worse than what was practiced by the Jahili Arabs?  From my understanding, they have conditions and other fiqhi rulings to prevent it from being "freesex", unlike the Jahili Arabs, who just used to practice it as a cultural practice without restrictions.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 13, 2017, 09:05:25 PM
May Allah forgive some of the brothers for their behavior, the akhlaq here is just...

Anyway, inshallah maybe I can still have some sort of discussion with iceman after all of this.  Since there has been so many posts since my last reply, I'm just going to not quote and reply to the general points.

1.  Comparing Mut'ah to polygamy does not work for multiple reasons.  Reason #1, Mut'ah is highly recommended in the Twelver Madhhab while polygamy ranges from recommended to merely mubah for mainstream Muslims, therefore you are comparing apples with oranges.  Reason #2, polygamy is in fact widely practiced among mainstream and Ja'fari Muslims all over the world.  In fact, it is practiced by non-Muslims all over the world as world.  There may be some stigma, but it is no where near to the level of Mut'ah.  Take for example the practice that some women do where they themselves will marry off their husbands to a second wife.  Now try to imagine that happening with a woman marrying her husband off for a Mut'ah marriage.  Such a thought is practically inconceivable.
2.  Comparing Mut'ah to secretly marrying a second wife is again, comparing apples to oranges.  Marrying a second wife secretly ranges from mubah to makrooh to haram among mainstream Muslims; no mainstream Muslim would claim there is reward in secretly marrying a second wife.
3.  Mut'ah being allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's lifetime doesn't help your case as ALL thing that were prohibited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم were technically practiced during his lifetime.  One example that Shi'as continuously bring up is Taraweeh.  We both agree that is was practiced during the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's lifetime, yet we disagree on the ruling afterwards.  You believe he prohibited it and it is an evil practice, much like our understanding of Mut'ah.
4.  Your appeal to Bukhari and Muslim is interesting.  Do you believe those two authors (including ALL Sunni books of hadeeth that mention this discussion) included these narrations because they believed Mut'ah to be halal?  Have you ever read the other narrations in the chapter?

Inshallah some of the people here clean up their manners.  I am with the Shi'is here that claiming that Mut'ah is prostitution is akin to accusing the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and ibn Abbas رضي الله عنهما of endorsing prostitution والعياذ بالله.  I would ban anyone who said that if I was a mod here.

First of all I didn't and wasn't comparing Mutah to Polygamy. I don't think you've read some of the posts. I was asked why Shia see Mutah as permissible but when asked about whether they've practiced it or not or how many times they or their women have done it then the Shia start to get embarrassed.

Certain people wanted to know why something was considered permissible (Mutah) by the Shia and they are quick to verbally defend and justify it but when speak or ask about practicing it then Shias get angry and see Mutah as something shameful, disgraceful and embarrassing.

This is what I commented on. I wasn't comparing Polygamy to Mutah but just put forward an example that this is also permissible but when it comes to practicing then it is seemed as something disgraceful, embarrassing and troublesome. That is going for a second wife. Forget about the third and don't even think about the 4th.

This was my point that having a second wife is permissible and also Sunah of the Prophet (s) but when it comes to practicing, going for a second wife is like starting world war 3. Why is Polygamy permissible but when it comes to practicing then it is shameful, embarrassing and troublesome for the majority.

This is the point Hadraami skipped as well as many others.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 13, 2017, 09:27:57 PM
Assalāmu `alaikum Warahmatullāhi Wabarakatuh brother Khaled.

If you search for brother Ebn Hussein's post, he has posted fatwas by Shia's high profile scholars giving permission for perverts to indulge in wide-range of sex episodes. After reading them then you'll come to the realisation, that only a nymphomaniac would entertain such perverted inhibitions.

Alhamdulillah, many 'Ulema have drawn parlallels between prostitution, and Mu'tah.

The Prophet (SAW) making an exception for 3 days is one thing, but the Shia scholars who allow it whenever, and whereveris not the same thing. Remember the Prophet (SAW) allowed many practices, as I mentioned before, that we would deem unacceptable today: from consumption of alchohol, slavery, marrying one's stepmother after their father has deceased; to even marrying very young girls at tender ages. All these were practices were common to Jahaliyah Arabs. Some of these customs survived, but with refined conditions, and others were abolished. The fact the Prophet (SAW) unconditionally forbade Mu'tah with the exception of a one-off occasion speaks volume it is a practice, that's not for the faintest of hearts.

Those who use Mu'tah as a free license to get around indeed satanic perverts. Technically their Iman hangs on a thread, but in reality, their Imaan is extinguished by their wanton, flagrant acts of immorality of the worst kind. They must understand the enormity and notoriety of their misdeeds of sexual perversion and immorality of the worst kind. While these old louts have their legs hanging in the grave, they are impervious of death stalking them. Such are people are no doubt the Shias.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 13, 2017, 09:52:29 PM
First of all I didn't and wasn't comparing Mutah to Polygamy. I don't think you've read some of the posts. I was asked why Shia see Mutah as permissible but when asked about whether they've practiced it or not or how many times they or their women have done it then the Shia start to get embarrassed.

Certain people wanted to know why something was considered permissible (Mutah) by the Shia and they are quick to verbally defend and justify it but when speak or ask about practicing it then Shias get angry and see Mutah as something shameful, disgraceful and embarrassing.

This is what I commented on. I wasn't comparing Polygamy to Mutah but just put forward an example that this is also permissible but when it comes to practicing then it is seemed as something disgraceful, embarrassing and troublesome. That is going for a second wife. Forget about the third and don't even think about the 4th.

This was my point that having a second wife is permissible and also Sunah of the Prophet (s) but when it comes to practicing, going for a second wife is like starting world war 3. Why is Polygamy permissible but when it comes to practicing then it is shameful, embarrassing and troublesome for the majority.

This is the point Hadraami skipped as well as many others.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Unfortunately brother, I think you may have missed the intention of the post.  The OP, Rationalist and myself have all repeatedly stated that we aren't here to discuss whether it is mubah or not, we have are here to discuss why the Ja'fari madhhab finds it to be such a virtuous act while it is considered simultaneously taboo to even discuss, let alone engage in.

Here is hadrami's unfortunately worded original post:

Quote
we know shia often defend mut'ah just to have a go at Umar and they say it is highly recommended to practise this "sunnah".

He called you out for "sidetracking" and trying to prove the legality of Mut'ah literally in the first reply

Quote
why do you always love to sidetrack? Mutah is one of the most virtuous "sunnah" according to your sect. It is not just halal, permissible, but highly recommended. Shia who practise it will get huge amount of rewards. So again, the question is, knowing all those things about mutah, why is that shia always respond as if it is one of the most wicked, filthy, promiscuous act they could ever done? So whats the deal?

Here is me attempting to get the conversation on track

Quote
My research, may Allah guide you and I to that which He loves and approves of, has led me to believe that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act in the Ja'fari Madhhab.  Yet, me experience with Ja'faris, and your posts are an example of this, tend to show a very defensive nature to the act.  The question that non-Ja'faris tend to have is, if the act is recommended; then why isn't it more prevalent in Ja'fari culture?  Why is it that simply asking about it gets this extremely defensive reaction?

Here is brother Rationalist saying he is not here to discuss the legality of Mut'ah

Quote
Iceman I am not here to argue whether Muta is haraam or halaal. There are Sunni hadith which state is halaal as presented by you. This does not make a loser in anyway. I am  aware that the sahaba differed in this matter. However, what I am interested is do the 12er Shia have hadith where it states Muta is an exception marriage.

Inshallah we can agree to disagree on the legality of such a marriage, and discuss whether it is highly recommended in the first place.  Maybe we misunderstood and Mut'ah isn't as virtuous  as we thought in the Ja'fari madhhab.

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 13, 2017, 10:09:54 PM
Assalāmu `alaikum Warahmatullāhi Wabarakatuh brother Khaled.

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

Quote
If you search for brother Ebn Hussein's post, he has posted fatwas by Shia's high profile scholars giving permission for perverts to indulge in wide-range of sex episodes. After reading them then you'll come to the realisation, that only a nymphomaniac would entertain such perverted inhibitions.

I do wonder if such an argument would persuade you if a Shi'a posted random fatwas about suckling adults.

Quote
Alhamdulillah, many 'Ulema have drawn parlallels between prostitution, and Mu'tah.

Like who for example?

Quote
The Prophet (SAW) making an exception for 3 days is one thing, but the Shia scholars who allow it whenever, and whereveris not the same thing. Remember the Prophet (SAW) allowed many practices, as I mentioned before, that we would deem unacceptable today: from consumption of alchohol, slavery, marrying one's stepmother after their father has deceased; to even marrying very young girls at tender ages. All these were practices were common to Jahaliyah Arabs. Some of these customs survived, but with refined conditions, and others were abolished. The fact the Prophet (SAW) unconditionally forbade Mu'tah with the exception of a one-off occasion speaks volume it is a practice, that's not for the faintest of hearts.

Are you trying to convince me that Mut'ah is haram?

Quote
Those who use Mu'tah as a free license to get around indeed satanic perverts. Technically their Iman hangs on a thread, but in reality, their Imaan is extinguished by their wanton, flagrant acts of immorality of the worst kind. They must understand the enormity and notoriety of their misdeeds of sexual perversion and immorality of the worst kind. While these old louts have their legs hanging in the grave, they are impervious of death stalking them. Such are people are no doubt the Shias.

So I have yet to see how the 12er concept is prostitution, and how it is any worse than what the Jahili Arabs practiced.  Just a lot of rhetoric...
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 13, 2017, 10:47:56 PM
Brother Khaled, if you review the entire thread, do some simple research, and apply your mind, Insh'Allah you'll understand the alikeness between the two. If not, then there is nothing more to discuss. It's a futile discussion to have at best.

Alhamdulillah, neither of us engage in Mu'tah, and believe in its the prophetic prohibition. That's the main thing.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 13, 2017, 11:23:31 PM
Brother Khaled, if you review the entire thread, do some simple research, and apply your mind, Insh'Allah you'll understand the alikeness between the two. If not, then there is nothing more to discuss. It's a futile discussion to have at best.

Alhamdulillah, neither of us engage in Mu'tah, and believe in its the prophetic prohibition. That's the main thing.

I can't find any threads, just a blog post which shows a fatwaa where a Shi'i scholar says it is permissible to do Mut'ah with a whore.

So you didn't answer if "whoaretheshia" posted a suckling adults post if you would be convinced that "Sunnism" allows this.  You didn't answer the scholars who stated Mut'ah was akin to prostitution.  Nor did you show me how Mut'ah is akin to prostitution.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on December 13, 2017, 11:42:01 PM
I can't find any threads, just a blog post which shows a fatwaa where a Shi'i scholar says it is permissible to do Mut'ah with a whore.

So you didn't answer if "whoaretheshia" posted a suckling adults post if you would be convinced that "Sunnism" allows this.  You didn't answer the scholars who stated Mut'ah was akin to prostitution.  Nor did you show me how Mut'ah is akin to prostitution.

I believe my posts are self explanatory. If you believe otherwise, we'll just leave it at that.

I didn't mention any names because I refuse to spoon feed you brother. Keep persevering, and you'll stumble upon something of significance sooner rather later.

Raising the consensus of a few scholars who permitted such an act to establish mahram relation between two people does not deter from the very reality, that the practice of Mu'tah between two people is hardly different than a random couple having a one night stand, and/or becoming sex buddies for as long as they desire.

The very complexion of such a comparison is retarded at best.

I've nothing more to contribute to this thread.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 14, 2017, 12:15:53 AM
Brother Khaled this is what you said;

"Unfortunately brother, I think you may have missed the intention of the post.  The OP, Rationalist and myself have all repeatedly stated that we aren't here to discuss whether it is mubah or not, we have are here to discuss why the Ja'fari madhhab finds it to be such a virtuous act while it is considered simultaneously taboo to even discuss, let alone engage in.

Note this bit,

"why the Ja'fari madhhab finds it to be such a virtuous act while it is considered simultaneously taboo to even discuss, let alone engage in"

First of all do the vast amount (majority) of Shia scholars say that this is a virtuous act? I'm not interested in one or two Shia Scholars or books because Scholars vary in opinion and sometimes to great length.

For example, this is off topic/subject but just to prove a point,

there is a joint statement from Ayatollah Khaminei and Sistani that Shias should refrain from such actions and acts based on custom/tradition which give Shias a bad name or where Shias are looked at strangely. Some where along those lines. For example, to commemorate Imam Hussain's martyrdom in a particular fashion where you batter and bloody yourself.

On the other hand you have Ayatollah Khorasani and Shirazi who allow such Azadari and deem it permissible or even necessary and part of the Shia faith and belief. This is how much scholars can differ in fatwa, statement and opinion.

There is also another example, Ali yun Waliyullah, scholars even greatly differ on this too. Some say it is part of the Azaan and Iqamat and others say it is not.

Back to the topic. One needs to understand fully and completely about Any Fatwa or statement given by a scholar. For example, 'Mutah is a virtuous act' What does this mean? Virtuous act like Nimaz eTahajut, Nimaz r Shab? No, absolutely not. Where everyone and anyone should be free to do and engage.

Mutah is a virtuous act but for who? And why? Those with exceptional circumstances depending on their situation and condition where one fears or eventually and secretly indulges in Haram/sinful acts it is highly recommended and a virtuous act with rewards from refraining from Haram and sinful acts and deeds.

There is always a reason and purpose to something. Don't take things at face value or look at just the bold and large print. There is the small print as well. Things are advertised to get and gain attention but then you have,

'terms and conditions apply bla bla bla and etc etc etc.'

If Mutah was a virtuous and rewarding act in the Ja'fari Madhhab like saum and salah for instance then people would engage in it openly and commonly. It would be a regular act and practice, which it is not.

Once again Mutah is there for those who feel the urge and need. Those with extreme circumstances and in difficult conditions. Those who most definitely know that they will end up doing something sinful/Haram.

Those who don't have the knowledge and understanding is one thing but to deliberately try to point score and make the other sect look bad based on sectarian hatred is another.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 14, 2017, 02:56:22 AM
I believe my posts are self explanatory. If you believe otherwise, we'll just leave it at that.

I haven't seen a single explanation of how Mut'ah=prostitution.  I have seen a lot of deflecting without bringing any evidence; reminds me of when asking a Ja'fari to prove Imamah...

Quote
I didn't mention any names because I refuse to spoon feed you brother. Keep persevering, and you'll stumble upon something of significance sooner rather later.

So when someone asks you for a reference, you refuse because you consider that "spoonfeeding?"  I didn't ask you for an ayah or a hadeeth any one can look up; I asked you for a Muslim scholar who considered Mut'ah to be the same or similar to prostitution.

Quote
Raising the consensus of a few scholars who permitted such an act to establish mahram relation between two people does not deter from the very reality, that the practice of Mu'tah between two people is hardly different than a random couple having a one night stand, and/or becoming sex buddies for as long as they desire.

Or any different than marrying with the intent to divorce...

Quote
I've nothing more to contribute to this thread.

With all due respect, you didn't contribute anything
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 14, 2017, 03:14:13 AM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
First of all do the vast amount (majority) of Shia scholars say that this is a virtuous act? I'm not interested in one or two Shia Scholars or books because Scholars vary in opinion and sometimes to great length.

This is what I'm trying to get at; maybe I'm wrong and its not a recommended act in the Ja'fari madhhab.  Yet, I have never come across a Ja'fari scholar who discourages Mut'ah, or says that it is anything less than mustahabb.  Perhaps you will show me a scholar who does, or you can show Rationalist a hadeeth that say Mut'ah is only in certain circumstances.

Quote
For example, this is off topic/subject but just to prove a point,

*sigh*

Quote
there is a joint statement from Ayatollah Khaminei and Sistani that Shias should refrain from such actions and acts based on custom/tradition which give Shias a bad name or where Shias are looked at strangely. Some where along those lines. For example, to commemorate Imam Hussain's martyrdom in a particular fashion where you batter and bloody yourself.

On the other hand you have Ayatollah Khorasani and Shirazi who allow such Azadari and deem it permissible or even necessary and part of the Shia faith and belief. This is how much scholars can differ in fatwa, statement and opinion.

There is also another example, Ali yun Waliyullah, scholars even greatly differ on this too. Some say it is part of the Azaan and Iqamat and others say it is not.

I don't know where to begin.  First of all, you are right, this is off topic.  Second of all, I'm amazed at this level of contradiction considering a) you follow infallible Imams, b) you are so critical of the Sunni madhhabs; but that's not our topic.  Thirdly, if you wanted to prove your point, you could've shown a statement by an Ayatollah saying "you shouldn't do Mut'ah in certain situations because..." as that is our discussion at hand.

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Back to the topic. One needs to understand fully and completely about Any Fatwa or statement given by a scholar. For example, 'Mutah is a virtuous act' What does this mean? Virtuous act like Nimaz eTahajut, Nimaz r Shab? No, absolutely not. Where everyone and anyone should be free to do and engage.

Virtuous as in it is mustahabb, as in one is rewarded for doing it.  As far is it being better than Tahajjud (is that what you are saying?) and the other prayer (again, I apologize, I can't tell what you are saying); my understanding is that it is WAY better than those things.  My understanding is that doing it four times well get you into heaven on the same leve as the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.  Can you possibly say that about the prayers you mentioned (or anything else really)?

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Mutah is a virtuous act but for who? And why? Those with exceptional circumstances depending on their situation and condition where one fears or eventually and secretly indulges in Haram/sinful acts it is highly recommended and a virtuous act with rewards from refraining from Haram and sinful acts and deeds.

Finally, a response that actually addresses the topic.  Problem is, this seems to be your personal explanation.  Is there any reference that one has to be in exceptional circumstances for it be a virtuous act?  One hadeeth, statement of an Imam, fatwa of a Marji'... anything...

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If Mutah was a virtuous and rewarding act in the Ja'fari Madhhab like saum and salah for instance then people would engage in it openly and commonly. It would be a regular act and practice, which it is not.

Once again Mutah is there for those who feel the urge and need. Those with extreme circumstances and in difficult conditions. Those who most definitely know that they will end up doing something sinful/Haram.

Those who don't have the knowledge and understanding is one thing but to deliberately try to point score and make the other sect look bad based on sectarian hatred is another.

I don't hate Shi'as, and I think you can see with how I've responded with Hadrami and Opitmus Prime, I am VERY fair in Ja'fari/Mainstream Muslim discussions.

Problem is the rampant contradictions between what you are saying, and what we read Shi'a scholars say, and what the ahadeeth and statements of the Imams claim.  The fact that it is not practiced in a widespread way like fasting and salah is exactly the point of this thread; if it is in fact something which can lead me to heaven, which is it treated like such a taboo subject.  The answer I got from you is it is a circumstantial thing.  I am willing to accept that; now, can you provide any evidence that this is the case in the Ja'fari Madhhab?

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on December 14, 2017, 07:25:36 AM
This is exactly what I'm talking about, exceptional circumstances. This is exactly what Mutah is for. It's not a common thing or ordinary practice within Shia. You've answered it yourself. Why use something, manipulate it then blow it out of proportion and try to paint a bad picture about the Shia.

Brother, I do not wish to burden you with all these hadiths - in other words, you are not required to answer for them - but please do not tell me that mutah is something of an "exceptional" nature and that we use it to "paint a bad picture about the Shia".

The Prophet said, “The man who contracts Mutah once will be saved from the Hellfire. One who contracts it twice will be in the company of virtuous men [in Paradise]. And the one who contracts it three times will be my companion in the highest level of Paradise.” (Al-Kafi)

The Prophet said, “The men and women who die without performing Mutah even once in their lives will appear on the Day of Judgment with their ears and nose cut and [their faces] deformed.” (Al-Kafi)

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq narrated from the Prophet that “one third of the body is saved from the Hellfire if one contracts mutah once. Two thirds of the body is saved if one contracts Mutah twice, and the whole body is saved from Hell if one contracts Mutah three times.” (Al-Kafi)

It is narrated that once the Prophet was sitting among his companions and the discussion came to the topic of mutah. The Prophet said, “Do you know what is the reward of mutah?” The companions answered, “No,” The Prophet then said, “Jibraeel just came to me and said, ‘0 Muhammad, Allah sends His blessings to you and commands you to instruct your Ummah to engage in the practice of Mutah since this is the practice of [Allah’s] virtuous servants.” (Al-Kafi)

“One who engages in Mutah once attains the status of Imam al-Hussain. One who engages in it twice becomes equal in status to Imam al-Hasan. The one who performs it three times reaches the position of Imam Ali. And he who practices it four times acquires the level and position [equal to that] of the Prophet.” (Al-Kafi)
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on December 14, 2017, 03:16:08 PM
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This is what I'm trying to get at; maybe I'm wrong and its not a recommended act in the Ja'fari madhhab.  Yet, I have never come across a Ja'fari scholar who discourages Mut'ah, or says that it is anything less than mustahabb.  Perhaps you will show me a scholar who does, or you can show Rationalist a hadeeth that say Mut'ah is only in certain circumstances.

The issue is of course, that 12er Shias do practice Mut'ah on quite a normal scale, and Shia men and women discuss it and joke about it often, so the stonewalling in front of us Sunnis is quite strange.

There are other analogous situations: Like for Muslims in general when we talk among ourselves most of us do protrude a hatred of Israel. Now, if we get very defensive and act as if it almost does not happen in our circles [when confronted by outside critics], this is the height of silliness since the proof of our attitudes is vast. Thus, we either we change course or defend the general Israel-hatred. There are no two ways about it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 15, 2017, 12:25:59 AM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
This is what I'm trying to get at; maybe I'm wrong and its not a recommended act in the Ja'fari madhhab.  Yet, I have never come across a Ja'fari scholar who discourages Mut'ah, or says that it is anything less than mustahabb.  Perhaps you will show me a scholar who does, or you can show Rationalist a hadeeth that say Mut'ah is only in certain circumstances.

*sigh*

I don't know where to begin.  First of all, you are right, this is off topic.  Second of all, I'm amazed at this level of contradiction considering a) you follow infallible Imams, b) you are so critical of the Sunni madhhabs; but that's not our topic.  Thirdly, if you wanted to prove your point, you could've shown a statement by an Ayatollah saying "you shouldn't do Mut'ah in certain situations because..." as that is our discussion at hand.

Virtuous as in it is mustahabb, as in one is rewarded for doing it.  As far is it being better than Tahajjud (is that what you are saying?) and the other prayer (again, I apologize, I can't tell what you are saying); my understanding is that it is WAY better than those things.  My understanding is that doing it four times well get you into heaven on the same leve as the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.  Can you possibly say that about the prayers you mentioned (or anything else really)?

Finally, a response that actually addresses the topic.  Problem is, this seems to be your personal explanation.  Is there any reference that one has to be in exceptional circumstances for it be a virtuous act?  One hadeeth, statement of an Imam, fatwa of a Marji'... anything...

I don't hate Shi'as, and I think you can see with how I've responded with Hadrami and Opitmus Prime, I am VERY fair in Ja'fari/Mainstream Muslim discussions.

Problem is the rampant contradictions between what you are saying, and what we read Shi'a scholars say, and what the ahadeeth and statements of the Imams claim.  The fact that it is not practiced in a widespread way like fasting and salah is exactly the point of this thread; if it is in fact something which can lead me to heaven, which is it treated like such a taboo subject.  The answer I got from you is it is a circumstantial thing.  I am willing to accept that; now, can you provide any evidence that this is the case in the Ja'fari Madhhab?

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك

Wa Alaykumus Salaam. This is really getting very long and uneccesarily. Don't we have any sense? Yes we do. Does logic mean anything? Yes it does. Are we bright or dull? We are bright. Are we clever or clumsy? We are clever. And so on and so forth.

When it comes to the alphabet do we use the word 'alphabet' or do we start off from A B C..... all the way up to Z each and every time we mean and talk about the alphabet.

When it comes to getting from A to B are signs and directions not enough or do we need to be taken or driven from A to B each and every time?

For heaven's sake, for crying out loud 2 and 2 is 4. Hens lay eggs, they do not have babies and so on and so forth. An intelligent and sensible just relies on reality and facts. Through sense and logic and signs and directions are more than enough to understand and figure things out but only for the wise man.

I believe we are intelligent and wise. Then why are we asking for things in black and white, then no we actually want it in colour. Then this, that and the other.

I will continue this.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 15, 2017, 02:46:13 AM
Wa Alaykumus Salaam. This is really getting very long and uneccesarily.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Don't you think that the reason this thread has gotten so long is because you're not addressing the contents of the thread?  You were called out several times for beating around the bush and not discussing the issues brought up.  What this does is create more issues, and we now have several NEW issues that you have yet to address; making the discussing even longer.  So lets try to summarize this and make it as concise as possible:

1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab?
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?

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Don't we have any sense? *snip* I will continue this.

With all due respect, but that right there is why this thread has gotten so long.  Please try to stay on topic without appealing to "logic"; I am appealing to "logic" as well since we are both having a debate about this topic.  Just like you believe what I am saying is irrational, I think what you are saying is irrational and doesn't have textual basis.  As a result, you and I have a conversation actually addressing each other's points so we can reach a common word, بارك الله فيك.  We both believe in the Qur'an, the Sunnah and appealing to logic and reason.  So lets try to stay on topic so that this discussion can move forward, أحسن الله إليكم.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2017, 08:57:17 AM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Don't you think that the reason this thread has gotten so long is because you're not addressing the contents of the thread?  You were called out several times for beating around the bush and not discussing the issues brought up.  What this does is create more issues, and we now have several NEW issues that you have yet to address; making the discussing even longer.  So lets try to summarize this and make it as concise as possible:

1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab?
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?

With all due respect, but that right there is why this thread has gotten so long.  Please try to stay on topic without appealing to "logic"; I am appealing to "logic" as well since we are both having a debate about this topic.  Just like you believe what I am saying is irrational, I think what you are saying is irrational and doesn't have textual basis.  As a result, you and I have a conversation actually addressing each other's points so we can reach a common word, بارك الله فيك.  We both believe in the Qur'an, the Sunnah and appealing to logic and reason.  So lets try to stay on topic so that this discussion can move forward, أحسن الله إليكم.

والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Salaam brother. Ok.....lets see if I can get through to you on this occasion.

You asked,

"What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab?"

My answer, the ruling is clear.

In response to a question about Mutah, Grand Ayatollah Khamenei responded and declared that Mutah (temporary marriage) is not only permissible but rather it is Mustahabb (highly recommended). Ayatollah Khameini said:

“Although mut‘ah marriage is permissible, or rather mustahabb [highly recommended] in our view, it is not obligatory in shar‘[iah].”

Now what does this mean and what do we take from it?

There are two things here,

1, it is permissible. 2, or rather mustahabb.

Note the difference here and how it has been said.

Why is it permissible? Just for the same reason and purpose the Prophet (s) deed it permissible.

To be continued!
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 20, 2017, 08:47:23 PM
Salaam brother. Ok.....lets see if I can get through to you on this occasion.

Wa alykum as-Salaam, lets hope so inshallah  :D

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You asked,

"What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab?"

My answer, the ruling is clear.

In response to a question about Mutah, Grand Ayatollah Khamenei responded and declared that Mutah (temporary marriage) is not only permissible but rather it is Mustahabb (highly recommended). Ayatollah Khameini said:

“Although mut‘ah marriage is permissible, or rather mustahabb [highly recommended] in our view, it is not obligatory in shar‘[iah].”

I did ask that because we know what the ruling is; mustahabb.  Everyone here has agreed that Ja'fari view is that it is higher than mubah, and lower than wajib.  Having finally established that, I would prefer we look at the fatwa you quoted from in its entirety to see context and what it actually means.

Link to original fatwa http://english.almaaref.org/essaydetails.php?eid=4762&cid=596

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Q: If in the mukallaf’s country/city the common view considers mut‘ah marriage as a slander or accusation in such a way that a believer is accused of being not religious and having illegal relations or even despised if he/she does it, what is the ruling, then?

A: Although mut‘ah marriage is permissible, or rather mustahabb in our view, it is not obligatory in shar‘. Therefore, if it leads to conflict, accusation or vile consequences matters that are not acceptable by the Divine Legislator, it is rendered impermissible for the mukallaf to be indulged in such a marriage.

Notice the context of the fatwa; the questioner is asking about the ruling of mut'ah when done in a society that considers Mut'ah taboo.  The Ayatollah then goes on to ruling that doing so in such a society would making Mut'ah impermissible.  Fine, that's not uncommon for a Shar'i ruling to change depending on the circumstances.  However, this is not what this thread has been about.  This close-to-a-100 post thread has been about WHY is Mut'ah taboo in Ja'fari cultures considering the high status of it in the Madhhab?  Why is an act, which if done four times, can get a person on the same station as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم considered so vile in Ja'fari cultures?  This is what this thread is and has been all about.

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Now what does this mean and what do we take from it?

There are two things here,

1, it is permissible. 2, or rather mustahabb.

Note the difference here and how it has been said.

So you know everything that is Mustahabb is by default Mubah.  He wasn't making a distinction.  It's like if someone asked, "What is the ruling on Salat at-Tahajjud?" thinking that it is haram, so the Mufti answers, "not only is it permissible, it is actually mustahabb."

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Why is it permissible? Just for the same reason and purpose the Prophet (s) deed it permissible.

Well here is a place where we disagree, so this now brings up another issue.  I believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because it was a practice which Allah hadn't prohibited.  I believe that ultimately it was banned by the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم because Allah prohibited it.  So unless you have some evidence that we can both rely on here, its' best not to use conjecture.

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To be continued!

Looking forward to it :)
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 20, 2017, 10:22:45 PM
Brother this is what you said;

"Well here is a place where we disagree, so this now brings up another issue.  I believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because it was a practice which Allah hadn't prohibited.  I believe that ultimately it was banned by the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم because Allah prohibited it.  So unless you have some evidence that we can both rely on here, its' best not to use conjecture"

Take a note of this;

"I believe that ultimately it was banned by the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم because Allah prohibited it"

If the Prophet (s) banned it because ALLAH PROHIBITED IT then the matter is crystal clear. If it's from ALLAH then it is absolutely obvious that it has to be in the QORAN.

Can you provide me with the verse/s from the Qoran where Allah has prohibited Mutah and because of this direct order and command from Allah the Prophet (s) banned it.

Also can you provide me with an absolute clear Hadith that the Prophet (s) said Mutah was only permissible due to exceptional circumstances.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 21, 2017, 12:18:36 AM
If the Prophet (s) banned it because ALLAH PROHIBITED IT then the matter is crystal clear. If it's from ALLAH then it is absolutely obvious that it has to be in the QORAN.

Several points:

#1 If something is prohibited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم it doesn't need to be prohibited in the Qur'an.  This is basic Usool al-Fiqh.  Allah سبحانه وتعالى says:
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And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allah; verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. [59:7]

#2 If the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibited us from Taraweeh, then the matter should be crystal clear in the Qur'an.  Notice how that doesn't make any sense.
#3 I don't believe the Imam is crystal clear in the Qur'an (or in there at all).
#4 The names of the 12 Imams (or any of them) is not found in the Qur'an, FAR more important than the prohibition of Mut'ah.

Nonetheless, what you're saying is soundly rejected because no Muslim jurist, mainstream or Ja'fari, ever made the claim that for a prohibition to be valid from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم we have to find in the Qur'an.

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Also can you provide me with an absolute clear Hadith that the Prophet (s) said Mutah was only permissible due to exceptional circumstances.

I never made that claim, rather it was you that made that claim.  I claimed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't prohibit it right away, like he didn't prohibit all kinds of things right away that later because haram; i.e. alcohol, renaming adopted children's lineage etc.  The burden of proof is on you since you claimed it.  So, either provide a hadeeth or a fatwa stating so, or else this is just your personal madhhab and not representative of the Ja'fari madhhab.

Please also address all the points before trying to address something new.  It makes it look like you don't have a reply to the other points, بارك الله فيك.  Here are the issues for reminder:

1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2017, 03:20:52 AM
Here we go again. This is what you said and they are your words;

"Well here is a place where we disagree, so this now brings up another issue.  I believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because it was a practice which Allah hadn't prohibited.  I believe that ultimately it was banned by the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم because Allah prohibited it.  So unless you have some evidence that we can both rely on here, its' best not to use conjecture"

Now lets examine what you said bit by bit.

You said;

"so this now brings up another issue"

You've brought in another issue which needs to be addressed by you.

You then say;

"I believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because it was a practice which Allah hadn't prohibited"

Ok, so you believe that the Prophet (s) permitted Mutah, not because of Allah that Allah ordered it to be permissible, but because of the Prophet (s). In other words it was the Prophet's (s) own action.

Then you further say;

"I believe that ultimately it was banned by the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم because Allah prohibited it"

Excuse me, the Prophet (s) permitted it and there was no order or indication from Allah of it being permissible or prohibited. But the Prophet (s) banned it because Allah indicated and ordered it to be prohibited? Because Allah prohibited it?

Any order or indication from Allah of anything being permitted or prohibited has to be in the Qoran and Gabriel comes to Muhammad (s) with verse/s of it being permitted or prohibited.

Now this is what is logical and makes sense;

The prophet (s) permitted Mutah but there has to be a reason and purpose for why apart from " because Allah didn't prohibit it'. Because if Allah didn't prohibit it then he also didn't make it permissible. This was the sole action of the Prophet (s) but why?

Now if the Prophet (s) banned it then you bring Allah as the reason for it. But why ban it? This doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2017, 03:41:57 AM
Several points:

#1 If something is prohibited by the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم it doesn't need to be prohibited in the Qur'an.  This is basic Usool al-Fiqh.  Allah سبحانه وتعالى says:
#2 If the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibited us from Taraweeh, then the matter should be crystal clear in the Qur'an.  Notice how that doesn't make any sense.
#3 I don't believe the Imam is crystal clear in the Qur'an (or in there at all).
#4 The names of the 12 Imams (or any of them) is not found in the Qur'an, FAR more important than the prohibition of Mut'ah.

Nonetheless, what you're saying is soundly rejected because no Muslim jurist, mainstream or Ja'fari, ever made the claim that for a prohibition to be valid from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم we have to find in the Qur'an.

I never made that claim, rather it was you that made that claim.  I claimed the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't prohibit it right away, like he didn't prohibit all kinds of things right away that later because haram; i.e. alcohol, renaming adopted children's lineage etc.  The burden of proof is on you since you claimed it.  So, either provide a hadeeth or a fatwa stating so, or else this is just your personal madhhab and not representative of the Ja'fari madhhab.

Please also address all the points before trying to address something new.  It makes it look like you don't have a reply to the other points, بارك الله فيك.  Here are the issues for reminder:

1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?

Now you mentioned this;

"And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allah; verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. [59:7]"

Now if the Prophet (s) gives you something, take it. Do you have to take it? Would this be compulsory, wajib? And if you don't take it then you're committing Haram?

And what ever he forbids you abstain from it, if you don't what then? What does abstain mean?

You said;

"If the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibited us from Taraweeh, then the matter should be crystal clear in the Qur'an.  Notice how that doesn't make any sense"

You're getting all mixed up here. Take this; if the Prophet (s) prohibited Taraweeh then this is different than,
the Prophet (s) banned Taraweeh because Allah prohibited it. See the difference. The first one wouldn't be in the Qoran because it is from the Prophet (s) alone and his own action.

But the second is also the Prophet's (s) action but it is not from the Prophet (s) but from and because of Allah and HAS to be in the QORAN.

If something is prohibited by the Messenger (s) alone that doesn't have to be in the Qoran. But if something is banned by the Prophet (s) because you claim Allah prohibited it then that must and has to be in the Qoran because it's from Allah.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 21, 2017, 04:43:08 PM
If the Prophet (s) banned it because ALLAH PROHIBITED IT then the matter is crystal clear. If it's from ALLAH then it is absolutely obvious that it has to be in the QORAN.

Can you provide me with the verse/s from the Qoran where Allah has prohibited Mutah and because of this direct order and command from Allah the Prophet (s) banned it.

Brother, InshaAllah! I will prove to you from Quran using  Shia hadeeth that permissiblity of  Mutah has been abrogated.

But before I do that you need to  honestly answer some simple questions.

Do you think  permanent marriage is better than  Mutah(temporary) marriage or not ? Like suppose there is a Shia sister who has an option to marry a guy in any of the two marriages. That is, permanent or Mutah. So which one of these would be better according to YOU. ?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2017, 11:40:32 PM
Brother, InshaAllah! I will prove to you from Quran using  Shia hadeeth that permissiblity of  Mutah has been abrogated.

But before I do that you need to  honestly answer some simple questions.

Do you think  permanent marriage is better than  Mutah(temporary) marriage or not ? Like suppose there is a Shia sister who has an option to marry a guy in any of the two marriages. That is, permanent or Mutah. So which one of these would be better according to YOU. ?

Why can't you just answer the questions and then by all means ask? The Prophet (s) permitted Mutah, why and what for? He (s) banned Mutah, why and what for? What was the reason and purpose for Mutah to be permissible and then prohibited? Just simple and straightforward questions.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 21, 2017, 11:47:26 PM
Brother, InshaAllah! I will prove to you from Quran using  Shia hadeeth that permissiblity of  Mutah has been abrogated.

