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6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb

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Rationalist

6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« on: February 16, 2015, 06:25:40 AM »
 I was reading the biography of the 6th Imam by a PhD author named  Mohammed Raza Dungersi.  Since the 12er had a PhD I figured I might gain some knowledge on the 6th Imam. However, after I starting reading the intro  I came across this attribution on Imam Jafar bin Muhammad (as):



It is reported that when Imam Sadiq (a.s) was still in his mother's womb, he used to communicate with her.
According to Allama Majlisi Imam Jafar looked at the sky read the Kalima and called out the names of all the Imams before him. (A Brief Biography of Imam Jafar bin Muhammad (a.s.) Pg 4)


After reading this attribution the only defense for the 12ers I can think of is that this book was made for the  esoteric (khassa) group and not for the exoteric (Ammi) group.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 06:29:05 AM by Rationalist »

Hani

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2015, 10:45:43 PM »
Cuz they're great n all, you know..
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2015, 01:34:08 AM »
I was reading the biography of the 6th Imam by a PhD author named  Mohammed Raza Dungersi.  Since the 12er had a PhD I figured I might gain some knowledge on the 6th Imam. However, after I starting reading the intro  I came across this attribution on Imam Jafar bin Muhammad (as):



It is reported that when Imam Sadiq (a.s) was still in his mother's womb, he used to communicate with her.
According to Allama Majlisi Imam Jafar looked at the sky read the Kalima and called out the names of all the Imams before him. (A Brief Biography of Imam Jafar bin Muhammad (a.s.) Pg 4)


After reading this attribution the only defense for the 12ers I can think of is that this book was made for the  esoteric (khassa) group and not for the exoteric (Ammi) group.

And what exactly is your point here??? Allah can create Adam from clay and water, he can make Mariam pregnant with out going near a man, the last Prophet (pbuh) said that he was a Messenger even when Adam was being created, so what seems to be the problem here???




Rationalist

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 02:18:34 AM »

And what exactly is your point here??? Allah can create Adam from clay and water, he can make Mariam pregnant with out going near a man, the last Prophet (pbuh) said that he was a Messenger even when Adam was being created, so what seems to be the problem here???


The issue is these miracles were performed to show people the signs of divine light. Whereas for 12ers and the miracles which are attributed to their Imams they are the only narrators of it. On top of that if these Imam had those powers, why did they have to do taqiyyah ?



[/quote]

Ameen

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2015, 11:34:53 PM »

And what exactly is your point here??? Allah can create Adam from clay and water, he can make Mariam pregnant with out going near a man, the last Prophet (pbuh) said that he was a Messenger even when Adam was being created, so what seems to be the problem here???


The issue is these miracles were performed to show people the signs of divine light. Whereas for 12ers and the miracles which are attributed to their Imams they are the only narrators of it. On top of that if these Imam had those powers, why did they have to do taqiyyah ?



[/quote]

What ever news came from Allah was the only news at that time. So if the Imams are the only narrators so were the Messengers and Prophets of that time. So what seems to be the problem here???

We believe that everything will be confirmed and out in the open in black and white by Jesus (as) when the time is right by Allah.

People who need confirmation will get confirmation. Every time something came from Ghaib  there were those who were suspicious and doubtful just like you.

Jesus (as) is their to witness Al Mahdi and testify that he is Khalifatulllah and Imam of the time. Just wait for it.













Rationalist

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 02:24:33 AM »


What ever news came from Allah was the only news at that time. So if the Imams are the only narrators so were the Messengers and Prophets of that time. So what seems to be the problem here???
The problem is your sect is saying there are only 12 Imams from the household. I don't agree. Many other descendants of Fatima (sa) claimed Imamate and narrated ahadith from the household.
Quote
We believe that everything will be confirmed and out in the open in black and white by Jesus (as) when the time is right by Allah.
Really ? I thought according to your belief this was supposed to be done during the Mahdi's time.

Quote
People who need confirmation will get confirmation. Every time something came from Ghaib  there were those who were suspicious and doubtful just like you.
Are you doing takfir against me ?
Quote
Jesus (as) is their to witness Al Mahdi and testify that he is Khalifatulllah and Imam of the time. Just wait for it.
Why is waiting for him supposed to be  part of our aqeeda? There were many scholars who are Mahdis and they did the work of the Mahdi too.
Take this ahadith for example.

Ahmad b. Idris from Muhammad b. Ahmad from al-`Abbas b. Ma`ruf from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Hanan b. Sadir.  He said: I asked Abu Ja`far  about Ibn al-Hanafiyya, was he an Imam?  He said: No, rather he was a Mahdi. (al-Imama wa 't-Tabsira)













Ameen

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 11:04:25 PM »
Our sect didn't say there were only twelve, it's the Prophet's (pbuh) hadith about the twelve Khalis, Imams, leaders etc and it's in your authentic books. The Ahle Sunnah are also twelvers and they believe five have been and seven have yet to come till the end of time. They do not believe in the continious leadership of the twelve.

Am I doing Takfeer on you??? LOL. First it was Takfeer on Sahaba and now it is Takfeer on you. What next???

There is no such thing as Takfeer on you, the Sahaba and anyone else. As far as Shirk and Kufr is concerned, you don't have to go very far, take a look on this site, who is accusing who of what.

Well if those who don't believe in Mahdi (as) as the 12th and final Imam and those who don't believe in him being Hujjatullah and Khalifatullah then Jesus (as), who people do believe in, will confirm this.

