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How did Al-Hussain save Islam?

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Hani

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2017, 12:28:29 AM »
First of all, let me give you our (i.e. Shia) understanding of the Infallibles (a.s) so that it may be easy to understand what does it mean when we Shias say that our Aimmah (a.s) saved Islam.

- We Shias believe that Infallibles (a.s) are superior to fallibles.

By this I mean that an Infallible (a.s) stays in his home locked in his room and at the same time there are groups of Muslims. One group of Muslims is busy in their daily worship i.e. they are known for their excessively offering Salat and observing of fasts and simple living that their bodies have become very lean and thin, another group is known for giving excessive amounts of Zakat and Charities and performing many Hajjs as well as excessively helping poor people, third group of Muslims is busy day & night in giving Dawat of Islam to non-Muslims, fourth group is busy fighting enemies of Islam and spreading Islam across the globe by conquering their lands and imposing Shariah on those lands. Yet we Shias would still consider that Infallible (a.s) to be above and superior to all groups of Muslims

- We Shias believe that All actions of all Infallibles (a.s) save Islam

Actions of all Infallibles (a.s) save Islam but their actions may differ. For e.g.

01. Imam Ali (a.s) felt sad that he wasn't consulted when the matter of Caliphate was being decided because he felt he had a share in the matter due to his kinship with the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.w), but that it had been decided without consulting him, and he was upset with that. However he did not listen to any malicious & evil-minded individual to rebel against Abu Bakr and snatch Caliphate away from him. Imam Ali (a.s) remained patient and thus saved Islam by avoiding any conflict and discord within Muslim Ummah which would had led to Great Fitna and Fasad.

02. Imam Hassan (a.s) made peace treaty with Muawiyah and saved Islam by reconciling two great groups of Muslims.

03. Imam Hussain (a.s) saved Islam by sacrificing his (a.s) life and lives of his family (a.s) in land of Karbala and did not pledge oath of allegiance to Yazid.

04. Imam Ali (a.s) ibn Hussain (a.s) and other Aimmah (a.s) saved Islam by not rebelling against rulers of their time and thus avoiding conflict and discord within Muslim Ummah.

05. Our Present Imam (a.s) is in Ghaybat and is saving Islam.


You may disagree with the views given above and find them illogical, irrational, weird and/or nonsensical but this is what we believe.

I believe people can not thrust or force their beliefs on others belaboring their minds to try to make them accept their point of view. It is better to have a dialogue in respectful manner without insulting others as insulting and being disrespectful to others would lead to pointless arguments. Pointless arguments have nothing to do with subject matter and everything to do with the other person. Opposing views should be tolerated with respect.

You said: "You may disagree with the views given above" I say: It's not that I disagree, it's that NO ANSWER WAS GIVEN. You just described what happened, you never answered.

Look, all you did was say the following:
"Imam Hussain (a.s) saved Islam by sacrificing his (a.s) life and lives of his family (a.s) in land of Karbala and did not pledge oath of allegiance to Yazid."

This isn't an answer, you just restated the fact: "He rebelled", "He got himself and his family killed", "He didn't pledge allegiance".

From the above you jump to the conclusion that Islam was saved, I fail to see how Islam was saved by any of the above.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

wannabe

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2017, 04:56:56 AM »

it saves islam from being a slave to yazid and all following ruling kings of islam after him.
the reality is that, after the event of karbala, political power no longer represents religious authority.
I just thought i'd make a point...

At least you gave simple one paragraph answer.
Problem with your answer is that according to your logic either the first 3 caliphs were good rulers, as was muawiya, or Ali, Hasan & Husayn were slaves to these rulers.
salam bro
with due respect, it's none of the above. i believe, there r other possibilities as well.
if imam hussein didn't rise up (rebel is not the right word to be used), the possibility of replacing azan with a ringing bell, as an example,  is there.
i'm fully aware, this might sound outrageous to some. but to each is his own.
in today's chaotic islamic world, it's more peaceful .....
[Shakir 42:15] .....we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: Allah will gather us together, and to Him is the return.

Hadrami

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2017, 11:23:09 AM »
salam bro
with due respect, it's none of the above. i believe, there r other possibilities as well.
if imam hussein didn't rise up (rebel is not the right word to be used), the possibility of replacing azan with a ringing bell, as an example,  is there.
i'm fully aware, this might sound outrageous to some. but to each is his own.
in today's chaotic islamic world, it's more peaceful .....
[Shakir 42:15] .....we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: Allah will gather us together, and to Him is the return.
you do know the only ritual of ringing of bells, trumpets etc and call it islamic are only done by shias, not majority of muslim. Ironically during ashura.

Ijtaba

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2017, 02:59:33 PM »
I guess your standards of what one must do to save Islam are pretty low...