But before I do that you need to  honestly answer some simple questions.

Do you think  permanent marriage is better than  Mutah(temporary) marriage or not ? Like suppose there is a Shia sister who has an option to marry a guy in any of the two marriages. That is, permanent or Mutah. So which one of these would be better according to YOU. ?

First of all temporary and permanent, marriage, to engage in a full time or part time martial contract, be it Nikah or Mutah both are permissible.

Second, it all depends on the sister in question and her guardians and family. She and they are well aware of their circumstances, situation and condition.  I am not and this is not for me to decide on.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 22, 2017, 12:20:13 AM

Second, it all depends on the sister in question and her guardians and family. She and they are well aware of their circumstances, situation and condition.  I am not and this is not for me to decide on.
assume it's your own sister. What would be better for her . Temp marriage or permanent .

Also could you give any scenario wherein temp marriage would be better than a permanent one, when they dont have any problem for performing either of the one?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 22, 2017, 09:07:15 AM
assume it's your own sister. What would be better for her . Temp marriage or permanent .

Also could you give any scenario wherein temp marriage would be better than a permanent one, when they dont have any problem for performing either of the one?

Listen, I don't know what you're getting at or what you're trying to prove here but my simple questions which are extremely important are not being answered. I wonder why.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 22, 2017, 10:03:53 AM
Listen, I don't know what you're getting at or what you're trying to prove here but my simple questions which are extremely important are not being answered. I wonder why.
😂😂😂 as if you have answered the question of this thread. Its 107 posts and still sidetracking. Why an act that is soooooo virtuous and recommended is considered taboo by shia. First you make up excuse i was rude, fair enough, but you still didnt answer when Khalid asked the same question. Want to use rude excuse on Khalid too? 😂😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on December 23, 2017, 06:15:38 AM
Why can't you just answer the questions and then by all means ask? The Prophet (s) permitted Mutah, why and what for? He (s) banned Mutah, why and what for? What was the reason and purpose for Mutah to be permissible and then prohibited? Just simple and straightforward questions.

No doubt simple and straightforward questions but to make the matter murky.  We Muslims, Shias and Sunnis, believe that "we hear and we obey".  We have heard that the Prophet (saw) made mutah permissible then placed a prohibition on it for reasons best known to him (saw); our task is "we hear and we obey".  You believe the Prophet (saw) made it permissible and never prohibited it for reasons best known to him (saw).  As a Muslim, you should not be concerned with the "why" so much as you should be with the implementation of Sunnah.

Now, why is this Sunnah highly encouraged in your madhhab but the minute one proposes this Sunnah for the sister, mother or daughter of a Shia man, the same person who defends mutah, he gets enraged to the point that he gets physical?

PS - you should not conflate buying time with having answered the question.  Also, you should not answer a question with another question.  The "why" is not at stake; what is at stake is your anger if mutah was proposed to someone related to you.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 23, 2017, 04:14:26 PM
Listen, I don't know what you're getting at or what you're trying to prove here but my simple questions which are extremely important are not being answered. I wonder why.
I was expecting this kind of reaction from you, because I know its quite a tough job to answer this simple question, and you don't have the guts to answer it. Anyways, we know what is better from the two(temp or permanent marriage) by looking at the percentage of marriages occurred in Shia community. And for sure, the percentage of permanent marriages that occur in Shia community is way more than the temp. marriages(Mutah).


Coming back to your question"
If the Prophet (s) banned it because ALLAH PROHIBITED IT then the matter is crystal clear. If it's from ALLAH then it is absolutely obvious that it has to be in the QORAN.

Can you provide me with the verse/s from the Qoran where Allah has prohibited Mutah and because of this direct order and command from Allah the Prophet (s) banned it.

Shias use the verse 24 of Surah An-Nisa, to claim that Mutah(temp. Marriage) is proven from Quran. Are they correct in their claim? Or does is the verse in current form against Mutah? 

To understand this matter one must focus on the major difference between permanent and temporary(Mutah) marriage.
The basic difference between Mutah(temp marriage) and Nikah(permanent marriage), is the "mention of appointed time". If in any marriage there is the mention of an "appointed time period" for the annulment of marriage, then that marriage by default is Mutah, and any marriage where there is no mention of the "appointed time period for annulment", then by default it is Nikah.

We read:
حدثنا محمد بن بشر عن عبد العزيز بن عمر عن الحسن بن مسلم عن ابن طاوس قال : كانت سنة المتعة سنة النكاح إلا أن الاجل كان في أيديهن
From Mohammad bin Bishr from Abdul Aziz bin Omar from Al-Hasan bin Muslim from Ibn Tawus: The way (sunnah) of temporary marriage was the way of the (regular) marriage, "except that the time period" is in her hands.(Al-Musanaf, v. 3, p. 546).

We see that, in Mutah there is a set time period, where as in Nikah there isn’t any time period set.

Now let us see the verse of Quran which is used by Shias:
..seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed...(Current version of the verse of Quran 4:24).

In this verse, we find that deriving benefit is mentioned, however without the mention of the condition of "appointed time period", because people derive benefit from their wives even through Nikah, but what differentiates between Nikah and Mutah here is that, benefit in Nikah is derived "without the condition of appointed time", where as in Mutah people derive benefit for an "appointed time".

Another evidence is an authentic Shia hadeeth from Al-Kafi, which says that, the verse of Quran(4:24), WAS REVEALED, with the additional words [FOR AN APPOINTED TIME].

“Abu ‘Abd Allah(as) has said, ‘IT WAS REVEALED AS “If you marry them FOR AN APPOINTED TIME for advantageous marriage you must pay their dowries.” (4:24)’” [Al-Kafi H 9870, Ch. 94, h 3] [Majlisi said its Hasan(good) in Miraat ul uqool, vol 20, page 227]

Similarly in Sunni hadeeth, Imam al-Hakim records
أخبرنا أبو زكريا العنبري ثنا محمد بن عبد السلام ثنا إسحاق بن إبراهيم أنبأ النضر بن شميل أنبأ شعبة ثنا أبو سلمة قال : سمعت أبا نضرة يقول قرأت على ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما {فما استمتعتم به منهن فآتوهن أجورهن فريضة} قال ابن عباس: فما استمعتم به منهن إلى أجل مسمى قال أبو نضرة : فقلت ما نقرأها كذلك فقال ابن عباس : والله لأنزلها الله كذلك
Abu Zakariyyah al-‘Anbari – Muhammad b. ‘Abd al-Salam – Ishaq b. Ibrahim – al-Naḍr b. Shumayl – Shu’bah – Abu Salamah – Abu Naḍrah: I read to Ibn ‘Abbas: {Those of them with whom you contract mut’ah, give them their prescribed dowries} [4:24]. He said: “{Those of them with whom you contract mut’ah for a specified period}”. Abu Naḍrah said: I said, “We do not recite it like that!” Ibn ‘Abbas replied, “I swear by Allah, Allah certainly revealed it like that.

However, the Current version of the verse of Quran, doesn’t have the addition "FOR AN APPOINTED TIME", which basically means that, it was revealed for Mutah, but was abrogated, by the same verse which was better, which didn’t have the condition of appointed time, which implies it is for Nikah. Because as I explained before, deriving benefit with the "mention of an appointed time is Mutah", but when it is without the condition of appointed time, then it is Nikah.

Allah says in Quran: {If We abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, We will replace it by a better one or one similar to it. Do you not know that God has power over all things?} [Quran 2:106]

As told you before, if ask any decent and civilized person, whether permanent marriage(Nikah) is better than temporary marriage(Mutah), then obvious answer would be that, permanent marriage(Nikah) is better. Hence Allah(swt) abrogated the ruling of Mutah(temporary marriage) by a better verse, which is about Nikah(permanent marriage). Therefore, the current version of verse 24 of Surah an-Nisa is against Mutah, since it abrogated the part which talks about an "appointed time". Thus the current verse of Quran 4:24 is regarding Nikah(permanent marriage).

Similarly, Imam Ibn Taymiyyah provides his interpretation of these narrations:
If revealed, then it is a letter (a recitation), and there is no doubt that it is not from the famous recitation, which makes it abrogated, and it would have been revealed when mut’ah was permissible, and when it became forbidden this letter (recitation) was abrogated. [Minhaj Al-Sunnah 2/634]
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 09:10:45 AM
Lets all calm down and relax. I see emotions are running very high here and absolutely unnecessary.☺

I don't know how many times I need to say, repeat and answer. Anyways, lets have another go.

Firstly Shia Scholars differ in thought, opinion and point of view just exactly as the Suni Scholars do. Same applies to books written by Shia or Suni Scholars. One shouldn't handpick something at random just to prove their point according to their mindset be it Shia or Suni.

Secondly sense and logic, reality and facts have their place then Qoran and Sunah. If something doesn't make sense, isn't logical, is not according to reality and facts, doesn't fit in or add up then it can't be in and from Qoran and Sunah. This is what my belief is based on. I don't know about yours.

Thirdly it's got nothing to do with my sister, daughter, neice etc or yours or anybody else's. Mutah is highly recommended but for who? For what? And why is it highly recommended? Please shake off and get rid of that mindset and start thinking straight.

The reason why Mutah is permissible, highly recommended is because it was banned by rulers after Muhammad (s)  and it is considered as something bad in fact terrible by Muslims and in the Muslim community. The Shia Scholars issue fatwas or give statements to bring back the reputation and value of Mutah which has been damaged, damned and cursed by certain Muslims and their school of thought.

Will continue this.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 10:06:05 AM
Now if Mutah was considered taboo in the Shia community then people wouldn't practice it all. And they would advise others not to as well giving their reasons. What ever fatwa or statement a Shia Scholar has given one needs to ask that particular scholar for a detailed explanation rather than taking it at face value and giving it your own meaning and explanation based on your own understanding and mindset.

I have said this before and I will say it again that when it comes to my sister or daughter, it is not for me to choose for them. In fact it is down to them. And if they choose not to engage in Mutah then that is their choice. Just because they choose not to doesn't mean Mutah is bad or it is taboo with in Shia community.

Mutah is not a choice like 'what would you prefer; coke, 7 up or Fanta?'. Mutah is their as a solution for those who seem to have the need for it. For those harsh conditions, situations and circumstances.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 12:28:09 PM
The Prophet (s) made Mutah permissible and you don't know why? What was the reason and purpose you don't know. What, this was top secret and had to be kept discreet?  The best you can do ànd come up with is 'forget about why'.

Again the Prophet (s) prohibited Mutah and you can't come up with a single answer to why? What was the reason and purpose you don't have the faintest, is this what you're telling me? Is this what your faith and belief is based on?

Brother Khaled mentioned that the Prophet (s) banned Mutah because Allah prohibited it, he hasn't come up with the Quranic text of where and when Allah prohibited it.

Mutah is not about choice but it is a solution for those who have harsh conditions, are in difficult situations or face complicated circumstances. All you need to do is use your sense and think with logic.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 12:40:05 PM
Mutah is not a Sunah and highly recommended because the Prophet (s) engaged in it and people have a free pass or an open ticket. It is there for those who find themselves in difficult situations, extreme circumstances or face harsh conditions.

Those who are not ready to take on the responsibility of permanent and full time marriage or can't engage in it because of education or haven't established themselves. Those who are in the armed services be it land, air or sea and find or put themselves in awkward and difficult conditions and situations.

I can give you many many more examples. Now you need a direct and clear fatwa from a Shia Scholar, you want it in black and white? Firstly can you do the same about why the Prophet (s) made Mutah permissible and was that due to and only based on exceptional circumstances which someone mentioned. You also have to give or provide exactly what you ask for.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 26, 2017, 01:14:14 PM
😂😂😂😂 still diverting from what is being asked. Where are other shias when you need them. I guess most of them knows shia mut'ah is filth
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 01:20:19 PM
Mut'ah Banned by Umar

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 43:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Verse of muta was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But the man (omar) just expressed what his own mind suggested

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3250:

Abu Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (muta of Hajj and muta of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3248:

Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that jibir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh and during the time of Abi Bakr and 'Umar

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3249:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 01:21:53 PM
😂😂😂😂 still diverting from what is being asked. Where are other shias when you need them. I guess most of them knows shia mut'ah is filth

I KNOW YOU CAN'T DO ANY BETTER.😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 26, 2017, 01:26:05 PM
The reason why Mutah is permissible, highly recommended is because it was banned by rulers after Muhammad (s)  and it is considered as something bad in fact terrible by Muslims and in the Muslim community. The Shia Scholars issue fatwas or give statements to bring back the reputation and value of Mutah which has been damaged, damned and cursed by certain Muslims and their school of thought.

Will continue this.
Ok so shia sholars said it was highly recommended because they want to clean up mutah reputation eh? In that case ayatula should try it first and mutah their daughters. Go to your scholars and ask their daughter for mutah and lets see if they practise what they preach. Lets see how they will give fatwa that is is highly recommended to slap your face 😂😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 01:42:53 PM
Ok so shia sholars said it was highly recommended because they want to clean up mutah reputation eh? In that case ayatula should try it first and mutah their daughters. Go to your scholars and ask their daughter for mutah and lets see if they practise what they preach. Lets see how they will give fatwa that is is highly recommended to slap your face 😂😂

You can carry on the way you want. The reaction you want out of me you definitely won't be getting. I am too technical and far sighted for you. 😊 Mutah is there for those who feel or seem to have the need. To get sisters or daughters or anyone else to do it is out of the question. No one owns anybody. So think of a different technique. 😃
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2017, 02:07:06 PM
😂😂😂😂 still diverting from what is being asked. Where are other shias when you need them. I guess most of them knows shia mut'ah is filth

What's your opinion on Mutah?  Do you believe it is filth?😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 26, 2017, 03:01:01 PM
What's your opinion on Mutah?  Do you believe it is filth?😊
try asking your shia scholar to let their daughter to do mutah which they themselves said is "highly recommend". Lets see if your shia scholars think highly of shia mutah's reputation 😂😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 26, 2017, 08:00:25 PM
Here we go again. This is what you said and they are your words;

I had told myself that I was going to end this discussion and not come back to it, but to be honest, you said something so telling that I couldn't help by point it out.

Quote
Now lets examine what you said bit by bit.

Inshallah

Quote
"I believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because it was a practice which Allah hadn't prohibited"

Ok, so you believe that the Prophet (s) permitted Mutah, not because of Allah that Allah ordered it to be permissible, but because of the Prophet (s). In other words it was the Prophet's (s) own action.

No, I believe he صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because of the basic Usooli principle shared by Ja'faris and non-Ja'faris, "everything in this dunya is halal unless there is evidence it is haram."  Just like alcohol was halal for a while, and then it was made haram.  Same thing here.

Quote
Excuse me, the Prophet (s) permitted it and there was no order or indication from Allah of it being permissible or prohibited. But the Prophet (s) banned it because Allah indicated and ordered it to be prohibited? Because Allah prohibited it?

Yes.

Quote
Any order or indication from Allah of anything being permitted or prohibited has to be in the Qoran and Gabriel comes to Muhammad (s) with verse/s of it being permitted or prohibited.

No it doesn't, there are plenty of things that are made haram in this deen that aren't found in the Qur'an.  Everything the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibits is done some with indication from Allah as is again, basic Usool.
Quote
Now this is what is logical and makes sense;

The prophet (s) permitted Mutah but there has to be a reason and purpose for why apart from " because Allah didn't prohibit it'. Because if Allah didn't prohibit it then he also didn't make it permissible. This was the sole action of the Prophet (s) but why?

Now if the Prophet (s) banned it then you bring Allah as the reason for it. But why ban it? This doesn't make any sense.

You haven't showed why what I believe doesn't make sense what you believe makes sense, you just stated it.

On to the next post where you don't address any of my points...
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 26, 2017, 08:07:24 PM
Now you mentioned this;

"And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it). And fear Allah; verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. [59:7]"

Now if the Prophet (s) gives you something, take it. Do you have to take it? Would this be compulsory, wajib? And if you don't take it then you're committing Haram?

That's a good question for you to ask yourself, how many times have you committed Mut'ah?

Quote
You're getting all mixed up here. Take this; if the Prophet (s) prohibited Taraweeh then this is different than,
the Prophet (s) banned Taraweeh because Allah prohibited it. See the difference. The first one wouldn't be in the Qoran because it is from the Prophet (s) alone and his own action.

But the second is also the Prophet's (s) action but it is not from the Prophet (s) but from and because of Allah and HAS to be in the QORAN.

No, it is you that doesn't know basic Usool al-Fiqh from both Ja'fari and non-Ja'fari sources, everything the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم orders and prohibits is from Allah, as is found in Sur'ah 53 verse 3-4.  So if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم bans something, the ban is from Allah, regardless of whether it comes in the Qur'an or not.

The fact that you sidetracked about this for two straight posts while not addressing ONE point surely shows that you don't have any replies to what I am saying...
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 26, 2017, 08:15:22 PM
Lets all calm down and relax. I see emotions are running very high here and absolutely unnecessary.☺

Inshallah, this is the reason why I have come to this thread.  You should have taken your own advice and not gotten too emotional, because you really made a mistake in this post.

Quote
I don't know how many times I need to say, repeat and answer. Anyways, lets have another go.

You wouldn't have to repeat anything if you actually addressed a single point being raised to you.

Quote
Secondly sense and logic, reality and facts have their place then Qoran and Sunah. If something doesn't make sense, isn't logical, is not according to reality and facts, doesn't fit in or add up then it can't be in and from Qoran and Sunah. This is what my belief is based on. I don't know about yours.

I don't believe it makes sense that the Imamah isn't mentioned clearly in the Qur'an, and you do.  I don't think it makes sense that verese 33:33 is only about the 12 Imams and Fatimah عليها السلام, you do.  We all believe what we think makes sense, so lets stop beating around the bush and actually address the points.

Quote
Thirdly it's got nothing to do with my sister, daughter, neice etc or yours or anybody else's. Mutah is highly recommended but for who? For what? And why is it highly recommended? Please shake off and get rid of that mindset and start thinking straight.

You have yet to answer your own rhetorical questions.  We say its unlimited in the Ja'fari madhhab, you say it is limited, yet you have yet to provide any evidence other than your own personal opinion.

Quote
The reason why Mutah is permissible, highly recommended is because it was banned by rulers after Muhammad (s)  and it is considered as something bad in fact terrible by Muslims and in the Muslim community. The Shia Scholars issue fatwas or give statements to bring back the reputation and value of Mutah which has been damaged, damned and cursed by certain Muslims and their school of thought.

ALLAH AKBAR!  This is one of the most amazing admittance I have ever seen.  You are literally addmitting that the only reason the Ja'fari clergy attributed the LIE to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Imams that Mut'ah is recommended, was because the mainstream Muslims viewed it as "something bad."  You are right, I too agree with you that Mut'ah is not recommended, and that the Ja'fari clergy invented ahadeeth and statements attributed to the Imams just to oppose the mainstream Muslims.  This is why Mut'ah is taboo in Ja'fari culture.  بارك الله فيك for your honesty.

Quote
Will continue this.

Probably not a good idea, akhi.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 26, 2017, 08:19:14 PM
The Prophet (s) made Mutah permissible and you don't know why? What was the reason and purpose you don't know. What, this was top secret and had to be kept discreet?  The best you can do ànd come up with is 'forget about why'.

The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't prohibit Mut'ah initially just like he didn't prohibit alcohol initially.  You are unfortunately unable to grasp this simple concept, not banning something doesn't mean he ordered it or "made it halal."  He just didn't ban it, just like alcohol.  Unless you have a reason why the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم "made alcohol halal."

Quote
Mutah is not about choice but it is a solution for those who have harsh conditions, are in difficult situations or face complicated circumstances. All you need to do is use your sense and think with logic.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over whether providing evidence.  Where are these fatwaas that restrict Mut'ah, and how does that reconcile with the ahadeeth which say that doing Mut'ah four times places you on the same station as the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم?

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 26, 2017, 08:21:49 PM
Mut'ah Banned by Umar *snip*

Here are my list of questions from earlier, which you again, ignored.  Please notice question number 4.

1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 01:00:11 AM
try asking your shia scholar to let their daughter to do mutah which they themselves said is "highly recommend". Lets see if your shia scholars think highly of shia mutah's reputation 😂😂

And if she's not interested then what? Does he force her?😀 No matter what Shia Scholars think they can't force anyone to engage. Can you if you believed in Mutah? Just because you believed in Mutah does that mean you would encourage your sister or daughter?

Is this what you're trying to get at? You can't even force or push even encourage your sister or daughter in to nikah never mind about Mutah. Sort yourself out.😁
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 01:09:10 AM
You said;

"No, I believe he صلى الله عليه وسلم permitted it because of the basic Usooli principle shared by Ja'faris and non-Ja'faris, "everything in this dunya is halal unless there is evidence it is haram."  Just like alcohol was halal for a while, and then it was made haram.  Same thing here."

Are you telling me before Muhammad (s) there was no religion or faith from Allah? Is alcohol and pork not Haram according to the bible? Please do correct me. There were people who followed the religion of Abraham passed on through David, Moses and Jesus before Muhammad (s).

What was permissible and what prohibited what allowed and what disallowed was in place before Muhammad (s). This is where I disagree with you. Muhammad (s) didn't introduce Islam in fact he introduced the final revelation. Islam was already in place before Muhammad (s).
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 27, 2017, 05:12:56 AM

Firstly Shia Scholars differ in thought, opinion and point of view just exactly as the Suni Scholars do. Same applies to books written by Shia or Suni Scholars. One shouldn't handpick something at random just to prove their point according to their mindset be it Shia or Suni.
I quote the saying of your Imam. Are you saying your Imams differ with each other?

Secondly sense and logic, reality and facts have their place then Qoran and Sunah. If something doesn't make sense, isn't logical, is not according to reality and facts, doesn't fit in or add up then it can't be in and from Qoran and Sunah. This is what my belief is based on. I don't know about yours.
I say, it's not necessary that your mind to be considered the tool to judge a thing. There are people who followed this path and have been led astray. For example: There are people who believe that a virgin lady giving birth to a child without a man touching her is against sense, logic, reality and facts. Hence they rejected that maryam(as) could give birth to Isa(as) without a man touching her. Hence they went astray.

Also your self made methodology has been refuted by  Imam Ali.

Ali ibn Abi Talib(ra) said, “If the religion were based upon one’s opinion, one might expect the bottom of the leather sock to be wiped instead of the top, yet I have seen the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, wiping over the upper part of his leather socks.” [Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 162; Sahih]

As per logic the sock which we wear is to be wiped at the bottom not the top, yet we do it because Prophet(saws) did it.

Similarly, Imam Abu Hanifah said, ‘If I were to rule according to my opinion, I would have made ghusl necessary after urination as it (urine) is impure by consensus and [I would have made] wudhu [necessary] from semen as its impurity is disputed’”
[Mirqātul Mafātīḥ, volume 2, page 480]

Logically speaking urine is impure by consensus and semen being impure is disputed. Yet, we are commanded to take bath after semen discharge but not urine, even though urine is more impure.

Similarly another example is about salah(prayer) and Fast(sawm). We know that the importance of prayer is higher than Fasting, yet for the menstruating woman Allah has Obligated the woman to make up for her Fasts rather than her Prayers’.

I can give you more of such examples to show your utter ignorance and deviance.



Thirdly it's got nothing to do with my sister, daughter, neice etc or yours or anybody else's. Mutah is highly recommended but for who? For what? And why is it highly recommended? Please shake off and get rid of that mindset and start thinking straight.
The question was not about what is recommedable. But rather the question was about which out of the two was better than the other. And you failed to even give a scenario wherein Mutah would be better than permanent marriage.


The reason why Mutah is permissible, highly recommended is because it was banned by rulers after Muhammad (s)  and it is considered as something bad in fact terrible by Muslims and in the Muslim community. The Shia Scholars issue fatwas or give statements to bring back the reputation and value of Mutah which has been damaged, damned and cursed by certain Muslims and their school of thought.

Will continue this.
That's incorrect and this misconception has been shattered, if you want to live with your misconceptions then it's up to you. But the fact is that, We have proven Mutah to be prohibited from Quran and the authentic narrations of Prophet Muhammad(saws). So it's just a lie by Shia scholars who say Mutah was banned by Rulers.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 27, 2017, 05:28:21 AM
Now if Mutah was considered taboo in the Shia community then people wouldn't practice it all. And they would advise others not to as well giving their reasons. What ever fatwa or statement a Shia Scholar has given one needs to ask that particular scholar for a detailed explanation rather than taking it at face value and giving it your own meaning and explanation based on your own understanding and mindset.
Please don't put words in my mouth just to make things easy for you. Where did I say that Mutah is considered a taboo in Shia community?

I just said that Permanent marriage is considered better in comparision to Mutah in Shia community. Now how does this mean Mutah is considered a taboo in Shia community ? I know very well that Shias don't see Mutah as bad, however Shia community considers Permanent marriage to be better than Mutah(temporary marriage).

If I say Apple is better than Mango, how could you conclude that I mean Mango is bad ? It just displays your poor understanding skill.


I have said this before and I will say it again that when it comes to my sister or daughter, it is not for me to choose for them. In fact it is down to them. And if they choose not to engage in Mutah then that is their choice. Just because they choose not to doesn't mean Mutah is bad or it is taboo with in Shia community.
Calm down. I did not say Mutah is considered bad by Shias. It's was your misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 27, 2017, 05:57:17 AM
The Prophet (s) made Mutah permissible and you don't know why? What was the reason and purpose you don't know.
who said we don't know? We know it. And we know that it's situation was similar to the case of meat of swine, blood, etc. which means they are haram in general sense but was made permissible during necessity. However, later Mutah was made haram till qiyamah, hence one can't do it out of necessity also.


Again the Prophet (s) prohibited Mutah and you can't come up with a single answer to why? What was the reason and purpose you don't have the faintest, is this what you're telling me? Is this what your faith and belief is based on?
The similitude of Mutah is Alcohol. Allah said in Quran: {They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit."...2:219}

Just like alcohol, Mutah may have some advantages but the disadvantages of Mutah outweighs its advantages. Hence it was made haram, even though allowed for certain time period. 


Brother Khaled mentioned that the Prophet (s) banned Mutah because Allah prohibited it, he hasn't come up with the Quranic text of where and when Allah prohibited it.
Alhamdulillah! I have proven from Quran, using both Sunni and Shia hadeeth that Mutah has been abrogated. Refer post 110. And I don't find any academic refutation to it from your side.

So even after proving it from Quran, if you still don't accept it. Then you must pray to Allah to unseal your heart and to guide you.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on December 27, 2017, 10:34:23 AM
And if she's not interested then what? Does he force her?😀 No matter what Shia Scholars think they can't force anyone to engage. Can you if you believed in Mutah? Just because you believed in Mutah does that mean you would encourage your sister or daughter?

Is this what you're trying to get at? You can't even force or push even encourage your sister or daughter in to nikah never mind about Mutah. Sort yourself out.😁
i didnt tell anyone to force. Just go to your scholars and ASK. Just ask their daughters for mutah. Thats all you need to do and lets see how those pimps in turban react to your question 😂😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 02:09:25 PM
i didnt tell anyone to force. Just go to your scholars and ASK. Just ask their daughters for mutah. Thats all you need to do and lets see how those pimps in turban react to your question 😂😂

Well if this is the case then I don't deal with personal stuff based on hatred or grudge. I don't do or deal with such stuff where you try to undermine people because you hold a grudge or have hatred towards them. If you can't contribute positively then I suggest you zip it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 02:28:55 PM
Here are my list of questions from earlier, which you again, ignored.  Please notice question number 4.

1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?

The first question has been answered. Second question has also been answered but due to the ignorance of some individuals I will answer again. Mutah is not considered taboo in the Ja'fari community. I don't know where and how you got or came up with this.

You are not from this community so why make and exaggerate claims when you are not from a particular community. I don't see shias coming up here and considering and claiming about Mutah.

If members of that community came forward and claimed then we have some weight and an issue. Otherwise people are just jumping up and down trying to save a lost argument.

Number 3 has also been answered but will answer again. The Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible, why and for what reason and purpose? The answer given was 'exceptional circumstances'. Can anyone give me a clear and cut hadith written in black and white that the Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible only for exceptional circumstances? Or if someone can answer why the Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible?

If you ask you must also answer. When you demand you must also provide. Number 4, what do you think and make of those narrations about Omar banning Mut'ah, this is what you suppose to address rather than constantly questioning unnecessarily just to avoid answering and addressing.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 04:54:34 PM
You said;

"Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it."

I didn't make the point. It was made on this thread by someone that the Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible due to exceptional circumstances.

I do not believe that all those things that were Haram were halal before. This is something I disagree with.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 07:54:59 PM
You said;

"Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?"

Ok, we have two parts here; any principle, rule and regulation, any concession or benefit given, such as mutah, if misused or abused would consider to be wrong. Now before we speak about this particular woman you mention lets get something straight.

About Mut'ah and what Shia Scholars say about it, which you mention and quote, is this the fatwa or statement of one or two scholars or does the vast majority of the Shia scholars hold the same view? If the vast majority say and agree then we have something to discuss and this can be implemented on the Shia community. But if it's just one or two odd scholars then that is their point of view which they need to elaborate. This can't be implemented and labelled on the entire Shia community.

Now the woman you speak about firstly how true this story is or not one needs to look into. Secondly this is exactly my point that if we go by the fact that in the Shia community Mutah is something that is practiced commonly then what's all the fuss about.

This woman who is told off not because mutah is seen as taboo but because it isn't a common practice and it is down to exceptional circumstances otherwise why is she told off? Going by your statements and claims she shouldn't be told off but she is. Why, exactly my point that it's based on exceptional circumstances and mutah is there and available for need and if needed. Not for choice or do as you please.

None of you belong to the Shia community so why are you so ignorant on this? What do you know about the Shia community? Making claims and then being ignorant. You claimed that the Prophet (s) banned mutah because Allah prohibited it. This definitely needs to be proven from the Qoran. But if the Prophet (s) makes a decision based on his own understanding and reasoning then we need to accept this. But this is not from Allah but from the Prophet (s) and doesn't need to be proven from the Qoran because it's not Allah's decision but the Prophets.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2017, 08:19:40 PM
I quote the saying of your Imam. Are you saying your Imams differ with each other?
 I say, it's not necessary that your mind to be considered the tool to judge a thing. There are people who followed this path and have been led astray. For example: There are people who believe that a virgin lady giving birth to a child without a man touching her is against sense, logic, reality and facts. Hence they rejected that maryam(as) could give birth to Isa(as) without a man touching her. Hence they went astray.

Also your self made methodology has been refuted by  Imam Ali.

Ali ibn Abi Talib(ra) said, “If the religion were based upon one’s opinion, one might expect the bottom of the leather sock to be wiped instead of the top, yet I have seen the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, wiping over the upper part of his leather socks.” [Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 162; Sahih]

As per logic the sock which we wear is to be wiped at the bottom not the top, yet we do it because Prophet(saws) did it.

Similarly, Imam Abu Hanifah said, ‘If I were to rule according to my opinion, I would have made ghusl necessary after urination as it (urine) is impure by consensus and [I would have made] wudhu [necessary] from semen as its impurity is disputed’”
[Mirqātul Mafātīḥ, volume 2, page 480]

Logically speaking urine is impure by consensus and semen being impure is disputed. Yet, we are commanded to take bath after semen discharge but not urine, even though urine is more impure.

Similarly another example is about salah(prayer) and Fast(sawm). We know that the importance of prayer is higher than Fasting, yet for the menstruating woman Allah has Obligated the woman to make up for her Fasts rather than her Prayers’.

I can give you more of such examples to show your utter ignorance and deviance.


The question was not about what is recommedable. But rather the question was about which out of the two was better than the other. And you failed to even give a scenario wherein Mutah would be better than permanent marriage.

That's incorrect and this misconception has been shattered, if you want to live with your misconceptions then it's up to you. But the fact is that, We have proven Mutah to be prohibited from Quran and the authentic narrations of Prophet Muhammad(saws). So it's just a lie by Shia scholars who say Mutah was banned by Rulers.

As far as my Imams are concerned or even the Prophet (s) as a matter of fact, anything attributed to them needs to be looked at and carefully examined. I do not accept anything and everything at face value. Are we clear on this? A lot of things have been attributed to them that this is what they said and this is from them but in fact it's got nothing to do with them. They are either false to begin with or are exaggerated or fabricated full stop.

My mind is not the tool to judge. Neither is my thought or opinion that important. I'm talking about reality and facts, don't ignore them and don't forget to use sense and logic.

A woman becoming pregnant and giving birth without touching a man isn't against reality and facts or against sense and logic. It all depends on the time and generation. These days this isn't strange or considered impossible. Test tube babies is your answer. But going back to Mother Mary and the birth of Jesus, those where different times.

You quoted the saying of Ali, again I am not talking about thought and opinion but about reality and facts, sense and logic, nature or statistics.

You said;

"The question was not about what is recommedable. But rather the question was about which out of the two was better than the other. And you failed to even give a scenario wherein Mutah would be better than permanent marriage."

You've said it yourself. Why do I need to answer something which I've answered in great detail. Which is better nikah or mutah? I say why even ask when facts and statistics are there? In the Shia community which is commonly practiced and which isn't? It's absolutely obvious, NIKAH. Why even ask which is known based on facts and statistics. This is my point that Nikah is commonly practiced and mutah isn't. Why? Not because Mut'ah is taboo but because it's there for exceptional circumstances.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 27, 2017, 08:45:14 PM
The first question has been answered.

By a fatwa which you didn't copy and paste fully, which stated "Therefore, if it leads to conflict, accusation or vile consequences matters that are not acceptable by the Divine Legislator, it is rendered impermissible for the mukallaf to be indulged in such a marriage."  i.e., if it taboo in the community, then it is rendered impermissible.

Quote
that "Second question has also been answered but due to the ignorance of some individuals I will answer again. Mutah is not considered taboo in the Ja'fari community. I don't know where and how you got or came up with this.


Here are some links from the biggest English speaking Shi'i (Ja'fari) website online:
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234993058-is-mutah-common-in-your-area/
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235024238-is-mutah-frowned-upon-in-your-culture/

I can keep linking to threads, but just those two are more than enough.  It is certainly a taboo in Ja'fari culture.  Only exceptions seem to be "Lebanese youth" according to those threads.

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You are not from this community so why make and exaggerate claims when you are not from a particular community. I don't see shias coming up here and considering and claiming about Mutah.

A) you don't have to be part of a community to know its taboos, B) There are Shi'is here, on this very thread, who share the same perspective, c) Shia aren't "coming up here and considering and claiming about Mutah" (?) because they already have Shiachat.  They come here to try to defend Mutah (unsuccessfully).

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If members of that community came forward and claimed then we have some weight and an issue. Otherwise people are just jumping up and down trying to save a lost argument.

Except they are on every single thread ever created on Shiachat about Mut'ah (and sometimes on threads that aren't about it).

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Number 3 has also been answered but will answer again.

Number 3 was asking you to provide a fatwa or hadeeth statement from the Prophet or Imams stating it was for exceptional circumstances.  It is YOUR belief that it is for exceptional circumstances.

Mutah is a virtuous act but for who? And why? Those with exceptional circumstances depending on their situation and condition where one fears or eventually and secretly indulges in Haram/sinful acts it is highly recommended and a virtuous act with rewards from refraining from Haram and sinful acts and deeds.

Once again Mutah is there for those who feel the urge and need. Those with extreme circumstances and in difficult conditions. Those who most definitely know that they will end up doing something sinful/Haram.

Now, lets see if you actually answer, or if you just repeat the same stuff you've been saying over and over that no one agrees with you on.

Quote
The Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible, why and for what reason and purpose? The answer given was 'exceptional circumstances'. Can anyone give me a clear and cut hadith written in black and white that the Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible only for exceptional circumstances? Or if someone can answer why the Prophet (s) made Mut'ah permissible?

Like I anticipated, no answer.

Quote
If you ask you must also answer. When you demand you must also provide. Number 4, what do you think and make of those narrations about Omar banning Mut'ah, this is what you suppose to address rather than constantly questioning unnecessarily just to avoid answering and addressing.

It is well known amongst non-Ja'faris (including Zaidis and Ismailis) that Mut'ah was banned by mutawatir ahadeeth from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, one of those reports coming by way of Imam Ali رضي الله عنه.  The reports by certain companions stating otherwise are them just not knowing that Mut'ah was prohibited.  I'd trust Omar, Ali رضي الله عنهما and the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم over the companions that thought otherwise.  Now, can you answer my question, do you think Bukhari, Muslim and ALL THE OTHER hadeeth scholars from the early period reported these ahadeeth because they thought Omar banned Mut'ah?  Remember, it is you that says "if you ask you must also answer."  Even though you have yet to answer one question brought to you other than "Is Mut'ah Mustahabb?"  Which you answered with an incomplete fatwa.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 27, 2017, 08:52:11 PM
Are you telling me before Muhammad (s) there was no religion or faith from Allah? Is alcohol and pork not Haram according to the bible? Please do correct me. There were people who followed the religion of Abraham passed on through David, Moses and Jesus before Muhammad (s).

