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A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"

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whoaretheshia

A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« on: November 20, 2017, 08:37:04 PM »
In the recent year some individuals have tried to create 'twelve' reasons as to why Shia muslims should leave Shia Islam. This article can be found on this forum, and it actually one of the poorest articles - with the greatest of respect i have read. Thus, the whoaretheshia team have decided to address this, and you can find it here:

Your article is sadly either replete with errors, or purporting misconceptions.  Your article on Ghadeer also is very disingenuous, particularly when you take into account your translation of the word 'Mawla' is dishonest - i will cover this once i can inshAllah get assurance i am free to post without needing each post approved, so that there is certainty i will not be censored. To be honest, even the work you did on Thaqalayn is flawed. If you permit me, i will present this for you on here.

I have made this account to demonstrate that to you , my dear brothers. InshAllah Allah the Almighty can guide us all to truth.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 07:47:49 PM by Hani »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Abu Muhammad

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 02:58:55 AM »
Welcome @whoaretheshia,

1) Glad to see someone sounds academic from Twelvers joining this forum. It has been quite a while we are not seeing Hani, Farid and some other knowledgeable brothers engaging in academic discussion with Twelvers. I'm very much looking forward to seeing your posts

2) Why don't you change your name and the name of your website as well to "whoarethetwelvershia". Shia is such broad spectrum i.e. from someone who prefered Ali over Uthman at one end to someone who regards Ali as God at the other end. I don't think you are trying to explain all those sects within Shi'ism except for Twelver Shia.

3) I can say that virtually all Shia websites that I've visited don't have "comment section". Yours too is no exception. I just wonder why.

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 03:17:00 AM »
Welcome @whoaretheshia,

1) Glad to see someone sounds academic from Twelvers joining this forum. It has been quite a while we are not seeing Hani, Farid and some other knowledgeable brothers engaging in academic discussion with Twelvers. I'm very much looking forward to seeing your posts

2) Why don't you change your name and the name of your website as well to "whoarethetwelvershia". Shia is such broad spectrum i.e. from someone who prefered Ali over Uthman at one end to someone who regards Ali as God at the other end. I don't think you are trying to explain all those sects within Shi'ism except for Twelver Shia.

3) I can say that virtually all Shia websites that I've visited don't have "comment section". Yours too is no exception. I just wonder why.

Barakallahufik.

InshAllah, i will address two points you have made:

1. The vast majority of Shia's today are those who refer themselves as Jafferi i.e the ones who believe in the twelve Amirs/ Leaders after the Prophet [saw], with the final being al-Mahdi, the descendent from his Ahlulbayt through the line of Fatima. I would estimate 85-90% are of my creed, and the trend i have noticed is that owing to our monopoly on Shia media, online websites, religious seminaries and institutions, you are now going to be seeing that number inshAllah get somewhere close to 95% in the future - particularly through globalised world we see today and ease of access to spread teachings.  We are the only group to have the level of hadith literature, tafseer, and scholarly rigour unmatched by any other. For all intents and purposes, we are the only serious Shia group and everyone is now drawing back to us.

2. The team at whoaretheshia have recently assembled, and so having a place where one can comment may be incorporated providing we can stop spam, abuse, and anything of this sort. Either way, our articles address pretty much all of the latest rebuttals and arguments. Our website is not designed to be the centre of debate, but where articles are presented whereby we fairly and comprehensively address other rebuttals.

We are reaching out to other forums, and so there is no fear in our own arguments. People may refute it, create articles against it, and contact us and we will be happy to respond.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 07:47:16 PM by Hani »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Abu Muhammad

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 04:16:30 AM »
2) Why don't you change your name and the name of your website as well to "whoarethetwelvershia". Shia is such broad spectrum i.e. from someone who prefered Ali over Uthman at one end to someone who regards Ali as God at the other end. I don't think you are trying to explain all those sects within Shi'ism except for Twelver Shia.