This will be the evidence along with Hazrath Khizar for those who want solid proof. If people still continue to challenge Jesus (as) on this or still be arrogant and ignorant over the matter then it's down to then.

If you have a better ideology than this, which is more understanding and fits in well then, please do bring it forward.


















Rationalist

Re: 6th Imam Communicated with His Mother While He Was In Her Womb
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2015, 03:09:00 AM »
Our sect didn't say there were only twelve, it's the Prophet's (pbuh) hadith about the twelve Khalis, Imams, leaders etc and it's in your authentic books. The Ahle Sunnah are also twelvers and they believe five have been and seven have yet to come till the end of time. They do not believe in the continious leadership of the twelve.
The ahadith is not a mutawatir. Also, there is no ijma on it for the entire ummah on it. Many sects do not have it in their own books. In fact, even the 12 Imams never told the public they are 12 Calipah according to this narration. Supposedly only in your books they secretly told the followers that they are the 12. 
Also I opened a topic about why the 12 Calipah ahadih is not binding.
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/12er-scholar-jafar-subhani-fails-to-respond-to-the-zaidi-challenge
Quote
Am I doing Takfeer on you??? LOL. First it was Takfeer on Sahaba and now it is Takfeer on you. What next???
Look what you wrote here.

Every time something came from Ghaib  there were those who were suspicious and doubtful just like you.

Quote
There is no such thing as Takfeer on you, the Sahaba and anyone else. As far as Shirk and Kufr is concerned, you don't have to go very far, take a look on this site, who is accusing who of what.
We will discuss this elsewhere.

Quote
Well if those who don't believe in Mahdi (as) as the 12th and final Imam and those who don't believe in him being Hujjatullah and Khalifatullah then Jesus (as), who people do believe in, will confirm this.
What if Muslim dies before this proof comes? So far Muslims have died till this day that we are speaking before this proof came. What is their status? Please don't make waiting for the Mahdi and Prophet Isa (as) binding on others.
Quote

This will be the evidence along with Hazrath Khizar for those who want solid proof. If people still continue to challenge Jesus (as) on this or still be arrogant and ignorant over the matter then it's down to then.
I told you already. Shaykh Saduq who is a major scholar of the 12ers said Prophet Isa (as) died. Believing in Prophet Isa (as) being alive or returning is not a belief which has an ijma on the ummah.

Quote
If you have a better ideology than this, which is more understanding and fits in well then, please do bring it forward.
Imam Jafar in al Kafi actually confirms the pillars of Ahle Sunnah in Al Kafi.



Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from certain persons of his people from Adam
ibn Ishaq from ‘Abd al-Razzaq from ibn Mihran from al-Husayn ibn Maymun
from Muhammad ibn Salim from abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, who has said the following:

Evidence of this (more serious sins) is the words of Allah, the
Most Majestic, the Most Holy, about them on their being
brought together in fire, “The last group will accuse the first
saying, ‘Lord, they made us go astray. Therefore, double their
torment in the Fire . . .’” (7:38) They will condemn and accuse
each other. They argue in the hope of winning but there will be
no winning, trial or acceptance of excuses and there will be no
way to safety. Such verses and similar other ones were revealed
in Makka. Allah does not send to fire anyone except the pagans.
‘When Allah granted Muhammad permission to leave Makka for
Madina he spoke of Islam having five principles:
‘To testify that no one deserves to be worshipped except Allah,
that Muhammad is His servant and His messenger, that
performing the prayer, paying al-Zakat (charity), Hajj of the
House and fasting in the month of Ramadan are obligatory. ( al Kafi Volume 2,  H 1506, CH 14, h 1)

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from certain persons of his people from Adam
ibn Ishaq from ‘Abd al-Razzaq from ibn Mihran from al-Husayn ibn Maymun
from Muhammad ibn Salim from abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, who has said the following:
“Abu Ja'far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said,
Allah commanded every prophet to follow the path and the tradition. Of the traditions that
Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, commanded Moses to
follow was al-Sabbath. Those who observed its greatness and
did not violate it out of respect for Allah, Allah admitted them to
paradise. Those who violated its sanctity and considered lawful
what Allah had made unlawful and prohibited, Allah, the Most
Majestic, the Most Holy, sent them to hellfire for their making
fishing lawful. They captured fish and ate them on Sabbath.
Allah showed anger toward them even though they had not taken
anyone as partners of the Beneficent or doubted the truth of what
Moses had brought. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy,
has said, “You certainly knew about those among you who were
transgressors on the Sabbath. We commanded them, ‘Become
detested apes . . .’” (2:65) Then Allah sent Jesus with the
testimony that said, “No one deserves to be worshiped except
Allah and all that he (Jesus) had brought was from Allah.” He
made for them a system of law and a path. He abolished the
Sabbath for which they, before, were commanded to pay respect
and the ways and traditions that Moses had brought. Whoever
did not follow Jesus, Allah sent them to fire, although all that the
prophets had said was that no one must be considered as a
partner of Allah. Then He sent Prophet Muhammad and for the
ten years that he lived in Makka everyone who testified to the
fact that “No one deserves to be worshipped except Allah, and
that Muhammad is His messenger” Allah admitted him to
paradise just because of his affirmation. It was belief and
affirmation. Allah did not punish anyone of those who died
following Muhammad in that matter except those who took
partners for the Beneficent. Evidence of this is what Allah, the
Most Majestic, the Most Holy, has revealed in Chapter 17 in
Makka). “Your Lord has ordained that you must not worship
anything other than Him and that you must be kind to your
parents . (al Kafi, H 1506, CH 14, h 1)



















 

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