Of course there was faith before, just not the laws of Islam.  Allah says in the Qur'an, (05:48) "To each of you we have given a sharee'ah and a minhaj."  It is well known that all the Prophets عليهم السلام preached the same message, but not the same law.  I would imagine you're the first Muslim, Ja'fari or non-Ja'fari, who has made the claim that all religions have the same system of law.  Nonetheless, from this, I gather that you believe Mut'ah is found in the Bible?

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What was permissible and what prohibited what allowed and what disallowed was in place before Muhammad (s). This is where I disagree with you. Muhammad (s) didn't introduce Islam in fact he introduced the final revelation. Islam was already in place before Muhammad (s).

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the relaxed attitude towards referring to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم as merely Muhammad by the Ja'faris will always puzzle.  But خير إن شاء الله.

I don't think what you're saying here is mainstream Ja'fari views, so I'll just refrain from going any further here.  Noone, Ja'fari or non-Ja'fari, believes that each religion follows the same Sharee'ah.  Nor is the concept of Mut'ah found outside of pre-Islamic Arabia or among Ja'faris.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 27, 2017, 08:58:58 PM
Ok, we have two parts here; any principle, rule and regulation, any concession or benefit given, such as mutah, if misused or abused would consider to be wrong. Now before we speak about this particular woman you mention lets get something straight.

Ok, إن شاء الله.

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About Mut'ah and what Shia Scholars say about it, which you mention and quote, is this the fatwa or statement of one or two scholars or does the vast majority of the Shia scholars hold the same view? If the vast majority say and agree then we have something to discuss and this can be implemented on the Shia community. But if it's just one or two odd scholars then that is their point of view which they need to elaborate. This can't be implemented and labelled on the entire Shia community.

I only quoted the fatwa you did, but the full thing instead of partially like you did.  I do agree with you, that linking Mut'ah to prostitution because one Shi'i scholar deemed it permissible to do it with a prostitute is wrong and I shut down the brother who was trying to make that claim.  He stopped posting after I called him out for equating Mut'ah with prostitution.  So please, when discussing with me, keep that in mind.

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Now the woman you speak about firstly how true this story is or not one needs to look into.

Irrelevant since my point is look at the reaction.  Why would they react that way if Mut'ah is a recommended act?

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Secondly this is exactly my point that if we go by the fact that in the Shia community Mutah is something that is practiced commonly then what's all the fuss about.

I didn't say it wasn't practiced, I said its taboo.  The fatwa you linked discouraged Mut'ah if it is considered something shameful in the community.

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This woman who is told off not because mutah is seen as taboo but because it isn't a common practice and it is down to exceptional circumstances otherwise why is she told off? Going by your statements and claims she shouldn't be told off but she is. Why, exactly my point that it's based on exceptional circumstances and mutah is there and available for need and if needed. Not for choice or do as you please.

Umm... according to my statements she SHOULD be told off because the community would view a woman committing Mut'ah with more than one man as being something taboo.  This, despite that fact that your scholars made up ahadeeth that doing it four times will put you on the same status as the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم.  Why would they discourage her if that is the case?

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None of you belong to the Shia community so why are you so ignorant on this? What do you know about the Shia community? Making claims and then being ignorant. You claimed that the Prophet (s) banned mutah because Allah prohibited it. This definitely needs to be proven from the Qoran.

No it doesn't, anything the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم prohibits he does though by the order of Allah.  This is mainstream Ja'fari and non-Ja'fari views.  You seem to be an exception here
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on December 27, 2017, 09:04:26 PM
As far as my Imams are concerned or even the Prophet (s) as a matter of fact, anything attributed to them needs to be looked at and carefully examined. I do not accept anything and everything at face value. Are we clear on this? A lot of things have been attributed to them that this is what they said and this is from them but in fact it's got nothing to do with them. They are either false to begin with or are exaggerated or fabricated full stop.

I agree with you, that's why I think the attribution to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Imams that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act is a LIE.  I think this is actually one thing we agree on.

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My mind is not the tool to judge. Neither is my thought or opinion that important. I'm talking about reality and facts, don't ignore them and don't forget to use sense and logic.

I'm so confused, are we to use or minds or not?

Quote
A woman becoming pregnant and giving birth without touching a man isn't against reality and facts or against sense and logic. It all depends on the time and generation. These days this isn't strange or considered impossible. Test tube babies is your answer. But going back to Mother Mary and the birth of Jesus, those where different times.

So, according to you, a woman claiming to get pregnant without a man touching her is possible, because today we have test tube babies.

Quote
You've said it yourself. Why do I need to answer something which I've answered in great detail. Which is better nikah or mutah? I say why even ask when facts and statistics are there? In the Shia community which is commonly practiced and which isn't? It's absolutely obvious, NIKAH. Why even ask which is known based on facts and statistics. This is my point that Nikah is commonly practiced and mutah isn't. Why? Not because Mut'ah is taboo but because it's there for exceptional circumstances.

What is your evidence it is there for exceptional circumstances?  Fatwa, hadeeth, anything please.  You keep claiming this, then asking us to prove it, its the strangest argument I have ever seen.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2017, 12:00:36 AM
I agree with you, that's why I think the attribution to the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Imams that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act is a LIE.  I think this is actually one thing we agree on.

I'm so confused, are we to use or minds or not?

So, according to you, a woman claiming to get pregnant without a man touching her is possible, because today we have test tube babies.

What is your evidence it is there for exceptional circumstances?  Fatwa, hadeeth, anything please.  You keep claiming this, then asking us to prove it, its the strangest argument I have ever seen.

This was your first post,

"Akhi, I notice that you don't like the tone that the OP asked his question, but because I am interested in what he was asking, I was hoping you can have the conversation with me instead of him.

My research, may Allah guide you and I to that which He loves and approves of, has led me to believe that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act in the Ja'fari Madhhab.  Yet, me experience with Ja'faris, and your posts are an example of this, tend to show a very defensive nature to the act.  The question that non-Ja'faris tend to have is, if the act is recommended; then why isn't it more prevalent in Ja'fari culture?  Why is it that simply asking about it gets this extremely defensive reaction?

I hope you understand my question and my concerns, brother."

Note this,

"has led me to believe that Mut'ah is a highly recommended act in the Ja'fari Madhhab."

Now we clearly need to understand this. And this is exactly where the confusion lies.

Mutah is a HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ACT. What does this mean? Highly recommended act in general or in specific? Is mutah a highly recommended act as tahujjut, night prayer. Is it a highly recommend act as Umrah. Is it a highly recommended act such as ziyarath.

Mutah is not a highly recommended act in in general or itself, it's a highly recommended act compared to this that and the other which will lead to indecent and unappropriate behaviour or sinful acts. And these are based or arise due to exceptional circumstances.

A question we need to ask ourselves again and again that why was mutah permissible during the Prophet's (s) time? This is a very unique and important question which we seem to avoid by shoving it to the side. Surely it was permissible for a reason and purpose. We look into and are aware of many other things but here we choose to remain silent and quiet. WHY?

Then another very unique and important question to why all of a sudden the Prophet (s) banned it. What was the reason and purpose for that ban? Surely these are important and straightforward questions which need to be answered but are deliberately and intentionally avoided. WHY? Because the answers clearly lie in these two questions;

1, Why was mutah permissible during the Prophet's (s) time? What was the reason and purpose?
2, Why was mutah banned by the Prophet (s)? What was the reason and purpose for the ban?

This is where the answers lie and the discussion can be brought to an end with a positive conclusion.

Why are these questions been avoided?  What have we got to hide and cover?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 28, 2017, 01:33:40 AM
Mut'ah Banned by Umar
Refer this article, which refutes this misconception:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/02/16/banning-mutah-time-omar/


Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 43:

Narrated 'Imran bin Husain: The Verse of muta was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Apostle, and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet prohibit it till he died. But the man (omar) just expressed what his own mind suggested.

The Shia websites have fooled you people. The hadeeth is about Mutah of Hajj not Mutah of women.

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى، عَنْ عِمْرَانَ أَبِي بَكْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو رَجَاءٍ، عَنْ عِمْرَانَ بْنِ حُصَيْنٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ أُنْزِلَتْ آيَةُ الْمُتْعَةِ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ فَفَعَلْنَاهَا مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم، وَلَمْ يُنْزَلْ قُرْآنٌ يُحَرِّمُهُ، وَلَمْ يَنْهَ عَنْهَا حَتَّى مَاتَ قَالَ رَجُلٌ بِرَأْيِهِ مَا شَاءَ
 Narrated `Imran bin Husain: The Verse of Hajj-at-Tamatu was revealed in Allah's Book, so we performed it with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and nothing was revealed in Qur'an to make it illegal, nor did the Prophet (ﷺ) prohibit it till he died. But the man (who regarded it illegal) just expressed what his own mind suggested. [Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 43]

A similar hadeeth can also be found in Sahih Muslim.

حَدَّثَنَا حَامِدُ بْنُ عُمَرَ الْبَكْرَاوِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي بَكْرٍ الْمُقَدَّمِيُّ، قَالاَ حَدَّثَنَا بِشْرُ، بْنُ الْمُفَضَّلِ حَدَّثَنَا عِمْرَانُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، عَنْ أَبِي رَجَاءٍ، قَالَ قَالَ عِمْرَانُ بْنُ حُصَيْنٍ نَزَلَتْ آيَةُ الْمُتْعَةِ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ - يَعْنِي مُتْعَةَ الْحَجِّ - وَأَمَرَنَا بِهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ثُمَّ لَمْ تَنْزِلْ آيَةٌ تَنْسَخُ آيَةَ مُتْعَةِ الْحَجِّ وَلَمْ يَنْهَ عَنْهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم حَتَّى مَاتَ ‏.‏ قَالَ رَجُلٌ بِرَأْيِهِ بَعْدُ مَا شَاءَ
 'Imran b. Husain said: There was revealed the verse of Tamattu' in Hajj in the Book of Allah and the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) commanded us to perform it. and then no verse was revealed abrogating the Tamattu' (form of Hajj), and the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) did not forbid to do it till he died. So whatever a person said was his personal opinion. [Sahih Muslim, Book 7, Hadith 2831]

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3250:

Abu Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jabir b. Abdullah, a person came to him and said that Ibn 'Abbas and Ibn Zubair differed on the two types of Mut'as (muta of Hajj and muta of women), whereupon Jabir said: We used to do these two during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh Umar then forbade us to do them, and so we did not revert to them.

Ibn Hajar in Fath Al-Bari comments that the last statement{so we did not revert to them} by Jabir(ra) suggests that he sided with the consensus, which is that mutah is prohibited, for if it was permissible, then he would have taught the permissibility of it after the death of Omar(ra).

Ibn Hajar is correct for Jabir lived for another five decades after Omar and never returned to what was supposedly permissible, nor was he known to having preached the permissibility of mutah. This is evidence that he accepted the prohibition of Omar, since the prohibition of Omar has supporting evidence from the traditions of the Prophet – peace be upon him –



Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3248:

Ibn Uraij reported: 'Ati' reported that jibir b. Abdullah came to perform 'Umra, and we came to his abode, and the people asked him about different things, and then they made a mention of temporary marriage, whereupon he said: Yes, we had been benefiting ourselves by this temporary marriage during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet pbuh and during the time of Abi Bakr and 'Umar.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3249:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: We contracted temporary marriage giving a handful of (tales or flour as a dower during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger pbuh and durnig the time of Abu Bakr until 'Umar forbade it in the case of 'Amr b. Huraith.
Jabir(ra) was not aware that mutah was prohibited by the Prophet(Saws). When he was made aware, he sided with the consensus, which is that mutah is prohibited.

The actions of companions are not binding evidence for the legality of these actions, especially with the existence of clear cut prophetic-narrations in prohibition.

In this case, if a companion were to practice mutah, it does not mean that mutah is permissible. Similarly, the companions that practiced adultery or consuming intoxicants never believed in the permissibility of these actions.

As for those that clearly stated that mutah is permissible, then their opinions are trounced by the opinions of those who spoke of prohibition, since their evidence lies in authentic prophetic traditions. Those that preached the permissibility of mutah were not able to attribute it to the Prophet – peace be upon him – except by saying that it was practiced at his time.

It goes without saying that this is not sufficient evidence, since some people were consuming intoxicant and engaging in adultery at the time as well. It holds nowhere close to as much weight as the clear evidences for the prohibition of mutah.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 28, 2017, 01:43:49 AM
Shia Scholar al-Tusi narrated in his “Tahzeeb al-Ahkam” (7/253):

    (1089) 14 – واما ما رواه أحمد بن محمد عن ابى الحسن عن بعض اصحابنا يرفعه إلى ابي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: لا تتمتع بالمؤمنة فتذلها.
    فهذا حديث مقطوع الاسناد شاذ، ويحتمل ان يكون المراد به إذا كانت المرأة من اهل بيت الشرف فانه لايجوز التمتع بهالما يلحق اهلها من العار ويلحقها هي من الذل ويكون ذلك مكروها دون ان يكون محظورا.

    As for what is narrated from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Abu al-Hassan from some of our companions which is Marfu’u to Abu Abdullah -alaihi salam- that he said: “Do not humiliate the believing woman by having Mutah with her.” and this Hadith has a Maqtu’u Isnad and has Shuzouz in the Matn.

It is possible that what is meant in this narration is that if a believing woman was from a noble household then it is not allowed to have Mutah with her as it will dishonour her parents and disgrace her and this would be Makruh (Disliked) without it being forbidden.”
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2017, 11:44:48 AM
The first to make Mut’ah haraam was Umar”
Kitab al-Awail, page 1 by Hilal al-Hasan al-Askari (Madina, Saudi Arab)

"Indeed, the Sahaba deemed Umar to be a liar when it came to this issue".

We read in Tafseer Kabeer page 41:

Ali said: “Had Umar not banned Mut’ah then the only person to fornicate would be a wretched person.”
Tafseer al-Kabeer, Volume 4 Page 41
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2017, 12:22:08 PM
Imam of Ahle Sunnah Abu Auwanah Yaqoob bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim al-Nisaburi al-Isfraeini (d. 316 H) popularly known as Abu Auwanah records the following in his book Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 7 page 159 Hadith 2713:

“Yaqoob bin Sufyan – Amr bin Asim – Hamaam – Qatadah – Abi Nadhra said: ‘I said to Jabir bin Abdullah that Ibn Abbas permits Mut’ah while Ibn al-Zubair prohibits it. He (Jabir) replied: ‘It is through me that this hadith has been circulated, I performed Mut’ah along with Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and a verse was revealed regarding it but then when Umar bin al-Khatab become the caliph, he addressed the people and said: ‘The Quran is the same Quran, the apostle is the same apostle, and there existed two types of Mut’ah at the time of Allah’s apostle, I forbid both and will punish whoever performs them, one is the Mut’ah of Hajj, surely you have to separate your Hajj from your Umra, and the other is Mut’ah al-Nisa, if I catch any person who is married for an appointed duration (Mut’a), I will certainly stone him (to death).”
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2017, 02:59:58 PM
A similar account can also be read in Tarikh Madina via a variant chain of narration:
Muhammad bin Jaffar – Shu’aba – Qatadah – Abi Nadhra said: ‘Ibn Abbas (ra) used to permit Mut’ah whereas Ibn al-Zubair forbade it, thus I mentioned that to Jabir bin Abdullah and he replied: ‘Through me this hadith been circulated, we performed Mut’ah with Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) but when Umar became the ruler he said: ‘Allah would allow His Messenger to do whatever He wished, verily the Quran’s revelation has been completed, thus perform Hajj and Umra as Allah ordered you in a complete form and perform wedlock with women in a complete form, if I catch a man who has performed temporary wedlock with a woman, surely I will stone him’’’.


Imam Saaduddin Taftazani states in Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512:
“It has been narrated that Umar said: ‘Three things existed during the time of Allah’s Messenger, I forbid and make them Haram, these are Mut’ah al-Nisa, Mut’ah al-Hajj and “Hay ala Khayr al-Amal”…the answer is that this is issue of Ijtihad”.
Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2017, 03:08:04 PM
Imam of Ahle Sunnah Saeed bin Mansur (d. 227 H) records the following admission of Umar in his authority work Sunan Saeed bin Mansur, Volume 1 page 218 Tradition 852:

Saeed – Hushaim – Khalid – Abu Qulabah from Umar bin al-Khatab said: ‘Two types of Mut’ah were there during the time of Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and I prohibit both and will punish whoever performs it, Mut’ah with women and Mut’ah of Hajj’

Imam Sarkhasi records:

“It is Sahih that Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) prohibited the people from committing Mut’ah and said: ‘Two types of Mut’ah existed during the time of Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and I prohibit people from them, Mut’ah al-Nisa and Mut’ah al-Hajj’”.

We read in Kanz al-Ummal:
“Two types of Mut’ah were present during the lifetime of Rasulullah (s), I prohibit them both, Mut’ah of Nisa and Mut’ah of Hajj”

In Tafseer Kabeer:
Umar said: “Two Mut’ah’s existed during Rasulullah’s lifetime and I now prohibit both of them.”
Tafseer al Kabeer, by Imam Fakhr ul-Razi, Page 42 & 43
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 28, 2017, 03:12:11 PM
The first to make Mut’ah haraam was Umar”
Kitab al-Awail, page 1 by Hilal al-Hasan al-Askari (Madina, Saudi Arab)
The book you quoted is mentioned as a Shia reference on a Shia website.

Shi’a reference:

- al Awail, Abu Hilal al Askari, p 209

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/short-history-fadak-after-martyrdom-fatimah


Anyways as explained, Its a misconception that Umar(ra) banned Mutah. Because we have hadeeth of Prophet(saws). So Umar(ra) is relieved from this blame which was made out of ignorance by people. 

It was narrated that Ibn 'Umar said:
"When 'Umar bin Khattab was appointed caliph, he addressed the people and said: 'The Messenger of Allah permitted temporary marriage for us three times, then he forbade it. By Allah, If I hear of any married person entering a temporary marriage, I will stone him to death, unless he can bring me four witnesses who will testify that the Messenger of Allah, allowed it after he forbade it'." [Sunan Ibn majah, Book 9, Hadith 2039 ; Grading: Hasan].


"Indeed, the Sahaba deemed Umar to be a liar when it came to this issue".
wrong. Rather Umar(ra) was praised  by Ali(ra) for upholding the Sunnah and this can be proven from Shia book Nahjul balagha.

Ali said : May Allah reward such and such man, he straightened the curve, cured the disease, abandoned mischief, and established the Sunnah. He departed (from this world) with untarnished clothes and little shortcomings. He achieved the goodness (of this world) and remained safe from its evils. He offered Allah’s obedience and feared Him as He deserved. {Nahjul Balagha Sermon 227}

Shia scholar Ali bin moosa tabreezi in his book miraat al kutub vol 6 page 712 said :

 What is intended by the word fulan here is the second khalipha, even though others say that someone else is intended. The Imami explanation for this is that , it was to win the hearts of his followers.


We read in Tafseer Kabeer page 41:

Ali said: “Had Umar not banned Mut’ah then the only person to fornicate would be a wretched person.”
Tafseer al-Kabeer, Volume 4 Page 41
The narration is unreliable because, it's reported from Al-Hakam bin Abi Utaibah. Al-Hakam, however, was born after the death of Ali according to several scholars. See his biography in Tahtheeb Al-Tahtheeb.

What is authentically reported from Ali(ra) is that Mutah was banned by Prophet(saws). We can see this fact mentioned in the books of different Sects.


In book of twelver Shia:

We read in Shia hadeeth  in Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali  that he said: The Messenger of Allah – peace be upon him – forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages.

In book of Ismaili Shia:

In the Isma`eeli book “Da`a’im-ul-Islam” volume 2, pages 228 by their scholar al-Qadi al-Nu`man al-Maghribi.

٨٥٨ وعن رسول الله (صلع) أنه حرم نكاح المتعة، وعن علي (ع) أنه قال: لا نكاح إلا بولي وشاهدين وليس بالدرهم والدرهمين، واليوم واليومين، ذلك السفاح ولا شرط في النكاح

[From Rasul-Allah (saw) that he forbade Mut`ah marriage, and from `Ali (as) that he said: “Marriage is invalid without a custodian and two witnesses, it is not for one or two Dirhams, nor is it for (the period of) a day or two, because that would be unlawful sexual intercourse and there are no conditions in marriage.”]

In the book of Zaydi Shia:

In their main book “Musnad al-Imam Zayd” volume 1 page 271, we read:

عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ جَدِّهِ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ، قَالَ: نَهَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ عَنْ نِكَاحِ الْمُتْعَةِ عَامَ خَيْبَرَ

[From his father, from his grandfather, from `Ali may Allah be pleased with them: “Rasul-Allah (saw) has forbidden the Mut`ah marriage on the year of Khaybar.”]


In Book of Sunnis:

In Saheeh Muslim #3417-3421.

Ali narrates: The Messenger of Allah – peace be upon him – prohibited the mutah marriage of woman on Khaibar and consuming the (meat of the) domestic donkey.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 28, 2017, 03:21:35 PM
Imam of Ahle Sunnah Abu Auwanah Yaqoob bin Ishaq bin Ibrahim al-Nisaburi al-Isfraeini (d. 316 H) popularly known as Abu Auwanah records the following in his book Mustakhraj Abi Auwanah, Volume 7 page 159 Hadith 2713:

“Yaqoob bin Sufyan – Amr bin Asim – Hamaam – Qatadah – Abi Nadhra said: ‘I said to Jabir bin Abdullah that Ibn Abbas permits Mut’ah while Ibn al-Zubair prohibits it. He (Jabir) replied: ‘It is through me that this hadith has been circulated, I performed Mut’ah along with Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and a verse was revealed regarding it but then when Umar bin al-Khatab become the caliph, he addressed the people and said: ‘The Quran is the same Quran, the apostle is the same apostle, and there existed two types of Mut’ah at the time of Allah’s apostle, I forbid both and will punish whoever performs them, one is the Mut’ah of Hajj, surely you have to separate your Hajj from your Umra, and the other is Mut’ah al-Nisa, if I catch any person who is married for an appointed duration (Mut’a), I will certainly stone him (to death).”

The hadeeth of jabir(ra) has already been answered in the previous posts.

 Scholars have explained this by saying that Omar was simply confirming a ban that was first made by the Prophet – peace be upon him.

This is supported by a narration in Sunan Ibn Majah #1953 which states that Umar said: The Messenger of Allah permitted temporary marriage for us three times, then he forbade it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 28, 2017, 03:24:55 PM
A similar account can also be read in Tarikh Madina via a variant chain of narration:
Muhammad bin Jaffar – Shu’aba – Qatadah – Abi Nadhra said: ‘Ibn Abbas (ra) used to permit Mut’ah whereas Ibn al-Zubair forbade it, thus I mentioned that to Jabir bin Abdullah and he replied: ‘Through me this hadith been circulated, we performed Mut’ah with Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) but when Umar became the ruler he said: ‘Allah would allow His Messenger to do whatever He wished, verily the Quran’s revelation has been completed, thus perform Hajj and Umra as Allah ordered you in a complete form and perform wedlock with women in a complete form, if I catch a man who has performed temporary wedlock with a woman, surely I will stone him’’’.


Imam Saaduddin Taftazani states in Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512:
“It has been narrated that Umar said: ‘Three things existed during the time of Allah’s Messenger, I forbid and make them Haram, these are Mut’ah al-Nisa, Mut’ah al-Hajj and “Hay ala Khayr al-Amal”…the answer is that this is issue of Ijtihad”.
Sharh Maqasid, Volume 3 page 512

 Scholars have explained this by saying that Omar was simply confirming a ban that was first made by the Prophet – peace be upon him.

This is supported by a narration in Sunan Ibn Majah #1953 which states that Umar said: The Messenger of Allah permitted temporary marriage for us three times, then he forbade it.

Also we find that the narration by Omar is corroborated by Ali, Ibn Omar, Sabra, and Salama. Hence it's a clear evidence that it was Prophet(saws) who forbade Mutah.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on December 28, 2017, 03:26:57 PM
Imam of Ahle Sunnah Saeed bin Mansur (d. 227 H) records the following admission of Umar in his authority work Sunan Saeed bin Mansur, Volume 1 page 218 Tradition 852:

Saeed – Hushaim – Khalid – Abu Qulabah from Umar bin al-Khatab said: ‘Two types of Mut’ah were there during the time of Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and I prohibit both and will punish whoever performs it, Mut’ah with women and Mut’ah of Hajj’

Imam Sarkhasi records:

“It is Sahih that Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) prohibited the people from committing Mut’ah and said: ‘Two types of Mut’ah existed during the time of Allah’s Messenger (pbuh) and I prohibit people from them, Mut’ah al-Nisa and Mut’ah al-Hajj’”.

We read in Kanz al-Ummal:
“Two types of Mut’ah were present during the lifetime of Rasulullah (s), I prohibit them both, Mut’ah of Nisa and Mut’ah of Hajj”

In Tafseer Kabeer:
Umar said: “Two Mut’ah’s existed during Rasulullah’s lifetime and I now prohibit both of them.”
Tafseer al Kabeer, by Imam Fakhr ul-Razi, Page 42 & 43

 Scholars have explained this by saying that Omar was simply confirming a ban that was first made by the Prophet – peace be upon him.

This is supported by a narration in Sunan Ibn Majah #1953 which states that Umar said: The Messenger of Allah permitted temporary marriage for us three times, then he forbade it.

Also we find that the narration by Omar is corroborated by Ali, Ibn Omar, Sabra, and Salama. Hence it's a clear evidence that it was Prophet(saws) who forbade Mutah.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 06, 2018, 02:41:18 AM
As-Salaamu alaikum to all here. If I may offer my opinion, I find it quite strange that aversion to nikkah mut'ah in the Shia community should be considered indicative of anything.

Just as it is human nature to indulge in some things which Allah(swt) has forbidden, it is also unsurprising that people close off to themselves practices which have been made halal.

Opposition to mut'ah in Shia communities is actually not very widespread because mut'ah itself is not widespread. What can be said is that mut'ah has a definitive purpose, and those who have not found themselves in situations which mut'ah is designed for may disapprove of it out of ignorance.

It is this same ignorance which causes polygamy to be stigmatised, or which leads to marriage proposals from individuals of the "wrong" skin colour being rejected.
There are many right and decent things which society stigmatises without wisdom or justification.

Regarding the question of "would you approve of it for your sister/daughter", the response is that this often in fact does happen. It's not unusual for mut'ah to be contracted, with the stipulation that no intercourse will take place, in order for young couples to see if they're compatible before committing to permanent nikah.
This reality is in stark contrast to the ideas of those who try to paint mut'ah as some sort of licence for promiscuity.

So no, mut'ah does not face the level of condemnation within Shia society which is being depicted by some here, and where condemnation does occur, it is often the result of ignorance of the purposes of mut'ah. None of this stands in logical contradiction to it being a mustahab act.

To those who criticise mut'ah, I would say that by doing so you're leaving a very obvious gap in the social structure, whereby a significant minority of the population is forced into celibacy on a semi-permanent basis; and where couples have no opportunity, should they so wish, to get to know one another before lifelong commitment.

How can you account for this?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hani on January 06, 2018, 05:14:29 AM
Among the Shia I met, I was told that Mut`ah is widespread.
Never in the Hadith of the Imam was Mut`ah done for the purpose of "getting to know" someone, it's always clearly highlighted that it's about seeking sexual pleasure (aka Mut`ah).
People can get to know each-other without Mut`ah, who told you talking to the opposite gender is Haram?
No one is forced into celibacy, you can marry another poor person or a person of your level.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 06, 2018, 11:12:52 AM
Among the Shia I met, I was told that Mut`ah is widespread.
Never in the Hadith of the Imam was Mut`ah done for the purpose of "getting to know" someone, it's always clearly highlighted that it's about seeking sexual pleasure (aka Mut`ah).
People can get to know each-other without Mut`ah, who told you talking to the opposite gender is Haram?
No one is forced into celibacy, you can marry another poor person or a person of your level.

If it's widespread then where does the taboo thing come in? You've been given the wrong information. It wasn't widespread during the Prophet's (s) time and neither is it widespread within us. We follow the Prophet (s). You follower the rulers or personalities after the Prophet (s). That's the difference!
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 06, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
Hani, the contract two individuals make before entering nikah mut'ah can have a wide variety of stipulations, just like permanent nikah. Saying that you've never heard of the Imams of the Ahl Al Bayt(as) referring to mut'ah in a particular context doesn't prove anything.

The observable fact is that mut'ah is used as a means for couples to get to know each other. If you doubt this, it just means you don't know Shia society.
Non-marital relations can't achieve this in the same way. Two non-mahrams talking with each other, as you mention, is completely different from a mut'ah, without intercourse, where a young couple can become much more familiar.

For some people it may be fine to marry someone they've never even met before - they have that choice if they want. But this is not suitable for everyone. Similarly, contracting mut'ah to check for compatibility is not for everyone, but some people prefer to do it that way and that is their right.

Celibacy is the natural result of people closing off temporary marriage, because permanent marriage is not possible for many people. Your idea that poor people can marry poor people as the solution is contrary to the reality across the Muslim world, where young people find themselves unable to marry until well into their twenties or thirties. And what about widowed or divorced older women, who may find it difficult to find suitors for permanent marriage?

You need to consider the wider needs of society as a whole, and the provision of nikah mut'ah is one aspect of this.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hani on January 07, 2018, 04:32:31 AM
Hani, the contract two individuals make before entering nikah mut'ah can have a wide variety of stipulations, just like permanent nikah. Saying that you've never heard of the Imams of the Ahl Al Bayt(as) referring to mut'ah in a particular context doesn't prove anything.

The observable fact is that mut'ah is used as a means for couples to get to know each other. If you doubt this, it just means you don't know Shia society.
Non-marital relations can't achieve this in the same way. Two non-mahrams talking with each other, as you mention, is completely different from a mut'ah, without intercourse, where a young couple can become much more familiar.

For some people it may be fine to marry someone they've never even met before - they have that choice if they want. But this is not suitable for everyone. Similarly, contracting mut'ah to check for compatibility is not for everyone, but some people prefer to do it that way and that is their right.

Celibacy is the natural result of people closing off temporary marriage, because permanent marriage is not possible for many people. Your idea that poor people can marry poor people as the solution is contrary to the reality across the Muslim world, where young people find themselves unable to marry until well into their twenties or thirties. And what about widowed or divorced older women, who may find it difficult to find suitors for permanent marriage?

You need to consider the wider needs of society as a whole, and the provision of nikah mut'ah is one aspect of this.

They refer to it in that context because that's what it's all about, let alone the narrations of already married men who are doing Mut`ah. The common factor between Mut`ah and other pre-marital relations is that they all could lead to adultery which is forbidden. Where's the historical evidence that Mut`ah was ever for purpose of getting to know someone by "marrying them temporarily" before permanent marriage? There's ZERO evidence for this even though humans are humans and their nature never changed. So how were those ancient Shia dealing with this great obstacle of getting to know someone before you modern day geniuses came up with the "Mut`ah as a means of dating" trick? How about going and meeting the parents then getting engaged and meeting your potential wife in safe environments like mature adults rather than doing a bogus "pleasure contract"?
 The solution for people who can't marry until their thirties isn't doing adultery, it's demanding the lazy governments of those countries to do economic reforms and provide jobs for their people. We know a ton of poor people that are married, there's always someone respectable to find, and even if marriage age is late due to social issues that means you must exercise patience during the times of tribulation not that you go and commit what's forbidden. I've not seen a more garbage practice in societies than Mut`ah nor have I seen more harm done to a community than that of Mut`ah. I've heard from countless Iraqis how it's become sex tourism over there since the Iranian pilgrims flooded with their Mut`ah.  So tell the thousands of bastard babies and abandoned Fetuses in Tehran about how great Mut`ah is for society.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 07, 2018, 11:15:39 AM
Hani, your account of what you believe goes on in Iran and Iraq continues to betray the fact that you have little knowledge of these societies and have probably never visited them.
Evidently, you get your information from highly biased sources with little credibility.

By referring to nikkah mut'ah as "adultery", you are actually showing disrespect to the Holy Prophet(saws), since all Muslims agree that he instructed the sahaaba to perform mut'ah.
Rather than calmly and rationally discussing the subject at hand, you are using such strong language that you are saying things you don't mean; I suggest you reflect on your motivations and reconsider your approach.

Again you are asking for "evidence" of something whose validity isn't in question. It's an observable fact that mut'ah is used by couples to see if they're compatible for permanent nikah, so what point are you trying to make by questioning how frequently this was done in past ages?
Islam is suitable for all times and places and it offers us solutions to life as befits the circumstances we find ourselves in. Having a second, third or fourth wife was common in certain regions historically, whereas it's rare today; either way is valid under Shari'ah. Do you have an objection to this?

Regarding the issues faced by unmarried youth across the Muslim world, the scale of the current problem belies the notion that it can be solved in the manner you suggest.
Asking "lazy governments" to make "economic reforms" is admirable, but it's not a direct solution to the problem.

As an aside, if you don't mind me asking: how many Muslim countries have you travelled to? And what is your means of knowing the societies you discuss?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 07, 2018, 12:55:36 PM
Hani, your account of what you believe goes on in Iran and Iraq continues to betray the fact that you have little knowledge of these societies and have probably never visited them.
Evidently, you get your information from highly biased sources with little credibility.

By referring to nikkah mut'ah as "adultery", you are actually showing disrespect to the Holy Prophet(saws), since all Muslims agree that he instructed the sahaaba to perform mut'ah.
Rather than calmly and rationally discussing the subject at hand, you are using such strong language that you are saying things you don't mean; I suggest you reflect on your motivations and reconsider your approach.

Again you are asking for "evidence" of something whose validity isn't in question. It's an observable fact that mut'ah is used by couples to see if they're compatible for permanent nikah, so what point are you trying to make by questioning how frequently this was done in past ages?
Islam is suitable for all times and places and it offers us solutions to life as befits the circumstances we find ourselves in. Having a second, third or fourth wife was common in certain regions historically, whereas it's rare today; either way is valid under Shari'ah. Do you have an objection to this?

Regarding the issues faced by unmarried youth across the Muslim world, the scale of the current problem belies the notion that it can be solved in the manner you suggest.
Asking "lazy governments" to make "economic reforms" is admirable, but it's not a direct solution to the problem.

As an aside, if you don't mind me asking: how many Muslim countries have you travelled to? And what is your means of knowing the societies you discuss?

They've actually been brought up in a world full of hatred towards Shias and a lot of nonsense concerning Shiaism. And their mind has developed and matured based on that grudge and hatred. So I completely understand their feelings and emotions.

They speak with a mindset. Unless they discuss with an open and free mind it is going to be hard for them to understand and difficult for us to get through to them. But as for you, very well said and put forward. More Shia brothers like you need to step forward and deal with this propaganda against Shiaism and the misunderstanding it's creating about Shias.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 07, 2018, 02:08:24 PM
The observable fact is that mut'ah is used as a means for couples to get to know each other. If you doubt this, it just means you don't know Shia society.
Non-marital relations can't achieve this in the same way. Two non-mahrams talking with each other, as you mention, is completely different from a mut'ah, without intercourse, where a young couple can become much more familiar.

They can become very familiar indeed as the stipulation of no intimacy holds for as long as the man and the woman see fit and it's permissible to revoke that anytime they wish. Guess what happens in such a circumstance?

By the way, what is the difference between marrying and divorcing and mut'ah. The only difference is that the first is done with a positive attitude and continuation of a relation is assumed, while the second is done with a negative attitude and an end of the relation is assumed. al Hasan ibn Ali married frequently and divorced frequently. Not one of those marriages were temporary.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 07, 2018, 02:40:52 PM
They've actually been brought up in a world full of hatred towards Shias and a lot of nonsense concerning Shiaism. And their mind has developed and matured based on that grudge and hatred. So I completely understand their feelings and emotions.

They speak with a mindset. Unless they discuss with an open and free mind it is going to be hard for them to understand and difficult for us to get through to them. But as for you, very well said and put forward. More Shia brothers like you need to step forward and deal with this propaganda against Shiaism and the misunderstanding it's creating about Shias.

Your words are too kind my brother. My thoughts mirror yours and it can be very hard for people to see beyond biases which have become entrenched in their characters.

It can be even harder when they suspect that something is true, because in order to justify their non-acceptance of that truth, they feel compelled to oppose it all the more bitterly.

I see this in the anti-Islamic mentalities some non-Muslims have come to hold in recent decades: some of them will listen and become reasonable when Islam is properly explained to them, but others will just keep coming even harder, because they perceive a truth which they don't want to accept.
Unfortunately some of our Sunni brothers act the same with regard to the Ahl al Bayt(as). In a sense, it's their own way of affirming the lofty position of Ahl al Bayt(as).

If we feel secure in what we are following, we don't feel the need to slander others and bring them down; instead we reach out to pull them up.

