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Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!

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fgss

Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« on: September 08, 2019, 01:18:40 PM »
https://youtu.be/YfUx2T9EUKk/

WATCH THIS. Language: URDU.


Here is one more example of false practise.

Brother Farid has showed that the claim about the merit of fasting ashura and arafa is actually false, i.e something which is perhaps agreed upon by all four sunni schools of thought.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1158706317583880192

Irony is that all such things are associate with month of moharram. May be the main purpose is to weaken the effects of Karbala and to defend the tyrant Yazid bin Muawiya. Many people esp from ahlehadith and deobandi schools are doing this, so much so that Zubair Ali zai had to write articles in their refutation.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 01:20:20 PM by fgss »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2019, 02:50:03 PM »
Here is one more example of false practise.
Practice or Idea?

Brother Farid has showed that the claim about the merit of fasting ashura and arafa is actually false, i.e something which is perhaps agreed upon by all four sunni schools of thought.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1158706317583880192
It's wasn't him but actually a scholar from whom he took this argument. Anyways, what needs to clarified is that Farid believes in and practices, the Fast of Ashura, he believes it to be perfectly authentic and established practice and Sunnah of Prophet(S), but doesn't believe that it's reportedly that it expiates sins of one year. But that doesn't mean he rejects Fasting on Ashura to  be Sunnah.

Irony is that all such things are associate with month of moharram. May be the main purpose is to weaken the effects of Karbala and to defend the tyrant Yazid bin Muawiya. Many people esp from ahlehadith and deobandi schools are doing this, so much so that Zubair Ali zai had to write articles in their refutation.
What effect of Karbala? And how would fasting on Ashura weaken its effect. Alhamdulillah Allah blessed us with wisdom, and proper understanding of deen, that's why we discard such silly and nonsensical conspiracy theories.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2019, 11:38:30 PM »
https://youtu.be/YfUx2T9EUKk/

WATCH THIS. Language: URDU.
I consider Ishaq Jhalvi to be deviant and untrustworthy person. Anyways, There is a reliable report which mentions the condition that Hussain(RA) wanted to surrender himself to Yazeed after going to Shaam. And the narrators are trustworthy.

We read:

فَحَدَّثَنِي هلال بن يساف : أن ابن زياد أمر بأخذ مَا بين واقصة إِلَى طريق الشام إِلَى طريق الْبَصْرَة فلا يدعون أحدا يلج وَلا أحدا يخرج ، فأقبل الْحُسَيْن وَلا يشعر بشيء حَتَّى لقي الأعراب فسألهم ، فَقَالُوا : لا ، وَاللَّهِ مَا ندري غير أنا لا نستطيع أن نلج وَلا نخرج ، قَالَ : فانطلق يسير نحو طريق الشام نحو يَزِيد فلقيته الخيول بكربلاء ، فنزل يناشدهم اللَّه والإسلام ، قَالَ : وَكَانَ بعث إِلَيْهِ عُمَر بن سَعْدٍ ، وشمر بن ذي الجوشن ، وحصين بن نمير فناشدهم الْحُسَيْن اللَّه والإسلام ؛ أن يسيروه إِلَى أَمِير الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فيضع يده فِي يده ، فَقَالُوا : لا ، إلا عَلَى حكم ابن زياد ، وَكَانَ فيمن بعث إِلَيْهِ الحر بن يَزِيدَ الحنظلي ثُمَّ النهشلي عَلَى خيل ، فلما سمع مَا يقول الْحُسَيْن ، قَالَ لَهُمْ : ألا تقبلون من هَؤُلاءِ مَا يعرضون عَلَيْكُمْ ، وَاللَّهِ لو سألكم هَذَا الترك والديلم مَا حل لكم أن تردوه ، فأبوا إلا عَلَى حكم ابن زياد ، فصرف الحر وجه فرسه ، وانطلق إِلَى الْحُسَيْن وأَصْحَابه ، فظنوا أنه إنما جَاءَ ليقاتلهم ، فلما دنا مِنْهُمْ قلب ترسه وَسَلَّمَ عَلَيْهِم ، ثُمَّ كر عَلَى أَصْحَاب ابن زياد فقاتلهم فقتل مِنْهُمْ رجلين ، ثُمَّ قتل رحمة اللَّه عَلَيْهِ
Hilal bin Yasaaf told me: Ibn Ziyad ordered to not let anyone in or out of the roads between Waqisa to the path of Al-Sham to the path of Basra. Al-Ḥusain came by without noticing until he saw a group of Bedouins. He asked and they replied: “We have no idea except that we cannot enter or exist.” He (Hilal) said: He then headed towards Al-Sham, towards Yazeed. The horses obstructed him at Karbala. He beseeched them by Allah and Islam. He (Hilal) said: ‘Umar bin Sa’ad, Shimr bin Thi Al-Jawshan and Husain bin Numair were sent to him, and Al-Ḥusain beseeched them by Allah and Islam to allow him to go to the Commander of the Believers and to put his hand onto his hand. They said: “No, Ibn Ziyad gets to decide what to do with you.” Amongst them, upon a horse, was Al-Ḥurr bin Yazeed Al-Ḥanthali Al-Nahshali. When he heard them say this to Al-Ḥusain he said: “Don’t you accept from these men what they propose?! If the Turks and the Daylam requested this, it would have been impermissible to reject them!” They would not step down without the decision of Ibn Ziyad. Al-Hurr then turned his horse and headed towards Al-Ḥusain and his companions. They thought he was going to attack them. When he arrived close, he flipped over his shield, saluted them, then blasted towards the men of Ibn Ziyad and attacked them. He killed two of them, and was then killed, may Allah have mercy upon him. (Tareekh Tabari, English, vol 19, page 79-80 ; Isnad is Sahih).

