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If this isn't shirk, what is?

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bla blu

If this isn't shirk, what is?
« on: August 17, 2019, 10:53:33 AM »
Assalamu alaikum,

Time and time again I see shias use this argument (speakers corner, shiachat etc.): "Don't you ask your mom to help you do this or that? Or, ask her to make dua for you? Or, ask your buddy to help you do the homework, Or, ask help from the doctor? Are you saying these are all shirk? Of course, not. Then, why do you say asking help from imams is shirk? They are all done by the permission of Allah, just like your buddy helping you out or the doctor helping you is by the permission of Allah."

This is such a frustratingly fallacious argument, where does one even begin to address it? I'm pretty sure even a caveman knows the difference between asking his wife to make him food and calling on a supernatural entity around a shrine to ask it to give him healthy children, longer life and success and what not! The former is part of the acknowledged ordinary life and course of action and the latter is tapping into the supernatural/unseen for an out-of-the-ordinary achievement or goal in an apparent act of religious devotion. How do you even dare to compare?

It's caveman level common sense, but let's still quote some basic anthropology of religion. There are some KEY elements (what makes things shirk):

1. The entity you ask help from is in the supernatural realm. It's a supernatural being. Supernaturality is the hallmark of any worship or deification. It does not necessarily have to be a creator deity. It could be a lesser deity who is sub-ordinate to a supreme creator (God), or even a supernatural created being, such as a spirit, or ummmm, the spiritual entity of a dead imam. Are my mom or buddy out-of-the-ordinary supernatural entities? Am I tapping into the supernatural? I do not think so.

2. The entity has powers greater than those of ordinary humans, such as the spirit of a dead imam having the ability to hear thousands if not millions of people and their cries and prayers all at once. Or, the ability to know anything if he wishes, or the ability to work as a supernatural means to direct people's prayers to Allah (God). Whether they have these powers independently of themselves or they are God-given does not change anything, whether they are able to do it by their own or are subject to the will of the supreme God does not change anything. The fact that they have these supernatural powers and people reach out to their places of rituals, and shrines and call upon them in prayers with direct words and address of language make them "de facto" deities or such forms of forces .

3. Obviously, the type of help this entity is asked to do (whether actively or passively) isn't making you sandwich, or passing you the glass of water. It is the type of help which is beyond the scopes of ordinary humans and requires supernatural intervention in a religious context. Asking to help get healthy children, longer life, wealth, do better in business, success in relationship yadi yadi yada, or asking [insert anything the shias go to imam shrines and ask].

So, what about asking my mom to make dua for me? I know my mom is not some supernatural/unseen entity with the supernatural/unseen wasila ability to hear me from anywhere and then channel my duas to Allah with the promise of greater chance of acceptability. I did not build shrines around my mother, tell people that my mother has extra-ordinary powers and abilities to help them, and make it a ritualistic practice for millions of people to come kiss, bow down, and do what not in apparent religious gestures around her shrine. I know that she is just a human being who will practice ordinary course of action, e.g., stretch her hands in salah like a human and utter with very human mouth and tongue and plead to Allah about me, perhaps Allah will accept me for her sake. It's so silly to even try to compare them.

Speaking of my mom, let's quote a real life example. In what situation, then, would me asking my mom be shirk? Have you heard of ancestral spirit worshiping? There were/are cultures that actually asked help from their dead ancestors spirits in their shrines in apparent acts of deification.

Quote
In China, ancestral spirits are often thought of as still being active family members.  They are treated warmly with respect and honor.  Traditional Chinese families in rural villages often set a place at feast tables for their ancestors as if they were still living.  If treated well, the ancestral spirits may help their living descendants have bigger crops, do better in business, or achieve other desirable goals because they are still interested in the well being of the family.

https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/religion/rel_2.htm

Did they necessarily believe that the spirits of their deceased ancestors were gods? Nope. They just believed they were souls or ghosts of their ancestors, but asked them for help from them, made their shrines, did rituals - obvious shirk. But, tomorrow if they embraced Islam, but continued to do what they do and argued like shias: "well, our ancestors' spirits are created by Allah, they can not do anything without the will of Allah. They are just a wasila to reach out to Allah. Allah has given them the ability to help us, so its totally legit to call on their spirits to help us, make shrines and do all those things. It's not shirk." Will you accept their practice and be like: "sure, we do this with our imams too, carry on"? Looks like you don't have a choice but to say exactly that lol.