A little anecdote: Recently I was in Istanbul and I went to pray in the Sultan Ahmet Camii (Blue Mosque). After watching me pray, a Sunni sheikh from Iraq approached me and started telling me how he loves me as a Muslim brother regardless of Sunni or Shia. Although my conversational Arabic is basic, we sat down and talked over some grapes I'd brought with me.

It turned out he was in a state of difficulty, so I helped him out with what I had. He asked about my own condition and on learning of certain problems, he wrote me a list of du'a to recite. Never for one minute did he imagine that our different interpretations of Islam would prevent him from being able to offer me his help and advice as a sheikh.

We parted happily, though reluctantly, and prayed that one day we'd meet again.

When honourable Sunni leaders like that are able to reclaim the narrative from divisive elements in the Muslim world, who are using their oil wealth to fund sectarianism, then insha'Allah the layers of ignorance will start to crumble.

Until then, as you say, there's much work that needs to be done to forge mutual respect and cooperation - in a word, unity. Alhamdulillah, the Arba'een march to Karbala grows larger and larger every year, and I see this as being symbolic of awakening consciousness.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 07, 2018, 03:07:01 PM
GreatChineseFall What you've just done is to repeat one of the most notorious slanders against the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws).

The Holy Prophet(saws) said that Imam Hassan(as) and Imam Hussein(as) are "Sayyid Al Shabaab Ahl al-Janna", the Masters of the Youths of Paradise; whereas you say that Iman Hassan(as) "married frequently and divorced frequently".

It's the word of the Holy Prophet(saws) against your word, and that means that your word is falsehood.

Please learn some respect and find a more constructive use for your energies.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hani on January 08, 2018, 12:40:11 AM
GreatChineseFall What you've just done is to repeat one of the most notorious slanders against the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws).

The Holy Prophet(saws) said that Imam Hassan(as) and Imam Hussein(as) are "Sayyid Al Shabaab Ahl al-Janna", the Masters of the Youths of Paradise; whereas you say that Iman Hassan(as) "married frequently and divorced frequently".

It's the word of the Holy Prophet(saws) against your word, and that means that your word is falsehood.

Please learn some respect and find a more constructive use for your energies.

That's funny logic, in the same sense the Prophet (saw) and `Ali greatly praised Abu Bakr and `Umar, so it's your word against theirs. Therefore your entire Madhab is falsehood.

Marrying and divorcing frequently is not a sin, based on my research it seems a lot of women were after wealth and reputation which caused al-Hasan so much trouble and he was assassinated by one of them in the end.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hani on January 08, 2018, 12:58:53 AM
Hani, your account of what you believe goes on in Iran and Iraq continues to betray the fact that you have little knowledge of these societies and have probably never visited them.
Evidently, you get your information from highly biased sources with little credibility.

By referring to nikkah mut'ah as "adultery", you are actually showing disrespect to the Holy Prophet(saws), since all Muslims agree that he instructed the sahaaba to perform mut'ah.
Rather than calmly and rationally discussing the subject at hand, you are using such strong language that you are saying things you don't mean; I suggest you reflect on your motivations and reconsider your approach.

Again you are asking for "evidence" of something whose validity isn't in question. It's an observable fact that mut'ah is used by couples to see if they're compatible for permanent nikah, so what point are you trying to make by questioning how frequently this was done in past ages?
Islam is suitable for all times and places and it offers us solutions to life as befits the circumstances we find ourselves in. Having a second, third or fourth wife was common in certain regions historically, whereas it's rare today; either way is valid under Shari'ah. Do you have an objection to this?

Regarding the issues faced by unmarried youth across the Muslim world, the scale of the current problem belies the notion that it can be solved in the manner you suggest.
Asking "lazy governments" to make "economic reforms" is admirable, but it's not a direct solution to the problem.

As an aside, if you don't mind me asking: how many Muslim countries have you travelled to? And what is your means of knowing the societies you discuss?

Tripoli, Beirut, Istanbul, Damascus, Manama, Doha, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Sharjah etc.. and I have tons of friends from Iran and relatives as well as friends in Iraq as well as a part of my family being Shia including my ex etc...

As for what you wrote above, it is erroneous, when temporary marriages were permitted they weren't adultery, they became adultery after they were forbidden.

Again tell the fetuses dropped in the back alleys of Tehran how great of a solution Mut`ah is to society.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 08, 2018, 01:26:07 AM
GreatChineseFall What you've just done is to repeat one of the most notorious slanders against the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws).

The Holy Prophet(saws) said that Imam Hassan(as) and Imam Hussein(as) are "Sayyid Al Shabaab Ahl al-Janna", the Masters of the Youths of Paradise; whereas you say that Iman Hassan(as) "married frequently and divorced frequently".

It's the word of the Holy Prophet(saws) against your word, and that means that your word is falsehood.

Please learn some respect and find a more constructive use for your energies.

Great way to avoid the main message of my post. I won't bother with this as any evidence from authentic Shi'i literature will be simply put aside, not to mention that your attempt at framing it as disrespectful, is disrespectful itself and dishonest at the same time.

Quote
If we feel secure in what we are following, we don't feel the need to slander others and bring them down; instead we reach out to pull them up.

A greater sign of insecurity is when people are dishonest about what they believe because they are too embarrassed to openly stand for their beliefs. Why is almost every Shia dishonest about mut'ah?

- What is the benefit of being able to stipulate something that you can revoke anytime you wish? That's like you saying "I promise I will not punch you in the face until I punch you in the face"

- Why is it allowed to engage in mut'ah with a Kitabi woman but a permanent marriage with them being forbidden? What is the purpose of knowing each other in this case?

- Why is it allowed for a man who is married with 4 women (ie the max number of permanent wives one can have) to engage in mut'ah. Who is he supposed to get to know?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on January 08, 2018, 05:54:26 AM
Again tell the fetuses dropped in the back alleys of Tehran how great of a solution Mut`ah is to society.
not just fetuses. Its nightmare for the women and children involved. The men can just say bye and go. For all the crazy things that Saddam did, banning mut'ah was one of his greatet act. This is old article about mut'ah in iraq post invasion

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130350678
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 08, 2018, 11:23:40 AM
Hani, our madhab is not based on denigrating Abu Bakr and 'Umar, so even if every hadith in favour of them were authentic, there would be no contradiction with our beliefs.

What we say about them is that they were not divinely appointed to lead the Ummah, and that they were not the most qualified individuals to take up the position of leadership after the Holy Prophet(saws).

Since Sunni scholarship doesn't necessarily disagree with either of these two points, I believe we find ourselves in consensus here.

"Tripoli, Beirut, Istanbul, Damascus, Manama, Doha, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Sharjah etc.." - That's quite an impressive list of destinations, more than I would have thought.

If you haven't made Hajj, I would advise you to do so, since death can come at any time. The Hajj experience is indescribable.

Travelling to Egypt is a must, not only because it's one of the largest Muslim countries, but also because it's a major centre of Muslim culture. I went to Cairo and Alexandria 15 years ago, and the energy is so infectious that I've been wanting to return ever since.

Also, I would strongly advise you to visit Karbala in Arba'een, which will be falling in October over the next few years. It's open to everyone regardless of belief.

There is a walk which takes place from Najaf to Karbala and over 30 million people participate, making it the largest annual gathering in the world. All along the route are mu'mineen providing free food and free accommodation.

You may experience more love, generosity and hospitality in a few days there than in all of your previous life combined.
All Muslims, and indeed all humanity, are welcome.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 08, 2018, 03:15:41 PM
GreatChineseFall, when a post contains disrespect for the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws), I'm no longer interested in anything else in that post other than defending his honour.

I'm also not motivated by argument for its own sake; I'm looking for progress and understanding. If I perceive no intention to move forward, then there's no response for me to offer.

In this post, you have asked a few interesting questions without any disrespect, so I'll respond according to my understanding:

- What is the benefit of being able to stipulate something that you can revoke anytime you wish? That's like you saying "I promise I will not punch you in the face until I punch you in the face"

- Why is it allowed to engage in mut'ah with a Kitabi woman but a permanent marriage with them being forbidden? What is the purpose of knowing each other in this case?

- Why is it allowed for a man who is married with 4 women (ie the max number of permanent wives one can have) to engage in mut'ah. Who is he supposed to get to know?


As to your first point, stipulating something as a common agreement is important regardless of the option to amend it later. It means the involved parties know exactly where they stand with one another, and it's a declaration of niyyah before Allah(swt).
Any part of the agreement to be amended would be done with mutual consent.

As to mut'ah with kitabi women, my understanding is that permanent marriage with them is possible but highly discouraged. It will usually be very problematic if Muslim children are brought up by Jewish or Christian mothers.
A temporary marriage serves the purpose of giving them time to learn about Islam and to embrace Islam before contracting permanent nikkah.

As to a man with 4 wives contracting mut'ah, this would be a highly unlikely scenario. It could be that his temporary wives need financial support and so, as is often the case with polygamy, the arrangement is more to their befit than to his.
He could also be away from home for many months or years and thus be contracting mut'ah to avoid the extremes of celibacy or sin.

Of course in all these cases, mut'ah could also be to fulfill sexual needs, which in itself is a legitimate aspect of mut'ah.
The whole attitude of portraying sexual needs as being inherently embarrassing and shameful is not derived from Islam, but instead reflects the Christian attitude.

Islam is very realistic about human nature and provides for our needs, rather than condemning them and closing us off.
The puritanical mentality which seeks to cast mut'ah in a bad light is the same mentality Western critics use when trying to undermine the Holy Prophet(saws) through his marriages, or when trying to undermine the Holy Qur'an through its descriptions of Jannah.

By turning away from the teachings of Ahl al Bayt(as) the Sunni world found itself with a gap in its social structure, and tried to fill that gap with misyar and 'urfi marriages.

Everything that's been (falsely) claimed about the overall social effects of mut'ah in Iranian and Iraqi society, could equally be claimed about misyar and 'urfi marriages in Morocco, Egypt, India and Pakistan.

Misuse of marriage can occur in misyar, 'urfi or mut'ah marriages just as it can occur in permanent nikkah. We don't derive our views on the validity of a teaching from those who misunderstand or misuse it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 08, 2018, 04:46:56 PM
As far as I know, urfi & misyar do not stipulate a fixed time like mutah. Hence not a valid analogy.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimK on January 08, 2018, 04:53:49 PM


Sorry for replying to off-topic comments.

Hani, our madhab is not based on denigrating Abu Bakr and 'Umar, so even if every hadith in favour of them were authentic, there would be no contradiction with our beliefs.

No comments!


Quote
What we say about them is that they were not divinely appointed to lead the Ummah, and that they were not the most qualified individuals to take up the position of leadership after the Holy Prophet(saws).

If that was the only thing your sect believed then there would be less tension, hatred and sectarianism. A Zaidi can make such a statement but definitely not a follower of a Twelver Imami sect - A sect in which great chunk of its literature is based mainly on slandering and character assassination of those pious Caliphs.

Ali Khamenei was not the most qualified person to take up the position of the supreme leadership of Iran.

Quote
Since Sunni scholarship doesn't necessarily disagree with either of these two points, I believe we find ourselves in consensus here.
You are wrong dear friend. Sunni scholarship believe Abubakr was the most superior of all companions, the most qualified and the most deserving of Caliphate. He also proved his qualities during his Caliphate and so did his successor.

Claiming consensus on something like this is laughable.

Quote

There is a walk which takes place from Najaf to Karbala and over 30 million people participate, making it the largest annual gathering in the world. All along the route are mu'mineen providing free food and free accommodation.

You may experience more love, generosity and hospitality in a few days there than in all of your previous life combined.
All Muslims, and indeed all humanity, are welcome.


"Over 30 Million" is a terrible lie:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/11/27/arbaeen-number-of-visitors/
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 08, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
Haha, these desperate Shias trying to make out like the pilgrimage to Karbala is superior than going for Umrah, or Haj.

[ERASED]


Mod Note: Please avoid jokes like that. 
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: simplemuslim on January 08, 2018, 11:35:24 PM

[ERASED]

Astagfrullah. I believe It's true now what people say about this website. It's got nasbies posing as sunnis. Comments like this prove it. I can't believe nobody has objected to this filthy comment.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on January 09, 2018, 12:09:02 AM
By turning away from the teachings of Ahl al Bayt(as) the Sunni world found itself with a gap in its social structure, and tried to fill that gap with misyar and 'urfi marriages.
not comparable. The sunni scholars who supported it are very few, unlike mut'ah which is consensus among shia scholars. Even the few sunni scholars who supported it dont consider it as  practise which is so virtuous like how shia scholars consider mut'ah. A person with a tiny spec of decency left in him/her will reject shia version of mut'ah for him/herself and for the people they love. That is why shia always in defensive and feel insulted when anyone ask them about it. That is a fact and no amount of dancing around will change it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 09, 2018, 12:34:04 AM
Haha, these desperate Shias trying to make out like the pilgrimage to Karbala is superior than going for Umrah, or Haj.

[ERASED]


Mod Note: Please avoid jokes like that.

I just don't know where on earth you get your information from😊 You don't have a clue about the Shia faith and community at large.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 09, 2018, 02:40:07 AM
GreatChineseFall What you've just done is to repeat one of the most notorious slanders against the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws).

The Holy Prophet(saws) said that Imam Hassan(as) and Imam Hussein(as) are "Sayyid Al Shabaab Ahl al-Janna", the Masters of the Youths of Paradise; whereas you say that Iman Hassan(as) "married frequently and divorced frequently".

It's the word of the Holy Prophet(saws) against your word, and that means that your word is falsehood.

Please learn some respect and find a more constructive use for your energies.
Lol, how is the word of brother against word of Prophet(saws) ? Can't Imam Hasan(ra) be Master of the youth of paradise if we married frequently and divorced frequently?  Who exactly made this criteria?

Here is SHia hadeeth for you.

 Kafi by Shaikh Kulaini (ra), Volume 6, Page 56, Section on divorcing the unsuitable woman

4 - حميد بن زياد عن الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة عن محمد بن زياد بن عيسى عن عبد الله بن سنان عن أبي عبد الله ع قال : إن عليا قال وهو على المنبر : لا تزوجوا الحسن فإنه رجل مطلاق فقام رجل من همدان فقال : بلى والله لنزوجنه وهو ابن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وابن أمير المؤمنين ع فإن شاء أمسك وإن شاء طلق

4- Humaid b. Ziad from al Hasan b. Muhammad b. Sama'a from Muhammad b. Ziad b. Isa from Abdullah b. Sinan from abi Abdullah (as) who said: Indeed Ali (as) said, while he was on the pulpit: "Do not arrange marriage with al Hasan, for indeed he is a man who constantly divorces." So a man from Hamdan stood up then said: "Rather, by Allah (swt) we will definitely arrange marriage with him, he is the son/progeny of the Prophet (pbuh) and the son of commander of the faithful, so if he wishes he may keep and if he wishes he may divorce."

مرآة العقول في شرح أخبار آل الرسول للمجلسي ج ٢١ ص: ٩٦ (الحديث الرابع) موثق

Miratul uqool by Majlisi, Volume 21, Page 96: Hadith 4: Muwaththaq (Reliable)

And here is the explanation by a Shia Scholar:
http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2013/07/reason-behind-imam-hasans-numerous.html
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 09, 2018, 03:04:21 AM
As for what you wrote above, it is erroneous, when temporary marriages were permitted they weren't adultery, they became adultery after they were forbidden.

Exactly! Its similar to accusing the children of Adam(as) of incest, even though in their time, the marriage of a brother with his sister was not considered Haram nor incest. It became haram and incest when the law came which prohibited such marriage. Same goes for Mutah.

Secondly, when we say that Mutah is Zina, then we are following Salaf and our Imam from Ahlulbayt. Do the Shia guys have a problem with Sunnis following Imam from Ahlelbayt? That is Imam Jafar as-sadiq(rah)

بو عبد الله الحافظ أنبأ أبو محمد الحسن بن سليمان الكوفى ببغداد ثنا محمد بن عبد الله الحضرمي ثنا (5) اسمعيل بن ابراهيم ثنا الاشجعى عن بسام الصيرفى قال سألت جعفر بن محمد عن المتعة فوصفتها (6) فقال لى ذلك الزنا
This is the wording present in Sunan Al-Kubra of Al-Bayhaqi (7/207) that Bassam As-Sairafi (Thiqah) asked Ja’far regarding mut’ah, so he said it is Zina(fornication).

عن جعفر بن محمد أنه سئل عن المتعة فقال: هي الزنا بعينه
Ja’far as calling mut’ah “pure fornication” (‘ayn al-zina).[Cited by Ibn Hajar, Fath (9:173) and al-Shawkani, Nayl al-Awtar (6:271)]


Similarly We read in Ismaili Shia book, “Da`a’im-ul-Islam” volume 2, pages 228 and 229 by al-Qadi al-Nu`man al-Maghribi:
 
 وعن جعفر بن محمد (ع) أن رجلا سأله عن نكاح المتعة قال: صفه لي، قال: يلقى الرجل المرأة، فيقول: أتزوجك بهذا الدرهم والدرهمين، وقعة أو يوما أو يومين. قال: هذا زنا، وما يفعل هذا إلا فاجر

[From Ja`far bin Muhammad (as) that a man asked him concerning the Mut`ah marriage, Ja`far said: “Describe it for me.” He said: “A man meets a woman and tells her: I marry you with one or two Dirhams for a period of one or two days.” Ja`far said: “That is fornication, no one does this except the wicked.”]

Also Ibn Umar in Musannaf Abdur-Razzaq (14035)
 هَذَا، وَمَا أَعْلَمُهُ إِلَّا السِّفَاحَ»
Ibn Umar said: ...And I do not think of it except as adultery.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on January 09, 2018, 03:45:38 AM
Lol, how is the word of brother against word of Prophet(saws) ? Can't Imam Hasan(ra) be Master of the youth of paradise if we married frequently and divorced frequently?  Who exactly made this criteria?

Here is SHia hadeeth for you.

 Kafi by Shaikh Kulaini (ra), Volume 6, Page 56, Section on divorcing the unsuitable woman

4 - حميد بن زياد عن الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة عن محمد بن زياد بن عيسى عن عبد الله بن سنان عن أبي عبد الله ع قال : إن عليا قال وهو على المنبر : لا تزوجوا الحسن فإنه رجل مطلاق فقام رجل من همدان فقال : بلى والله لنزوجنه وهو ابن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وابن أمير المؤمنين ع فإن شاء أمسك وإن شاء طلق

4- Humaid b. Ziad from al Hasan b. Muhammad b. Sama'a from Muhammad b. Ziad b. Isa from Abdullah b. Sinan from abi Abdullah (as) who said: Indeed Ali (as) said, while he was on the pulpit: "Do not arrange marriage with al Hasan, for indeed he is a man who constantly divorces." So a man from Hamdan stood up then said: "Rather, by Allah (swt) we will definitely arrange marriage with him, he is the son/progeny of the Prophet (pbuh) and the son of commander of the faithful, so if he wishes he may keep and if he wishes he may divorce."

مرآة العقول في شرح أخبار آل الرسول للمجلسي ج ٢١ ص: ٩٦ (الحديث الرابع) موثق

Miratul uqool by Majlisi, Volume 21, Page 96: Hadith 4: Muwaththaq (Reliable)

And here is the explanation by a Shia Scholar:
http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2013/07/reason-behind-imam-hasans-numerous.html

Very strange indeed! For a religion that advocate mut'ah so much, why didn't he i.e. Al-Hasan engage in mut'ah himself? If he would have done so, nobody would have accused him of divorcing that many. 😌

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 09, 2018, 02:29:59 PM
Astagfrullah. I believe It's true now what people say about this website. It's got nasbies posing as sunnis. Comments like this prove it. I can't believe nobody has objected to this filthy comment.

I also find it very unfortunate that none of the Sunni brothers here voiced objection to the obscene remark that was made.

Had it not been for the intervention by the moderator, which reflects well on his integrity, I would not have continued to participate.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 09, 2018, 03:09:53 PM
Myself & others have strongly objected to such comments that can be construed as offensive.
From my understanding such posters go too far in their condemnation of the shirk related practices carried out at these shrines like kerbala to such an exteme that they have no respect for the grandson of the holy prophet SAW.

Anyways back to the subject.

Your integrity is questionable ibrahim especially due to your dishonest propaganda that shia don’t slander the first 3 caliphs & that the only issue is they don’t deem them to be the most suited for leadership.

This alone exposes your agenda & academic seriousness.

Also there are many points raised by the brothers above, maybe you can respond to these.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 09, 2018, 03:29:56 PM
I just don't know where on earth you get your information from😊 You don't have a clue about the Shia faith and community at large.

Search the forum. There are quotes from your own scholars who're quoting narrations from your own books.

We don't make things up. We Ahlus Sunnah are on haq, and trail the path to Jannah. We have no reason to make up fairytales like your accursed sect does.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 09, 2018, 03:33:55 PM
Search the forum. There are quotes from your own scholars who're quoting narrations from your own books.

We don't make things up. We Ahlus Sunnah are on haq, and trail the path to Jannah. We have no reason to make up fairytales like your accursed sect does.
please keep the discussion civil brother. No need to use words like accursed sect. Please refrain from using such words in future posts .
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Optimus Prime on January 09, 2018, 03:40:23 PM
please keep the discussion civil brother. No need to use words like accursed sect. Please refrain from using such words in future posts .

I'm sorry, if I disturbed the flow of the discussion brother.

I won't comment further. In my view it's futile to engage in dialogue with people of this ilk.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 09, 2018, 04:21:38 PM
You are wrong dear friend. Sunni scholarship believe Abubakr was the most superior of all companions, the most qualified and the most deserving of Caliphate. He also proved his qualities during his Caliphate and so did his successor.

Claiming consensus on something like this is laughable.

You've misunderstood what I mean by "consensus". It's a way of saying that where there isn't necessarily a contradiction, there's no need to look for a dispute.

Forging good relations between Shia and Sunni means finding common ground. I discuss Shia-Sunni issues with the intention of dispelling misconceptions and promoting unity. Where common ground is available, it should be built upon.

To my knowledge, Sunni scholars have variously considered Imam Ali(as), Abu Bakr, 'Umar or even 'Uthman to each have held the highest position among the sahaaba, with no universal consensus on Abu Bakr.
If you have evidence of the unanimous opinion of Abu Bakr's pre-eminence, among all Sunni scholars past and present, then please make it available and we can discuss from there.

Otherwise, the point still stands; that Sunni scholarship itself is not necessarily in disagreement on the aforementioned reasons as to why Shia Muslims do not accept the legitimacy of the caliphates of Abu Bakr and 'Umar.

Many Sunni scholars in fact are of the opinion that the Holy Prophet(saws) didn't nominate any successor at all, that he didn't select Abu Bakr, 'Umar or anyone else. Why object to Shia claiming that Abu Bakr and 'Umar were not given authority to rule by Allah(swt) and His Messenger(saws), when that is essentially the same as the position many Sunni scholars hold?

I have responded so as not to neglect your point but I appreciate that, as you said, we are off topic here. Again, I'll reiterate that I'm trying to show why the Shia position is a reasonable one and that it isn't necessarily at odds with Sunni scholarship on a number of key issues.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 09, 2018, 05:39:58 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah, the ahadith you've quoted from Shia books do not prove your intended point, because Shia scholars do not consider the hadith books to be infallible.

The concept of calling hadith collections "Sahih" or "the most authentic book after the book of Allah" is a Sunni scholarly tradition, not a Shia one. Shia scholarship accepts that there may be inauthentic hadith in Kitab al Kafi or any other hadith book, and these inauthentic ahadith are assessed and rejected.

I will give you an example of this from the books of Ahl as-Sunnah in order to clarify:

There is a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah, one of the Sunni "Al Sihah Al Sittah", that a part of the Holy Qur'an was permanently lost due to a sheet it was written on being eaten by a goat (na'udhubillah).
Does this therefore mean that Sunni Muslims consider the Holy Qur'an to be incomplete? Not at all; rather it means that the hadith in question is rejected outright.

You question if marrying and divorcing frequently should be considered a slur against Imam Hassan's(as) honourable position. How can it not be?

Remember that this slanderous material alleges the number of these wives at anywhere between 70 and 300, and that they were married and divorced frivolously and according to whim. Apart from the logical and logistical impossibility of such allegations, they portray Imam Hassan's(as) character in an undignified way which is completely the opposite of his known personality.

Furthermore, Muslims agree that divorce is an act very much disliked by Allah(swt), the most hated act that He has made permissible. How can "Sayyid Al Shabaab Ahl al Jannah" be someone who performs hundreds of times over an act hated by Allah?

If you want to preserve your own integrity, I strongly suggest you stay away from spreading false rumours about the household of the Holy Prophet (saws).
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 09, 2018, 06:17:05 PM
A couple of the brothers here have objected to the comparison of Shia mut'ah marriage with Sunni misyar and 'Urfi marriage.

The items raised, such as no time period being stipulated, and different opinions among Sunni scholars regarding their legality, do not detract from the point being made.

If you criticise mut'ah for perceived sexual licence, when you have misyar and 'urfi being used across the Sunni world for exactly the same reason, you're effectively criticising Islam as a whole.

Look at the bigger picture: those who stand to gain the most if Sunnis denigrate mut'ah and Shia denigrate 'urfi and misyar, are the opponents of Islam who wish to see Islam as a whole in disarray. They don't care about Shia or Sunni.

Isn't it better to accept that some people, who are in a situation you yourself may never have been in, have a legitimate need for something which all Muslims agree was legitimised by the Holy Prophet(saws) and practiced by the sahaaba?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 09, 2018, 06:23:35 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah, the ahadith you've quoted from Shia books do not prove your intended point, because Shia scholars do not consider the hadith books to be infallible.
It does, because I quoted the grading of the hadeeth by Majlisi for that hadeeth, who considered it reliable. Hence I would be leaving the argument you made based on your ignorance. Since it was a waste of time.

And secondly Akhbari Shia scholars such as hurr amili, etc consider hadees in al-kafi as authentic. Hence by your ignorance based argument they all went against the word of Prophet(saws) that Imam Hassan(ra) is sayyid shabab ahl al Jannah.


You question if marrying and divorcing frequently should be considered a slur against Imam Hassan's(as) honourable position. How can it not be?
So based on your ignoramous argument Shia scholars who considered that hadeeth reliable insulted Imam Hassan(ra). Great!


Furthermore, Muslims agree that divorce is an act very much disliked by Allah(swt), the most hated act that He has made permissible. How can "Sayyid Al Shabaab Ahl al Jannah" be someone who performs hundreds of times over an act hated by Allah?
Divorce is disliked when it is done without a genuine reason. Why are you so pessimist in regards to Hassan(ra) that you think it is to be considered without a genuine reason? Why can't you be optimistic like Shia scholar Yusuf Bahraini who explained this incident in positive manner, justifying the act of Hassan(ra).

And for us Sunnis, Imam Hassan(ra) will still be sayyid shabaan ahl al jannah even if married and divorced several women.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 09, 2018, 06:30:25 PM
Some points:

1) shia always use kop outs to get of situations by saying the narration was taqiyya or its rejected because erm well you don’t like it & hence you’ve decided its not authentic on that basis

2) please show me where any sunni narrations regarding a sheet containing verses of the quran mean them verses were lost forever?

3) in regards to mutah then rather than slate it, i’m more curious as to why shia insist it was umar who banned it when the overwhelming evidence shows that Ali ibn Abu Talib, Zayd ibn Ali ibn Husayn, Mohammed ibn Ali & Jafar ibn Mohammed all agreed it was banned.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 09, 2018, 06:55:02 PM
Myself & others have strongly objected to such comments that can be construed as offensive.
From my understanding such posters go too far in their condemnation of the shirk related practices carried out at these shrines like kerbala to such an exteme that they have no respect for the grandson of the holy prophet SAW.

Anyways back to the subject.

Your integrity is questionable ibrahim especially due to your dishonest propaganda that shia don’t slander the first 3 caliphs & that the only issue is they don’t deem them to be the most suited for leadership.

This alone exposes your agenda & academic seriousness.

Also there are many points raised by the brothers above, maybe you can respond to these.

I'm reassured to hear of your objection to the earlier comment.

Again, we're off topic but I'll briefly address some points you raised.

Regarding Shia slander the first 3 Sunni Caliphs, this is unacceptable when it occurs and is widely denounced by Shia scholars.

Actually in my experience most Shia Muslims very rarely talk about Abu Bakr, 'Umar or 'Uthman at all, and when the scholars mention them to discuss the issues surrounding them, they simply outline the points of dispute without any slander or disrespect.

As for my "agenda" - yes I do have an agenda: it's to see the Muslim Ummah in a state of revival and amelioration, and this won't happen by promoting sectarianism and internal division.

Regarding "shirk" in the shrines in Karbala, when I was there I didn't see any shirk. I saw people showing love and respect for Imam Hussein(as) and the martyrs of Ashura, and then turning to the qibla and praying to Allah(swt) when the prayer time came.

If you think there might be shirk taking place, why not go to Karbala, or to Mashhad, and check for yourself?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on January 10, 2018, 04:44:47 AM
I
Regarding Shia slander the first 3 Sunni Caliphs, this is unacceptable when it occurs and is widely denounced by Shia scholars.

What about Ziyrat al Ashraa where Lana is sent on the first, second and third? Also, isn't tabarra and tawalla a pillar in your sect? As for slander, don't majority of the dozeners believe Umar killed Fatima?

Quote
Actually in my experience most Shia Muslims very rarely talk about Abu Bakr, 'Umar or 'Uthman at all, and when the scholars mention them to discuss the issues surrounding them, they simply outline the points of dispute without any slander or disrespect.


This is a very similar reply the Jews gave when asked about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). One  Jew in the end was about to say something, but his wife told him to do taqiyyah.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on January 10, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
A couple of the brothers here have objected to the comparison of Shia mut'ah marriage with Sunni misyar and 'Urfi marriage.

The items raised, such as no time period being stipulated, and different opinions among Sunni scholars regarding their legality, do not detract from the point being made.
I can almost say sunni scholars are in consensus when it comes to rejecting opinion for marriage with the intention of divorce. Those who do are a very tiny minority whose opinion are even rejected by their own peers. Youre trying to portray as if those are like shia mut'ah which there is not a single shia scholar ever objected to plus it is considered as one of the most virtuous act of worship. How desperate are you to compare that with mutah.

If you criticise mut'ah for perceived sexual licence, when you have misyar and 'urfi being used across the Sunni world for exactly the same reason, you're effectively criticising Islam as a whole.
Across the sunni world? 😂😂 Lets say for argument sake it is which isnt true, it surely is way more strict than anytime, anywhere, any reason shia mutah which is a license for freesex even a 1 night stand.

Look at the bigger picture: those who stand to gain the most if Sunnis denigrate mut'ah and Shia denigrate 'urfi and misyar, are the opponents of Islam who wish to see Islam as a whole in disarray. They don't care about Shia or Sunni.
Opponents of islam are those who are not muslim as well as those who said they are muslim and yet have always denigrating the best of generation, the companions. You know well, who they are.

Isn't it better to accept that some people, who are in a situation you yourself may never have been in, have a legitimate need for something which all Muslims agree was legitimised by the Holy Prophet(saws) and practiced by the sahaaba?
Nope, mutah has been made haram. Even when it was still halal, it is not comparable with shia version of mutah.

PS: everyone else, pls stay on topic. Shia are trying to derail so many times
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 10, 2018, 04:27:01 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah, your response does nothing to undermine what I've already outlined, a principle common to Shia and Sunni alike:

Our beliefs, whether general 'aqeeda or opinions on other issues, are not determined by isolated or weak ahadith which are at odds with scholarly consensus.

I gave you a direct example from Sunni narrations to exemplify this. The presence of a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah, where a portion of the Holy Qur'an was lost due to being eaten by a goat (na'udhubillah), does not mean Sunni Muslims have to accept that the Holy Qur'an is incomplete. Instead, the hadith itself is rejected.

Likewise, citing a hadith (which is muwathaq, not sahih or hasan) in Mirat ul Uqool proves nothing against the Shia view of Imam Hassan(as), especially since Allama Majlisi's primary aim was to collect available hadith rather than to authenticate them.


Why do you continue on in this futile quest to undermine the integrity of the Holy Prophet's(saws) household? Need I remind you what the Holy Qur'an says about backbiting:

يَا أيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اجْتَنِبُوا كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الظَّنِّ إِنَّ بَعْضَ الظَّنِّ إِثْمٌ وَلَآ تَجَسَّسُوا وَلَآ يَغْتَب بَّعْضُكُم بَعْضًا أيُحِبُّ أحَدُكُمْ أن يَأكُلَ لَحْمَ أخِيهِ مَيْتًا فَكَرِهْتُمُوهُ وَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ تَوَّابٌ رَّحِيمٌ

O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion. Indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not [on others], neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? By no means, [since] you would hate it. And fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is the One Who forgives and accepts repentance, Most Merciful. (Holy Qur'an 49:12).

Which one of the false accounts do you personally believe in? The 70 divorced wives version? The 250 wives version? The 300 divorced wives version? Which one of these logistically impossible and obviously invented slanders sounds right to you?

In the time it took you to comment, you could have done a hundred other useful things with your time. Why not find a more constructive activity than casting aspersions on the character of Imam Hassan(as)?
The one who, when he would climb on the Holy Prophet's(saws) back while he was in sajda, the Holy Prophet(saws) would wait for him to finish before rising.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 10, 2018, 04:52:05 PM
What about Ziyrat al Ashraa where Lana is sent on the first, second and third? Also, isn't tabarra and tawalla a pillar in your sect? As for slander, don't majority of the dozeners believe Umar killed Fatima?

In Ziarat Ashura, la'ana is made on the first, second, third and fourth tyrants, who are anonymous, then on Yazid Ibn Mu'awiyah and the perpetrators of the massacre of Karbala.

The principles of Tawalla and Tabarra aren't relevant here and neither is your allusion to taqiyyah.
Unless you have a problem with la'ana being made on the perpetrators of the tragedy of Karbala, I don't see any grounds for objection.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimK on January 10, 2018, 04:53:55 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah, your response does nothing to undermine what I've already outlined, a principle common to Shia and Sunni alike:

Our beliefs, whether general 'aqeeda or opinions on other issues, are not determined by isolated or weak ahadith which are at odds with scholarly consensus.

What is your scholarly consesus about the marriages of Hasan?

Your rejection of this fact about the marriages of Hassan (ra) is not academic but emotional.


Quote
I gave you a direct example from Sunni narrations to exemplify this. The presence of a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah, where a portion of the Holy Qur'an was lost due to being eaten by a goat (na'udhubillah), does not mean Sunni Muslims have to accept that the Holy Qur'an is incomplete. Instead, the hadith itself is rejected.

Just to clarify. The report is weak thus not an evidence. The verses were abrogated verses so it doesn't matter who ate it. Quran was memorised by hundreds of companions so even if it was non-abrogated verse then it still wouldn't be a problem. You should study the history of Quranic compilation.

Quote
especially since Allama Majlisi's primary aim was to collect available hadith rather than to authenticate them.

Are you sure? From where did you get this claim? Miratul Uqool is a book in which Majlisi grades all Hadiths of al-Kafi.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 10, 2018, 05:30:09 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah, your response does nothing to undermine what I've already outlined, a principle common to Shia and Sunni alike:
My response has actually exposed your ignorance. Readers have witnessed this fact. It isn't necessary that you admit that your ignorance was exposed.


Our beliefs, whether general 'aqeeda or opinions on other issues, are not determined by isolated or weak ahadith which are at odds with scholarly consensus.
Your comment again exposed your ignorance. The hadeeth I quoted is not weak rather it is muawthaq, which means reliable.  As for it being isolated then let me quote what Shia scholar Yusuf Bahrani said.

Shia scholar Yusuf Bahrani said:

بقي هنا إشكال وهو أنه قد تكاثرت الأخبار بأن الحسن (عليه السلام) كان رجلا مطلاقا للنساء حتى عطب به أبوه علي (عليه السلام) على ظهر المنبر
The problem that remains is that ahadith have been reported in extremely vast numbers that Imam al Hasan (as) was a man who used to frequently divorce women, to the point that even his own father Imam Ali (as) blasted him for this publicly from the top of the pulpit. [Hadaiq al Nadra by Shaikh Yusuf al Bahrani, Volume 25 Page 148]


I gave you a direct example from Sunni narrations to exemplify this. The presence of a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah, where a portion of the Holy Qur'an was lost due to being eaten by a goat (na'udhubillah), does not mean Sunni Muslims have to accept that the Holy Qur'an is incomplete. Instead, the hadith itself is rejected.

Likewise, citing a hadith (which is muwathaq, not sahih or hasan) in Mirat ul Uqool proves nothing against the Shia view of Imam Hassan(as),
You are comparing apples with oranges. The hadeeth of Ibn Majah even if considered reliable is still explained as mentioning those verses whose recitation was abrogated. Hence it's not part of Quran. So we have no problem with it.