In regards to proving the authenticity of this report, then here is the chain of this report:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ الرَّازِيُّ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا عَبَّادُ بْنُ الْعَوَّامِ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا حُصَيْنٌ قَالَ فَحَدَّثَنِي هلال بن يساف
(Al-Tabari said) Mohammad bin Ammar Al-Razi said: Sa’eed bin Sulaiman told us: Abbad bin Awwam told us that Ḥusain(bin Abd al-rahman) said: Hilal bin Yasaaf told me…..

(i). Narrator Mohammad bin Ammar al-Razi is a Thiqa.

Ibn Hibban said about him: Mustaqeem al-hadeeth(upright in hadeeth)
Ibn Abi Hatim said: Saduq thiqa(truthful trustworthy).

(ii). The next narrator is Sa’eed bin Sulaiman bin Kinanah and he is also a Thiqa.

Abu Hatim said: Thiqa Mamoon.
Ahmad bin Saleh Ijli said: Thiqa
Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: Thiqa Hafidh.

(iii). Next narrator is Abbad bin Awwam, He is also Thiqa.

Abu Hatim said: Thiqa
Ali bin Madeeni said: Thiqa
Abu Dawud said: Thiqa
Nasai said: Thiqa
Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: Thiqa

(iv). Next narrator is Ḥusain bin Abd al-rahman he is Thiqa as well.

Ahmad bin Hanbal said: Thiqa min Kibaar ashaab al hadeeth(Trusthworthy, He is from Major narrators of hadeeth)
Abu Zura’a Razi: Thiqa
Yahya ibn Maeen said: Thiqa
Dhahabi said: Thiqa Hujjah.

(v). The last narrator is Hilal bin Yasaaf. He is Thiqa.

Ibn Hibban included him in his Thiqaat.
Ahmad bin Saleh al-Ijli said: Thiqa
Ibn Hajar Asqalani said: Thiqa.
Dhahabi said: Thiqa
Yahya ibn Maeen said: Thiqa.

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Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2019, 01:50:34 AM »
Salam Alaikum,

Why it doesn't make sense? What are the reasons?

As for the tweet of Farid - he clearly says Fasting on Ashura is narrated by more than 20 companions so there is no about its authenticity, he is only doubting the specific Hadith that says it removes the sins of one year.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2019, 11:19:04 AM »
Practice or Idea?

Practice that people follow due to a wrong idea.

Salam Alaikum,

Why it doesn't make sense? What are the reasons?

As for the tweet of Farid - he clearly says Fasting on Ashura is narrated by more than 20 companions so there is no about its authenticity, he is only doubting the specific Hadith that says it removes the sins of one year.

It's wasn't him but actually a scholar from whom he took this argument. Anyways, what needs to clarified is that Farid believes in and practices, the Fast of Ashura, he believes it to be perfectly authentic and established practice and Sunnah of Prophet(S), but doesn't believe that it's reportedly that it expiates sins of one year. But that doesn't mean he rejects Fasting on Ashura to  be Sunnah.

I never said that he rejected the fast of Ashura. Its the stablished sunnah, no doubt about that.

Quote
Brother Farid has showed that the claim about the merit of fasting ashura and arafa is actually false, i.e something which is perhaps agreed upon by all four sunni schools of thought.

What effect of Karbala? And how would fasting on Ashura weaken its effect. Alhamdulillah Allah blessed us with wisdom, and proper understanding of deen, that's why we discard such silly and nonsensical conspiracy theories.

At the time of Sahabah there was no much emphasis on fasting Ashura. https://sunnah.com/search/?q=ashura

But now a days people are divided into two extremes ragarding this. Sunnis say its highly recommended as it removes sins of one past year (some even fast first ten days of muharram), they also recommend to celebrate the day of Ashura, wear new clothes, prepare special food, etc. While shia believe it was practise of ibn marjanah.

1st muharram as death of Umar (as), do not wear black clothes (another sunnah) are among other things to keep sunnis away from knowing and listening about Imam Hussain's life and struggle.