1. The vast majority of Shia's today are those who refer themselves as Jafferi i.e the ones who believe in the twelve Amirs/ Leaders after the Prophet [saw], with the final being al-Mahdi, the descendent from his Ahlulbayt through the line of Fatima. I would estimate 85-90% are of my creed, and the trend i have noticed is that owing to our monopoly on Shia media, online websites, religious seminaries and institutions, you are now going to be seeing that number inshAllah get somewhere close to 95% in the future - particularly through globalised world we see today and ease of access to spread teachings.  We are the only group to have the level of hadith literature, tafseer, and scholarly rigour unmatched by any other. For all intents and purposes, we are the only serious Shia group and everyone is now drawing back to us.

This is what you said in your website:

"This page is dedicated to providing quality, highly researched, and academic responses to refutations against Shia Islam and Shia beliefs. We understand the need to be honest about what sources we use, because it is essential not to be disingenuous, nor twist traditions or force meaning where there is not any. We are not intending to convert Sunni muslims into Shia muslims. Our aim is to present to you the fundamental aspects of our beliefs and to defend our creed. You the reader, are thus armed with accurate information about what we believe and can make your own informed judgement."

You claimed yours to be academic refutations. Those refutations, I believe, are only for Twelver Shia and not for Ismai'lis or Zaydis for example. The sources you used will definitely shows that. If it were meant to be academic, you should be frank of which version of Shia you are in the first place.

Your claim of number of followers, level of hadith literature, tafseer, and scholarly rigour unmatched by any other, etc. mean nothing in academic discussion except for propaganda purpose and that's not your intention reading from what you said in your website.

Anyhow, that's not a big deal. Just my view.

2. The team at Forbidden_Link have recently assembled, and so having a place where one can comment may be incorporated providing we can stop spam, abuse, and anything of this sort. Either way, our articles address pretty much all of the latest rebuttals and arguments. Our website is not designed to be the centre of debate, but where articles are presented whereby we fairly and comprehensively address other rebuttals.

We are reaching out to other forums, and so there is no fear in our own arguments. People may refute it, create articles against it, and contact us and we will be happy to respond.

Understood and respect your decision.

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 05:21:16 AM »
2) Why don't you change your name and the name of your website as well to "whoarethetwelvershia". Shia is such broad spectrum i.e. from someone who prefered Ali over Uthman at one end to someone who regards Ali as God at the other end. I don't think you are trying to explain all those sects within Shi'ism except for Twelver Shia.

While there is no doubt there are nuances in the word, we need to look at what was and has become the most dominant understanding of the word. When someone wants to know about the Shia, 9.95 times out of 10 they will learn about the Jafferi's, otherwise known as the ithna-asheri. You also have to take into account that we are not discussing a sect within Islam that has various dominant groups with comparable literature and scholarly rigour. 85-90% of Shia's today believe in the twelve amirs/leaders after the Prophet [saw]. You might have five or six percent who are Zaydi's, one or two percent who might be another group. These groups have very little hadith literature compared to us, very little scholarship, and most of them are pretty much just cultural followers - and often rejoin us when educated.

If you look at Islam, you will find a divide between Sunni and Shia that is far more concrete. Both groups - the Sunni and the Shia, posses their own corpus of hadith literature, arguably just as powerful as the other in volume and as early sources, a host of influential classical scholars who have authored canonical works and fundamental treaties, and clear scholarly rigour.

Remember, within the Sunni world today, there are some major divisions spanning Fiqh and Aqeedah. Historically, the dominant group has been the Ashari and Maturidi. Salafi's will refer to them as 'innovators' and 'deviants' and not part of the 'Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaah'. The Ashari and Maturidi will often say the same about the Salafi's, claiming that they are the Ahlus-Sunnah Wal Jamaah and that the Salafi's are misguided. Now, these are some pretty fundamental Aqeedah differences on issues like Tawheed among others. Yet you find scholars claiming 'We are the Ahlus-Sunnah' despite the fact they only comprise of 20-30% of Sunni Muslims today if they are Salafi.

The idea that Shia Islam is divided into multitudes of sects and groups, and that you need to start to examine and identify with each one individually is in my view, disingenuous. The vast majority are those who call themselves 'Jafferi's', and follow the twelve amirs/leaders after the Messenger of Allah [saw]. They are the only group to have any level of rigour as far as hadith compilations, classical scholarly works, and a near monopoly on almost all Shia Dawah efforts.