Where as the hadeeth about Marriages of hasan(ra) has been accepted by Shia scholars like, Majlisi , Yusuf bahrani, etc. hence according to your ignorance they insulted Hasan(ra).


especially since Allama Majlisi's primary aim was to collect available hadith rather than to authenticate them.

Again displaying your ignorance(jahalah). majlisi wrote his book to evaluate the hadeeths in al-kafi.

Mir'aat Al-`Uqool by Al-Majlisi is a book where Al-Majlisi grades EVERY single hadeeth in Al-Kaafi. So it includes all the SaHeeH, Muwaththaq, Hasan, and Da`eef hadeeth.


Why do you continue on in this futile quest to undermine the integrity of the Holy Prophet's(saws) household?
I ask you again. Did baqir majlisi or hurr amili or Yusuf bahrani, and all those akhbari scholars who accepted this hadeeth as reliable. did they undermine the integrity of Prophet's(saws) household ?

If they did then do you reject their scholarship?


Which one of the false accounts do you personally believe in? The 70 divorced wives version? The 250 wives version? The 300 divorced wives version? Which one of these logistically impossible and obviously invented slanders sounds right to you?
The number of his divorces may not be certain but what is proven from reliable(muwathaq) Shia hadeeth is that he married and divorced many women to such an extent that Ali(ra) rebuked him publicly. This is as per Shia hadeeth and explained by Shia scholar Yusuf bahrani .
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 10, 2018, 05:32:38 PM
I can almost say sunni scholars are in consensus when it comes to rejecting opinion for marriage with the intention of divorce. Those who do are a very tiny minority whose opinion are even rejected by their own peers. Youre trying to portray as if those are like shia mut'ah which there is not a single shia scholar ever objected to plus it is considered as one of the most virtuous act of worship. How desperate are you to compare that with mutah.
Across the sunni world? 😂😂 Lets say for argument sake it is which isnt true, it surely is way more strict than anytime, anywhere, any reason shia mutah which is a license for freesex even a 1 night stand.
Opponents of islam are those who are not muslim as well as those who said they are muslim and yet have always denigrating the best of generation, the companions. You know well, who they are.
Nope, mutah has been made haram. Even when it was still halal, it is not comparable with shia version of mutah.

PS: everyone else, pls stay on topic. Shia are trying to derail so many times


You're evidently unaware of the social realities of the Muslim world and you're commenting about things you don't really know about.

Here's one article alone which contradicts everything you just said about misyar:

http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/642991

And I can bring a hundred more articles like this if necessary.

To reiterate: I'm not trying to scandalise Sunnis for misyar and 'urfi; I realise that it's an inevitable response to a social need. Likewise, Sunnis should stop the immature and irresponsible attempts to scandalise Shia for mut'ah.

It just ends up making all Muslims look bad if we do that.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 10, 2018, 05:39:14 PM

You're evidently unaware of the social realities of the Muslim world and you're commenting about things you don't really know about.

Here's one article alone which contradicts everything you just said about misyar:

http://www.arabnews.com/saudi-arabia/news/642991

And I can bring a hundred more articles like this if necessary.

The brother mentioned about marriage with intention of divorce. You brought the article of Misyar. Misyar is not marriage with intention of Divorce. So this again displays your ignorance.

Misyar is a marriage where a women drops her right over her husband. Such as financial responsibility of husband. If a women who has money but is finding difficult to marry a person who is poor and can't afford her expenses, then she can opt to drop her right by lifting her responsibility from the person whom she want to marry. It's quite simple.

It's better that you discuss these things when you gain some basic knowledge and maturity.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 10, 2018, 06:09:43 PM
A couple of the brothers here have objected to the comparison of Shia mut'ah marriage with Sunni misyar and 'Urfi marriage.

The items raised, such as no time period being stipulated, and different opinions among Sunni scholars regarding their legality, do not detract from the point being made.

If you criticise mut'ah for perceived sexual licence, when you have misyar and 'urfi being used across the Sunni world for exactly the same reason, you're effectively criticising Islam as a whole.
Islam is what Allah revealed and what Prophet(saws) preached.

For Sunnis Misyar or urfi is from the opinions of some scholars. Whose view can be rejected. Criticizing these would mean criticizing the opinions of those scholars NOT Islam.

For Shias Mutah was preached by their infallible Imams. Hence this is where it becomes problematic. You can't criticize it. And criticizing it would mean criticizing Islam in Shia perspective.

So both are not comparable . And it's unfair to compare them.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 10, 2018, 07:26:13 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah If you can't respond without rudeness, it's better not to respond at all.

Shouting "ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" over and over says nothing about me and only serves to lower the tone of debate.

Our shortcomings as individuals are known best to Allah(swt) and are not relevant to the points under discussion here.

Your response does not introduce anything new on previous responses and maintains the same erroneous methodology which isn't acceptable in any school of though in Islam.

The consensus of Shia scholars on the slanderous nature of the allegations against Imam Hassan(as) is undeniable, and citing peripheral hadith or decontextualised quotations from individual scholars holds no weigh against this.
No matter how many times you repeat such kinds of arguments, they will not become valid.


The number of his divorces may not be certain but what is proven from reliable(muwathaq) Shia hadeeth is that...

Except that muwathaq ahadith don't "prove" anything - that's the whole point. Even sahih graded ahadith don't necessarily prove anything in and of themselves.

Your attempts to cast aspersions on the character of Imam Hassan(as) are not going to be successful; please read the Holy Qur'an surah 49:12 and take some time to reflect on what you're doing to yourself when you forward these accusations.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 10, 2018, 07:41:34 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah If you can't respond without rudeness, it's better not to respond at all.

Shouting "ignorant, ignorant, ignorant" over and over says nothing about me and only serves to lower the tone of debate.

Our shortcomings as individuals are known best to Allah(swt) and are not relevant to the points under discussion here.

Your response does not introduce anything new on previous responses and maintains the same erroneous methodology which isn't acceptable in any school of though in Islam.

The consensus of Shia scholars on the slanderous nature of the allegations against Imam Hassan(as) is undeniable, and citing peripheral hadith or decontextualised quotations from individual scholars holds no weigh against this.
No matter how many times you repeat such kinds of arguments, they will not become valid.


Except that muwathaq ahadith don't "prove" anything - that's the whole point. Even sahih graded ahadith don't necessarily prove anything in and of themselves.

Your attempts to cast aspersions on the character of Imam Hassan(as) are not going to be successful; please read the Holy Qur'an surah 49:12 and take some time to reflect on what you're doing to yourself when you forward these accusations.

I have proven all my points in an academic manner, aling with quotations from Shia books. I have shown you that Shia scholars accepted that hadeeth, explained it as well.  If you want to blame anyone, then blame those Shia scholars who explained it and graded it as reliable. And your rejection is based on emotions and ignorance.

And btw calling an ignorant person ignorant on his face is not wrong. Especially when his ignorance is being proven. He is reminded that he is ignorant because he starts educating himself.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 10, 2018, 07:44:52 PM
Islam is what Allah revealed and what Prophet(saws) preached.

For Sunnis Misyar or urfi is from the opinions of some scholars. Whose view can be rejected. Criticizing these would mean criticizing the opinions of those scholars NOT Islam.

For Shias Mutah was preached by their infallible Imams. Hence this is where it becomes problematic. You can't criticize it. And criticizing it would mean criticizing Islam in Shia perspective.

So both are not comparable . And it's unfair to compare them.

Perhaps you'd like to "criticize" the former Grand Mufti of Egypt...

https://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/04/21/71115.html
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 10, 2018, 07:48:18 PM
I have proven all my points in an academic manner...

You have proven nothing at all, my friend.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 10, 2018, 07:55:47 PM
Ibrahim you should of just quit when you spoke on majlisi & got exposed.

Your taqiyya on what shia think about the first 3 caliphs & your attempts at being articulate & warming/friendly are fooling nobody.

Whenever you are exposed on an argument or point you conveniently leave the issue out in your replies.

Selectively replying when it suits you.

You’re embarrassing yourself & your fellow shias.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 10, 2018, 08:11:33 PM
You have proven nothing at all, my friend.
People blessed with wisdom will judge it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 10, 2018, 08:14:02 PM
Perhaps you'd like to "criticize" the former Grand Mufti of Egypt...

https://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/04/21/71115.html

He was wrong in his opinion. We reject his fatwa. This doesn't mean critizing Islam. As simple as that.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 10, 2018, 09:25:06 PM
Your attempts to cast aspersions on the character of Imam Hassan(as) are not going to be successful; please read the Holy Qur'an surah 49:12 and take some time to reflect on what you're doing to yourself when you forward these accusations.

And your attempt to shut down the discussion by appealing to emotions shows why Shi'as are always on the losing end of debates.  No one will find this attempt at emotional blackmail all that convincing because we find your views on Sahaba رضي الله عنهم the Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام and the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم as far worse than saying someone married and divorced a lot.  I can think highly of Imam Hassan عليه السلام even if married and divorced a lot, but I can not think highly of Imam Ali عليه السلام for allowing Omar رضي الله عنه to attack his wife, the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's daughter, cause her to have a miscarriage and eventually lead to her death and the only thing he can do to respond is curse them, but only under the guise of taqiyyah.  I can not think highly of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم who teaches that doing Mut'ah for times will put me on the same station as him.

So please, stop this appeal to emotion; we are just as offended by your portrayal of the Ahl al-Bayt as you are of ours.  However, appealing to emotion and acting like this is somehow slander is a criticism that can be just as equally leveled at al-Majlisi.  You don't have to agree with his conclusion, but at the very least have the academic honesty to admit that he also claims that Imam al-Hassan عليه السلام married and divorced a lot, move on, and get back to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on January 10, 2018, 11:26:53 PM
He was wrong in his opinion. We reject his fatwa. This doesn't mean critizing Islam. As simple as that.

Shia is so desperate as usual, trying to compare filthy mutah with anything they can find.

That type of marriage is rejected by almost consensus of sunni scholars. Him being a former mufti wont make it more credible. Like i said, no matter how wrong and odd the pro misyar opinion is, it is not comparable to anytime anywhere any condition shia mutah which is basically a freesex for all license and is accepted by ALL shia scholars.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 11, 2018, 12:20:37 AM
Quote
GreatChineseFall, when a post contains disrespect for the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws), I'm no longer interested in anything else in that post other than defending his honor.

What is disrespectful to the grandson of the Holy Prophet(saws) is denying the truth regarding him. What makes it worse is doing this under the guise of protecting his honor.

Quote
As to your first point, stipulating something as a common agreement is important regardless of the option to amend it later. It means the involved parties know exactly where they stand with one another, and it's a declaration of niyyah before Allah(swt).
Any part of the agreement to be amended would be done with mutual consent.

It is as important as you promising me that you will not punch me in the face until you want to. It's nice to know but not very reassuring.

Quote
As to mut'ah with kitabi women, my understanding is that permanent marriage with them is possible but highly discouraged.
I don't think that's true, prove it. Rather, even mut'ah is forbidden to be done with them if you are in a permanent marriage with a Muslim.

Quote
It will usually be very problematic if Muslim children are brought up by Jewish or Christian mothers.
A temporary marriage serves the purpose of giving them time to learn about Islam and to embrace Islam before contracting permanent nikkah.
So mut'ah is used as a da'wah practice? Why is it forbidden for married men then? Or are only unmarried men suitable for this da'wah? Please, is it forbidden then to have children with them for as long as they are not converted? Or are you going to anticipate a conversion and produce children beforehand anyway?

Quote
As to a man with 4 wives contracting mut'ah, this would be a highly unlikely scenario. It could be that his temporary wives need financial support and so, as is often the case with polygamy, the arrangement is more to their befit than to his.
How generous of these guys to help these poor women out and how inconvenient for them that Allah has restricted a man to marry four women only. Can't he just help them out financially without a marriage or can't he guide them to other righteous and financially responsible men? Or is he the only suitable person around? In what world would this ever be the only practical solution to that problem?

Quote
He could also be away from home for many months or years and thus be contracting mut'ah to avoid the extremes of celibacy or sin.
What a poor guy. Is it then forbidden to have more than one temporary wife or at best four at the same time in the same town or area? Or at the very least disliked or discouraged? It is just to fight off celibacy and sin, right? Or is it unrestricted how many wives you have anywhere at any time?

Quote
Of course in all these cases, mut'ah could also be to fulfill sexual needs, which in itself is a legitimate aspect of mut'ah.
The whole attitude of portraying sexual needs as being inherently embarrassing and shameful is not derived from Islam, but instead reflects the Christian attitude.
Finally, there it is, a partial admission after several posts. We are not there yet however, why don't you admit it fully while you are at it? To fulfill sexual needs doesn't just have to be an aspect of mut'ah, it can be the main purpose of it, can't it? So all those examples you just mentioned are just convenient examples. You have no problem with a man who lives with his four wives, and he isn't some place remote, and his wives aren't pregnant or unavailable or something, and his future mut'ah wife isn't financially in very difficult times or a widow, he simply doesn't have an "appetite" for his permanent wives, to just go and contract a mut'ah marriage with some woman or even multiple women for a few hours. You don't have a problem with this, as it's not only permissible, rather it is recommended and he is seen as someone who has done a virtuous act of worship. There lies the main difference with any other type of marriage.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 11, 2018, 12:27:08 AM
There is a walk which takes place from Najaf to Karbala and over 30 million people participate, making it the largest annual gathering in the world.

Over 30 million? Impressive. Hani, it seems you've got yourself another record.

30 million? The entire city of Karbala is 44 km2, meaning each person would have less than 1.5 m2. If they all did sujood together they would burst out of the city to about twice its size.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 11, 2018, 01:08:00 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
Reading all the comments, and how the traditions I shared were ignored, it is safe to say that this discussion has been stretched too far. 

May Allah (swt) unite us all on the true Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Hadrami on January 11, 2018, 04:30:34 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
Reading all the comments, and how the traditions I shared were ignored, it is safe to say that this discussion has been stretched too far. 

May Allah (swt) unite us all on the true Sunnah of the Prophet (saw).
wa alaykumsalam warahmatullah, how can shia reply? You gave them their own ahadith where imam encouraged mutah without any condition. The only best reply understandably just diversion attempt. Let the ummah unite, but not with people who hate and denigrate mother of believers and the companions.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 11, 2018, 04:47:41 AM
wa alaykumsalam warahmatullah, how can shia reply? You gave them their own ahadith where imam encouraged mutah without any condition. The only best reply understandably just diversion attempt. Let the ummah unite, but not with people who hate and denigrate mother of believers and the companions.

The Shias have given plenty of response but there is no response to your agenda based on your mindset and propaganda. That is your illness and fever and you only have the cure to that. There's nothing we can do about it and it's not our problem.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Rationalist on January 11, 2018, 05:35:13 AM
In Ziarat Ashura, la'ana is made on the first, second, third and fourth tyrants, who are anonymous, then on Yazid Ibn Mu'awiyah and the perpetrators of the massacre of Karbala.
The strange part is even Muawiyah is censored in this. Isn't Muawiyah supposed to be worst than Yazid? It shows how you guys put yourself in a trap when you do taqiyyah.
 
Quote
The principles of Tawalla and Tabarra aren't relevant here and neither is your allusion to taqiyyah.
Unless you have a problem with la'ana being made on the perpetrators of the tragedy of Karbala, I don't see any grounds for objection.
It is strange because Muawiyah was Imam Ali's enemy, and by saying its about Karbala shows that Imam Hussain (as) had a bigger challenge than Imam Ali (as). Yes I do have a problem with taqiyyah based narrations such as this.
Quote
neither is your allusion to taqiyyah.
Why is the first, second, third and fourth censored? This is not an allusion, its your principal of taqiyyah which your self falsely attributed to the Imams.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 11, 2018, 12:25:11 PM
And your attempt to shut down the discussion by appealing to emotions shows why Shi'as are always on the losing end of debates.  No one will find this attempt at emotional blackmail all that convincing...

An astonishing comment, though one which I'm glad you made.

Let's take a moment to pause and reflect a little. The logo of this site is "Refuting Shia Allegations Online Everywhere!". The brothers gathered here have described themselves as Sunni, though it's clear that many of them might be better described as Salafi.
The overall tone is a negative and often hateful insistence on anti-Shia sectarianism - which is the last thing the Muslim world needs at the moment after the wars and political upheavals of recent years.

Yet you, as a participant in this, think you are sufficiently objective as to be able to fairly judge the outcome of Shia-Sunni dialogue?
Where is your self-awareness and introspection, brother? What you're participating in here is as partisan an environment as it's possible to get. What makes you think you're an exception to this whereby your judgement is just?

Where is your self-awareness?

Over the last few days it's been roughly 10 vs 1, in attempts to use isolated and secondary evidence to allege that Iman Hassan(as) divorced 70-300 women (astaghfirullah), and to evade the obvious similarities between misyar and mut'ah.

A dignified mentality should lead us to feel embarrassed at contests of even 2 vs 1. Yet despite it being 10 vs 1, you evidently felt that your group's efforts have been insufficient enough as to require your help and intervention.
Actions speak louder than words, my friend.

Now I'll repeat again what I think is crucially important: I don't believe in "us vs them" sectarian mentalities. I care about Muslim unity and brotherhood.

Numerous times I've spoken of this, only for my words to be met with deafening silence - except a couple of recent posts.

I'm appealing not so much to emotion as to conscience. What do you feel as a Muslim when you go to the myriad sites and comments sections all over the internet where hundreds of people are gathered for the sole purpose of spewing hatred against Islam?
So then, why do the same here against the Shia?

So yes, let's have a reasoned and civil discussion about temporary marriage, insofar as it's possible in an environment like this.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 11, 2018, 02:04:41 PM
To all the brothers and sisters here (I'm sure there are sisters viewing if not commenting):

I realise that many of you will be surprised by the information I've brought on misyar and 'urfi marriage.

Many of you will not have known that such things existed at all, and others will not have realised their level of acceptance and practice in Sunni Muslim societies.
The state of receiving new information which contrasts with what you believed before is called "cognitive dissonance".

Cognitive dissonance is difficult to process, but I will clarify that I'm not presenting this information as a form of criticism against Sunni Muslims.

The point is that misyar and 'urfi have, to all intents and purposes, identical social functions to mut'ah. This means that to criticise the Shia practice is to criticise the Sunni practice, and thus all Muslims.

Isn't it better that, rather than being quick to condemn, we make efforts to understand why mut'ah, misyar and 'urfi prevail in our societies and why they are approved of by our 'ulama?

Thank you for listening.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 11, 2018, 02:59:34 PM

Let's take a moment to pause and reflect a little. The logo of this site is "Refuting Shia Allegations Online Everywhere!". The brothers gathered here have described themselves as Sunni, though it's clear that many of them might be better described as Salafi.
Please educate yourself properly before commenting. Sunni is a general title. It encompasses Asharis as well as Salafis. Both Asharis and Salafis can call themselves Sunnis.


Over the last few days it's been roughly 10 vs 1, in attempts to use isolated and secondary evidence to allege that Iman Hassan(as) divorced 70-300 women (astaghfirullah), and to evade the obvious similarities between misyar and mut'ah.
What a shameless liar this guy is. Who Talked about the number of women Hasan(ra) divorced? It was you kept bringing the number. Where as the brother who raised this issue, merely mentioned what the RELIABLE SHIA HADEETH states, that Hasan(ra) frequently married and divorced. This is a PRIMARY EVIDENCE not secondary.

al Hasan ibn Ali married frequently and divorced frequently. Not one of those marriages were temporary.

And what the brother said, is proven from reliable Shia hadeeth. Accepted by famous Shia scholars such as Majlisi, Yusuf bahrani, and all those akhbari Shia scholars.

It's a pity that even after getting exposed as an ignorant person who doesn't even know majlisi wrote his book to grade hadeeth of al kafi not just merely gathering them as you claimed. You have the audacity to make more false claims. Have some shame.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 11, 2018, 03:07:24 PM
A charlatan who relies on emotional rather than academic reasoning, whose taqiya is so blatant.

Then there is iceman who just continues to play dumb when he can’t answer anything.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 11, 2018, 03:08:43 PM
To all the brothers and sisters here (I'm sure there are sisters viewing if not commenting):

I realise that many of you will be surprised by the information I've brought on misyar and 'urfi marriage.

Many of you will not have known that such things existed at all, and others will not have realised their level of acceptance and practice in Sunni Muslim societies.
The state of receiving new information which contrasts with what you believed before is called "cognitive dissonance".

Cognitive dissonance is difficult to process, but I will clarify that I'm not presenting this information as a form of criticism against Sunni Muslims.

The point is that misyar and 'urfi have, to all intents and purposes, identical social functions to mut'ah. This means that to criticise the Shia practice is to criticise the Sunni practice, and thus all Muslims.

Isn't it better that, rather than being quick to condemn, we make efforts to understand why mut'ah, misyar and 'urfi prevail in our societies and why they are approved of by our 'ulama?

Thank you for listening.

We want to protect our sisters be it Shia or Sunni. From the unislamic marriages being endorsed under the name of Islam, be it Mutah or the marriage with the intention of divorce. We want to do this through educating them.

And no manner what you say, we will do our best to  protect our Shia sisters or Sunni sisters. No matter how much you feel bad, we will not stop in educating the sisters in an academic manner using Quran and hadeeth of Prophet(saws) about the prohibition of Mutah or any marriage which resembles it. Even if it came from Fatwa of Sunni scholars we won't hesitate in pointing out their mistake.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 11, 2018, 06:14:54 PM
Quote
I don't think that's true, prove it. Rather, even mut'ah is forbidden to be done with them if you are in a permanent marriage with a Muslim.

GreatChineseFall Here's a link to the rulings of Ayatollah Seyyed Ali al Sistani on the subject:

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2348/

No 2406 is relevant to your inquiry. Some other scholars rule that permanent marriage with Kitabi women is halal but makruh.

Quote
So mut'ah is used as a da'wah practice? Why is it forbidden for married men then? Or are only unmarried men suitable for this da'wah? Please, is it forbidden then to have children with them for as long as they are not converted? Or are you going to anticipate a conversion and produce children beforehand anyway?

Yes, naturally for Muslims with good akhlaq to spend time around non-Muslims can be a form of da'wah. Women converting to Islam to marry Muslim men, or due to being impressed by Muslims' adab, is a common occurrence.

In the case of children, to my understanding it will be similar to permanent marriage with Kitabi women whereby, assuming they don't revert, the situation is allowed but undesirable.

Quote
How generous of these guys to help these poor women out and how inconvenient for them that Allah has restricted a man to marry four women only. Can't he just help them out financially without a marriage or can't he guide them to other righteous and financially responsible men? Or is he the only suitable person around? In what world would this ever be the only practical solution to that problem?

Of course Allah(swt) has not made this Deen inconvenient for us. The above situation is one which I opined would be unlikely, though an eminent case would be that of a man away from home for extended periods of time.

For a man who isn't away from home, he may prefer to contract mut'ah than to provide support freely, or there may be other contingencies.

Quote
Finally, there it is, a partial admission after several posts. We are not there yet however, why don't you admit it fully while you are at it? To fulfill sexual needs doesn't just have to be an aspect of mut'ah, it can be the main purpose of it, can't it? So all those examples you just mentioned are just convenient examples. You have no problem with a man who lives with his four wives, and he isn't some place remote, and his wives aren't pregnant or unavailable or something, and his future mut'ah wife isn't financially in very difficult times or a widow, he simply doesn't have an "appetite" for his permanent wives, to just go and contract a mut'ah marriage with some woman or even multiple women for a few hours. You don't have a problem with this, as it's not only permissible, rather it is recommended and he is seen as someone who has done a virtuous act of worship. There lies the main difference with any other type of marriage.

An "admission" of something we're already aware of?
We already know that mut'ah is contracted for sexual relations to take place without sin; but it also has other social functions.

Regarding the "recommended" status of mut'ah, to my understating that's true but it depends on the circumstances. Marriage on the whole is recommended in Islam, and one of the many reasons for this is to satisfy physical needs in a halal manner. This is true for the Islamic view of marriage in general, so I don't concur with the "difference" you note in your last sentence.

It's highly unlikely that a man in the situation you describe above would look for a temporary marriage, especially since it's very rare for a man to have four wives to begin with. Therefore, this is more of a theoretical question than a real life one.

If in that situation, something was so amiss that his four wives weren't enough for him, it might be symptomatic of more deeply-rooted problems in the domestic sphere.
Temporary marriage may be halal for him, though that doesn't mean it would be the best thing for him to do.

Something I must remind you of is that according to all Muslims, the Holy Prophet(saws) made mut'ah halal and instructed the sahaaba to do it.

When you're questioning me from a skeptical angle, you're questioning something Allah(swt) and His Messenger(saws) made halal, according to your own beliefs.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 11, 2018, 06:19:52 PM
Noor-us-Sunnah Respect to you for referring to your "Shia sisters".

This is why I never lose hope.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 12, 2018, 06:22:29 PM
(https://muslimdunyaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/jummah-Mubarak-Images-49.png)


As-Salaamu alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

This video articulates many of the issues under discussion here and is well worth 50 minutes of your time:


Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 12, 2018, 10:23:00 PM
People blessed with wisdom will judge it.

I'm sure there are people who are blessed with wisdom and I'm sure you are too. I've been asking a question for some time now and I haven't got an answer till yet.

According to the Ahle Sunah the Prophet (s) prohibited Mutah, why? What was the reason and purpose? Surely there must have been a reason and purpose for the Prophet (s) to ban Mutah. What was it?

Is this what your belief and faith is based on,

"yes the Prophet (s) prohibited Mutah but we don't know why.'
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 12, 2018, 10:27:41 PM
He was wrong in his opinion. We reject his fatwa. This doesn't mean critizing Islam. As simple as that.

And for the same reason we don't need to accept and take everything every single Shia scholar says or every single thing written in every single book by a Shia. Surely you understand this that what applies to you also applies to us. We should be given and have the same right don't you think?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 13, 2018, 12:01:07 AM
(https://muslimdunyaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/jummah-Mubarak-Images-49.png)


As-Salaamu alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

This video articulates many of the issues under discussion here and is well worth 50 minutes of your time:





W alaikum asalam wa rahmatullah wa barakatu

Lol the tattooed priest he is funny to watch......not much to learn from a fitna monger but fun yes👍
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 13, 2018, 12:14:44 AM

W alaikum asalam wa rahmatullah wa barakatu

Lol the tattooed priest he is funny to watch......not much to learn from a fitna monger but fun yes👍

If he was a Suni then you wouldn't find it funny. Heck you wouldn't even post it. 😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 13, 2018, 12:29:20 AM
If he was a Suni then you wouldn't find it funny. Heck you wouldn't even post it. 😂

 "It was narrated that Abu Juhayfah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) cursed the one who does tattoos and the one who has a tattoo done.”

And that’s your scholar......he is a cursed tattooed soul😂👍
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 13, 2018, 12:41:08 AM
"It was narrated that Abu Juhayfah (may Allah be pleased with him) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) cursed the one who does tattoos and the one who has a tattoo done.”

And that’s your scholar......he is a cursed tattooed soul😂👍

Well since you've mentioned that he's our scholar then he wouldn't believe in what you've quoted then, would he to begin with?😀 Honestly you should be in kindergarten. Your behaviour is so childish.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 13, 2018, 01:03:36 AM
Well since you've mentioned that he's our scholar then he wouldn't believe in what you've quoted then, would he to begin with?😀 Honestly you should be in kindergarten. Your behaviour is so childish.

What are you waffling on about now?

He is your scholar and a poster has posted his vids to watch......I say he is not worth watching and him having tattoos is only 1 reason for no watching him. I provided a Hadith from us that goes against his tattoos....basically if he can’t follow a sunnah then he is of NO VALUE....simple.

I didn’t post the vid up to watch.....Mr  simpleton.

I think you have comprehension problems as many other brothers have also mentioned.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 13, 2018, 01:14:45 AM
What are you waffling on about now?

He is your scholar and a poster has posted his vids to watch......I say he is not worth watching and him having tattoos is only 1 reason for no watching him. I provided a Hadith from us that goes against his tattoos....basically if he can’t follow a sunnah then he is of NO VALUE....simple.

I didn’t post the vid up to watch.....Mr  simpleton.

I think you have comprehension problems as many other brothers have also mentioned.

Stop jumping up and down and try to post and say something useful and worth while. There's a clear difference between your and our Sunah. We follow the Prophet's (S) Sunah.

And you follow the Sunah of either  Imam Abu Hanifa or one of the other Imams. You're suni Hanfi or something else. You abandoned the Prophet's (s) sunah along time ago.

And so did certain rulers after his (s) death onwards started to bring about a change one way or the other based on their decisions.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 13, 2018, 01:56:43 AM
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GreatChineseFall Here's a link to the rulings of Ayatollah Seyyed Ali al Sistani on the subject:

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2348/

No 2406 is relevant to your inquiry. Some other scholars rule that permanent marriage with Kitabi women is halal but makruh.

This doesn't prove anything. It says "A Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim, and a male Muslim also cannot marry a non-Muslim woman who are not Ahlul Kitab. However, there is no harm in contracting temporary marriage with Jewish and Christians women, but the obligatory precaution is that a Muslim should not take them in permanent marriage." So as per obligatory precaution it is not allowed, that is different from makruh. Who are those other scholars?
Regardless of it being makruh, why is it different from mut'ah if conversion is sought? A Kitabi woman can convert due to a permanent marriage just as well as due to a temporary one. As far as the permanent one is concerned, you can always divorce after the same period of a potential temporary one if things don't work out.

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Yes, naturally for Muslims with good akhlaq to spend time around non-Muslims can be a form of da'wah. Women converting to Islam to marry Muslim men, or due to being impressed by Muslims' adab, is a common occurrence.

Irrelevant, Muslim women may earn a living from this practice, that doesn't mean that that is the intended purpose of mut'ah. What the consequences are or what it is used for, is irrelevant as to the reason why mut'ah is allowed. Mut'ah isn't allowed so that people have an extra da'wah tool to use. And why is it forbidden for married men? Are unmarried men the only ones who are suitable to show good akhlaq and convert them?

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In the case of children, to my understanding it will be similar to permanent marriage with Kitabi women whereby, assuming they don't revert, the situation is allowed but undesirable.

It is not similar, because one is closed off and forbidden and the other is allowed.

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Of course Allah(swt) has not made this Deen inconvenient for us. The above situation is one which I opined would be unlikely, though an eminent case would be that of a man away from home for extended periods of time.
If it is unlikely, then all the more reason not to allow more than four women, permanently and temporary in order to avoid abuse. Additionally, as per Shi'i scholars, it is not allowed to stay away for that long from one's wife and maybe he should divorce his wives so that his wives can move on instead of being neither married nor unmarried.

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For a man who isn't away from home, he may prefer to contract mut'ah than to provide support freely, or there may be other contingencies.
What a man prefers is irrelevant as a man may also prefer to have 5 permanent wives.

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An "admission" of something we're already aware of?
We already know that mut'ah is contracted for sexual relations to take place without sin; but it also has other social functions.

Let me correct you here, because you don't seem to understand the criticism:
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We already know that mut'ah is contracted for sexual relations to take place without sin; but it CAN also have other social functions, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO
This is what you don't seem to understand or are unwilling to understand. All those examples are convenient from an apologetic point of view. You may try to convert a Kitabi woman, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO. You may try to get to know each other, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
It is perfectly fine to contract a mut'ah marriage for the sole purpose of satisfying one's sexual needs and this is what you are unwilling to defend. As I said, a greater sign of insecurity is if people are dishonest about what they believe because they are too embarrassed to openly stand for what they believe.

You said earlier:
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This reality is in stark contrast to the ideas of those who try to paint mut'ah as some sort of licence for promiscuity.
It is actually exactly that, it doesn't matter how it is used by some people. As I said before, women may earn a living by doing this practice, that doesn't change the intended purpose of mut'ah to be a licence to earn a living. People can convert christian women with this practice, that doesn't mean that the purpose of mut'ah is to provide for a licence or a meanse to convert people. The main purpose of mut'ah is to provide a means to satisfy one's sexual needs and it's perfectly fine if it is SOLELY done for that. That is the whole idea behind mut'ah being made halal according to Shi'i scholars. So how is it not a licence to promiscuity?

By the way, would you have a problem with it if it was a licence to promiscuity? Is there something wrong with promiscuity? Promiscuity is defined as (and let's take Wikipedia's definition for example):
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Promiscuity is the practice of having casual sex frequently with different partners or being indiscriminate in the choice of sexual partners.
With casual sex being defined as:
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Casual sex is sexual activity that takes places outside a romantic relationship and implies an absence of commitment, emotional attachment, or familiarity between sexual partners.
In addition you said:
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The whole attitude of portraying sexual needs as being inherently embarrassing and shameful is not derived from Islam, but instead reflects the Christian attitude.
So let's see if you are embarrased. Again, is there something wrong with promiscuity? Do you have an issue with casual sex? Is this something to be ashamed of? Is it ok to satisfy one's sexual needs (in a halal way of course) without any commitment towards the other partner other than the duration of the act?

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Regarding the "recommended" status of mut'ah, to my understating that's true but it depends on the circumstances. Marriage on the whole is recommended in Islam, and one of the many reasons for this is to satisfy physical needs in a halal manner. This is true for the Islamic view of marriage in general, so I don't concur with the "difference" you note in your last sentence.

I don't know how to make it clearer, in mut'ah the main intended purpose is providing people with a lawful means to satisfy one's sexual needs and it CAN have other social functions. However, a commitment towards each other, other than financial compensation in the case of a man, is not required. Keyword is "can" here.
In a marriage, whether misyar or not, whether 'urfi or not, satisfying one's sexual needs is one of many goals where establishing a relationship between the two partners is sought and commitment towards each other is required and can't be ignored.
This is also the reason why mut'ah has a designated time period in the first place and this is also why it is equated with prostitution by some. There isn't a single contract that I know of where commitment is optional, even in a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship commitment towards each other is implied. The only other contract where a woman is financially compensated for allowing a man to satisfy his sexual needs without any implied commitment is prostitution.

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Something I must remind you of is that according to all Muslims, the Holy Prophet(saws) made mut'ah halal and instructed the sahaaba to do it.

When you're questioning me from a skeptical angle, you're questioning something Allah(swt) and His Messenger(saws) made halal, according to your own beliefs.

Marrying siblings was made halal for the children of Adam(as), alcohol was halal during the time of our Prophet(saws), that doesn't take away one's right to critize the practice once it is forbidden.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 13, 2018, 02:15:59 AM
Iceman comes across as one of them embarassing desi’s.

Why is there not even one single shia who comes on this site who addresses any subject in a clear academic manner?

I can see why twelver sciences are so weak, as their forefathers were an embarassment in hadith sciences, fiqh, seerah etc.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on January 13, 2018, 02:28:57 AM
I'm sure there are people who are blessed with wisdom and I'm sure you are too. I've been asking a question for some time now and I haven't got an answer till yet.

According to the Ahle Sunah the Prophet (s) prohibited Mutah, why? What was the reason and purpose? Surely there must have been a reason and purpose for the Prophet (s) to ban Mutah. What was it?

Is this what your belief and faith is based on,

"yes the Prophet (s) prohibited Mutah but we don't know why.'


Do you believe that for each ruling of Islam, it was necessary for Prophet(saws) to explain to people the reason behind that ruling ?

Isn't it rude towards Prophet(saws) ?
 
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 13, 2018, 02:37:39 AM
I realise that many of you will be surprised by the information I've brought on misyar and 'urfi marriage.

Many of you will not have known that such things existed at all, and others will not have realised their level of acceptance and practice in Sunni Muslim societies.

Indeed I did not know that misyar existed until my interaction with (online) Shias.  That, in of itself, substantiates the point most of us have been trying to make and by acknowledging it, I think you've shot yourself in the foot.  Most Sunnis do not know about misyar because irrespective of its rate of occurrence, though I am sure it is not nearly as rampant as mutah is, it is discouraged by our scholars.  Can you say the same about mutah within Shiaism?  The online world is full of Shia narrations and videos encouraging mutah.  Yet, those that encourage mutah cannot imagine such an alliance for their own women.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 13, 2018, 04:11:38 AM
Iceman comes across as one of them embarassing desi’s.

Why is there not even one single shia who comes on this site who addresses any subject in a clear academic manner?

I can see why twelver sciences are so weak, as their forefathers were an embarassment in hadith sciences, fiqh, seerah etc.

The feelings mutual my friend. What do you exactly know about academic manner. How academic are certain others for example Hadharami. All you do is kiss up to each other and are doing your best to score one against the Shias. well you haven't scored any goals so far. Stop crying over your disappointment. Enough has been said on this subject. If you don't want to use your brain because you've been fed so much against the Shias then there's nothing academic for you.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 13, 2018, 01:52:47 PM
Stop jumping up and down and try to post and say something useful and worth while. There's a clear difference between your and our Sunah. We follow the Prophet's (S) Sunah.

And you follow the Sunah of either  Imam Abu Hanifa or one of the other Imams. You're suni Hanfi or something else. You abandoned the Prophet's (s) sunah along time ago.