At month of muharram most of the ahlul sunnah speakers talk more about Umar (as) compared to Hussain (as). Hence, many people from ahlul sunnah go to shia gatherings to learn about Hussain (as) and came out with mixed ideas.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2019, 11:29:49 AM »
I consider Ishaq Jhalvi to be deviant and untrustworthy person. Anyways, There is a reliable report which mentions the condition that Hussain(RA) wanted to surrender himself to Yazeed after going to Shaam. And the narrators are trustworthy.

We read:

فَحَدَّثَنِي هلال بن يساف : أن ابن زياد أمر بأخذ مَا بين واقصة إِلَى طريق الشام إِلَى طريق الْبَصْرَة فلا يدعون أحدا يلج وَلا أحدا يخرج ، فأقبل الْحُسَيْن وَلا يشعر بشيء حَتَّى لقي الأعراب فسألهم ، فَقَالُوا : لا ، وَاللَّهِ مَا ندري غير أنا لا نستطيع أن نلج وَلا نخرج ، قَالَ : فانطلق يسير نحو طريق الشام نحو يَزِيد فلقيته الخيول بكربلاء ، فنزل يناشدهم اللَّه والإسلام ، قَالَ : وَكَانَ بعث إِلَيْهِ عُمَر بن سَعْدٍ ، وشمر بن ذي الجوشن ، وحصين بن نمير فناشدهم الْحُسَيْن اللَّه والإسلام ؛ أن يسيروه إِلَى أَمِير الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فيضع يده فِي يده ، فَقَالُوا : لا ، إلا عَلَى حكم ابن زياد ، وَكَانَ فيمن بعث إِلَيْهِ الحر بن يَزِيدَ الحنظلي ثُمَّ النهشلي عَلَى خيل ، فلما سمع مَا يقول الْحُسَيْن ، قَالَ لَهُمْ : ألا تقبلون من هَؤُلاءِ مَا يعرضون عَلَيْكُمْ ، وَاللَّهِ لو سألكم هَذَا الترك والديلم مَا حل لكم أن تردوه ، فأبوا إلا عَلَى حكم ابن زياد ، فصرف الحر وجه فرسه ، وانطلق إِلَى الْحُسَيْن وأَصْحَابه ، فظنوا أنه إنما جَاءَ ليقاتلهم ، فلما دنا مِنْهُمْ قلب ترسه وَسَلَّمَ عَلَيْهِم ، ثُمَّ كر عَلَى أَصْحَاب ابن زياد فقاتلهم فقتل مِنْهُمْ رجلين ، ثُمَّ قتل رحمة اللَّه عَلَيْهِ
Hilal bin Yasaaf told me: Ibn Ziyad ordered to not let anyone in or out of the roads between Waqisa to the path of Al-Sham to the path of Basra. Al-Ḥusain came by without noticing until he saw a group of Bedouins. He asked and they replied: “We have no idea except that we cannot enter or exist.” He (Hilal) said: He then headed towards Al-Sham, towards Yazeed. The horses obstructed him at Karbala. He beseeched them by Allah and Islam. He (Hilal) said: ‘Umar bin Sa’ad, Shimr bin Thi Al-Jawshan and Husain bin Numair were sent to him, and Al-Ḥusain beseeched them by Allah and Islam to allow him to go to the Commander of the Believers and to put his hand onto his hand. They said: “No, Ibn Ziyad gets to decide what to do with you.” Amongst them, upon a horse, was Al-Ḥurr bin Yazeed Al-Ḥanthali Al-Nahshali. When he heard them say this to Al-Ḥusain he said: “Don’t you accept from these men what they propose?! If the Turks and the Daylam requested this, it would have been impermissible to reject them!” They would not step down without the decision of Ibn Ziyad. Al-Hurr then turned his horse and headed towards Al-Ḥusain and his companions. They thought he was going to attack them. When he arrived close, he flipped over his shield, saluted them, then blasted towards the men of Ibn Ziyad and attacked them. He killed two of them, and was then killed, may Allah have mercy upon him. (Tareekh Tabari, English, vol 19, page 79-80 ; Isnad is Sahih).

In regards to proving the authenticity of this report, then here is the chain of this report:

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَمَّارٍ الرَّازِيُّ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا عَبَّادُ بْنُ الْعَوَّامِ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا حُصَيْنٌ قَالَ فَحَدَّثَنِي هلال بن يساف
(Al-Tabari said) Mohammad bin Ammar Al-Razi said: Sa’eed bin Sulaiman told us: Abbad bin Awwam told us that Ḥusain(bin Abd al-rahman) said: Hilal bin Yasaaf told me…..

And that's exactly was the purpose for which ibn ziyad was appointed as governor of Kufa by Yazid, yet he did not allow Hussain (as) to go and give bayah to Yazid.