Just because one or two percent might be Ismaili, who generally are just cultural followers with very little academic basis to their faith, many of whom when educated affirm the true Shia creed, does not mean i have to distinguish myself by a particular name every single time.  The only relevant Shia group are the one who believe in the twelve Amirs/Leaders after the Prophet [saw]. And this website has clearly identified that, which is why it centred on refuting us.


Quote
You claimed yours to be academic refutations. Those refutations, I believe, are only for Twelver Shia and not for Ismai'lis or Zaydis for example. The sources you used will definitely shows that. If it were meant to be academic, you should be frank of which version of Shia you are in the first place.

The majority of the refutations centre on Ghadeer, Thaqalayn, issues of Aqeedah such as the Sifat of Allah [swt], which is applicable for all.

Quote
Your claim of number of followers, level of hadith literature, tafseer, and scholarly rigour unmatched by any other, etc. mean nothing in academic discussion except for propaganda purpose and that's not your intention reading from what you said in your website.

I think having a website that reads as 'twelvershia.net' is misleading people and should have defined that it is refuting the aforementioned creed. That is what you would call propaganda.

As i have clarified, we have never had a need to distinguish ourselves, because almost every single Shia you will debate, or come across will be one who believes in the twelve. Almost every single classical hadith book, or scholarly work you will refute, comes from us. Almost every political establishment in the ME where the Shia have power and authority comes from us. Almost every youtube channel, television networks, websites, printed books, is all from us. When someone calls themselves a Shia, there is really almost little need to distinguish it any further on from there.

I hope inshAllah you see where i come from.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Abu Muhammad

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 05:31:59 AM »
It's ok, brother. As I said previously, it's not a big deal.

fgss

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 10:30:49 AM »
Assalam o alaikum brother whoaretheshia,

I have few questions.

Why twelver main hadith books are not available in searchable format in english language, just like we have sunnah.com & many other likes. Shia website al-islam.org have hundreds of books in such format even books of Tejani but not any main hadith book?

Is the tafsir of Sheikh Tusi available in english? Download link? As you said its the most reliable classic shia tafsir so I really wanna read this.

And what's your response on this question. Answer here if you like to: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 10:43:09 AM »
Assalam o alaikum brother whoaretheshia,

I have few questions.

Why twelver main hadith books are not available in searchable format in english language, just like we have sunnah.com & many other likes. Shia website al-islam.org have hundreds of books in such format even books of Tejani but not any main hadith book?

Is the tafsir of Sheikh Tusi available in english? Download link? As you said its the most reliable classic shia tafsir so I really wanna read this.

And what's your response on this question. Answer here if you like to: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/


There are comparatively far fewer Shia's in the west and in English speaking countries, most of the Shia's residing mostly in the Middle east and Asia. This is why you'll find most of our classical works translated into Urdu, Farsi, and obviously present in Arabic.

However, there have been major efforts to translate our works. We have many of the works of Shaykh-as-Saduq translated, al-Kafi entirely translated, major works by Shaykh-Tusi such as Kamal-al-Deen translated. We have whole libraries of works of our classical scholars, shuyukh, all translated into English. Al-islam.org is the first thing that pops up when anyone wants to search about Islam, and so our translation efforts have been strong. Al-Mizan has also been translated can can be found on almizan.org

However, when it comes to many of the books of Fiqh we see, as well as scholarly works which are very high-level and specialised, they are often left in Arabic or Farsi, for the scholars who are best equipped to study them, rather than individuals reading Fiqh books in English and making their own rulings. Like most orthodox Sunni's, and contrary to Salafi's, we follow a Taqleed system, whereby we follow the scholar deemed most knowledgeable. There is no real need for layman to be delving deeply into the books of Fiqh any way [even though they have been translated].

I personally feel things are getting better, and improving, and while we have many translated works, i would be great to have more of them. However what exists currently is more than adequate for the vast majority of layman, and for those who seek this kind of knowledge, you would expect them to invest time to devote in Arabic.