And so did certain rulers after his (s) death onwards started to bring about a change one way or the other based on their decisions.

Yes a big difference....you follow a Jew and his sunnah of divine authority.

Only giving you the truth😊

You have hardly no sayings going directly back to prophet saw......so how did you get your sunnah? Some doing taqiyya?? Great👍

Following a student of ahlubaith ra is better than following a deviant who was punished by ahlubaith ra.(Ibn Saba who thought of the divine authority dream)👍😂😂

And now ......that divine authority dream has turned into a nightmare 12th man down the line........coz the 12th divine authority is scared and in hiding and is waiting for just 313 true divinity followers. At the moment out of possibly 150 mill Shiites......he still cannot get a meagre 313!!

That’s 12’r divinity Shiism 🙄🙄🙄

That’s sense and logic of a Shiite for you.😁

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 13, 2018, 06:03:52 PM
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This doesn't prove anything. It says "A Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim, and a male Muslim also cannot marry a non-Muslim woman who are not Ahlul Kitab. However, there is no harm in contracting temporary marriage with Jewish and Christians women, but the obligatory precaution is that a Muslim should not take them in permanent marriage." So as per obligatory precaution it is not allowed, that is different from makruh. Who are those other scholars?
Regardless of it being makruh, why is it different from mut'ah if conversion is sought? A Kitabi woman can convert due to a permanent marriage just as well as due to a temporary one. As far as the permanent one is concerned, you can always divorce after the same period of a potential temporary one if things don't work out

GreatChineseFall, Obligatory precaution does not necessarily mean "not allowed":

https://www.al-islam.org/the-basics-of-islamic-jurisprudence-hassan-al-ridai/jurisprudence-jargon

Here are the links you requested to scholars who allow (recommended precaution as opposed to obligatory precaution) permanent marriage with Kitabi women:

http://www.english.shirazi.ir/topics/marriage

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/marriage

In the second link, please go to number 2406.

As for the similarities you suggest between temporary and permanent marriage where conversion is sought, I believe you've partially answered your own question with reference to divorce. Divorce is a highly makruh act which temporary marriage avoids.

We also have to consider the differences in niyyah and in practical application: a temporary marriage, with the expressed hope that conversion will take place, is a lot different from a permanent marriage in which the wife has been offered a lifelong commitment while still being Jewish or Christian.

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If it is unlikely, then all the more reason not to allow more than four women, permanently and temporary in order to avoid abuse. Additionally, as per Shi'i scholars, it is not allowed to stay away for that long from one's wife and maybe he should divorce his wives so that his wives can move on instead of being neither married nor unmarried.

On the contrary, surely it's better to have halal options for diverse contingencies and exigencies.
One of the things that separates Islam from other religions is that it is universal and provides for us in whatever state or situation we may find ourselves in.

If you're aware of a consensus among Shi'i scholars of a particular time limit for absence from one's wives, please elucidate if you feel it pertains to the discussion.

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Marrying siblings was made halal for the children of Adam(as), alcohol was halal during the time of our Prophet(saws), that doesn't take away one's right to critize the practice once it is forbidden

The alcohol example is inadmissable because the Holy Prophet(saws) never instructed anyone to drink alcohol - a dissolute practice which was forbidden in stages; whereas he positively instructed the Muslims to do mut'ah.

While your example of Nabi Adam(as) is more apposite, that was a different time, with a different state of humanity and a different Shari'ah.
Mut'ah however was made halal under our current Prophet(saws) whose Shari'ah is valid for our current humanity until the Yawm-ul-Qiyamah.

Taking this into account, then even if you believe mut'ah has been abolished, surely it's inappropriate to refer to it disparagingly.

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Irrelevant, Muslim women may earn a living from this practice, that doesn't mean that that is the intended purpose of mut'ah. What the consequences are or what it is used for, is irrelevant as to the reason why mut'ah is allowed. Mut'ah isn't allowed so that people have an extra da'wah tool to use. And why is it forbidden for married men? Are unmarried men the only ones who are suitable to show good akhlaq and convert them?

Here you are defining mut'ah on your own terms. You have definitively stated that "mut'ah isn't allowed so that people have an extra da'wah tool to use.".
What authority do you have to restrict the applications of mut'ah to those you yourself perceive?

Please refer to 2430 in the above link.

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This is what you don't seem to understand or are unwilling to understand. All those examples are convenient from an apologetic point of view. You may try to convert a Kitabi woman, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO. You may try to get to know each other, BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO.
It is perfectly fine to contract a mut'ah marriage for the sole purpose of satisfying one's sexual needs and this is what you are unwilling to defend. As I said, a greater sign of insecurity is if people are dishonest about what they believe because they are too embarrassed to openly stand for what they believe.

You've made yourself clear and I understand you very well as I did in the previous post.

According to your own narrations, the Holy Prophet(saws) instructed the sahaaba to do mut'ah for "the sole purpose of satisfying one's sexual needs", so why would you expect me to feel "embarrassed" about this?

Just as it can be contracted for sexual needs to be met in a halal way, it can also be contracted for other reasons with the stipulation that no sexual contact will take place.

Your insistence on the primacy of the sexual aspect is of no ultimate consequence, since Allah(saws) has blessed us with a Deen which addresses all our needs, both spiritual and temporal.

The word "mut'ah" is derived from an Arabic root which connotes pleasure, while the word "nikah" is derived from an Arabic root which connotes sexual intercourse. Since one of the primary rights of a man in nikah, according to all Muslims, is sexual intercourse, can we therefore dismiss as peripheral all the other aspects of nikah and say that marriage itself is essentially just a sexual arrangement?

My reference to promiscuity was on account of the negative connotations the word has in the English language.
It is within these cultural parentheses that I have also brought attention to the differences between Islamic teachings and Christian attitudes; and this in turn is demonstrative of the wider reality that many people are embarrassed about sexuality in general and often close off legal avenues. For example Allah(swt) has stated in the Holy Qur'an:

 ثُمَّ قَفَّينا عَلىٰ آثارِهِم بِرُسُلِنا وَقَفَّينا بِعيسَى ابنِ مَريَمَ وَآتَيناهُ الإِنجيلَ وَجَعَلنا في قُلوبِ الَّذينَ اتَّبَعوهُ رَأفَةً وَرَحمَةً وَرَهبانِيَّةً ابتَدَعوها ما كَتَبناها عَلَيهِم إِلَّا ابتِغاءَ رِضوانِ اللَّهِ فَما رَعَوها حَقَّ رِعايَتِها ۖ فَآتَينَا الَّذينَ آمَنوا مِنهُم أَجرَهُم ۖ وَكَثيرٌ مِنهُم فاسِقونَ

Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented. We ordained it not for them. Only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers. (Holy Qur'an 57:27)

From Christan history we know that monasticism involved them enforcing celibacy upon themselves and closing off what Allah(swt) had permitted for them.

There's no apparent reason why the "embarrassment" you speak of with regard to mut'ah is different from the common human embarrassment pertaining to carnal desires in general, the same embarrassment which caused monks and priests to impose celibacy on themselves or which causes modern Westerners to criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws).

Since there's no Islamic sanction for these attitudes, they're not something we as Muslims need consider ourselves fettered by.

I hope I have hereby clarified any lingering ambiguities.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 13, 2018, 06:10:24 PM
Indeed I did not know that misyar existed until my interaction with (online) Shias.  That, in of itself, substantiates the point most of us have been trying to make and by acknowledging it, I think you've shot yourself in the foot...

In English we have the well known saying: "Don't shoot the messenger".
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 01:04:00 AM
Yes a big difference....you follow a Jew and his sunnah of divine authority.

Only giving you the truth😊

You have hardly no sayings going directly back to prophet saw......so how did you get your sunnah? Some doing taqiyya?? Great👍

Following a student of ahlubaith ra is better than following a deviant who was punished by ahlubaith ra.(Ibn Saba who thought of the divine authority dream)👍😂😂

And now ......that divine authority dream has turned into a nightmare 12th man down the line........coz the 12th divine authority is scared and in hiding and is waiting for just 313 true divinity followers. At the moment out of possibly 150 mill Shiites......he still cannot get a meagre 313!!

That’s 12’r divinity Shiism 🙄🙄🙄

That’s sense and logic of a Shiite for you.😁

You're not giving me the truth but the nonsense and rubbish you've been fed with about Shias from day one. Muhammad (s) is the one we follow and he wasn't a Jew. Certain companions disregard him (s) and what he had to offer around and during his (s) final days. They had other intentions and for that the Muslim Ummah is paying the price.

We got our Sunan from the following chain; Al Askari from Al Naqi from Al Taqi from Al Raza from Al Kazim from Al Sadiq from Al Baqir from Al Sajjad from Al Hussain and Al Hassan from Al murtaza from Muhammad (s) 😊

We know who and what we are. WHAT ABOUT YOU?

Ibne Saba is a fictional story created by Anti Shias and occultation isn't hiding. You already Jesus and Khizar awaiting 😊 Use your aql. 😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 01:07:27 AM
A misyar marriage (Arabic: نكاح المسيار‎, translit. nikah al-misyar or more often زواج المسيار zawaj al-misyar "traveller's marriage") is a type of Sunni marriage contract (some aspects are similar to mutah marriage in Shia Islam).
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 01:34:23 AM
What is Nikah Misyar, and is this kind of Marriage Permitted according to Shari’a?
<QUESTION>
What is a Nikah Misyar? Is this kind of marriage permitted according to Shari’a?

<ANSWER>
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
The term “Nikah Misyar” (translated sometimes as “travellers’ marriage” or “marriage of convenience”) is not found in the Qur’an, Sunna or classical works of Islamic jurisprudence. It is a term that has been introduced recently by those discussing a specific type of matrimonial arrangement. However, the concept of such an arrangement can be found being discussed in the works of classical Muslim jurists (fuqaha).

In order to understand the correct Islamic viewpoint regarding Nikah Misyar, it is essential to first be familiar with the exact meaning of this term, as understood by those who have discussed it.

Definition

A Misyar marriage can be defined as an official marriage contract between a man and a woman, with the condition that the spouses give up one, two or several of their rights by their own free will. These include: living together, equal division of nights between wives in cases of polygamy, the wife’s right to housing (sukna) and financial support (nafaqa). In some cases, only one right is relinquished by the spouses, such as living together, but the husband is still required to provide housing for the wife and maintain her financially, whilst in other instances, the wife gives up all her rights including housing and financial support. The bottom line in such arrangements is that the couple agree to live separately from each other, as before their Nikah contract, and see each other to fulfil their needs in a lawful manner when they so desire. At times, a Misyar marriage is contracted on a temporary basis which ends in divorce on the expiration date of the contract.

Islamic Ruling

As for the Islamic ruling concerning such marriages, there are two issues to consider:

1) Validity and permissibility;

2) Appropriateness.

I. Validity and Permissibility

If all the basic requirements for an Islamic marriage contract are fulfilled, then this type of marriage arrangement is permissible and valid, and the couple will not be guilty of being involved in an unlawful illicit relationship. The basic requirements for a valid marriage according to Shari’a are the following:

a) Offer (ijab) from one party and acceptance (qabul) from the other in one session (majlis), and that this offer and acceptance is verbal and thus heard and understood clearly. In other words, the agreement of both parties.

b) The presence of at least two male witnesses (shahidayn), or one male and two female witnesses, who hear and clearly understand the offer and acceptance. (Mukhtasar al-Quduri 2/140 & Fath al-Qadir 3/190)

c) The consent of a legal guardian of the woman (wali) is also a necessary requirement according to the Maliki, Shafi’i and Hanbali Schools of Sunni Islamic Law. However, according to the relied upon position in the Hanafi School, the marriage of a free, sane and adult woman without the approval of her guardian (wali) is valid if the person she is marrying is a “legal” and suitable match (kuf’) for her. Conversely, if the person she is marrying is not a legal match for her, then her marriage would be considered invalid. (Radd al-Muhtar ala ‘l-Durr al-Mukhtar 3/56-57 & I’la al-Sunan 11/69 in the chapter: “Having a guardian is not a pre-requisite for the validity of an adult woman’s marriage”. For more details, please refer to the answer previously posted on this website titled: “Divorced woman marrying without her guardian’s approval”).

d) The absence of a fixed time-period. It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace).

Classical jurists (fuqaha) have clearly stated the impermissibility and invalidity of time-limited (mu’aqqat) marriages. Imam al-Haskafi, the renowned Hanafi jurist, states:

“A Mut’a and time-limited marriage (nikah mu’aqqat) is invalid, even if the period [of marriage] is unknown to the wife or is prolonged...” (Radd al-Muhtar ala ‘l-Durr al-Mukhtar 3/51. Also see for the Shafi’i School: Mughni al-Muhtaj Sharh al-Minhaj 4/231, for the Hanbali School: Kashshaf al-Qina’ 5/96-97, and the Maliki School: Hashiyat al-Dasuqi ala ‘l-Sharh al-Kabir 2/238-239)

As for when there is no explicit mention of the marriage being limited to a specified time, but both or one of the spouses intend to terminate the marriage some time in the future, the position of the majority of classical scholars is that such a marriage is valid, and the couple will not be guilty of involving themselves in an unlawful relationship.

It is stated in al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya, a renowned Hanafi reference work:

If a man marries a woman unconditionally [i.e. without it being limited to a specified time], and it is in his intention to remain with her for a time that he intends [and then divorce her], then the marriage is valid...” (al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya 1/283)

Likewise, Imam Ibn al-Humam (Allah have mercy on him) states in his Fath al-Qadir:

As for when the husband marries and it is in his intention to divorce her after a period that he intends, then the marriage is valid.” (Fath al-Qadir, 3/152)

The Shafi’is also state that if one marries, and it is in his intention to divorce the wife after a period of time he has in mind, the marriage is considered valid. As for the Hanbalis, they have explicitly stated that if a person marries with the intention of divorcing the woman, even without stating it explicitly in the marriage contract itself, then the marriage is invalid, because it is a temporary marriage, which is invalid by explicit primary texts. (See: al-Mawsu’a al-Fiqhiyya, Kuwait)

Since Islam emphasises upholding marriages, the couple will not be obligated to terminate their marriage according to their intention, rather they must not resort to divorce without a genuine reason. Marrying with the intention of ending the marriage after a given period is disliked according to Shari’a, and as such, a marriage contracted with such an intention in mind is also disliked, although valid per se. (Mufti Taqi Usmani, Fiqhi Maqalat 1/258)

So, the basic minimum requirement in order for a marriage to be considered Islamically valid is that there be a valid offer from one party and a corresponding acceptance from the other, in the presence of two male (or one male and two female) witnesses who are able to hear clearly and understand what is happening. The offer, acceptance and the presence of the witnesses must all take place in the same session and at the same place, and there must not be any explicit mention of the marriage being limited to a specified time. The consent of the woman’s guardian is also necessary according to the three Schools, and in some cases, according to the Hanafi School also. As for the payment of dowry (mahr), this is the woman’s right and should be stipulated at the time of the marriage contract, but it is not a pre-requisite for the validly of the marriage.

As such, if the above necessary factors are met, the marriage is valid according to Shari’a, even if it is a “Misyar” marriage. Thus, if the Misyar marriage is limited to a specified time, it is invalid, and the couple’s relationship will be unlawful and sinful. Men who sometimes enter into a “temporary” Misyar marriage while on holiday must realize that if this is explicitly mentioned at the time of contracting the marriage, then it would make such a marriage invalid and unlawful, and more akin to Mut’a. If there is no explicit mention of this, but the man marries with the intention of divorce, then it is disliked, and unlawful [but valid] if it entails harm to the woman.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 02:10:05 AM
So what my understanding of the above is; Misyar and Mutah, when it comes to Misyar the time limit of the marriage isn't mentioned but the intention of it being limited is there and at the beginning because that's the reason for it in the first place. The man intents to marry with the intention of divorce at sone point or stage. Because it's also called a travelers marriage. When the travel period is over what then?

When it comes to Mutah the intention of it being limited is clearly mentioned at the beginning by declaring the time period. This is called being honest and clear rather than hidden or sneaky. Both, Misyar and Mutah, are for the same reason and purpose. So what's exactly the difference and what is the game here? Whether you hold your nose straight or bend and turn your arm all the way around the back of your head and then hold your nose that way, you're still holding your nose at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 02:15:25 AM
Misyar marriage has become a social reality and, as such, a solution to some problems and a cause of others, said a professor at King Saud University in Riyadh.
“Misyar is widespread because many need to keep their marriages a secret, either due to the objection of the first wife or other family pressures,” Ali Al-Bakr, faculty member at KSU, told a local daily.
Getting married in the Kingdom is no longer easy, according to one report, thanks to countless social and economic obstacles, including extortionate dowries, costly wedding extravaganzas and lack of housing.
In a misyar marriage the woman waives some of the rights she would enjoy in a normal marriage. Most misyar brides don’t change their residences but pursue marriage on a visitation basis. Some marriage officials say seven of 10 marriage contracts they conduct are misyar, and in some cases are asked to recommend prospective misyar partners.
Some people believe that these factors have led to the widespread practice of misyar, which has flexible conditions compared with traditional marriages, as a last resort. “It remains an option, albeit a temporary one, which is, nevertheless, seen as unfair to women in many cases,” said a national.
Saeed Al-Omari, a Saudi lawyer, said that such marriages have been legally recognized since conditions, including the presence of guardians and witnesses, are in place within their framework.
He said the Misyar practice is in line with Ministry of Justice regulations requiring the husband to sign contract documents that have to be ratified by local courts in accordance with Article 22 of the Saudi Marriage Act.
Despite there being consensus among a large segment of religious scholars about the legality of the Misyar model or marriage, not least because it stops youth from having illicit relations outside of wedlock, the practice is still considered taboo among many communities.
“The practice has been exploited by many, leading to negative stereotypes among several communities, which consider Misyar an insult to women,” he said.
For Al-Omar, this type of marriage could, nonetheless, reduce spinsterhood and protect divorcees and widows. It also comes to the rescue of youth, many of whom cannot afford either the short-term and long-term costs of regular marriages.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 02:19:28 AM
Nikah Misyar
This marriage is a normal Islamic marriage with the exception that the husband and wife give up several rights by their own free will, such as living together, equal division of nights between wives in cases of polygyny, the wife's rights to housing, and maintenance money ("nafaqa"), and the husband's right of homekeeping, and access etc. and it is practiced by sunnis.

These rights are not considered obligatory for the marriage contract to happen according to Islam.

Also, Misyar is not temporary. If the marriage is fixed (temporary) then this is haram according to Sunnis.

Last point, Majority of scholars disallowed Misyar marriage, such as Yusuf al-Qaradwai and al-albani and other.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 02:26:41 AM
Nikah Misyar
This marriage is a normal Islamic marriage with the exception that the husband and wife give up several rights by their own free will, such as living together, equal division of nights between wives in cases of polygyny, the wife's rights to housing, and maintenance money ("nafaqa"), and the husband's right of homekeeping, and access etc. and it is practiced by sunnis.

These rights are not considered obligatory for the marriage contract to happen according to Islam.

Also, Misyar is not temporary. If the marriage is fixed (temporary) then this is haram according to Sunnis.

Last point, Majority of scholars disallowed Misyar marriage, such as Yusuf al-Qaradwai and al-albani and other.

Note this;

'Also, Misyar is not temporary. If the marriage is fixed (temporary) then this is haram according to Sunnis'

So what's the whole point, reason and purpose of Misyar then? Why not stick to Nikah in the first place? I mean the intention to end the marriage and some point or stage in Misyar is there to start and begin with. May be someone on this site can step forward and clarify this.

MISYAR – Temporary Marriage in Sunni Islam
October 13, 2011by Aftab Zaidi

The adherents of Sunni Islam have been vocal in criticizing the Shia practice of temporary marriage called Muttah. This form of marriage is a valid part of the Shia doctrine and is being followed predominantly in Iran and several parts of Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussain. However it might come as a surprise that a similar type of marriage also exists in Sunni Islam. It is known as Misyar or traveler’s marriage. It is carried out in Sunni majority countries, specifically Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Syria.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 15, 2018, 02:32:53 AM
You're not giving me the truth but the nonsense and rubbish you've been fed with about Shias from day one. Muhammad (s) is the one we follow and he wasn't a Jew. Certain companions disregard him (s) and what he had to offer around and during his (s) final days. They had other intentions and for that the Muslim Ummah is paying the price.

We got our Sunan from the following chain; Al Askari from Al Naqi from Al Taqi from Al Raza from Al Kazim from Al Sadiq from Al Baqir from Al Sajjad from Al Hussain and Al Hassan from Al murtaza from Muhammad (s) 😊

We know who and what we are. WHAT ABOUT YOU?

Ibne Saba is a fictional story created by Anti Shias and occultation isn't hiding. You already Jesus and Khizar awaiting 😊 Use your aql. 😊

Yes Ibn Saba was a Jew and yes you follow him and his divinity Imamate theory, don’t kid yourself😁

You got your sunnah starting from above guy followed by liars and deceivers playing taqiyyah using it as an excuse to cowardly lie upon lie upon the family of the prophet saw......to this day you are regurgitating the same tripe what Ibn Saba used to say.......imam Ali ra punished him, whilst his followers (YOU) carry on the torch of divinity imarmite leaderships.......without any evidence from Quran or sunnah!😊

Occultation: hiding from view
http://origin-mwebserp.dictionary.com/browse/occultation

ISA as isn’t in occultation or hiding....He ISA as wasn’t in fear or running, Allah swt RAISED Him up and put someone else who resembled Him instead.......how does Isa as relate to a running scared guy,fearing his life,and hiding in a cave? I think your AQL has gone in occultation itself to be honest if your comparing a prophet mentioned in the Quran to a fairytale unknown member of ahlu baith ra.😂
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 02:36:53 AM
However (Misyar) this sort of reasoning makes no mention of the completely unequal bargaining powers of the two parties and the fact that the woman has almost no power to insist on the conditions specified in such a contract. The fact that a women agrees to a marriage which provides her with almost no rights compared to what she would be entitled to otherwise, is clear evidence of her lower bargaining position. By evaluating such a contract entirely as a legal document to which the two parties have consented is to completely ignore the inherent gender inequalities which actually led to the creation of such a legal instrument.

Moreover, the societal consequences for children born out of such a union can be utterly devastating. A home from which a father is absent for no apparent reason can have a deep psychological impact on young impressionable minds. The situation for the woman can become worse if the wife is abandoned or renounced by her Misyar husband. This can also result in her having to raise kids as a single mother with hardly any means of subsistence. Additionally, since a Misyar marriage does not have an expiry date, the woman cannot marry another man unless she is divorced by her Misyar husband.

There are other reasons that force women to cave into such destructive choices. In 2008, Saudi Arabia had around 200,000 women who received no support from their blood relatives. The requirement of the Saudi government for these women to produce Mehrams who would provide them with permission to work or travel often compel them to enter into Misyar marriages for the only purpose of earning a livelihood or gaining permission for travel.

Although legal loopholes have been developed to justify the act of temporary marriages, these marriages are no better than a legalized form of prostitution.  The victim in every case turns out to be a woman with little or no say. Such arrangements should be discouraged and steps need to be taken to completely eradicate this menace.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 15, 2018, 04:32:27 AM
In English we have the well known saying: "Don't shoot the messenger".

I will give you an "A" in English but I am afraid you failed your own argument with your inability to (yet again) comment on (the possibility of) mutah being "mustahab" versus misyar being "makrooh".
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 15, 2018, 05:16:13 AM
I will give you an "A" in English but I am afraid you failed your own argument with your inability to (yet again) comment on (the possibility of) mutah being "mustahab" versus misyar being "makrooh".

Bump......whalop. I new you couldn't respond any better.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 15, 2018, 05:26:11 AM
Bump......whalop. I new you couldn't respond any better.

You are an amazing brother however, masha'Allah.  I like you.  You can read what is in my heart and mind over the internet.  Next time put spell-check to use.  Your impeccable responses deserve unblemished presentation.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 16, 2018, 12:07:51 AM
You are an amazing brother however, masha'Allah.  I like you.  You can read what is in my heart and mind over the internet.  Next time put spell-check to use.  Your impeccable responses deserve unblemished presentation.

Plenty has been said and put forward. You disregard everything along with certain others and only wish to comment on what suits you and what your comfortable with and what you can get away with. Marvellous! What can I say.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 16, 2018, 12:11:06 AM
You’re obviously not here take part in any serious discussion.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 16, 2018, 12:24:03 AM
Plenty has been said and put forward. You disregard everything along with certain others and only wish to comment on what suits you and what your comfortable with and what you can get away with. Marvellous!

Plenty has been said, but none of it actually addressed the topic at hand.

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What can I say.

You can say something related to the topic without engaging in a whole bunch of "whatabouttery."

You can answer any of these questions:

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1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 16, 2018, 12:57:49 AM
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GreatChineseFall, Obligatory precaution does not necessarily mean "not allowed":

https://www.al-islam.org/the-basics-of-islamic-jurisprudence-hassan-al-ridai/jurisprudence-jargon

Here are the links you requested to scholars who allow (recommended precaution as opposed to obligatory precaution) permanent marriage with Kitabi women:

http://www.english.shirazi.ir/topics/marriage

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/marriage

In the second link, please go to number 2406.

I didn't say not allowed, I said as per obligatory precaution it is not allowed(according to Sistani). And that is not the same as makruh and neither does recommended precaution mean that, but fair enough. However, there is a different judgment compared to mutah, which brings me to the following:

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As for the similarities you suggest between temporary and permanent marriage where conversion is sought, I believe you've partially answered your own question with reference to divorce. Divorce is a highly makruh act which temporary marriage avoids.

We also have to consider the differences in niyyah and in practical application: a temporary marriage, with the expressed hope that conversion will take place, is a lot different from a permanent marriage in which the wife has been offered a lifelong commitment while still being Jewish or Christian.

As has been said before, divorce is only disliked without a valid reason. You can not have being in a marriage with a Christian disliked(or even forbidden) and ending a marriage with a Christian also being disliked. That would mean that no matter what you do, you would be doing something that is disliked. This is not possible.

In a permanent marriage you can also express hope that a conversion will take place and a lifelong commitment can be conditional. That would mean that a man can't commit to a wife who is not wearing her hijab or a woman can't marry a man who drinks for example until that behaviour has changed.

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On the contrary, surely it's better to have halal options for diverse contingencies and exigencies.
One of the things that separates Islam from other religions is that it is universal and provides for us in whatever state or situation we may find ourselves in.

If you're aware of a consensus among Shi'i scholars of a particular time limit for absence from one's wives, please elucidate if you feel it pertains to the discussion.

So what about the married men? What if they are away in a Christian country or land with only Christian women. What is the solution to their situation and why can't they contract mut'ah and try to convert them? Why is it only allowed for unmarried men?

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2349/
See 2427. So you can't be away for more than four months.

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The alcohol example is inadmissable because the Holy Prophet(saws) never instructed anyone to drink alcohol - a dissolute practice which was forbidden in stages; whereas he positively instructed the Muslims to do mut'ah.

While your example of Nabi Adam(as) is more apposite, that was a different time, with a different state of humanity and a different Shari'ah.
Mut'ah however was made halal under our current Prophet(saws) whose Shari'ah is valid for our current humanity until the Yawm-ul-Qiyamah.

Taking this into account, then even if you believe mut'ah has been abolished, surely it's inappropriate to refer to it disparagingly.
Fair enough, however the connotation that you are trying to push by stating that the Prophet(saws) "positively instructed" the companions to do mut'ah. He(saws) permitted it under very specific circumstances and for a short period of time. That would be the same as saying that the Prophet(saws) positively instructed the wife of Abu Juhayfa to breastfeed Salim, an adult companion. You might say that the period of allowing mut'ah was longer or that more companions did it, however that is of no relevance.

Secondly, something I forgot to mention before is the difference in what was allowed and what is currently considered to be allowed. Mut'ah was as I said was permitted under very specific circumstances where the choice was between castration and mut'ah. The same scenario applies to taqiyya for example. Sunni's believe that the circumstances under which it is allowed are very strict and find the concept of taqiyya in Shi'i thought extremely problematic and a license to deceive and lie.

So no, I disagree, people can critize and even ridicule the promotion of the unrestricted and recommended practice of breastfeeding adults as a license to promiscuity and the almost unrestricted and recommended practice of taqiyya as a license to deceive and lie just as much as they can do that for the almost unrestricted and recommended practice of mut'ah.

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Here you are defining mut'ah on your own terms. You have definitively stated that "mut'ah isn't allowed so that people have an extra da'wah tool to use.".
What authority do you have to restrict the applications of mut'ah to those you yourself perceive?

Please refer to 2430 in the above link.

I am not restricting its use in any way. Use mut'ah for whatever you like, it doesn't change the intended purpose of it though. A simple example would be the use of a screwdriver. Obviously, the intended use of a screwdriver is to unscrew things. You can then point out that with screwdrivers you can pick your nose with it or use them as chopsticks to eat your noodles or not do anything with it, you just want to observe it. That's all fine and do that if you want, as I am not restricting anything. It doesn't change the fact that the intended usage of a screwdriver is to unscrew things.

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You've made yourself clear and I understand you very well as I did in the previous post.

According to your own narrations, the Holy Prophet(saws) instructed the sahaaba to do mut'ah for "the sole purpose of satisfying one's sexual needs", so why would you expect me to feel "embarrassed" about this?

I don't think you understand completely, refer again to my comment regarding unrestricted and recommended practice of adult breastfeeding. Maybe another example will help. This is what the late Fadhlallah declared with respect to pornography:
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Q: Is it permissible for a frigid wife or husband to watch pornographic scenes?

A: I don’t think it has been scientifically proven that watching pornographic films is a reliable treatment for frigidity; on the contrary, it often has negative results. Also, morally speaking, this weakens moral immunity, and attaches people, even couples, to a mood of dissolution which makes man feel alienated from his wife when she fails to imitate the woman who plays the sexual role in the film, and makes the wife alienated from her husband if he fails to imitate the male figure.

Similarly, the same thing happens upon fornication. When a man fornicates with an experienced [Edited Out], he feels disappointed when his wife fails to offer moves similar to the ones offered by the [Edited Out], who has provided him with all elements of excitement. Perhaps this is one among the reasons that have led some jurists to forbid temporary marriage (mutaa) to common prostitutes. So, we believe that the x-rated movies and pornography have a negative impact on the spiritual, moral and family sides of a person; thus, I forbid it for spouses.

But, if a husband or a wife, or both suffer frigidity in the absence of any means of treatment, whether natural- through mutual excitation -or through medication, and if the only treatment is watching pornographic scenes, then this will be permissible, only because this is the only means, keeping in mind that this should be done apart from any excess, just like taking the proper dosage of the medicine prescribed, provided that this passive situation may threaten their matrimonial life.

You don't have to point out that Fadhlallah is not the Prophet(saws) or that such a situation hasn't occurred yet or that he is simply wrong, as it is not relevant for this point. All that matters is if someone would agree with him, does that mean that such a person would not feel embarrassed regarding unrestricted and recommended pornography or that Fadhlallah himself wasn't embarrassed regarding unrestricted and recommended pornography.

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Just as it can be contracted for sexual needs to be met in a halal way, it can also be contracted for other reasons with the stipulation that no sexual contact will take place.
Irrelevant

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Your insistence on the primacy of the sexual aspect is of no ultimate consequence, since Allah(saws) has blessed us with a Deen which addresses all our needs, both spiritual and temporal.

The word "mut'ah" is derived from an Arabic root which connotes pleasure, while the word "nikah" is derived from an Arabic root which connotes sexual intercourse. Since one of the primary rights of a man in nikah, according to all Muslims, is sexual intercourse, can we therefore dismiss as peripheral all the other aspects of nikah and say that marriage itself is essentially just a sexual arrangement?

No, because as you correctly stated it is "ONE OF THE primary rights" as there are many rights and also many obligations. We can't dissmiss them as peripheral because they are NOT peripheral, it's that simple. In the case of mut'ah, they are peripheral or totally absent and left to the discretion and mutual consent of the two engaged in it. Suffice to say that if one were to marry without stating any conditions, many rights and obligations would solidify due to absence of stating any conditions. Mut'ah on the other hand, if one were to contract that without stating any specific conditions it would result in hardly anything else besides conjugal rights and financial compensation.

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My reference to promiscuity was on account of the negative connotations the word has in the English language.
It is within these cultural parentheses that I have also brought attention to the differences between Islamic teachings and Christian attitudes; and this in turn is demonstrative of the wider reality that many people are embarrassed about sexuality in general and often close off legal avenues. For example Allah(swt) has stated in the Holy Qur'an:

 ثُمَّ قَفَّينا عَلىٰ آثارِهِم بِرُسُلِنا وَقَفَّينا بِعيسَى ابنِ مَريَمَ وَآتَيناهُ الإِنجيلَ وَجَعَلنا في قُلوبِ الَّذينَ اتَّبَعوهُ رَأفَةً وَرَحمَةً وَرَهبانِيَّةً ابتَدَعوها ما كَتَبناها عَلَيهِم إِلَّا ابتِغاءَ رِضوانِ اللَّهِ فَما رَعَوها حَقَّ رِعايَتِها ۖ فَآتَينَا الَّذينَ آمَنوا مِنهُم أَجرَهُم ۖ وَكَثيرٌ مِنهُم فاسِقونَ

Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented. We ordained it not for them. Only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers. (Holy Qur'an 57:27)

From Christan history we know that monasticism involved them enforcing celibacy upon themselves and closing off what Allah(swt) had permitted for them.
I have not much to comment here. Long story short, you have no problem with casual sex in general and no issue with being promiscuous?

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There's no apparent reason why the "embarrassment" you speak of with regard to mut'ah is different from the common human embarrassment pertaining to carnal desires in general, the same embarrassment which caused monks and priests to impose celibacy on themselves or which causes modern Westerners to criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws).

Since there's no Islamic sanction for these attitudes, they're not something we as Muslims need consider ourselves fettered by.
Embarrassement or rather shame is intrinsically connnected to the value, stature and honour of a person and one feels shame if their honour is attacked or their stature and value is perceived to be lowered. Basically, embarrassement or shame can be of three types. One can feel embarrassed because they feel inadequate or even worthless due to their situation in general, for example a person may have a deformity or consider himself unattractive. One can feel shame because they have been wronged and this wronging is humiliating and an attack on their honour, like a person who has been raped. These two types are not problematic because the person himself is not actively participating in any wrongdoing. The last one is feeling embarrassement because you are doing something wrong that attacks the honour of someone, possibly yourself, like doing zina.

However, the first two types can't apply to mut'ah because you are an active participant in this. What about embarrassement regarding carnal desires? People, at least Muslims(I can't speak for Christians) are not embarrassed by their carnal desires, as no one feels that it makes them inadequate or less of a man if they have those desires(maybe Christians do) and they are not actively doing something and no one is doing something to them. What they feel is shame to talk about their carnal desires in public and they feel this because it is considered a form of promiscuity to talk about this in public as they make listeners some kind of participants in the act. Therefore, they consider this promiscuous and wrong causing the honour of people to be attacked and the value of them to be lowered and ultimately corruption of morals. However, if you see no problem with promiscuity in its more direct form, I fail to see why its lesser kind should be problematic to you.

Another less direct form of promiscuity is pornography for example or using video connections to expose the awrah of people as it makes observers more or less participating in this. As far as I can tell, Shi'i scholars have no issue with mut'ah being contracted over the internet. Therefore, using a webcam for example, men and women can then also satisfy their sexual needs. There is no consummation either so women don't have to observe iddah and can switch from one partner to the next in a matter of minutes. Would this also not be problematic to you? This doesn't attack the honour of the participants according to you?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 16, 2018, 02:10:25 AM
You’re obviously not here take part in any serious discussion.

That statement actually fits you and a few others. There's nothing that can be said or done with those who have a mindset. So what ever......
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 16, 2018, 02:14:24 AM
Plenty has been said, but none of it actually addressed the topic at hand.

You can say something related to the topic without engaging in a whole bunch of "whatabouttery."

You can answer any of these questions:

Save me at least if not yourself from the nonsense. Please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of this, that and the other. I can answer but satisfying you completely is not in my hands. But still, fire away one by one if you fancy another shot at it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 16, 2018, 03:03:11 AM
Save me at least if not yourself from the nonsense. Please don't put words in my mouth and accuse me of this, that and the other.

I didn't put words in your mouth.  I accused you of engaging in "whataboutery" which it turned out is actually the wrong term; I should've accused you of "whataboutism"  :o you learn something new everyday

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whataboutism: A propaganda technique where criticisms are deflected by raising corresponding criticisms of the opposite side.

For example, in this thread, we questioned the taboo nature of Mut'ah in the 12er world despite it being considered mustahabb unconditionally and doing it four times supposedly raises the person to the status of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  You and Ibrahim began to respond by raising Misyar and Urfi marriages; i.e. "well what about Misyar marriage?!"  The problem with that is, you are actually admitting that Mut'ah is something taboo to you because you are equating it with something that ranges from makrooh to haram with us.