This report mention only one condition other mention three. All this make Yazid innocent and Hussain (as) a kind of confused person. There are many false theories in history books written by ummayds and abbasids, this is one of them. Look at Hussain's (as) journey and his sayings when he moved from Madina to Makkah then to Kufa. If he really wanted to put his hand in Yazid's hand then why he initially refused, hence did migration along with entire family. Or later he became a coward on seeing ibn saad's huge army. 

After Karbala, from ahlul bayt Zaid bin Ali bin Hussain (as) was the first person who followed the footsteps of Imam Hussain (as) and sacrificed his life like Hussain but did not give bayah to tyrant of his time. And that is the message of Karbala. Not like that he wanted to join and accept Yazid as legitimate ruler. 

Here is one side effect of such reports. Using this people defend caliphate of Yazid (who finally become a legally accursed person after incident of Harrah) and say uprising of Imam Hussain (as) was not the war between truth and falsehood. Watch from 09:00 to 12:45. And people are clapping.

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 12:37:20 PM »
And that's exactly was the purpose for which ibn ziyad was appointed as governor of Kufa by Yazid, yet he did not allow Hussain (as) to go and give bayah to Yazid.
There are two possibilities here:
1. Ibn Ziyad wanted  Imam Hussain(RA) to give Bayah without presenting any conditions, hence he didn't allow Imam Hussain(RA) and Hussain(RA) could have been willing to meet Yazeed and discuss with him certain conditions upon which he would give bayah.
2. By the expression of "giving hand in his hand" he meant surrendering before Yazeed, getting arrested. Because there expression isn't explicit to mean giving Bayah, even though it's a general meaning of it, but in Tabari you'll find this expression to mean getting arrested in other places.

This report mention only one condition other mention three. All this make Yazid innocent and Hussain (as) a kind of confused person.
Not at all. And the ones which mention three could be weak by Sunni standards, even though they are mentioned in reliable Shia book about Maqtal Hussain(R). But this report about one request of Hussain(R) is authentic.


There are many false theories in history books written by ummayds and abbasids, this is one of them.
If you have some objection based on Usool al-hadeeth then its welcome, otherwise one can reject Quranic verses based on his whims and desire. There are people present in world who claim verses of Quran were mis-arranged or words dropped from it, So there is no limit for conspiracy theories. Keep aside emotions and bring Academic argument. Ishaq Jhalvi too tried to bring academic argument when he weakened the other report, because he knew no one would believe foolish conspiracy theories if its not backed by academic evidence.

I doubt any Sunni would say such a thing when a report is proven to be authentic, because in that sense such a person could raise objection at any random authentic hadeeth even in Bukhari if it doesn't agrees with his whims and desire.

Look at Hussain's (as) journey and his sayings when he moved from Madina to Makkah then to Kufa. If he really wanted to put his hand in Yazid's hand then why he initially refused, hence did migration along with entire family. Or later he became a coward on seeing ibn saad's huge army.
That's because he realized that he was betrayed by Kufans, that's why we read both Sunni and Shia books, that Ahl al-bayt and Sahaba blamed Kufans for the Martyrdom of Imam Hussain(RA). He went their because kufans promised him to give bayah, when he broke their word, then its plausible for Imam Hussain(R) to say what we find in this authentic report.

After Karbala, from ahlul bayt Zaid bin Ali bin Hussain (as) was the first person who followed the footsteps of Imam Hussain (as) and sacrificed his life like Hussain but did not give bayah to tyrant of his time. And that is the message of Karbala. Not like that he wanted to join and accept Yazid as legitimate ruler.
So whose footsteps did Imam Mohammad al-Baqir(Ra) followed that time?

Here is one side effect of such reports. Using this people defend caliphate of Yazid (who finally become a legally accursed person after incident of Harrah) and say uprising of Imam Hussain (as) was not the war between truth and falsehood. Watch from 09:00 to 12:45. And people are clapping.

Br. Imran in this field is extremely low in knowledge in my opinion, he shouldn't be indulging in giving lectures when he doesn't have basic knowledge. He should first gain some basic knowledge about Shias.

Anyways, we believe that battle of Karbala wasn't a battle between Islam and Kufr, which Ghali Shia try to portray.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 12:41:25 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2019, 01:14:05 PM »
Practice that people follow due to a wrong idea.
Practice is done because the MAIN idea that it's a proven and established Sunnah, Infact it's proven from Tawattur. Even if people stop believing that it expiates sins of a year, it will hold equal importance. And not to forget that a section of Sunnis even accept weak reports in regards to virtues of something.

At the time of Sahabah there was no much emphasis on fasting Ashura. https://sunnah.com/search/?q=ashura
Ashura is an optional fast and a Sunnah. You shouldn't have a problem strongly adhering to Sunnah now adays. It's a good thing.