I expected more from you Ijtaba.

Kindly enlighten me what must one do to save Islam which would be considered as high standards?

Imam Ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2017, 01:35:22 AM »
Just like the son of Zubayr & grandson of Abu Bakr, Abullah Ibn Zubayr, Husayn was brave. He sacrificied his life for a cause. It was a noble cause. However, like ibn Zubayr's martydrom, it did not save Islam.
Islam never even perished. A bad ruler doesn't wipe out Islam. If that was the case then the absent 12th Imam is the worst ruler ever & rather than this absent Imam saving Islam we need a Husayn today to save Islam from this ruler today.

Give me a bad ruler who instills some order in the lands over an absent useless leader in hiding.

Lets get a concise short summary of where we are upto here on how Husayn saved Islam.

So far I can only see:

He fought evil an evil ruler but that ruler still remained in power.
This is very noble & husayn no doubt acheived his status as the youth shaheed of paradise.
But fighting an evil ruler does not answer how he saved Islam.

Carry on running around in circles and beating around the bush. YA HUSSEIN!

Nah! YA ALLAH!!

Allah says in the Qur'an to call upon HIM, and no one else.

Understand?

Farid

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2017, 02:08:00 AM »
Kindly enlighten me what must one do to save Islam which would be considered as high standards?

What one must do to save Islam? I don't believe in such a scenario in which Islam needs to be saved today. Islam is widespread and a fifth of the world is Muslim.  Islam was truly under threat in the first years in Makkah up until the Battle of Badr. It grew exponentially after that.

I'm still disappointed by you saying, "Our Present Imam (a.s) is in Ghaybat and is saving Islam." Actually, your Mahdi is destroying Islam. Billions of Sunnis are inevitably going to hell because he refuses to come out and spread his message. Again, I expected more from you.

Farid

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2017, 02:09:29 AM »


Imam Ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2017, 02:57:49 AM »
Who agrees, if Yazid was genuinely going to change the shariah, that the Sahabas would have rebelled heavily?

It's one thing allowing to be a prick to be leader of the Muslim Ummah who is known for his antics, but considering how the Sahabas were willing to lay their lives on the line to preserve the shariah, would have stopped up, if Yazid was going to make theological changes?

Shias keep barking, how Yazid would have done x, y, and z.

HELLO? He was STILL in power after Hussain (RA) was martyred . He STILL could have made changes, but didn't.

Imam Ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2017, 02:58:34 AM »
Who agrees, if Yazid was genuinely going to change the shariah, that the Sahabas would have rebelled heavily?

It's one thing allowing to be a prick to be leader of the Muslim Ummah who is known for his antics, but considering how the Sahabas were willing to lay their lives on the line to preserve the shariah, would have stopped up, if Yazid was going to make theological changes?

Shias keep barking, how Yazid would have done x, y, and z.

HELLO? He was STILL in power after Hussain (RA) was martyred . He STILL could have made changes, but didn't.

Thus, Hussain did NOT save Islam.

wannabe

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2017, 06:05:13 AM »
Kindly enlighten me what must one do to save Islam which would be considered as high standards?
salam bro
i'm not a shia. but i would like to think, i do have a thinking brain. so it's kinda stupid (at least, it is to me) for muslims of today, to kill each other, for something that happened 1400 years ago.

muawiyyah has done his bit to disconfigure islam but he definitely failed to obliterate azan from being proclaimed daily, 5 times. this observation is based on
"....But look at Ibn Abi Kabasha.  His name is called out five times every day and the Muezzin screams from every mosque, “I witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” Now after his success what else remains to be done and what good deed could be remembered?",
What the father could not do, the task is left for the son.
thus what imam ali bin hussein said "this is the way islam was saved" when muazzin called out the azan, makes sense to me. :)
fi amaanillah.

Ijtaba

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2017, 10:52:47 AM »
You said: "You may disagree with the views given above" I say: It's not that I disagree, it's that NO ANSWER WAS GIVEN. You just described what happened, you never answered.

Look, all you did was say the following:
"Imam Hussain (a.s) saved Islam by sacrificing his (a.s) life and lives of his family (a.s) in land of Karbala and did not pledge oath of allegiance to Yazid."

This isn't an answer, you just restated the fact: "He rebelled", "He got himself and his family killed", "He didn't pledge allegiance".

From the above you jump to the conclusion that Islam was saved, I fail to see how Islam was saved by any of the above.