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I can answer but satisfying you completely is not in my hands.

Answering is something like what I did above.  You had an objection, and I addressed it.  At that point, you can either be satisfied by my answer or not.  You on the other hand hardly ever address anything, and whenever anything you say is refuted, instead of actually addressing it, you just say "its not my fault you can't understand and is fed anti-Shia propaganda."  I am fed it by who?  You as a Shi'a is my source of Shi'asm, not Salafis, not Ash'aris, rather I learn Shi'asm from Shi'is, just like I learn any school from that school itself.  Once you come to accept this, you will realize why what you say hasn't been very convincing.  Once you come to accept that I am not fundamentally evil, that I am not purposefully misunderstanding you, you and I will be to have a real conversation.

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But still, fire away one by one if you fancy another shot at it.

Let's start with question #3: Are there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.

If you can also address the narrations which mention that doing it four times is equal to being on the level of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as I think it's related to the question at hand.  Please answer with your opinon on it, I already know not "to believe everything I read in books" and "not everything any Shi'i Alim said is the belief of Shi'as", what I want is YOUR opinion on these narrations, and how you came to that opinion i.e. did you reject them because of the sanad, because you thought they were Shaadh etc.

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك I think we will finally be able to move along in this discussion...
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 16, 2018, 01:28:57 PM
I didn't put words in your mouth.  I accused you of engaging in "whataboutery" which it turned out is actually the wrong term; I should've accused you of "whataboutism"  :o you learn something new everyday

For example, in this thread, we questioned the taboo nature of Mut'ah in the 12er world despite it being considered mustahabb unconditionally and doing it four times supposedly raises the person to the status of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  You and Ibrahim began to respond by raising Misyar and Urfi marriages; i.e. "well what about Misyar marriage?!"  The problem with that is, you are actually admitting that Mut'ah is something taboo to you because you are equating it with something that ranges from makrooh to haram with us.

Answering is something like what I did above.  You had an objection, and I addressed it.  At that point, you can either be satisfied by my answer or not.  You on the other hand hardly ever address anything, and whenever anything you say is refuted, instead of actually addressing it, you just say "its not my fault you can't understand and is fed anti-Shia propaganda."  I am fed it by who?  You as a Shi'a is my source of Shi'asm, not Salafis, not Ash'aris, rather I learn Shi'asm from Shi'is, just like I learn any school from that school itself.  Once you come to accept this, you will realize why what you say hasn't been very convincing.  Once you come to accept that I am not fundamentally evil, that I am not purposefully misunderstanding you, you and I will be to have a real conversation.

Let's start with question #3: Are there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.

If you can also address the narrations which mention that doing it four times is equal to being on the level of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as I think it's related to the question at hand.  Please answer with your opinon on it, I already know not "to believe everything I read in books" and "not everything any Shi'i Alim said is the belief of Shi'as", what I want is YOUR opinion on these narrations, and how you came to that opinion i.e. did you reject them because of the sanad, because you thought they were Shaadh etc.

بارك الله فيك وأحسن الله إليك I think we will finally be able to move along in this discussion...

You accused me of..... That's ok. We Shias have been accused of a lot of rubbish from day one and none of it has come out to be true.

You questioned the taboo nature of mutah with in the Shia community and I answered in great detail that mutah is not taboo in our community nor is it commonly practiced.

It isn't taboo it's just the low ikhlaq and ill nature of how certain people put the question of mutah forward to us.

When questioned I still responded that it's not something you do or get your women to do or add your women how many times they've done it. But it depends on the need and urge again depending on circumstances, situations and conditions.

The Prophet (s) made it permissible and that's exactly what we stand by.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 16, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
SO......GO ON THEN SHIITE WARRIOR......ICEPOOP.

How did Islam PROSPER coz of Shiites?

You made the claim and now you can’t back it up? That’s shiitism in a nutshell!!😂😂👍👍

Just like you made a false claim Iran doesn’t CO OPERATE with enemies😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Come on icepoop show us your great Shiite bred intellect......if you have any😂😂😂😂

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 16, 2018, 07:03:14 PM
SO......GO ON THEN SHIITE WARRIOR......ICEPOOP.

How did Islam PROSPER coz of Shiites?

You made the claim and now you can’t back it up? That’s shiitism in a nutshell!!😂😂👍👍

Just like you made a false claim Iran doesn’t CO OPERATE with enemies😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Come on icepoop show us your great Shiite bred intellect......if you have any😂😂😂😂

So Khaled, what are you going to say about the smiley faces here? And look at the amount. And to the moderators, the insult from this post alone, never mind the others, any comments? I don't expect any action to be taken😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 16, 2018, 07:27:04 PM
So Khaled, what are you going to say about the smiley faces here? And look at the amount. And to the moderators, the insult from this post alone, never mind the others, any comments? I don't expect any action to be taken😊

Ah yes sorry my bad I meant to write Shiism in a nutshell.wasnt intentional.

But am still waiting for the prosperity SHIISM brought to Islam.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 16, 2018, 07:44:37 PM
The definition and meaning of 'FATWA'.

A fatwā is an Islamic legal pronouncement, issued by an expert in religious law (mufti), pertaining to a specific issue, usually at the request of an individual or judge to resolve an issue where Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), is unclear.

Now I was asked for a Fatwa of Shia Scholar/s in clear wording that Mutah is permissible/allowed only due to exceptional circumstances.

My further argument is why do we need or what is the need for a Fatwa when the ruling is absolutely clear on Mutah that the Prophet (s) made it permissible and reality and facts tell us that Mutah was exercised due to exceptional circumstances. 
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 16, 2018, 11:55:22 PM
So Khaled, what are you going to say about the smiley faces here? And look at the amount. And to the moderators, the insult from this post alone, never mind the others, any comments? I don't expect any action to be taken😊

I personally think he should be banned, I also think Hadrami and Optimus Prime should be warned if not banned as well.

I am with you on this one, these people just distract from the topic and add nothing.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 17, 2018, 01:03:05 AM
You accused me of.....

I accused you of "whataoutism", i.e. when your view is refuted, you respond by saying "what about...?"  When we asked you "how come Mut'ah is so taboo in Twelver circles" you and Ibrahim responded by comparing it to the taboo concept of Misyar and Urfi marriage.  When it was shown to you that these types of marriages are makrooh at best, you were unable to respond.  You went back to quoting the ahadeeth that you think show the permissiblity of Mut'ah.

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That's ok. We Shias have been accused of a lot of rubbish from day one and none of it has come out to be true.

Typical victim mentality that adds nothing to the discussion.  Could you imagine a Muslim debater saying this to a non-Muslim every time someone brings up a misunderstanding of our faith?  We wouldn't be as successful as we have been in our da'wah efforts ولله الحمد.

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You questioned the taboo nature of mutah with in the Shia community and I answered in great detail that mutah is not taboo in our community nor is it commonly practiced.

You did not answer in any detail actually.  However, your defensive nature, couple with your comparing Mut'ah to the unfortunate practice of Misyar and Urfi, add to the constant controversial nature of the topic at Shiachat and pretty anywhere Shi'as exist show that what you are saying is not true.  However, I skipped this question since I knew what kind of answer you would provide.  I actually just went straight to question three.

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It isn't taboo it's just the low ikhlaq and ill nature of how certain people put the question of mutah forward to us.

Was the way I forwarded the question to you with low akhlaq (It's with a hamza with a fatha, akhi) and with ill nature?  I thought this time I was being very cordial with you, بارك الله فيك.

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When questioned I still responded that it's not something you do or get your women to do or add your women how many times they've done it.

It's unfortunate that people have been rude to you about this topic; but you have to understand, they would be rude to a person promoting Urfi or Misyar, and since they consider Mut'ah quite a bit worse (and I'll be honest, so do I) they responded that way.  If you notice, early on in this thread, I called out the guy who compared it to prostitution and asked him to provide any evidence for his claim.  If you notice, he ran away and hasn't been back since.  That's why I don't understand why you keep lumping me in with the rest of them.

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But it depends on the need and urge again depending on circumstances, situations and conditions.

According to who.

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The Prophet (s) made it permissible and that's exactly what we stand by.

Its unfortunate that we are unable to have a real discussion because you are unable to get past this point; we disagree that he "made it permissible" and we discussed that early on.  Unfortunately, like usual, you didn't respond to anything that was brought up to you.  We believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it, and that this was upheld by Ali رضي الله عنه.  This is the CONSENSUS of all the Islamic schools of thought except the Twelver one (including other Shi'a groups).  Just get over this point, and try to stay on topic بارك الله فيك
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 17, 2018, 01:15:33 AM
The definition and meaning of 'FATWA'.

A fatwā is an Islamic legal pronouncement, issued by an expert in religious law (mufti), pertaining to a specific issue, usually at the request of an individual or judge to resolve an issue where Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), is unclear.

جزاكم الله خيرا, that's one definition of a fatwa.

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Now I was asked for a Fatwa of Shia Scholar/s in clear wording that Mutah is permissible/allowed only due to exceptional circumstances.

Yes you were, I imagine this will be very easy and the rest of your response will be just a copy and paste of a fatwa (considering you had the time to look up the word fatwa).  إن شاء الله I will be right this time...

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My further argument is why do we need or what is the need for a Fatwa when the ruling is absolutely clear on Mutah that the Prophet (s) made it permissible and reality and facts tell us that Mutah was exercised due to exceptional circumstances.

*SIGH*

The ruling is absolutely clear, according to everyone who is not part of your sect, that Mut'ah is haraam.  However, as I asked you in the question (which is why you should quote my question instead of just relying on your memory, since you may not address all the points):

Are there any fatwas (you didn't provide any) or ahadeeth (only Sunni ahadeeth show the exceptional circumstances, it's also the source where we get that it is haram, along with Zaydi and Ismaili sources) which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.

I also added this second point so we can finish it in one discussion:

If you can also address the narrations which mention that doing it four times is equal to being on the level of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as I think it's related to the question at hand.  Please answer with your opinion on it, I already know not "to believe everything I read in books" and "not everything any Shi'i Alim said is the belief of Shi'as", what I want is YOUR opinion on these narrations, and how you came to that opinion i.e. did you reject them because of the sanad, because you thought they were Shaadh, is it out of taqleed etc.

بارك الله فيك
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 17, 2018, 01:28:03 AM
Here is a classic thread on Shiachat (not Salafitalk) which shows just how the average (religious) Shi'i views Mut'ah; imagine if we were talking about laymen here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235043315-mutah-is-obligatory-for-most-youth-in-the-west/

Here are some highlights:

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Lastly, if a guy slept with my sister doing Mutah without me or my dad knowing, knock him out. Just saying. If I had a daughter, I'd knock him out too. I don't care who bad the guy cant control his genitals. If he is struggling to the point of sin then he is weak and I wouldn't even want him to marry my sister or daughter. Masturbation is not fixed with marriage, it normally goes hand in hand with porn and is and addiction and a spiritual disease that needs to be gotten rid off before you marry someones sister/daughter.

Notice his reaction.  This is precisely why the trolls on this thread asked you that question; because they know the kind of reaction they would get out of you.  Why do you and other Shi'as react this way?  Because Mut'ah is taboo to you; whether you consciously are aware of it or not.

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Why mutah? Why not just get married permanently? Also, do you apply this theory equally to men and to women? Would communities accept the idea that every woman should have had at least one mutah before she settles down to permanently marry?

Obviously not, which is why it has never been the case throughout Islamic history.

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Yes, it is shameful that Shia communities expect little angels Jafar and Bilal (generic Shia names) to stay away from sin until the age of 28... 15 years without any haram release requires a lot of self control.

Why do you Shi'a communities do this?  Is it because Mut'ah is taboo?  Yet here I was told by you that it isn't taboo.

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I've given a lot of thought to this topic. Mut`a is one of those issues that is not talked about in our communities, and so it is abused, because people do not know the rules. I've heard of young men having mut`a with prostitutes (which is not endorsed by most of our scholars), men having mut`a with women who are under the influence of alcohol (the seegha is invalid if they are drunk), men having mut`a with Muslim girls without their father's permission because "they are not virgins" (according to S. Sistani, you need their father's permission unless they have consummated a halal marriage before), men with Muslim wives who are doing mut`a the Kitabiyyat (Sistani says these men need their wives' permission before doing mut`a with a Kitabiyya), women "switching" maraji` to be considered a rashida by another marja` (switching marja` is a rigorous process that you can't just do on a whim), women not fulfilling the correct `idda length, men "picking up" mut`a wives in haram environments, and men forcing their women to have an abortion after they become pregnant.

Despite the fact that Qa'im goes on to say that this is done because people don't know the "rules," the reality is, people will never know the rules if the practice is by default secret and taboo.  I also wonder where these "rules" came from and why every Marji' has such different opinions on it.  I'm guessing its because there aren't any instructions from the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم or the A'ima عليهم السلام regarding this topic.  So later on, the Maraji' had to come up with rules or else Mut'ah would look like how Qa'im is describing it.

Here is a devestating reply by Abu Hadi (moderator)

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1. Mutah is a huge taboo, even though it is halal and a practical solution for many youths. It is a  reason to be shunned, for our sisters (and to a much lesser extent for our brothers) whether it is done within guidelines of the sharia or not. In most communities, this is irrelevant. In most communities, it is much, much easier to find a partner for zina(haram) than for mutah(halal).

Yet, here I was told the opposite.  Come on akhi, we all have been interacting with the Shi'a community ALL our lives.  You can't just come in here and say something completely false like "Mut'ah is not taboo" in our communities.

I think this has been MORE than enough
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 17, 2018, 04:49:33 AM
Brother Khaled you are still trying to put up a stance based on argument and confrontation but in a friendliest manner. People on this site don't have a good or positive word to say about the Shias. You have been brought up by being told that if you attend the Nimaz e Janaza of a Shia your Nikah will become invalid and lots more. Who are you trying to kid here by telling that you've engaged with Shias all your life. A community that you've been told to stay and keep away from by being told porkies about them, you claim you know so much about them.

No one is angry or aggressive when asked questions. It's the nature, intention and how the question is asked and put forward. It's just to fuel the Shias and get them all emotional. As you've seen that these techniques and tactics haven't worked on fueling me. I am a step ahead and ready and well prepared. I know their game and their intentions. But we shall continue this discussion. It will get more interesting.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 17, 2018, 06:24:01 PM
GreatChineseFall, it's my perception that we've reached a certain degree of mutual understanding and so I'll concentrate on what I believe are the salient issues.

If you find I'm being over-concise or that I've redacted anything you deem to be of abiding importance, feel free to mention it.

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As has been said before, divorce is only disliked without a valid reason. You can not have being in a marriage with a Christian disliked(or even forbidden) and ending a marriage with a Christian also being disliked. That would mean that no matter what you do, you would be doing something that is disliked. This is not possible.

This is what's called a "false dilemma" - it means you've presented only two possibilities when there are in fact more. I will focus on this tendency in this post since I believe it's key to resolving any remaining misunderstanding.

A third option to the above is of course to make temporary marriage with Kitabi women. A fourth option is simply to seek marriage with Muslim women, so the possibility of a disliked situation doesn't arise in the first place.

Furthermore, since Sunni Muslims also hold marriage with Kitabi women to be problematic, makruh or even haraam, this issue ultimately rests no more with me than with you.

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So what about the married men? What if they are away in a Christian country or land with only Christian women. What is the solution to their situation and why can't they contract mut'ah and try to convert them? Why is it only allowed for unmarried men?

To my understanding this relates to the rights of his Muslim wives concerning him marrying a non-Muslim.
The question could equally be asked about a man travelling in a Hindu or Buddhist country. Just because there are certain women a man may not contract mut'ah with, it doesn't negate the overall generous provision Islam has made for him in the fulfilment of his genuine needs.

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Secondly, something I forgot to mention before is the difference in what was allowed and what is currently considered to be allowed. Mut'ah was as I said was permitted under very specific circumstances where the choice was between castration and mut'ah. The same scenario applies to taqiyya for example. Sunni's believe that the circumstances under which it is allowed are very strict and find the concept of taqiyya in Shi'i thought extremely problematic and a license to deceive and lie.

Sunni ahadith present mut'ah in much more general circumstances than you imply. The practical application of mut'ah may encompass the more pressing circumstances, though that's not what it's limited to in your own narrations.

I find your reference to taqiyyah to be extraneous and inaccurate; taqiyyah according to the teachings of Ahl al Bayt(as) is also subject to strict rules.

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No, because as you correctly stated it is "ONE OF THE primary rights" as there are many rights and also many obligations. We can't dissmiss them as peripheral because they are NOT peripheral, it's that simple. In the case of mut'ah, they are peripheral or totally absent and left to the discretion and mutual consent of the two engaged in it. Suffice to say that if one were to marry without stating any conditions, many rights and obligations would solidify due to absence of stating any conditions. Mut'ah on the other hand, if one were to contract that without stating any specific conditions it would result in hardly anything else besides conjugal rights and financial compensation.

I had hoped and expected that you would respond with the above. Yes, I agree that nikah and mut'ah are dissimilar in their social functions, but it's the degree of their disparity which is in question, and your screwdriver analogy indicates that you have a tendency to overstate this.

The use of mut'ah as a non-sexual means for couples to approach nikah and assess compatibility cannot be dismissed. Likewise the use of mut'ah as a source of companionship and financial support for those women who, due to age or situation, find they are unable to attract suitors for permanent marriage.

Your last sentence about mut'ah is actually what many critics say about the Islamic concept of marriage on the whole. The black-and-white language you're employing on this subject needs to give way to a more nuanced outlook, I would suggest.

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Embarrassement or rather shame is intrinsically connnected to the value, stature and honour of a person and one feels shame if their honour is attacked or their stature and value is perceived to be lowered. Basically, embarrassement or shame can be of three types...

This brings us to what I see as the crux of the discussion. Again I will draw reference to restrictive ways of thinking which result in false dilemmas, or a false trilemma in this case.

Surely embarrassment is something which underlies myriad situations, principles and emotions, in such a way as to defy numeration.

To your three types above one can easily add embarrassment elided with empathy when observing others' inabilities, embarrassment elided with humility when we receive an honour which we feel we don't deserve, or embarrassment as a substrate of modesty in the graceful demeanor of the mu'mineen with good akhlaq.
And I'm sure we can add many more.

The kind of embarrassment under discusuon here, that which I have rejected, is the kind of embarrassment some attach to carnal desires whereby sexuality per se, in and of itself, is considered inherently shameful. It is this attitude which is then used to condemn mut'ah, despite the attitude itself being at fault.

This is not to deny that people feel shy to talk about their personal experiences, for the reasons you quite rightly outline. And it certainly isn't to endorse "promiscuity", which you seem to have mistakenly derived from my previous post.

"Promiscuity" describes the indiscriminate sexual behaviour which takes into account no religious rights or boundaries and thus is not at all comparable to mut'ah which is based upon both.
So to clarify, I'm not defending or condoning promiscuity, but rather attempting to point out that there's no need to regard mut'ah in the same way one would regard promiscuity.

If we regard "promiscuity" as the mere access of a man to numerous partners, then would put us in the territory of those who criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws), na'udhubillah.
The chief difference, to my understanding, is whether we engage with those partners according to our own whims, or according to the rules and regulations Allah(swt) has established.

Rather than debating side issues with multiple quotation boxes (a format which I find often generates more heat than light), I believe it's differences in conceptual outlook which are key.

In the webcam question (which is out of my remit to address in the absence of a specific fatwa from a scholar, and which could equally be asked of Sunnis) you appear to want me to respond in a way which demonstrates a lack of moral boundaries. But what makes you so concerned with where my own boundaries lie? After all, I'm a fallible person who can be wrong about anything. Is it not better that we try to find where the Islamic boundaries lie, and then draw our own boundaries in the same place? What makes you sure that your own attitude is in sync with that taught by Islam?

As you will be aware, the general rule in Islam is permissibility in the absence of prohibition, not the other way round.
The main, and perhaps the only issue here as I see it is whether you or anyone else can guarantee that they're looking at this from a purely Islamic perspective, or if it's possible that upbringing, societal influence and personal thoughts are responsible in varying degrees.

I put it to you that from the Islamic perspective, even if you believe mut'ah has been banned, there's no reason to object to it in principle.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 17, 2018, 06:42:35 PM
I will give you an "A" in English but I am afraid you failed your own argument with your inability to (yet again) comment on (the possibility of) mutah being "mustahab" versus misyar being "makrooh".

I don't necessarily agree with the dichotomy you've made, nor do I find a way to respond other than with the views I've already expressed on this thread.

What I will say is that I admire the honesty of your previous response and that I understand why Sunni misyar exists even if you yourself don't approve of it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 18, 2018, 12:18:18 AM
I don't necessarily agree with the dichotomy you've made, nor do I find a way to respond other than with the views I've already expressed on this thread.

It is not a matter of what you agree or disagree with, unless you (or anyone else) can go back and respond to all the Shia narrations I posted encouraging mutah, even claiming that performing it four times can afford one to attain the rank of the Prophet (saw).  Believe me, if you tell me that any or all those narrations are weak, with or without proof, I will take your word for it.  However, I want you and the other brother to speak.  Straight-talk, no fish-tailing.  And sometimes not having a way to respond to what has been said is an answer in itself, albeit another way of dodging the point with no substantial answer.

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What I will say is that I admire the honesty of your previous response and that I understand why Sunni misyar exists even if you yourself don't approve of it.

Contrary to what most Shias might believe, I base most of what I learn about Shias on firsthand experience.  Mostly during Muharram but even outside the month, I frequent three Shia mosques in our area.  And then there is the virtual (online) world.  So I have no reason to hide that I first heard about misyar from Shias.  To help you grasp the irony, which you and Iceman have failed to grasp or are dodging, misyar was brought to my attention in defense of mutah.  People defend mutah but upon the mere mention of performing it with women in their families, or you refer to them as "children of mutah", hell breaks loose.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 18, 2018, 12:49:51 AM
Brother Khaled you are still trying to put up a stance based on argument and confrontation but in a friendliest manner.

Apparently, you are still not willing to actually address anything that has been said...  I am not sure how you want me to discuss this issue with you; do you want me to just accept what you say even though it contradicts everything that I have been taught about 12ers from other 12ers?

I am also not talking to you in a friendly manner, I am talking to you in a brotherly manner.  Like Allah ordered the believers to behave in the Qur'an.

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People on this site don't have a good or positive word to say about the Shias.

Well it is a site refuting 12erism, so by definition it won't be positive in its view of the subject its refuting.  However, there has been plenty of positive things said about certain Shi'as, especially Zaydis, on this site.  What's telling, however, was when I asked you on the other thread to provide ONE actual contribution 12ers have made to this Ummah, you were unable to do it.  Imagine that you, as a 12er, cannot point to ONE positive contribution that your sect has made to Islam; how do you expect those that are not 12ers to feel?

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You have been brought up by being told that if you attend the Nimaz e Janaza of a Shia your Nikah will become invalid and lots more.

No I haven't, I have never ever had such a crazy thing in my life.  I'm not sure, maybe some crazy dude in Pakistan said such a thing; but this isn't the position of any school of thought or any mainstream Muslim scholar I have EVER heard.  I have been brought up that Janazah prayer is fard kifayah on the Muslim community and that if a Muslim (such as a 12er) dies and no one prays Janazah on him, that this is a communal sin that we all incur.  This is my belief, and this is what I was taught.  Your attempt to use what you may have heard from some lunatic and apply it to over 1 BILLION MUSLIMS is simply the result of your constant victim mentality.  Give it up and think about how crazy what you are saying is.  I have never accused you of whatever I have heard from al-Habib and Allahyari, why you continually associate me with the worst people is beyond me.

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Who are you trying to kid here by telling that you've engaged with Shias all your life. A community that you've been told to stay and keep away from by being told porkies about them, you claim you know so much about them.

Who told me to "keep away from them?"  I have been told to keep away from every sect by the other sects, yet I've studied Salafiyyah with Salafis, Ash'ari madhhab with Ash'aris, each madhhab with its own teachers, and I've studied Shi'asm by studying books like al-Mufeed's "Irshad" and by listening to lectures by Kamal al-Haydari.  Here's a positive thing I have to say about 12ers, since you claim no one has anything good to say about them; I have benefited a lot from Kamal al-Haydari's lectures.  I feel like I understand why an intelligent God-fearing person would chose Shi'aism even though it appears so far from the truth to me.

In my college days, around 10% of the MSA was Shi'a, and we used to have a couple of Shi'as from them go and help us each weekend provide a community Iftar for a poor masjid in Los Angeles.  One of the Shi'as was a Lebanese brother who was a good friend of mine, and we used to have conversations about theology all the time.

However, even if everything I am saying is a lie and I have never even seen a Shi'i in all my life (I spent the first 8 years of my life in Kuwait BTW), the fact is, Shiachat is more than enough to give us insight into how the average Shi'i thinks.  That post that I linked to was more than enough to show that you clearly known less about the Shi'i community than I do; at the very least in regards in how it views Mut'ah.  I was wondering what you thought of that thread, بارك الله فيك.

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No one is angry or aggressive when asked questions. It's the nature, intention and how the question is asked and put forward. It's just to fuel the Shias and get them all emotional. As you've seen that these techniques and tactics haven't worked on fueling me.

I don't agree at all to be honest.  That's why I tried to come in to this thread, in hopes of calming you down and hoping to get a good discussion out of you.  I unfortunately feel that that didn't work.

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I am a step ahead and ready and well prepared. I know their game and their intentions. But we shall continue this discussion. It will get more interesting.

Please, please, please, just actually address ONE thing I say to, just quote something and actually respond to it.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 18, 2018, 12:57:18 AM
I just wanted to just summarize some of the discussions we have had so far so we can move on:

1) Mut'ah is mustahabb in the 12er madhhab, unless doing it brings a bad image to the madhhab (Khamimi Fatwa).
2) Mut'ah is undoubtebly taboo in the 12er community with a large percentage of those doing it engaging with prostitutes and women who are drunk (Qa'im from Shiachat's words)
3) There aren't any agreed upon restrictions to the practice of Mut'ah, just the before-mentioned "as long as it doesn't make the madhhab look bad."
4) 12ers use the "whataboutism" argument of "Well, Sunnis have Misyar/Urfi marriages" even though those marriages range from haram to makrooh, and are not anything like Mut'ah anyway.
5) All Muslim sects, including the Shi'i ones, agree that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned Mut'ah and that Ali رضي الله عنه upheld that ban; except 12er Shi'as.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 18, 2018, 06:01:34 AM
SO......GO ON THEN SHIITE WARRIOR......ICEPOOP.

Brother, why would you say such a thing?  It is not befitting of you.  Even if you said it to get a reaction from him or to get a response to the question which has been dodged many times, use of such language is not the way to go about it.  Not to mention, the brother feeds off such behavior.  It gives him a reason to play the victim and possibly go out like a martyr.

Brother Iceman, I apologize on behalf of our brother Mythbuster1.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 18, 2018, 09:22:32 AM
Brother, why would you say such a thing?  It is not befitting of you.  Even if you said it to get a reaction from him or to get a response to the question which has been dodged many times, use of such language is not the way to go about it.  Not to mention, the brother feeds off such behavior.  It gives him a reason to play the victim and possibly go out like a martyr.

Brother Iceman, I apologize on behalf of our brother Mythbuster1.

I did apologise, I went a bit far and am genuinely sorry, i know brothers here are discussing in a good manner, I didn’t even know what it meant and just posted without thinking just coz I thought the name was funny, my mistake, hence I shall refrain from posting nonsense or don’t post at all.

Sorry brother iceman and sorry to the brothers if I derailed the thread.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 18, 2018, 07:18:53 PM
Brother, why would you say such a thing?  It is not befitting of you.  Even if you said it to get a reaction from him or to get a response to the question which has been dodged many times, use of such language is not the way to go about it.  Not to mention, the brother feeds off such behavior.  It gives him a reason to play the victim and possibly go out like a martyr.

Brother Iceman, I apologize on behalf of our brother Mythbuster1.

Ok, lets all calm down. Would you mind putting the question forward that you believe I have dodged or may be it wasn't to your satisfaction.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 19, 2018, 03:20:41 AM
Ok, lets all calm down. Would you mind putting the question forward that you believe I have dodged or may be it wasn't to your satisfaction.

Brother, this discussion started with a question.  Fourteen pages later, you still don't know which question.  Let it be!



I did apologise, I went a bit far and am genuinely sorry, i know brothers here are discussing in a good manner, I didn’t even know what it meant and just posted without thinking just coz I thought the name was funny, my mistake, hence I shall refrain from posting nonsense or don’t post at all.

Sorry brother iceman and sorry to the brothers if I derailed the thread.

I might have missed your apology so I apologize for that.  JazakAllah khair and barakAllahu feek!

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 19, 2018, 08:00:07 PM
Brother, this discussion started with a question.  Fourteen pages later, you still don't know which question.  Let it be!



I might have missed your apology so I apologize for that.  JazakAllah khair and barakAllahu feek!

I have told you that I have answered everything in great depth and in detail. Now if you want to play around rather than pointing out what answer you're not happy with then what can I say.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 19, 2018, 08:12:46 PM
According to Shia jurisprudence (which is also taken from the time of Prophet Muhammad) temporary marriage is allowed. But it does not mean that every one is doing it.

Temporary marriage is a solution to solve the problems not to make problems within the society. Why men and women who are not able to have a permanent marriage should be refrained from the joy of marriage, joy of having children,etc.

The philosophy of temporary marriage is to stop committing sins and to provide the situation for every one to have halal enjoyment.

It is no accepted from a man who has a family and there is no problem in his life to do temporary marriage.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 19, 2018, 08:58:29 PM
I have told you that I have answered everything in great depth and in detail. Now if you want to play around rather than pointing out what answer you're not happy with then what can I say.

Are you willing to concede that Mut'ah is considered taboo in the 12er community; or are you still holding on to that position after what I showed you.  I would love for you to search the words "taboo mut'ah" at Shiachat and see how much more there is.  I was going to post more, but honestly, that one thread by itself and the testimony of Abu Hadi and Qa'im far outweigh your denials (a.k.a. "detailed arguments").

As far as the questions you haven't answered, you haven't answered 3-6 from the questions I posted to you (you haven't even tried), gave a half answer to #1 (purposefully cut out the part that says that Mut'ah is recommended UNLESS IT MAKES THE MADHHAB LOOK BAD), and was show to be completely wrong about #2 as Mut'ah is most definitely taboo in the 12er community.

You keep ignoring my posts, showing that without a doubt, you don't have single answer.  Just like you were unable to provide one positive contribution the 12er Madhhab has made to the Muslim world.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 19, 2018, 10:51:27 PM
I have told you that I have answered everything in great depth and in detail. Now if you want to play around rather than pointing out what answer you're not happy with then what can I say.

Since you insist, I will leave this here.  For the record, I copied this hadith from ShiaChat; it was shared by a Shia member (as a sahih hadith which proves that mutah is legal).

Abdullah bin Umar al-Laithi approached imam Baqir (as) and asked him, "What do you say regarding mut'ah?".  The imam replied, "Allah made it halal in His book, and on the tongue of His Prophet (pbuh), and it is halal till the Day of Judgement".  The man replied, "Someone like you says this!  While Umar made it haram and banned it?".  The imam replied, "Even so".  The man said, "Fear Allah in making halal something made haram by Umar".  The imam said, "You are on your companion's (Umar's) saying, and I follow what the Prophet (pbuh) said.......".  The man accepted what the imam said.  Abdullah ibn Umair asked the imam if he was ok if his women daughters, sisters and cousins did mut'ah.  The imam became agitated when the man mentioned his women.

Maybe these are two narrations lumped as one, partly due to bad punctuation on the part of the user, but we see that the Imam (ra) openly declares that he follows the Prophet (saw), not Umar (ra); so much for Imams (ra) hiding their beliefs out of fear.  In the very next breath, the Imam (ra) is agitated by the mention of his own women performing this recommended "sunnah".  Why?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 20, 2018, 12:26:35 AM
Since you insist, I will leave this here.  For the record, I copied this hadith from ShiaChat; it was shared by a Shia member (as a sahih hadith which proves that mutah is legal).

Abdullah bin Umar al-Laithi approached imam Baqir (as) and asked him, "What do you say regarding mut'ah?".  The imam replied, "Allah made it halal in His book, and on the tongue of His Prophet (pbuh), and it is halal till the Day of Judgement".  The man replied, "Someone like you says this!  While Umar made it haram and banned it?".  The imam replied, "Even so".  The man said, "Fear Allah in making halal something made haram by Umar".  The imam said, "You are on your companion's (Umar's) saying, and I follow what the Prophet (pbuh) said.......".  The man accepted what the imam said.  Abdullah ibn Umair asked the imam if he was ok if his women daughters, sisters and cousins did mut'ah.  The imam became agitated when the man mentioned his women.

Maybe these are two narrations lumped as one, partly due to bad punctuation on the part of the user, but we see that the Imam (ra) openly declares that he follows the Prophet (saw), not Umar (ra); so much for Imams (ra) hiding their beliefs out of fear.  In the very next breath, the Imam (ra) is agitated by the mention of his own women performing this recommended "sunnah".  Why?

Honestly I just don't know what to say to you because you are certainly not there to get to know, learn or be satisfied. Because if you were then the amount of time spent on this thread and the information and explanation given is more than enough to know, learn and understand. But I am going to explain again just for the audience/viewers/readers, the common and average folk, I will explain and only talk on what you have put forward.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on January 20, 2018, 01:30:09 AM

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This is what's called a "false dilemma" - it means you've presented only two possibilities when there are in fact more. I will focus on this tendency in this post since I believe it's key to resolving any remaining misunderstanding.

A third option to the above is of course to make temporary marriage with Kitabi women. A fourth option is simply to seek marriage with Muslim women, so the possibility of a disliked situation doesn't arise in the first place.

Furthermore, since Sunni Muslims also hold marriage with Kitabi women to be problematic, makruh or even haraam, this issue ultimately rests no more with me than with you.
This is not addressing the issue. If I point out that what you believe is problematic, then there is no need to mention cases where it wouldn't be problematic. It is enough if there are cases (which aren't too unusal or fantastical) where it is problematic. A very simple example is if a man in a Christian marriage converts and fears his wife's influence on the children, he can either continue the marriage or divorce her. It can't be that both these options are disliked. He could kill her or himself or find other creative things to do, however when presenting a dilemma I thought it would be clear that only options are discussed from a practical and relevant point of view.

As far as Sunni's are concerned, people in this thread have already stated that divorce is only disliked without a valid reason, so this dilemma would not exist as far as I am concerned, but you keep telling me that divorce is disliked and therefore one can't marry a Christian permanently and divorce her later.

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To my understanding this relates to the rights of his Muslim wives concerning him marrying a non-Muslim.
Proof? How? And why? Because here it starts to get even more confusing for me. When I told you that a permanent marriage with a Christian is forbidden, you told me that it's possible but highly discouraged. However, a temporary marriage is totally fine if you are unmarried. I told you why, you told me, this gives the woman time to learn about Islam and eventually embrace Islam. So far so good.

Then we have married men, they are also as per obligatory precaution(Sistani) not allowed to marry a Christian. In addition, they are absolutely not allowed to temporarily marry a Christian without the consent of the first wife and even with her consent it is not allowed as per obligatory precaution(Sistani). The problem is that normally the first wife can't prevent the husband to marry a second Muslim wife permanently and if she consents there is no problem at all. But the whole idea of temporarily marrying a Christian according to you was to give her time to convert and marry her permanently as a Muslim wife, so how can the first wife stop this, even worse how can it be forbidden even with her consent? Especially if the husband is away from his first wife in a foreign country and especially if he stipulates that no intercourse will place, how can this effect the rights of his first wife?

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Sunni ahadith present mut'ah in much more general circumstances than you imply. The practical application of mut'ah may encompass the more pressing circumstances, though that's not what it's limited to in your own narrations.

Prove the circumstances under which mut'ah was allowed from Sunni books, the permission for mut'ah is succintly summarized in the following narration:
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'Urwa b. Zabair reported that 'Abdullah b. Zubair (Allah be pleased with him) stood up (and delivered an address) in Mecca saying:
Allah has made blind the hearts of some people as He has deprived them of eyesight that they give religious verdict in favour of temporary marriage, while he was alluding to a person (Ibn 'Abbas). Ibn Abbas called him and said: You are an uncouth person, devoid of sense. By my life, Mut'a was practised during the lifetime of the leader of the pious (he meant Allah's Messenger, may peace be upon him), and Ibn Zubair said to him: just do it yourselves, and by Allah, if you do that I will stone you with your stones. Ibn Shihab said. Khalid b. Muhajir b. Saifullah informed me: While I was sitting in the company of a person, a person came to him and he asked for a religious verdict about Mut'a and he permitted him to do it. Ibn Abu 'Amrah al-Ansari (Allah be pleased with him) said to him: Be gentle. It was permitted in- the early days of Islam, (for one) who was driven to it under the stress of necessity just as (the eating of) carrion and the blood and flesh of swine and then Allah intensified (the commands of) His religion and prohibited it (altogether). Ibn Shihab reported: Rabi' b. Sabra told me that his father (Sabra) said: I contracted temporary marriage with a woman of Banu 'Amir for two cloaks during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ; then he forbade us to do Mut'a. Ibn Shihab said: I heard Rabi' b. Sabra narrating it to Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz and I was sitting there.