Ibn Abbas was asked about observing of fast on the day of Ashura, whereupon he said:
I do not know Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) singling out any day's fast and considering it more excellent than another, except this day (the day of Ashura) and this month, meaning the month of Ramadan. [Sahih Muslim 1132 a]

But now a days people are divided into two extremes ragarding this. Sunnis say its highly recommended as it removes sins of one past year (some even fast first ten days of muharram), they also recommend to celebrate the day of Ashura, wear new clothes, prepare special food, etc. While shia believe it was practise of ibn marjanah.
You are mixing two different things. People fast on Ashura, it's not an extreme, even if they believe that it expiates sins of an year. It's not an extreme.

People celebrating it like taking it day of Id are innovators, and those who wail and lament , self flagellate are also innovators and deviants.


1st muharram as death of Umar (as), do not wear black clothes (another sunnah) are among other things
First Muharram is proven to be the day of Martyrdom of Imam Umar(RA). Do not wear black clothes, yes it shouldn't be worn because in general its allowed to wear, but to wear on Ashura has become a symbol of a deviant  cult, hence dissociating from deviant people is Sunnah of Prophet(S), thus it shouldn't be worn on that day. And that's a valid opinion if one wants to follow.

to keep sunnis away from knowing and listening about Imam Hussain's life and struggle.
Listen from whom? If you mean Sunni Scholars? Then even if people wear wear red clothes then they can come and listen to lecture about Karbala at any Sunni place. Also if on first Muharram Martyrdom of Umar(RA) is discussed, still we get a friday wherein many Sunni mosques mention about Karbala event. But yes if you say that its obligatory to mention Martrdom of Hussain(RA) each and every year, then that's an extreme. There were other Martyrs in the Ummah as well, if is to wear back clothes and mourn, for all the Martyrs of Islam each year, then i doubt one would get any day to enjoy in life.

t
At month of muharram most of the ahlul sunnah speakers talk more about Umar (as) compared to Hussain (as). Hence, many people from ahlul sunnah go to shia gatherings to learn about Hussain (as) and came out with mixed ideas.
Those are ignorant who aren't aware of their own beliefs, or may be because of food they get, trust me in max cases that's the case. Poor Sunnis go there because they get food. And what is wrong if Martyrdom of Umar(RA) is being mentioned more than Hussain(RA) in Muharram by Sunnis. IF Martyrdom of Hussain(RA) is being mentioned then that should be fine. And why shouldn't Umar(R) be mentioned more, He was the second best person in this Ummah after Muhammad(SAWS).

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 10:01:57 AM »
If you have some objection based on Usool al-hadeeth then its welcome, otherwise one can reject Quranic verses based on his whims and desire. There are people present in world who claim verses of Quran were mis-arranged or words dropped from it, So there is no limit for conspiracy theories. Keep aside emotions and bring Academic argument. Ishaq Jhalvi too tried to bring academic argument when he weakened the other report, because he knew no one would believe foolish conspiracy theories if its not backed by academic evidence.

I doubt any Sunni would say such a thing when a report is proven to be authentic, because in that sense such a person could raise objection at any random authentic hadeeth even in Bukhari if it doesn't agrees with his whims and desire.

Was he (Hilal bin Yasaaf) present at Karbala? On whose side?
 

  So whose footsteps did Imam Mohammad al-Baqir(Ra) followed that time?

There are two ways.
1. Accept the government and allow them to expose themselves like Imam Hassan (as) did.
2. Do the Jihad against injustice like Imam Hussain (as) did.


Br. Imran in this field is extremely low in knowledge in my opinion, he shouldn't be indulging in giving lectures when he doesn't have basic knowledge. He should first gain some basic knowledge about Shias.

Anyways, we believe that battle of Karbala wasn't a battle between Islam and Kufr, which Ghali Shia try to portray.

So without any basic knowledge he is doing this. In other words he is openly lying and misguiding his audience. India is a big country, and he has huge followers there. 

Yes. Not Islam vs Kufr, but it was a battle against injustice of ummayds, a battle of truth and falsehood. Same applies to battle of Harrah and to ibn Zubair's uprising. There is no ghuluw in that.

On other hand there are ghaali sunnis as well, who believe that behind every wrong thing were Saba'is.

You are again showing only one side of a picture.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:04:29 AM by fgss »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 11:00:20 AM »
And what is wrong if Martyrdom of Umar(RA) is being mentioned more than Hussain(RA) in Muharram by Sunnis. IF Martyrdom of Hussain(RA) is being mentioned then that should be fine. And why shouldn't Umar(R) be mentioned more, He was the second best person in this Ummah after Muhammad(SAWS).

That is the issue perhaps why many sunnis are obsessed with 1st Muharram as death of Imam Umar (as) so that they can talk only about him entire Muharram. Even Imam Umar (as) used to respect and love Imam Hussain (as) more compared to his own children and other people.
 