As for Imam Ali declaring his Imamah, i think we should start with the mother, before discussing her children. I propose we first debate on Ghadeer Khumm and whether or not he was chosen. We have created a rebuttal we would encourage you to read here: It is important to establish that.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 07:40:29 PM by Hani »
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

fgss

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 10:05:56 AM »
Assalam o alaikum brother whoaretheshia,

I have few questions.

Why twelver main hadith books are not available in searchable format in english language, just like we have sunnah.com & many other likes. Shia website al-islam.org have hundreds of books in such format even books of Tejani but not any main hadith book?

Is the tafsir of Sheikh Tusi available in english? Download link? As you said its the most reliable classic shia tafsir so I really wanna read this.

And what's your response on this question. Answer here if you like to: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/


There are comparatively far fewer Shia's in the west and in English speaking countries, most of the Shia's residing mostly in the Middle east and Asia. This is why you'll find most of our classical works translated into Urdu, Farsi, and obviously present in Arabic.

However, there have been major efforts to translate our works. We have many of the works of Shaykh-as-Saduq translated, al-Kafi entirely translated, major works by Shaykh-Tusi such as Kamal-al-Deen translated. We have whole libraries of works of our classical scholars, shuyukh, all translated into English. Al-islam.org is the first thing that pops up when anyone wants to search about Islam, and so our translation efforts have been strong. Al-Mizan has also been translated can can be found on almizan.org

However, when it comes to many of the books of Fiqh we see, as well as scholarly works which are very high-level and specialised, they are often left in Arabic or Farsi, for the scholars who are best equipped to study them, rather than individuals reading Fiqh books in English and making their own rulings. Like most orthodox Sunni's, and contrary to Salafi's, we follow a Taqleed system, whereby we follow the scholar deemed most knowledgeable. There is no real need for layman to be delving deeply into the books of Fiqh any way [even though they have been translated].

I personally feel things are getting better, and improving, and while we have many translated works, i would be great to have more of them. However what exists currently is more than adequate for the vast majority of layman, and for those who seek this kind of knowledge, you would expect them to invest time to devote in Arabic.


Fair enough. But I think an online shia hadith corpus is very necessary in this era so that anyone can find relevant ahadith within seconds. As most of the people dont have much time to go through a non searchable book in order to find the required part or to learn the arabic language. And yes Kitab al-kafi is available but in form of scanned pages I think, so its again non searchable.

If not in english then can I get Tafsir of Tusi or his other two major works in urdu? Are they available? 


Quote
As for Imam Ali declaring his Imamah, i think we should start with the mother, before discussing her children. I propose we first debate on Ghadeer Khumm and whether or not he was chosen. We have created a rebuttal we would encourage you to read here: https://Forbidden_Link/ghadeer-response/ It is important to establish that.

I think there is no dispute on the fact that Prophet saww declared Imam Ali as maula of every believer at ghadir khumm. Difference is on its meaning/usage. Hence I prefer the aftermath part more. As it will help us to know in what sense/meaning Imam Ali himself and those who were present at ghadir understood.

I have answered some parts of your aftermath rebuttals in the other thread here:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/question-for-shias-did-imam-ali-decare-his-imamah/msg19968/#new
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Farid

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 11:56:43 AM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

MuslimK

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Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 03:34:39 PM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

I was wondering the same thing Farid. Maybe because they are too strong to be dealt with. :) Censorship? Yet, the OP is concerned about censorship on this forum even though Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful.

Some points are even skipped and replies to some points are not even relevant. Anyways, it is a nice attempt by the Shia although a weak one.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 04:23:32 PM by MuslimK »
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 11:15:38 PM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

The actual arguments were incredibly weak on the whole, and i actually quoted them to try to show the logic and rationale behind why those statements were made.  Overall, you guys do produce some good work - which can be refuted. However, i was actually surprised at the low level of quality of this one. I was expecting something better to be honest. I feel in summarising them, i stayed faithful to the key and relevant points, and put aside any hyperbole or semantics.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 11:23:26 PM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

I was wondering the same thing Farid. Maybe because they are too strong to be dealt with. :) Censorship? Yet, the OP is concerned about censorship on this forum even though Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful.