This was confirmed by even Ibn Abbas

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I had hoped and expected that you would respond with the above. Yes, I agree that nikah and mut'ah are dissimilar in their social functions, but it's the degree of their disparity which is in question, and your screwdriver analogy indicates that you have a tendency to overstate this.

The use of mut'ah as a non-sexual means for couples to approach nikah and assess compatibility cannot be dismissed. Likewise the use of mut'ah as a source of companionship and financial support for those women who, due to age or situation, find they are unable to attract suitors for permanent marriage.

Your last sentence about mut'ah is actually what many critics say about the Islamic concept of marriage on the whole. The black-and-white language you're employing on this subject needs to give way to a more nuanced outlook, I would suggest.

Do you disagree with the last sentence? What rights and obligations are obtained besides these especially if contraceptives are used to prevent pregnancy?

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This brings us to what I see as the crux of the discussion. Again I will draw reference to restrictive ways of thinking which result in false dilemmas, or a false trilemma in this case.

Surely embarrassment is something which underlies myriad situations, principles and emotions, in such a way as to defy numeration.

To your three types above one can easily add embarrassment elided with empathy when observing others' inabilities, embarrassment elided with humility when we receive an honour which we feel we don't deserve, or embarrassment as a substrate of modesty in the graceful demeanor of the mu'mineen with good akhlaq.
And I'm sure we can add many more.

As in the first dilemma, I thought we don't have to bring in options that are simply not practical or relevant in this discussion. Furthermore, not to make this a semantic discussion, I said "rather shame" instead of embarrassment and "basically" to avoid all the more complex details surrounding this as shame is a little bit more restricted and essentially what it is about. None of the examples you provided are relevant here, because they do not apply to the case of mut'ah and none of them are examples of shame anyway. I could have even omitted the first type as it's not really an example of shame either. Also, when I asked "are you ashamed" it was part of a series of questions where I asked whether you see a problem or an issue with the example I provided. Obviously we are talking about possible wrongdoing here.

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The kind of embarrassment under discusuon here, that which I have rejected, is the kind of embarrassment some attach to carnal desires whereby sexuality per se, in and of itself, is considered inherently shameful. It is this attitude which is then used to condemn mut'ah, despite the attitude itself being at fault.

The kind of embarrassment you are talking about simply does not exist in the Muslim world with respect to carnal desires. I don't know where you got this from but I am not aware of a single Muslim who is embarrassed by his desires. It simply does not exist as far as I am aware.

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"Promiscuity" describes the indiscriminate sexual behaviour which takes into account no religious rights or boundaries and thus is not at all comparable to mut'ah which is based upon both.
So to clarify, I'm not defending or condoning promiscuity, but rather attempting to point out that there's no need to regard mut'ah in the same way one would regard promiscuity.

If we regard "promiscuity" as the mere access of a man to numerous partners, then would put us in the territory of those who criticise the marriages of the Holy Prophet(saws), na'udhubillah.
The chief difference, to my understanding, is whether we engage with those partners according to our own whims, or according to the rules and regulations Allah(swt) has established.

None of these definitions of promiscuity are correct, it is not indiscriminate sexual behaviour ignoring religious duties or boundaries nor is it mere access to numerous sexual partners. Again, for the sake of not turning this in a semantic discussion, it doesn't even matter that much. I defined it clearly and asked you a question regarding it. As long as the question is clear then the correct definition is of minor concern.

First of all, I defined casual sex as intercourse for the sole purpose of satisfying sexual needs without any commitment or attachment to the other partner and then I defined promiscuity as frequent casual sex with different partners where you are indifferent on a personal level to the choice of your partner. My question to you regarding this is, does the fact that mut'ah is allowed according to you allow you to be promiscuous and do you have an issue with this?

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In the webcam question (which is out of my remit to address in the absence of a specific fatwa from a scholar, and which could equally be asked of Sunnis) you appear to want me to respond in a way which demonstrates a lack of moral boundaries. But what makes you so concerned with where my own boundaries lie? After all, I'm a fallible person who can be wrong about anything. Is it not better that we try to find where the Islamic boundaries lie, and then draw our own boundaries in the same place? What makes you sure that your own attitude is in sync with that taught by Islam?

As you will be aware, the general rule in Islam is permissibility in the absence of prohibition, not the other way round.
The main, and perhaps the only issue here as I see it is whether you or anyone else can guarantee that they're looking at this from a purely Islamic perspective, or if it's possible that upbringing, societal influence and personal thoughts are responsible in varying degrees.

Obviously if I am asking you I want to know what you think Islamic boundaries are. I don't see how this would issue would exist among Sunni's

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I put it to you that from the Islamic perspective, even if you believe mut'ah has been banned, there's no reason to object to it in principle.
That's simply false and I explained why
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Khaled on January 20, 2018, 01:43:55 AM
Honestly I just don't know what to say to you

You can address the hadeeth he quoted, or any number of posts I have directed to you.  But you and I both know that you've basically given up at this point.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 20, 2018, 01:07:00 PM
GreatChineseFall, I'm travelling abroad in a short while insha'Allah and I don't have enough time for a considered response to your above post.

I'll be back in just under a week insha'Allah and I'll respond then.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: Ibrahim on January 20, 2018, 01:32:21 PM
Muslim720, Out of respect to your earlier request, I looked back to find the ahadith you posted (some time before I joined this thread) only to find them unreferenced.

Is it fair to ask me to comment on unreferenced sources? Suffice to say, there is a consensus among Muslims, Sunni and Shia alike, that the Holy Prophet(saws) is the best of creation, so there's no question of any Muslim reaching his level.

I'm happy to hear of your frequent visits to your local "Shia mosques" (mosques are for Allah(swt), Sunni Muslims can and do pray there too, as I'm sure you're aware).

Why do you do this?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 20, 2018, 01:54:34 PM
You can address the hadeeth he quoted, or any number of posts I have directed to you.  But you and I both know that you've basically given up at this point.

Given up? Satisfying anyone on this site wasn't my intention anyway. That can't be achieved because of the mindset people have. And questions are asked based on that mindset.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 20, 2018, 03:27:39 PM
Lets start from what we agree on and then work towards that disagreement. Mutah was permissible during the Prophet's (s) time. Do we agree on this? If not then let me know and tell me why not. We need to ask ourselves this question, why was Mutah permissible during the Prophet's time (s)? What was the reason and purpose?

All one needs to do is look into history. Was Mutah practised openly and commonly during the Prophet's (s) time or was Mutah made permissible due to those exceptional circumstances and was practised according to certain conditions based on special situations. This is where one needs to start and what one needs to look at.

We (Shia) believe that it was permissible during the Prophet's (s) time and for the same reasons and purpose and that is exceptional circumstances. We do not believe that the Prophet (s) prohibited it and those who do believe in this can't give us any reason or explanation to why it was prohibited.

Qoran and Sunah come first then we have the rulings of Mujtahids in the shape and form of fatwas. If you have a direct order or something is clear and straightforward from Qoran and Sunah then you don't need a fatwa or have to rely on getting one.

As far as Mutah is concerned it was permissible and practiced during the Prophet's (s) time and it was permitted by the Prophet (s) for exceptional circumstances. And for this you don't need a fatwa or a Mujtahid to tell you this. It's there in the Sunah and is part of history.

To be continued.

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 20, 2018, 03:51:20 PM
Now a book written by a Shia Scholar and this, that or the other is written in that book or a fatwa or statement by a Shia Mujtahid or scholar based on their thought, opinion or point of view is below and well below Qoran and Sunah, the saying of Allah and his Messenger (s).

Anything no matter what that collides/goes against, does not fit in with Qoran and Sunah is not acceptable regardless of who and where it's from.

As far as Shia community is concerned and Mutah, question;

why is Mutah mustahab (recommended) within Shia community and when it comes to practicing it is taboo.

To be continued.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 21, 2018, 07:21:32 PM
Honestly I just don't know what to say to you because you are certainly not there to get to know, learn or be satisfied.

I am here neither to learn nor to be satisfied; if that is what you are stuck on, what I just said should satisfy you to get to the point and address it or stay quiet.


Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 21, 2018, 07:38:48 PM
Muslim720, Out of respect to your earlier request, I looked back to find the ahadith you posted (some time before I joined this thread) only to find them unreferenced.

All of them were unreferenced?  Are you sure?

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Is it fair to ask me to comment on unreferenced sources?

They all came with the names of the books in which they are to be found.  Even if you claim these narrations are dubious, erroneous or weak, have you not watched the Shia scholar, deliver a lecture to sisters, in order to encourage mutah?  He also narrates from the Imams (ra) in favor of mutah, with references.  For the sake of uniformity (of text and not including a video), I will not share it here but if you must watch it, let me know.

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Suffice to say, there is a consensus among Muslims, Sunni and Shia alike, that the Holy Prophet(saws) is the best of creation, so there's no question of any Muslim reaching his level.

This is simply not true.  Allow me to share a referenced hadith with you.  By the way, I happen to own small booklets (I purchased at a Shia mosque) containing selected narrations from Usul Al-Kafi so this is referenced.  You wanted to know why I visit Shia mosques, right?

Al Usul
The Book of Divine Proof

A group of our associates - Ahmad ibn Muhammad - al-Husayn ibn Sa'id - Abdullah ibn Bahr - Ibn Muskan - 'Abdu 'r-Rahman ibn Abi 'Abdillah that Muhammad ibn Muslim said: "I heard Abu 'Abdillah (pbuh) say: 'The Imams are of the station of the Messenger of Allah (pbuhahp), except (in) that they are not prophets and (in that) they are not allowed (the same number of) wives which were allowed to the Prophet (pbuhahp).  However, apart from this, they are in it (other matters) of the station of the Messenger of Allah (pbuhahp).' "

So no, there is no "consensus" as per this narration.

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I'm happy to hear of your frequent visits to your local "Shia mosques" (mosques are for Allah(swt), Sunni Muslims can and do pray there too, as I'm sure you're aware).

Why do you do this?

As you said, masaajid are for Allah (swt) and our mosques are just as welcoming.  The reasons why I visit Shia mosques and even pray behind the imams there are two:

1.  It prevents hatred from entering my heart.

2.  I learn about Shiaism first-hand, from Shia learned men themselves.  Tacking on to the point above - whether there is consensus on the Prophet (saw) being the best of mankind - it was at a Shia mosque where the imam told me that anything I know about Allah (swt) [His Attributes, so to speak], the Imams (ra) have the same attributes but a degree lower.  In other words, as he clarified, the Imams (ra) are everything that Allah (swt) is but a degree lower.  And this is the most moderate of the three Shia mosques I visit.....it is listed as a "non-denominational" mosque with more Sunni books (on their shelves) than Shia books.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 21, 2018, 09:26:48 PM
It is said that according to Shia Scholars Mutah is recommended. Ok, first of all we need to look at what 'recommend' means. Lets pick up the dictionary and have a look.

'Put forward (someone or something) with approval as being suitable for a particular purpose or role.'

So the above is the meaning of 'recommend or recommended'. Take and make a note; Something, Mutah for instance, put forward WITH APPROVAL as being SUITABLE for a PARTICULAR PURPOSE or ROLE.

Now where does it say or mean that something is put forward openly, freely and commonly? Where is the free pass and ticket without any circumstances or conditions?

Mutah is put forward with approval as being SUITABLE for a PARTICULAR PURPOSE or ROLE. Plus Mutah is recommended to whom? What, the entire community and to everybody that go and do as you please with it?

Lets stop twisting and turning things to suit our hidden objective and goal. Now the TABOO bit. Mutah is there and recommended to those, not everybody but those who are facing that particular purpose or role (situation or condition).

Now to question a Shia as such;

Non Shia: "What is your opinion on Mutah?

Shia: "It is recommended" Pause!

Now here the non Shia should ask;

"what do you mean by recommended and recommended to whom and for what purpose and reason".

But because the intentions of the non Shia are different and not straight so they will respond or continue as such;

"what about your women, would you recommend Mutah to them or how many times have they done it or you got them to do it".

Jahalat (ignorance) comes in many shapes, forms and faces. Mutah isn't something you do or get to do or make people do. It is not an option or choice. It is there and recommended to those who are facing that particular situation or role.

Understand the Fatwa by asking the Scholar for a thorough meaning and explanation. Do go around taking it out of context and giving it your own meaning and explanation.

Decent and men with Ikhlaq and good manners don't even bring girls and women in to conversations by such intentions and means.

Example just to make my point;
A brother from your community (Ahle Sunah) or a group of men ask you about any unmarried women you have in your near family and then put and throw this straight into your face that they want to marry them and take them away bluntly then how would you feel? What would your response be? After all they're talking and asking about marriage. They're being very straight with you.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 21, 2018, 10:31:22 PM
According to Islam a man or woman have the right to approach and get in touch with each other on the basis of looking and finding a partner for themselves and have the right to talk to each other to see if they're compatible. Despite this certain families do not want any man to approach/get in touch with their females on even such a basis and reason. Or will not allow their women to speak with any male on such grounds.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 22, 2018, 01:39:13 AM
According to Islam a man or woman have the right to approach and get in touch with each other on the basis of looking and finding a partner for themselves and have the right to talk to each other to see if they're compatible. Despite this certain families do not want any man to approach/get in touch with their females on even such a basis and reason. Or will not allow their women to speak with any male on such grounds.

In addition to the above if a man likes and is interested in a woman he will not even personally approach her guardians/representatives himself and ask her hand in marriage since this is seen as an insult and is embarrassing for the female side. In fact the man will get his guardians/representatives to get in touch with hers. There is a moral and decent method and way to ask or question something. Anything beyond and apart from that is seen as an insult and embarrassing.

So the question that is Mutah taboo with in the Shia community? The answer is no. That's what you people think. How many times has my sister or daughter done it or I've got them to do it or would I recommend Mutah to them? The answer to this is simple and straightforward. Mutah is not something you do or get someone to do. It's not an option or choice. It's recommended to those in a particular situation or condition.

If you talk about or enter anyone's respect and honour (females)  then what do you expect? How would you feel about your women (females)? Would you speak and talk about them openly and on forum if asked and questioned?

What is taboo? In the Muslim community a married man goes or even thinks about marrying again and having a second wife is what's taboo. Even it's the Prophet's (s) Sunah you're acting on but it's still taboo.

And Mutah is forbidden because it's prohibited according to you then what about Misyar which is practiced among Sunis? You want to question continuously and constantly but don't want to answer and explain anything yourself?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 22, 2018, 03:32:51 AM
Decent and men with Ikhlaq and good manners don't even bring girls and women in to conversations by such intentions and means.

Thank you for declaring every single Shia supporting mutah ranging from Imams (ra) - although they are innocent of what you ascribe to them - to scholars to laymen (even your own self) indecent and without akhlaq because there is no mutah without girls and women.  Without women, there is no mutah so they have to be brought into the conversation.

The topic was exactly this.  Why would Shias support and encourage mutah but get offended when one approaches them for mutah with their womenfolk?  You have unwillingly exposed the Shia hypocrisy by supporting mutah while declaring such men to be indecent and without akhlaq.

This discussion, I believe, is over because this time, you have given a satisfying response.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 22, 2018, 04:12:36 PM
Thank you for declaring every single Shia supporting mutah ranging from Imams (ra) - although they are innocent of what you ascribe to them - to scholars to laymen (even your own self) indecent and without akhlaq because there is no mutah without girls and women.  Without women, there is no mutah so they have to be brought into the conversation.

The topic was exactly this.  Why would Shias support and encourage mutah but get offended when one approaches them for mutah with their womenfolk?  You have unwillingly exposed the Shia hypocrisy by supporting mutah while declaring such men to be indecent and without akhlaq.

This discussion, I believe, is over because this time, you have given a satisfying response.

What a naive response but I will reply with intellect. You ask a Shia Scholar about Mutah and after his response you directly ask him if he has any close women available so you can do Mutah with them and he gets offended by that and you have a problem with this? Is this what you're trying to say?

Forget about Mutah I'm going to put this forward just to make a point for you to understand what you're saying, you believe in Nikah (Marriage), now if a suni brother asks you that if you've got any close woman like a sister, daughter or niece available for marriage then he would like to take a crack at her how would you feel?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 22, 2018, 04:53:37 PM
Thank you for declaring every single Shia supporting mutah ranging from Imams (ra) - although they are innocent of what you ascribe to them - to scholars to laymen (even your own self) indecent and without akhlaq because there is no mutah without girls and women.  Without women, there is no mutah so they have to be brought into the conversation.

The topic was exactly this.  Why would Shias support and encourage mutah but get offended when one approaches them for mutah with their womenfolk?  You have unwillingly exposed the Shia hypocrisy by supporting mutah while declaring such men to be indecent and without akhlaq.

This discussion, I believe, is over because this time, you have given a satisfying response.

If someone approached you directly and asked if you had any close women available and ready for marriage (nikah) then he's interested, if this was put directly straight into your face then what would your response and feeling be? What would you say to him?

You disregard all other of my points and only comment on what suits you.😀 What are you hesitant of?

Forget about Shia Imams or Scholars, I will ask myself on your behalf to put an end to your mischief and bring you to a dead end.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 23, 2018, 02:09:47 AM
What a naive response but I will reply with intellect.

Intellect or deceit (by trying to straitjacket me with your own scenario)?  After 15 pages, you have finally come to the discussion table, albeit on your own terms as we shall see.

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You ask a Shia Scholar about Mutah and after his response you directly ask him if he has any close women available so you can do Mutah with them and he gets offended by that and you have a problem with this? Is this what you're trying to say?

No, this is what you hope I said.  In other words, you want to strawman my argument and morph it into one of your liking, one you can deal with.

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Forget about Mutah I'm going to put this forward just to make a point for you to understand what you're saying, you believe in Nikah (Marriage), now if a suni brother asks you that if you've got any close woman like a sister, daughter or niece available for marriage then he would like to take a crack at her how would you feel?

If someone approached you directly and asked if you had any close women available and ready for marriage (nikah) then he's interested, if this was put directly straight into your face then what would your response and feeling be? What would you say to him?

You disregard all other of my points and only comment on what suits you.😀 What are you hesitant of?

I have consolidated both your replies in one because they, essentially, are asking the same thing.  First of all, no, I do not have to go to a Shia scholar and ask him if he has a girl in his family for me to take as my wife in a temporary marriage.  You came up with that very convenient scenario to allow yourself some leverage.  And this is straitjacketing.  Instead, lets says, there is a Shia man - we will call him Feroz - who already knows about mutah and all its rules (he does not need to go to a scholar to learn about mutah.....he already knows).  Now why would your scholars, especially the ones who vehemently support and encourage mutah upon the basis that it is sunnah, get offended if Feroz asks for mutah with someone in their families?  WHY?

Secondly, you asked for my response if a Sunni brother were to ask me if I have someone in my family he could marry (or perform nikah) with.  What is wrong with that?  Maybe you were not taught this as a child but the difference between a decent man and a mischievous one is that the former (for the most part) approaches the father, brother or a close relative of the girl with pure intentions; the latter goes directly after the girl.  That is the distinguishing criterion between men and boys.  So if a decent brother, who is upon the deen, were to ask me if I know any girl, of course I would look around to see if there is anyone (in my immediate family or among my relatives) who would be willing to marry him.  Isn't this the way marriages are arranged?  Sometimes through people who know both families (in other words, they are common to both families and serve as a link) or two families that associate with each other see that two of their children are a good match, so they initiate a familial alliance.

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Forget about Shia Imams or Scholars, I will ask myself on your behalf to put an end to your mischief and bring you to a dead end.

Let me show you mischief; see how he is selling the concept of mutah to sisters (this lecture was for sisters).  Do you think he would encourage his own biological sisters to perform mutah?  Would he accept your proposal to commit mutah with his daughter?

Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 23, 2018, 02:46:19 AM
Intellect or deceit (by trying to straitjacket me with your own scenario)?  After 15 pages, you have finally come to the discussion table, albeit on your own terms as we shall see.

No, this is what you hope I said.  In other words, you want to strawman my argument and morph it into one of your liking, one you can deal with.

I have consolidated both your replies in one because they, essentially, are asking the same thing.  First of all, no, I do not have to go to a Shia scholar and ask him if he has a girl in his family for me to take as my wife in a temporary marriage.  You came up with that very convenient scenario to allow yourself some leverage.  And this is straitjacketing.  Instead, lets says, there is a Shia man - we will call him Feroz - who already knows about mutah and all its rules (he does not need to go to a scholar to learn about mutah.....he already knows).  Now why would your scholars, especially the ones who vehemently support and encourage mutah upon the basis that it is sunnah, get offended if Feroz asks for mutah with someone in their families?  WHY?

Secondly, you asked for my response if a Sunni brother were to ask me if I have someone in my family he could marry (or perform nikah) with.  What is wrong with that?  Maybe you were not taught this as a child but the difference between a decent man and a mischievous one is that the former (for the most part) approaches the father, brother or a close relative of the girl with pure intentions; the latter goes directly after the girl.  That is the distinguishing criterion between men and boys.  So if a decent brother, who is upon the deen, were to ask me if I know any girl, of course I would look around to see if there is anyone (in my immediate family or among my relatives) who would be willing to marry him.  Isn't this the way marriages are arranged?  Sometimes through people who know both families (in other words, they are common to both families and serve as a link) or two families that associate with each other see that two of their children are a good match, so they initiate a familial alliance.

Let me show you mischief; see how he is selling the concept of mutah to sisters (this lecture was for sisters).  Do you think he would encourage his own biological sisters to perform mutah?  Would he accept your proposal to commit mutah with his daughter?



You're not interested in what Mutah is, what it's for, why it's for and the circumstances and the reason and purpose it's for. I give you an in depth analysis and explanation which you completely disregard and yapp on continuously about what's wrong with someone (feroz) being recommended Mutah then asking the person who recommends it if he can do Mutah with any of his females or if he knows anyone.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role. You're completely disregarding the definition and meaning and the reason and purpose. Mutah isn't an option or choice. All you're doing is jumping up and down trying to point score which isn't happening or working.

Nobody is selling Mutah and nobody is buying it. It's not something for sale or to be bought. It's not a Sunah or something the Prophet (s) practiced openly and commonly for it to be a Sunah. The Prophet (s) made it permissible and you know why. EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES!

Or if you know any other reason why it was made permissible then go ahead and tell me rather than letting off tantrums.

Arranged Marriages, read the word attached 'ARRANGED'. Arranged by whom? By representatives/Guardians/Elders. Excuse me but you're talking nonsense. In the Muslim community it is embarrassing for the girls side even if the boy or man approaches the family of the girl himself and some even  considered such approach by a male  as an insult. They would say to the male that;

" don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative".

I don't know what world and which generation you're living in.

In schools and colleges Muslim Lads frequently look and stare at girls and men at women in the Muslim community. But when it comes to their sisters or daughters (females) they don't want anyone turning their looks in that direction. You know this type of attitude and hypocrisy exists.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in that particular situation or condition or who face it. Yes Mutah is done with women or girls but Mutah isn't just for men it's for women and girls too. In fact not for men and women or boys and girls but for those who face that situation or condition.

Stop playing around and beating around the bush. Any comment from you on Misyar marriage practiced within Ahle Sunah? Mutah was permissible and then made prohibited according to Sunis but what about Misyar marriage which has got nothing to do with Qoran or Sunah or does it?
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on January 23, 2018, 03:13:24 AM
You're not interested in what Mutah is, what it's for, why it's for and the circumstances and the reason and purpose it's for. I give you an in depth analysis and explanation which you completely disregard and yapp on continuously about what's wrong with someone (feroz) being recommended Mutah then asking the person who recommends it if he can do Mutah with any of his females or if he knows anyone.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role. You're completely disregarding the definition and meaning and the reason and purpose. Mutah isn't an option or choice. All you're doing is jumping up and down trying to point score which isn't happening or working.

Nobody is selling Mutah and nobody is buying it. It's not something for sale or to be bought. It's not a Sunah or something the Prophet (s) practiced openly and commonly for it to be a Sunah. The Prophet (s) made it permissible and you know why. EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES!

Or if you know any other reason why it was made permissible then go ahead and tell me rather than letting off tantrums.

Arranged Marriages, read the word attached 'ARRANGED'. Arranged by whom? By representatives/Guardians/Elders. Excuse me but you're talking nonsense. In the Muslim community it is embarrassing for the girls side even if the boy or man approaches the family of the girl himself and some even  considered such approach by a male  as an insult. They would say to the male that;

" don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative".

I don't know what world and which generation you're living in.

In schools and colleges Muslim Lads frequently look and stare at girls and men at women in the Muslim community. But when it comes to their sisters or daughters (females) they don't want anyone turning their looks in that direction. You know this type of attitude and hypocrisy exists.

Mutah is recommended to those who are in that particular situation or condition or who face it. Yes Mutah is done with women or girls but Mutah isn't just for men it's for women and girls too. In fact not for men and women or boys and girls but for those who face that situation or condition.

Stop playing around and beating around the bush. Any comment from you on Misyar marriage practiced within Ahle Sunah? Mutah was permissible and then made prohibited according to Sunis but what about Misyar marriage which has got nothing to do with Qoran or Sunah or does it?

Prove from your narrations where it says mutah is for exceptional circumstamces.

I’m not interested in your opinion or your lengthy commentary.

Just show us the 12er narrations to prove it!
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 23, 2018, 03:37:15 AM
You're not interested in what Mutah is, what it's for, why it's for and the circumstances and the reason and purpose it's for.

Circumstances?  Please provide proof that mutah is only to be contracted under very special and outstanding circumstances.

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I give you an in depth analysis and explanation which you completely disregard and yapp on continuously

You have zero authority in the Shia world.  If we have missed your credentials, please state them otherwise, stay silent.

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about what's wrong with someone (feroz) being recommended Mutah then asking the person who recommends it if he can do Mutah with any of his females or if he knows anyone.

Yes, what is wrong with approaching someone with the intention to perform an act of sunnah with his sister, daughter or any other family member?  As I said, I do not know of anyone who would be enraged if a brother were to seek his or her approval for nikah (which also is sunnah).  So why this sensitivity towards mutah when your scholars vociferously support and encourage it?

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Mutah is recommended to those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role. You're completely disregarding the definition and meaning and the reason and purpose. Mutah isn't an option or choice. All you're doing is jumping up and down trying to point score which isn't happening or working.

Proof?  As for mutah not being an option or choice, are you (in other words) saying that Shia mosques assess each case (as couples walk in) before the couple is allowed to contract mutah?  That's a first!  Again, in all the narrations quoted which support and encourage mutah, show me one which says that mutah is for "those who are in a particular situation or condition or face a particular scenario or role".

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Nobody is selling Mutah and nobody is buying it.

Not literally but I am sure you are familiar with figures of speech.  To sell the concept of mutah is to say that the speaker (in the video) is trying to gain favor for mutah in the eyes of those present or that he is trying to encourage the listeners to perform mutah, et cetera.

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In the Muslim community it is embarrassing for the girls side even if the boy or man approaches the family of the girl himself and some even  considered such approach by a male  as an insult. They would say to the male that;

" don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative".

Wow, you really shot yourself in the foot with this one.

"Two months after the battle of Badr, i.e., in the month of Zilqa'ad (the 11th month) of 2 A.H., Ali called on Muhammad Mustafa, and said: 'O Messenger of God, you have brought me up as your own child.  You have overwhelmed me with your gifts, your generosity and your kindness.  I owe you everything in my life.  Now I seek one more kindness from you.'

The Apostle understood what Ali was trying to say. His face lighted up in a broad smile, and he bade Ali to wait for a few moments until he obtained his daughter's answer.  He entered the house, told Fatima that Ali was asking for her hand in marriage, and asked her what was her response.  She kept quiet.  He interpreted her silence as her assent, returned to Ali, informed him that his proposal was accepted, and told him to make preparations for the wedding." (source: https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/marriage-fatima-zahra-and-ali-ibn-abi)

Taken from a Shia website, are you telling me that the Muslim community has more gheera than the Prophet (saw)?  Or are you now going to claim the the Prophet (saw) made a mistake (naudhubillah) and instead of chastising Imam Ali (ra) by saying "don't you have amy manners or decency? Get an elder or guardian and put them forward as a representative" (your exact words) he (saw) okayed the marriage?  Or will you concede that Imam Ali (ra) was insolent (naudhubillah) to have approached the Prophet (saw) directly without sending any elders?  Way to prove that Imam Ali (ra) did not "have any manners or decency".

And do not dare give me the nonsensical argument that Imam Ali's (ra) parents were not present or anything of that sort.  If no one else (I do not know my history that well), we know Abbas (ra) was alive so Imam Ali (ra) could have sent him.

All throughout this discussion, especially this last point you made, your mouth has been writing checks your @$$ cannot cash.  I apologize for the harsh language but enough is enough.

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In schools and colleges Muslim Lads frequently look and stare at girls and men at women in the Muslim community. But when it comes to their sisters or daughters (females) they don't want anyone turning their looks in that direction. You know this type of attitude and hypocrisy exists.

The bigger hypocrisy is when you have scholars encourage something for the sons and daughters of the ummah but they jump out of their chairs, as if sitting on a bed of burning coals, when the same is suggested for their daughters.

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Mutah is recommended to those who are in that particular situation or condition or who face it.

Proof?

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Stop playing around and beating around the bush. Any comment from you on Misyar marriage practiced within Ahle Sunah? Mutah was permissible and then made prohibited according to Sunis but what about Misyar marriage which has got nothing to do with Qoran or Sunah or does it?

Misyar does not come with an expiration date or time so right off the bat, fallacy of false equivalence.  Also, there is not a single scholar who encourages misyar or has narrated from Jibrail (as) that performing misyar earns Allah's (swt) forgiveness.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: muslim720 on January 23, 2018, 10:23:56 AM
It's not a Sunah or something the Prophet (s) practiced openly and commonly for it to be a Sunah. The Prophet (s) made it permissible and you know why. EXCEPTIONAL CIRCUMSTANCES!

As-Saduq declared it a sunnah (in fact, a habit) of the Prophet (saw) in the following hadith:

[ 26389 ] 2 ـ قال الصدوق : وقال الصادق ( عليه السلام ) : اني لاكره للرجل أن يموت وقد بقيت عليه خلة من خلال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) لم يأتها ، فقلت : فهل تمتع رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) ؟ قال : نعم وقرأ هذه الآية : ( وإذ أسر النبي إلى بعض أزواجه حديثا ـ إلى قوله : ـ ثيبات وأبكارا ) .

2 – As-Saduq said: As-Sadiq عليه السلام said: I dislike that the man should die and there remain upon him a habit from the habits of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله which he has not carried out.  So I said: So did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله do mut`a?  He said: Yes, and he recited this verse “And when the Prophet disclosed a matter to one of his wives” – until His saying – “previously married and virgins.” (66:3-5)

Here is another narration declaring mutah to be sunnah.

[ 26398 ] 11 ـ وبالاسناد عن ابن عيسى ، عن ابن الحجاج ، عن العلا ، عن محمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال لي : تمتعت ؟ قلت : لا ، قال : لا تخرج من الدنيا حتى تحيي السنة .

11 – And by the isnad from Ibn `Isa from Ibn al-Hajjaj from al-`Ala from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: He said to me: Have you done mut`a?  I said: No.  He said: Do not leave the world until you have revived the Sunna.

[ 26393 ] 6 ـ وفي ( الخصال ) : عن أبيه ، عن سعد ، عن حماد بن يعلى بن حماد ، عن أبيه ، عن حماد بن عيسى ، عن حريز بن عبدالله ، عن زرارة بن أعين ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) قال : لهو المؤمن في ثلاثة أشياء : التمتع بالنساء ومفاكهة الاخوان ، والصلاة بالليل .

6 – And in al-Khisal from his father from Sa`d from Hammad b. Ya`la b. Hammad from his father from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz b. `Abdillah from Zurara b. A`yan from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.  He said: The amusement (lahw) of the believer is in three things: Mut`a with women and joking with brethren and salat at night.

Still want to preach that mutah is for those with exceptional circumstances?

All narrations were borrowed from brother Ebn Hussein's research (source: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/ibn-abbas-belief-of-mut'ah-vs-the-rafidi-belief-of-mut'ah-learn-the-difference/)

In conclusion, please address the following points:

1.  Does the Muslim community have more gheera than the Prophet (saw)?

2.  Was Imam Ali (ra) indecent and without manners for directly asking the Prophet (saw) for the hand of Fatima (ra)?

3.  Do you still deny that mutah was sunnah?

4.  And where is your proof that mutah is for those with exceptional circumstances?  On the contrary, your own hadith says it is for amusement.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on January 23, 2018, 11:05:48 AM
^

I thought Twelvers would be so proud of performing Mut'ah, especially since in their minds it was 'Umar (RAA) who forbade it and they are thus 'reviving a dormant Sunnah abolished by usurpers' - this is in fact what is mentioned in one of their modern works. The defensiveness thus seems out of place.
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 23, 2018, 05:52:19 PM
^

I thought Twelvers would be so proud of performing Mut'ah, especially since in their minds it was 'Umar (RAA) who forbade it and they are thus 'reviving a dormant Sunnah abolished by usurpers' - this is in fact what is mentioned in one of their modern works. The defensiveness thus seems out of place.

Like I said before that you and certain others, your aim is to look for things then take them out of context and blow them out of proportion just to make Shiaism and the Shias look bad. And this is exactly what this😊 website is created for. I've got nothing else to say to you. 😕
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 23, 2018, 06:08:29 PM
I'm not here to dig dirt on the Ahle Sunah or to make anyone look bad. My aim is to unveil the mischief certain people create and to clear the misconception and put thing back into context. 😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on January 23, 2018, 08:05:37 PM
Like I said before that you and certain others, your aim is to look for things then take them out of context and blow them out of proportion just to make Shiaism and the Shias look bad. And this is exactly what this😊 website is created for. I've got nothing else to say to you. 😕

There was nothing blown out of proportion nor taken out of context, only the fact that Shias very clearly mentioned the purpose of aggrandizing Mut'ah as a way to get back at 'Umar (RAA), yet they betrayed their own putative declarations.

Anyway, seems with all the defensiveness of the Twelvers that 'Umar (RAA) did win this round of battle after all against the Shias and their "Ahl ul Bayt". 😊
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: iceman on January 24, 2018, 04:15:43 AM
There was nothing blown out of proportion nor taken out of context, only the fact that Shias very clearly mentioned the purpose of aggrandizing Mut'ah as a way to get back at 'Umar (RAA), yet they betrayed their own putative declarations.

Anyway, seems with all the defensiveness of the Twelvers that 'Umar (RAA) did win this round of battle after all against the Shias and their "Ahl ul Bayt". 😊

Well in that case hurray to you and your hero 😀 Have one on me.👍
Title: Re: Is Mutah Really Halal For Shia?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on January 24, 2018, 04:46:04 AM
Brother muslim720 had already mentioned this Twelver narration in the last page:

11 – And by the isnad from Ibn `Isa from Ibn al-Hajjaj from al-`Ala from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: He said to me: Have you done mut`a?  I said: No.  He said: Do not leave the world until you have revived the Sunna.


For those interested, they can see that narrations like the above are not isolated; the following quote from the Shiapen site (http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/mutah/refuting-the-argument-that-mutah-is-immoral-part-ii.html (http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/mutah/refuting-the-argument-that-mutah-is-immoral-part-ii.html)) when trying to explain another narration on the practitioners of Mutah being in the rank of the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) on Qiyamah bears on this matter:

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One should bear in mind that Mut’ah was something allowed in Islam due to it being a Sunnah of Rasulullah (s) that Umar had sought to exterminate. As Mut’ah was pursuant to the Sunnah of the Prophet (s), one can not from works rendered by scholars that any attempt reinstate an act permissible in Islam that has gradually eroded due to customs of and individual(s) or masses is a commendable act, so much so that the reward for an individual that re-introduces or revives a dead Sunnah is he shall be in Rasulullah’s midst / rank on the Day of Judgment.  This is clearly proven from the hadith in Jama al Tirmidhi, Bab al Ulum page 92 [Printed in Deoband]:

Rasulullah (s) stated: ‘Whoever revives my Sunnah, has revived me, whoever revives me shall be in Paradise with me”

This is the reward for reviving a dead Sunnah: that such a person will be in the midst of where Rasulullah (s) resides on the Day of Judgment.


The attempt was made by the Shiapen to discredit the narration in the earlier part of their reply, but in the above they have corroborated its signification. In any case, the point stands: This is viewed this as a Sunnah that was abolished by an "usurper" like 'Umar (RAA), and the reward for performing it and reviving it is enormous. That the issue is treated in a taboo nature and Twelvers continue to be zigzagging in their positions when confronted even slightly is a big clue as to what is really going on in their midst.