Incident of Karbala is very important part of Islamic history. It teaches us many lessons but many sunnis dont want to learn and teach others.

Narrated Abu Huraira: People say that I have narrated many Hadiths (The Prophet's narration). Had it not been for two verses in the Qur'an, I would not have narrated a single Hadith, and the verses are: Verily those who conceal the clear sign and the guidance which We have sent down . . . (up to) Most Merciful. (2:159-160). And no doubt our Muhajir (emigrant) brothers used to be busy in the market with their business (bargains) and our Ansari brothers used to be busy with their property (agriculture). But I (Abu Huraira) used to stick to Allah's Apostle contented with what will fill my stomach and I used to attend that which they used not to attend and I used to memorize that which they used not to memorize. [Bukhari #118]

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I have memorized two kinds of knowledge from Allah's Apostle . I have propagated one of them to you and if I propagated the second, then my pharynx (throat) would be cut (i.e. killed). [Bukhari #120]

Narrated Jarir: The Prophet said to me during Hajjat-al-Wida`: Let the people keep quiet and listen. Then he said (addressing the people), Do not (become infidels) revert to disbelief after me by striking the necks (cutting the throats) of one another (killing each other). [Bukhari #121]
حَدَّثَنَا حَجَّاجٌ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ ، قَالَ : أَخْبَرَنِي عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُدْرِكٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي زُرْعَةَ ، عَنْ جَرِيرٍ ، أَنّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ لَهُ فِي حَجَّةِ الْوَدَاعِ : اسْتَنْصِتِ النَّاسَ ، فَقَالَ : لَا تَرْجِعُوا بَعْدِي كُفَّارًا يَضْرِبُ بَعْضُكُمْ رِقَابَ بَعْضٍ .


 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 11:02:00 AM by fgss »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 01:41:52 PM »
That is the issue perhaps why many sunnis are obsessed with 1st Muharram as death of Imam Umar (as) so that they can talk only about him entire Muharram. Even Imam Umar (as) used to respect and love Imam Hussain (as) more compared to his own children and other people.
Now you started again switching your terminology

You said:
Quote
At month of muharram most of the ahlul sunnah speakers talk more about Umar (as) compared to Hussain (as).
When I answered that about Umar(RA) it is mentioned More implies about Hussain(RA) is also mentioned, you switched to mentioning ONLY Umar(RA), why can't you be consistent?  And Sunnis do mention about Imam Hussain(RA) in Muharram, along side mentioning Umar(RA). SO you are lying when you say Umar(RA) alone is mentioned. So keep your lies to yourself.

Incident of Karbala is very important part of Islamic history. It teaches us many lessons but many sunnis dont want to learn and teach others.
You had a sort of objection over Sunnis staunchly adhering to following Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, even though its an established fact that Prophet(Saws) and Sahaba fasted on it. But tell me from where are you arguing about the mention of Karbala or Umar(RA) in Muharram, is it Sunnah of Sahaba that whenever Ashura or Muharram approached they started reminding people of Karbala or Umar(RA) ? Or Tabaeen?  I don't prefer your views or logic. i'm interested in seeing the view of Salaf from Ahlus-sunnah, because a person who objects staunch abidance to Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, should be atleast have something from Salaf for which he is advocating or criticizing other Sunnis. Such standards are important to expose under cover Shias, so please don't mind.

muslim720

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 02:16:08 PM »
That is the issue perhaps why many sunnis are obsessed with 1st Muharram as death of Imam Umar (as) so that they can talk only about him entire Muharram.

What a fallacious statement! 

Growing up in a Sunni family, Muharram was always reserved for Imam Hussain (ra) with the 10th being commemorated by fasting and sending out "halwa" (if you are from Afghanistan, Pakistan or India, you would know what that is).  Heck, my family did not even know about the fast of Ashura; they would fast so that they could spend the day sending prayers upon Imam Hussain (ra) and his family.

As for the death of Umar (ra), it was only a few years ago that I read that he was killed on 1st Muharram.  Two years thereafter, I found out that there is ikhtilaaf over the date of his death and since it has no bearing on my aqeedah, I dropped the matter.

So no, we do not talk about Umar (ra) the entire Muharram.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

muslim720

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 02:18:49 PM »
Incident of Karbala is very important part of Islamic history. It teaches us many lessons but many sunnis dont want to learn and teach others.

fgss: Sunnis don't want to learn and teach others.
Also fgss: *quotes our ahaadith widely available in many languages*

Am I the only one to see this ridiculous contradiction?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

MuslimK

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  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 06:14:50 PM »
do not wear black clothes (another sunnah) are among other things to keep sunnis away from knowing and listening about Imam Hussain's life and struggle.


This is a bit confusing now. So wearing black clothes is a Sunnah? And Sunnis saying do no wear black clothes keep Sunnis away from learning about Husayn?