Some points are even skipped and replies to some points are not even relevant. Anyways, it is a nice attempt by the Shia although a weak one.

The article posted on TSN is pretty weak. Each point only has a couple of sentences, and many of those sentences are not relevant to the argument - they are just semantics. We opted to paraphrase it so that we could do away with the semantics and quote the essence of what was being argued.  I would not do this if it was an academically rigorous article - because it would be necessary to quote the full text.

I am surprised you find out response weak, considering we have addressed actual errors made in the TSN article. For example, the idea we have barely any prophetic a hadith, and 9/10 are graded as 'weak' due to anonymity of the narrator is patently false. It isn't even an argument - this is not true. I would know because collecting specific traditions from the Prophet [saw] has been an interest of mine, and i can tell you in al-Kafi there are 2400 traditions about the Prophet, or a saying of the Prophet, or a virtue of the Prophet. 800 can be substantiated by chain, and the majority of those which can not have an authentic chain - or several other chains which corroborate it and so make it reliable based on external evidence.  In W'asail there are around 7000 traditions from the Prophet [saw] mainly on Fiqh issues. So essentially, we refuted an error. I won't call it a lie, but i will call it very poor research.

Furthermore, on the topic of Tafsir, even though Tafsir-al-Qummi is highly disputed, it must be noted this was alleged to have been written even before the most acclaimed Tafsir in the Sunni world was written - Tafisr Tabari. The article on TSN seemed to ignore that Shaykh-Tusi was born just 78 years after Tabari, is the author of one of our greatest Tafsirs, and that by all means is a classical Tafsir.

We have addressed several issues we believe in a compelling manner.  The problem is, the TSN article barely had a few sentences for each point, and there was no real argument - only semantics. We could not be expected to write pages of rebuttals for each point, so we felt we presented what was necessary.

"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 11:25:57 PM »
Also to note, we have read most of what has been written on TSN, youpuncturedtheark, gift4shias, and all of these other websites. The response was done by a team, but we are still adapting , improving and finalising the work. This is why we are presenting many of these rebuttals to you on your forum. We want to see how you deal with them before we really begin to strengthen its defences.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 11:29:15 PM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

I was wondering the same thing Farid. Maybe because they are too strong to be dealt with. :) Censorship? Yet, the OP is concerned about censorship on this forum even though Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful.

Some points are even skipped and replies to some points are not even relevant. Anyways, it is a nice attempt by the Shia although a weak one.

Brother in Islam, there is no doubt TSN does produce some good articles, which can be refuted, but demonstrate academic rigour and ask pertinent questions. I will be honest and give credit when it is due. This article was not one of them, and i was surprised it was published. I immediately noticed several errors of fact [in three or four points] as well as a number of other which could be addressed.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

iceman

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2017, 03:32:38 AM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

I was wondering the same thing Farid. Maybe because they are too strong to be dealt with. :) Censorship? Yet, the OP is concerned about censorship on this forum even though Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful.

Some points are even skipped and replies to some points are not even relevant. Anyways, it is a nice attempt by the Shia although a weak one.

"Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful? This must be some kind of joke. It has to be. What freedom? And how respectful are the others including yourself?

Hadrami

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2017, 03:55:31 AM »
Why are the quotes from TSN paraphrased instead of providing the actual text?

I was wondering the same thing Farid. Maybe because they are too strong to be dealt with. :) Censorship? Yet, the OP is concerned about censorship on this forum even though Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful.

Some points are even skipped and replies to some points are not even relevant. Anyways, it is a nice attempt by the Shia although a weak one.
When its
- paraphrased
- some points skipped
- some answers unrelevant
- no commet section
- the link of TSN article is not even provided so the reader can compare

It shows just too much cencorship done by that website. Why afraid of putting a simple link of article they try to refute? TSN always put link to artucle on shia website they are refuting so people can read both sides of arguments.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 03:58:24 AM by Hadrami »

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 02:33:28 PM »

I was wondering the same thing Farid. Maybe because they are too strong to be dealt with. :) Censorship? Yet, the OP is concerned about censorship on this forum even though Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful.