We have different understanding of same event i.e. Karbala. I believe that if Imam Hussain (a.s) ibn Ali (a.s) had pledged allegiance to Yazid then Yazid would had become Caliph having credible authority in the eyes of people. As we shias believe that Yazid did not believe in the Prophethood of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) nor in Holy Quran as being Revelation from ALLAH (SWT) but he believed that this was all plot made by Banu Hashims to establish their monarchy in the land. Eventually Yazid would had altered the Islam in such a way that it would had been totally different from Islam brought by Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

We shias also believe that Yazid wanted to take revenge from Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and to avenge his grandfather ‘Utbah, his grandfather’s brother Shaybah and his maternal uncle al-Waleed ibn ‘Utbah and others who were killed by the companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.w) by ‘Ali (a.s) ibn Abi Taalib (a.s) and others on the day of Badr and in other battles. A person who had so much hatred in his heart would do anything to completely annihilate Islam that nothing of Islam would had been left but just its name.

These are my views. I don't know what I have stated above is authentic according Ahlul Sunnah or not but this is the reason why we Shias say that Imam Hussain (a.s) ibn Ali (a.s) saved Islam by not giving credibility to Yazid's Caliphate (by avoiding to give pledge of allegiance).

*Some post-Karbala events under rulership of Yazid such as Battle of al-Harrah and the Kaaba being bombarded with stones does give some credibility to what I have stated above regarding Yazid's contempt for Islam. 

Ijtaba

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2017, 11:06:34 AM »
What one must do to save Islam? I don't believe in such a scenario in which Islam needs to be saved today. Islam is widespread and a fifth of the world is Muslim.  Islam was truly under threat in the first years in Makkah up until the Battle of Badr. It grew exponentially after that.

I'm still disappointed by you saying, "Our Present Imam (a.s) is in Ghaybat and is saving Islam." Actually, your Mahdi is destroying Islam. Billions of Sunnis are inevitably going to hell because he refuses to come out and spread his message. Again, I expected more from you.

I can only say that we have different viewpoint regarding Imam Mehdi's (a.s) saving Islam in his (a.s) Ghaybat.

Farid

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2017, 11:31:19 AM »
^ Of course you do. You believe that the world would collapse without Al Mahdi. Stick around, inshallah I will one day show you how this belief didn't even exist in Shiasm but is part of the evolved 12er faith, though that's another topic for another time.

Abu Muhammad

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2017, 04:56:49 PM »
^ Of course you do. You believe that the world would collapse without Al Mahdi. Stick around, inshallah I will one day show you how this belief didn't even exist in Shiasm but is part of the evolved 12er faith, though that's another topic for another time.

Eagerly anticipating the write-up...

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2017, 11:07:55 AM »
Who agrees, if Yazid was genuinely going to change the shariah, that the Sahabas would have rebelled heavily?

It's one thing allowing to be a prick to be leader of the Muslim Ummah who is known for his antics, but considering how the Sahabas were willing to lay their lives on the line to preserve the shariah, would have stopped up, if Yazid was going to make theological changes?

Shias keep barking, how Yazid would have done x, y, and z.

HELLO? He was STILL in power after Hussain (RA) was martyred . He STILL could have made changes, but didn't.

The Sahaba of the time were too frightened and very afraid to take on Yazeed. They started to accept and give baya to Yazeed otherwise they would have lost their heads.Read history before talking.

The Sahaba didn't even bother to join the army of Osama on the orders of the Prophet (s) and you talk about them rebelling against Yazeed if he actually did bring about changes in Sharia?

After Hussein was martyred Yazeed's downfall began. The legitimacy he needed for governance was gone. And people started to turn against him. His own relatives and friends, even his own wife turned against him. Read history.

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2017, 11:14:17 AM »
^ Of course you do. You believe that the world would collapse without Al Mahdi. Stick around, inshallah I will one day show you how this belief didn't even exist in Shiasm but is part of the evolved 12er faith, though that's another topic for another time.

If that is true and the case then why don't you start giving lectures about Sunism? What is the foundation and what are the principles and how does one become a Suni and then which Suni? Is it that easy? If it was then I don't think you would be spending so much time on Shiaism.  :)

Ijtaba

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2017, 11:34:16 AM »
^ Of course you do. You believe that the world would collapse without Al Mahdi. Stick around, inshallah I will one day show you how this belief didn't even exist in Shiasm but is part of the evolved 12er faith, though that's another topic for another time.

Sure. I am interested in learning new things.

MuslimK

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Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2017, 12:28:42 PM »
Seems like the statement "Hussain saved Islam" came out of nowhere centuries after Hussain's martyrdom. The people f his age didn't make this claim. 
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2017, 01:12:48 PM »
Seems like the statement "Hussain saved Islam" came out of nowhere centuries after Hussain's martyrdom. The people f his age didn't make this claim.

The people of his age either didn't bother or didn't care or gave baya to Yazeed or were too frightened to stand up to him. The people of Madina and Kufa let him down. The people of Madina hid behind excuses and advices and the people of Kufa were persecuted and terrorised.

 

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