Quote
Quote from: fgss on Yesterday at 11:29:49 AM

There are many false theories in history books written by ummayds and abbasids, this is one of them.

Tarikh Tabari was written during the Abbasid era - they were anti-Ummayads.

Quote
If he really wanted to put his hand in Yazid's hand then why he initially refused, hence did migration along with entire family. Or later he became a coward on seeing ibn saad's huge army. 

Because he thought when he gets to Kufa he will make his base there but then he was intercepted on the way and he also learned that people who sent him letters turned their backs on him so the best option was to return or go to Shaam. Maybe Hussain had other secret plans as well, Allah knows. So I don't know how it doesn't make sense.


Quote
Quote from: fgss on Today at 11:00:20 AM

That is the issue perhaps why many sunnis are obsessed with 1st Muharram as death of Imam Umar (as) so that they can talk only about him entire Muharram.

Maybe some people do that in your city or country (could be a reaction to Shia propaganda). This is the first time I am hearing this issue of 1st of Muharram and argument over it.

Quote
At month of muharram most of the ahlul sunnah speakers talk more about Umar (as) compared to Hussain

This again maybe related to some people in your country. So you are saying most of Ahlul Sunnah speakers in your country speak more about Omar compared to Husayn during Muharam? In Pakistan?

Quote
Quote from: fgss on Yesterday at 11:19:04 AM
But now a days people are divided into two extremes ragarding this. Sunnis say its highly recommended as it removes sins of one past year (some even fast first ten days of muharram), they also recommend to celebrate the day of Ashura, wear new clothes, prepare special food, etc.

Again, this is the first time I am hearing this. So people, I assume you mean the scholars, are divided into two extremes in your country.  One group recommend that people celebrate on the day of Ashura? This is strange.

The other extreme group say fasting on it it removes sin of one year. How is saying this about the virtue of fasting extreme?

The Shia propaganda and extreme on Ashura shouldn't influence your thinking.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 06:22:53 PM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2019, 07:11:28 PM »
Now you started again switching your terminology

You said:When I answered that about Umar(RA) it is mentioned More implies about Hussain(RA) is also mentioned, you switched to mentioning ONLY Umar(RA), why can't you be consistent?  And Sunnis do mention about Imam Hussain(RA) in Muharram, along side mentioning Umar(RA). SO you are lying when you say Umar(RA) alone is mentioned. So keep your lies to yourself.
You had a sort of objection over Sunnis staunchly adhering to following Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, even though its an established fact that Prophet(Saws) and Sahaba fasted on it. But tell me from where are you arguing about the mention of Karbala or Umar(RA) in Muharram, is it Sunnah of Sahaba that whenever Ashura or Muharram approached they started reminding people of Karbala or Umar(RA) ? Or Tabaeen?  I don't prefer your views or logic. i'm interested in seeing the view of Salaf from Ahlus-sunnah, because a person who objects staunch abidance to Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, should be atleast have something from Salaf for which he is advocating or criticizing other Sunnis. Such standards are important to expose under cover Shias, so please don't mind.

All sunni speakers are not on the same page and pattern. Its a basic thing.

Many mention Imam Hussain (as) but very less compared to Imam Umar (as). Many mention only things that refute shia wrong practises. Many don't even bother to mention any.

I don't understand why they love to mention Umar (as) more and more which is a good thing, and they even start mentioning him before the start of Muharram but for Hussain (as) they find excuses as much as they can.

Even on this forum I asked about Imam Hussain (as).
http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/sayings-and-sermons-of-imam-hussain-(as)/msg26282/

But it seems like people are more interested in defending 1st muharram.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2019, 07:25:39 PM »
What a fallacious statement! 

Growing up in a Sunni family, Muharram was always reserved for Imam Hussain (ra) with the 10th being commemorated by fasting and sending out "halwa" (if you are from Afghanistan, Pakistan or India, you would know what that is).  Heck, my family did not even know about the fast of Ashura; they would fast so that they could spend the day sending prayers upon Imam Hussain (ra) and his family.

As for the death of Umar (ra), it was only a few years ago that I read that he was killed on 1st Muharram.  Two years thereafter, I found out that there is ikhtilaaf over the date of his death and since it has no bearing on my aqeedah, I dropped the matter.

So no, we do not talk about Umar (ra) the entire Muharram.

fgss: Sunnis don't want to learn and teach others.
Also fgss: *quotes our ahaadith widely available in many languages*

Am I the only one to see this ridiculous contradiction?

These statements are for sunni speakers of today. Its not like that they do not love ahlul bayt but many dont mention him at the time when he needs to be mentioned.

I have also learnt many things about ahlul bayt first through shia then searched and verified from ahlul sunnah books. Because sunni speakers dont mention much.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2019, 07:31:35 PM »
This is a bit confusing now. So wearing black clothes is a Sunnah? And Sunnis saying do no wear black clothes keep Sunnis away from learning about Husayn?