Some points are even skipped and replies to some points are not even relevant. Anyways, it is a nice attempt by the Shia although a weak one.
When its
- paraphrased
- some points skipped
- some answers unrelevant
- no commet section
- the link of TSN article is not even provided so the reader can compare

It shows just too much cencorship done by that website. Why afraid of putting a simple link of article they try to refute? TSN always put link to artucle on shia website they are refuting so people can read both sides of arguments.
[/quote]

1. The article written is of little academic rigour. Most of the points made are just semantics. We actually decided to phrase the points in a stronger way which reflected some of the other better articles written on TSN.

2. The article is actually a special draft, for TSN, and we are working to strengthen it further, though we believe it comfortably refutes the twelve reasons as they have been presented. No-one denies each point can itself require a debate that can span volumes of books. Some even an entire library.

3. Nothing was skipped, but the points made were repetitive - maybe as a way to try to stretch them out. When we addressed something before, we felt no need to do so again. Furthermore, how do we address a statement claiming 'we follow the true teachings of the Ahlulbayt' in one post ? You need to debate the whole of Sunni and Shia Islam to do that, and it is why we are debating just about everything else. I could reply and well 'Shia's follow the closet teachings' and leave it without evidence and make another point. However we effectively decided to show the contrast between the alleged Tawheed of the Ahlulbayt as per Bukhari, and the mutawattir hadith on Tawheed [generally speaking] in our own books from the Ahlulbayt.

4. If you are able to observe the sheer amount of abuse Shia's receive you will know why we left no comments - for now. On TSN you can find a user calling me a Kuffar and declaring me a Kaffir - i think it was optimusprime. Nothing happened. On other boards and networks, we and our team get declared Kaffir, Najis, unclean , and many of us have faced severe abuse in real life as well. We will have a forum when the time is right for people to be able to put across their views, unchallenged, and we will address them. The very fact we have presented the work to you on here , and stated to defend every single point means we have nothing to hide from. We will also review the comments once we get a grip around how best to deal with trolls.

5. I'm afraid we are not going to be linking TSN. It has a name which deceives people into thinking it may represent our Madhab. Furthermore, most of the articles are designed to abuse, refute, and distort our position. We are not going to give it free back-links help it on the search engines any time soon. While we respect Farid, we do not respect what he and his team are doing here. If we make a forum, you are welcome to post as many links as you would like on it however.

6. When we will refute a proper article - and TSN has better ones than the weak one we have refuted- we will not need to paraphrase but will quote the words.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

whoaretheshia

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2017, 02:34:51 PM »
"Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful? This must be some kind of joke. It has to be. What freedom? And how respectful are the others including yourself?

While Farid and Hani and a few of the others show respect generally, there are users on here who have called me a Kuffar among other things, and nothing really happens. On SC, i would have pushed to ban any user calling a Sunni a Kuffar, temporarily at least.
"I leave behind for you two weighty things, which if you hold onto, you will never go astray...the Quran and my Ahlulbayt" - Musnad Ibn Rawayh (al-Albani classes Isnaad *independently* as Hasan, and Matn as authentic, as does Al-Arnaut, Ibn Hajar and others.

Mythbuster1

Re: A response to "Twelve reasons to leave Shiasm"
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2017, 03:39:27 PM »
"Shias have full freedom here as long as they are respectful? This must be some kind of joke. It has to be. What freedom? And how respectful are the others including yourself?

While Farid and Hani and a few of the others show respect generally, there are users on here who have called me a Kuffar among other things, and nothing really happens. On SC, i would have pushed to ban any user calling a Sunni a Kuffar, temporarily at least.


Lol sc? They call muawiya ra and the wives of prophet saw A LOT WORSE, and they don't even get a ticking off unless it's another member who tells them off.

So stop crying crocodile tears.

It's not personal, just get on with it and don't be comparing a deviant anti Islamic website that insults OPENELY as better in listening to complaints......which they don't, unless you're a Shiite.

if some Muslim calls you a kafir then unless he can prove it, it falls back on them.......unless you really think he might be right.

That is standard stuff bro.

Be intelligent like bros Farid and hani and don't rise to such people. Pretty easy stuff unless you're searching for sympathy.

 

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