Here is more from anthropology. Lots of ancient Turkic shamans actually believed in One supreme Creator God (tengri), and spirits were just created beings who they called on for extra-ordinary help, and when they first converted to Islam, some even called the One supreme God "Allah" while not leaving the practice of shamanism and tapping into supernatural spirit entities and asked for help in apparent acts of worship. So, it's not shirk? Would you rather tell them: "go on being shaman doing all the shaman things. It's totally not shirk as long as you believe that the spirits are given the ability by Allah to help people, give them good children, good life and what not. If you believe the spirits don't do that by themselves, just go ahead and make all shaman ritual places, tell all people to go do their prayers there. Just as long as you believe that it's done by the permission of Allah, shamanism is all fine and dandy and totally not shirk"


https://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2016/05/27/shamanism-a-practice-of-early-turkic-beliefs

Even the pagans of arab argued with Allah saying they believed in one God (Allah), and the other entities are just means to seek nearness to Allah.

The below is not shirk?

Du‘a’ al-Faraj, a popular shia dua. It starts with asking help from Allah at first, then quickly devolves into directly asking from imams:

"...O Muhammad! O ‘Ali! O ‘Ali! O Muhammad! Suffice me both of you as both of you are sufficient. Help me—two of you—for you are my helpers. O our Master, O Master of the Time! Help me! Help me! Rescue me! Rescue me! Rescue me!...."

https://www.al-islam.org/an-overview-of-mahdi-s-government-najimuddin-tabasi/dua-al-faraj-ilahi-azuma-l-balau

There are also things like Naad e ali which millions of shias recite as prayer which is even more disturbing to read.
https://www.duas.org/Misc/nade_ali_kabeer.htm

And, then there is Namaz e Fatima, where one literally goes in sujood and recites "O my mistress! O Fatima! Help me!".

The maker of this documentary is asking the same common sense driven question: "how on earth did this shrine worship even develop with Islam and Quran?", although he himself isn't a muslim.
https://youtu.be/_t6bzcJIc2A

In what world are these shia practices not shirk? What happened to your common sense? Oh yeah, "but, but ,but, you ask your mom too! to make you sandwich!!" - Facepalm.

When the average jill or joe shia goes to imam shrines, what goes on live in his mind at that time is not the apologetic: "oh, imam is going to transfer this  supplication or that to Allah, or oh, imam is not going to be able to do that without the will and permission of Allah". Obviously, at the front of his mind, all he thinks about is that he has got some life problems and needs supernatural intervention and whats better than going to imams? Hence why he uses direct address of language towards supernatural imam shrines for all that he needs, and cries for, and supplicates. Only when someone asks is when he tries to justify it with the "oh, its by Allah's permission" apology. But, if you ask, even a hindu or a shaman will try to justify.

Humans do worship, rituals and all forms of contact with the supernatural because at the end of the day they also WANT things, whether it be things in this life or the one after. Supplication is part and parcel of worship. And, ALL FORMS of supplication and worship are for Allah alone. Depriving Allah of this basic right by involving/associating other supernatural entities (whether they be false or existing; created, sub-ordinate entities, or otherwise) will come at a cost. Didn't Allah say He does not forgive shirk? Ponder over that guys (shias).
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 12:03:45 PM by bla blu »

Shia not Rafidi

Re: If this isn't shirk, what is?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 02:46:47 PM »
Quote
my mom is not some supernatural/unseen entity with the supernatural/unseen wasila ability to hear me from anywhere and then channel my duas to Allah with the promise of greater chance of acceptability
That was funny  :P
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

Shia not Rafidi

Re: If this isn't shirk, what is?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2019, 02:57:43 PM »
Worth reading..
And the conclusion is :
you can actually call upon them like "O god Ali, help me" as long as you believe that he is a god by the permission of Allah (even if you don't really know where the hell did this belief emerge from)
#__Shia of Ali__#
#__Sunni of Prophet Muhammad__#

bla blu

Re: If this isn't shirk, what is?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2019, 08:09:12 PM »
Also, intercession on the day of judgment is a completely different scenario. The ordinary world will come to an end. There is no what we perceive in this world as supernatural at that time. What is supernatural will be laid bare before our eyes. There is no testing us anymore. False gods are before our eyes, exposed. It's done, and now its time for judgment. If Allah chooses from amongst his servants certain ones and allows them to intercede on behalf of others at that time, it's a completely different context.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: If this isn't shirk, what is?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 12:11:53 PM »
Indeed a good read. And the brother presented his argument in a simple and easy to understand manner l.

Ebn Hussein

Re: If this isn't shirk, what is?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2019, 05:53:17 AM »
Bless you, I also seen you commenting under my videos. All I can say: Allhaumma barik at brother Bla Blu.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

 

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