Tarikh Tabari was written during the Abbasid era - they were anti-Ummayads.

Because he thought when he gets to Kufa he will make his base there but then he was intercepted on the way and he also learned that people who sent him letters turned their backs on him so the best option was to return or go to Shaam. Maybe Hussain had other secret plans as well, Allah knows. So I don't know how it doesn't make sense.


Maybe some people do that in your city or country (could be a reaction to Shia propaganda). This is the first time I am hearing this issue of 1st of Muharram and argument over it.

This again maybe related to some people in your country. So you are saying most of Ahlul Sunnah speakers in your country speak more about Omar compared to Husayn during Muharam? In Pakistan?

Again, this is the first time I am hearing this. So people, I assume you mean the scholars, are divided into two extremes in your country.  One group recommend that people celebrate on the day of Ashura? This is strange.

The other extreme group say fasting on it it removes sin of one year. How is saying this about the virtue of fasting extreme?

The Shia propaganda and extreme on Ashura shouldn't influence your thinking.

Yes, its about indo-pak region. And by sunnis I mean the present day speakers/scholars.

That is there is more emphasis on how you can oppose the Shia and about what wrong things Shia are doing in Muharram rather than informing their public about Life of Hussain (as) and incident of Karbala.

Fasting on Ashura is sunnah, no doubt.

Below is what I initially said.

"But now a days people are divided into two extremes ragarding this. Sunnis say its highly recommended as it removes sins of one past year (some even fast first ten days of muharram), they also recommend to celebrate the day of Ashura, wear new clothes, prepare special food, etc. While shia believe it was practise of ibn marjanah."

Which is directed to those who celebrate this day and highly recommend fasting Ashura as a symbol of happiness. And say Ashura is not a sad day or uprising of Hussain (as) was not about Islam and Kufr, truth or false etc.

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

muslim720

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2019, 07:41:37 PM »
These statements are for sunni speakers of today. Its not like that they do not love ahlul bayt but many dont mention him at the time when he needs to be mentioned.

Mention who?  Imam Hussain (ra)?  For what?  Our religion is complete with or without Imam Hussain's (ra) sacrifice.

Quote
I have also learnt many things about ahlul bayt first through shia then searched and verified from ahlul sunnah books. Because sunni speakers dont mention much.

Again, what do you want us to mention?  Shias are stuck in the sixty years after the Holy Prophet (saw) left the world whereas the Sunni world is highly vested in the 23 Prophetic years.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2019, 08:01:10 PM »
All sunni speakers are not on the same page and pattern. Its a basic thing.

Many mention Imam Hussain (as) but very less compared to Imam Umar (as). Many mention only things that refute shia wrong practises. Many don't even bother to mention any.

I don't understand why they love to mention Umar (as) more and more which is a good thing, and they even start mentioning him before the start of Muharram but for Hussain (as) they find excuses as much as they can.

Even on this forum I asked about Imam Hussain (as).
http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/sayings-and-sermons-of-imam-hussain-(as)/msg26282/

But it seems like people are more interested in defending 1st muharram.

I await your answer on this , because it pretty much refutes your whole argument.

Quote
You had a sort of objection over Sunnis staunchly adhering to following Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, even though its an established fact that Prophet(Saws) and Sahaba fasted on it. But tell me from where are you arguing about the mention of Karbala or Umar(RA) in Muharram, is it Sunnah of Sahaba that whenever Ashura or Muharram approached they started reminding people of Karbala or Umar(RA) ? Or Tabaeen?  I don't prefer your views or logic. i'm interested in seeing the view of Salaf from Ahlus-sunnah, because a person who objects staunch abidance to Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, should be atleast have something from Salaf for which he is advocating or criticizing other Sunnis

fgss

Re: Imam Hussain's three conditions at Karbala makes no sense!
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2019, 09:58:34 AM »
I await your answer on this , because it pretty much refutes your whole argument.

Quote
You had a sort of objection over Sunnis staunchly adhering to following Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, even though its an established fact that Prophet(Saws) and Sahaba fasted on it. But tell me from where are you arguing about the mention of Karbala or Umar(RA) in Muharram, is it Sunnah of Sahaba that whenever Ashura or Muharram approached they started reminding people of Karbala or Umar(RA) ? Or Tabaeen?  I don't prefer your views or logic. i'm interested in seeing the view of Salaf from Ahlus-sunnah, because a person who objects staunch abidance to Sunnah of fasting on Ashura, should be atleast have something from Salaf for which he is advocating or criticizing other Sunnis

(1) I have no objection over sunnis fasting on Ashura or on any other day. If it looked like that I am rejecting Sunnah then again I apologize and that I should have been more clear in my words at the begininng.

(2) By that logic nothing should be mentioned when the days come. Then how will people learn about the life of Sahabah and Ahlul bayt. Through shia may be?
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

 

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