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Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?

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abu_muhammad

I'm curious if ahl-sunna wal jama' consider the Prophet (sawas) to be ma'soom. And if so, what is the nature of his ismah? And was he ma'soom prior to receiving revelation?
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2019, 01:24:15 AM »
I'm curious if ahl-sunna wal jama' consider the Prophet (sawas) to be ma'soom. And if so, what is the nature of his ismah? And was he ma'soom prior to receiving revelation?
We consider Muhammad(SAWS) as Masoom. It such that he never made a mistake in delivering the message or teachings of Islam. And as in person, Prophet(S) never committed a sin, but yes he did make mistakes, and these can be proven from Quran, and both Sahih Shia and Sunni ahadeeth.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2019, 12:21:02 PM »
Thank you for the insight bro.

Can you provide evidences from Quran or authentic Sunnah that the Prophet (sawas) made mistakes?

 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:26:12 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2019, 01:58:41 PM »
Thank you for the insight bro.

Can you provide evidences from Quran or authentic Sunnah that the Prophet (sawas) made mistakes?
Here is one :

Prophet, in seeking the pleasure of your wives, why do you make unlawful that which God has made lawful. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful. (Quran 66:1).

The bold part was Prophet’s(s) mistake.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2019, 06:43:26 PM »
And what was this (supposed) mistake exactly? Do you have the tafsir? Also, are there any other examples in authentic sunni and shia hadith as you claim?

« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 06:53:37 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2019, 08:58:15 PM »
And what was this (supposed) mistake exactly? Do you have the tafsir? Also, are there any other examples in authentic sunni and shia hadith as you claim?

Making something unlawful upon himself which was made lawful by Allah, was it a correct thing?

As for ahadeeth then take example of Sahu of Prophet(saws) in prayer, which is mentioned in both Sunni and Shia ahadeeth.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2019, 09:34:30 PM »
Making something unlawful upon himself which was made lawful by Allah, was it a correct thing?

As for ahadeeth then take example of Sahu of Prophet(saws) in prayer, which is mentioned in both Sunni and Shia ahadeeth.

Just reading the verse, it appears Allah (swt) is encouraging the Prophet (sawas) to do something, saying he hasn't prohibited it. A mistake would be the opposite of this, i.e. doing something which he has prohibited.

Please enlighten me with the tafsir or sabab nuzul for 66:1 so I may better understand the context.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 09:40:21 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2019, 09:57:13 PM »
Just reading the verse, it appears Allah (swt) is encouraging the Prophet (sawas) to do something, saying he hasn't prohibited it. A mistake would be the opposite of this, i.e. doing something which he has prohibited.

Please enlighten me with the tafsir or sabab nuzul for 66:1 so I may better understand the context.
do you reject Sahu of Prophet(s) in prayer ? If no and you accept it, then that is what mistake is. If yes, then you are a ghullat, as per Sadooq, while authentic Shia and Sunni reports prove it.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2019, 10:08:25 PM »
do you reject Sahu of Prophet(s) in prayer ? If no and you accept it, then that is what mistake is. If yes, then you are a ghullat, as per Sadooq, while authentic Shia and Sunni reports prove it.

Excuse my ignorance but I am not aware of any such authentic reports. Especially from Sunni books because the question is regarding the Sunni concept of 'isma for the Prophet (sawas)

Also, I have now requested multiple times for contextualising the Surah Tahrim which you tried to tell me was proof that the Prophet (sawas) made mistakes. So if you know the context of revelation for first few verses, please enlighten me.
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2019, 10:24:02 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but I am not aware of any such authentic reports. Especially from Sunni books because the question is regarding the Sunni concept of 'isma for the Prophet (sawas)
Ibrahim b. Suwaid-reported:
'Alqama led us in the noon prayer and be offered five rak'ahs; when the prayer was complete, the people said to him: Abu Shibl, you have offered five rak'ahs. He said: No, I have not done that. They said: Yes (you said five rak'ahs). He (the narrator) said: And I was sitting in a corner among people and I was just a boy. I (also) said: Yes, you have offered five (rak'ahs). He said to me: O, one-eyed, do you say the same thing? I said: Yes. Upon this he turned (his face) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations, and then reported 'Abdullah as saying: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) led us in prayer and offered five rak'ahs. And as he turned away the people began to whisper amongst themselves. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What is the matter with you? They said: Has the prayer been extended? He said: No. They said: You have in fact said five rak'ahs. He (the Holy Prophet) then turned his back (and faced the Qibla) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations and further said: Verily I am a human being like you, I forget just as you forget. Ibn Numair made this addition:" When any one of you forgets, he must perform two prostrations."[Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith 1177]

Also, I have now requested multiple times for contextualising the Surah Tahrim which you tried to tell me was proof that the Prophet (sawas) made mistakes. So if you know the context of revelation for first few verses, please enlighten me.
[/quote]
I consider the decision of Prophet(saws) for which he was corrected by Allah as a mistake. If you as a Shia doesn't then, its your choice. Let's agree to disagree.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2019, 05:23:42 AM »
Ibrahim b. Suwaid-reported:
'Alqama led us in the noon prayer and be offered five rak'ahs; when the prayer was complete, the people said to him: Abu Shibl, you have offered five rak'ahs. He said: No, I have not done that. They said: Yes (you said five rak'ahs). He (the narrator) said: And I was sitting in a corner among people and I was just a boy. I (also) said: Yes, you have offered five (rak'ahs). He said to me: O, one-eyed, do you say the same thing? I said: Yes. Upon this he turned (his face) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations, and then reported 'Abdullah as saying: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) led us in prayer and offered five rak'ahs. And as he turned away the people began to whisper amongst themselves. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What is the matter with you? They said: Has the prayer been extended? He said: No. They said: You have in fact said five rak'ahs. He (the Holy Prophet) then turned his back (and faced the Qibla) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations and further said: Verily I am a human being like you, I forget just as you forget. Ibn Numair made this addition:" When any one of you forgets, he must perform two prostrations."[Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith 1177]

Also, I have now requested multiple times for contextualising the Surah Tahrim which you tried to tell me was proof that the Prophet (sawas) made mistakes. So if you know the context of revelation for first few verses, please enlighten me.

I consider the decision of Prophet(saws) for which he was corrected by Allah as a mistake. If you as a Shia doesn't then, its your choice. Let's agree to disagree.

Please consider me neither sunni nor shia but a servant of Allah (swt), seeking the truth.

Thanks for providing the hadith. Could you also provide me a sahih hadith describing the context of 66:1?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 05:30:35 AM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

iceman

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2019, 12:42:39 PM »
And what was this (supposed) mistake exactly? Do you have the tafsir? Also, are there any other examples in authentic sunni and shia hadith as you claim?

It wasn't a mistake. He's just confused about it. Some men just refrain from doing certain things just to keep their wives happy or just to avoid an argument from taking place. Just to keep the peace that is. Because some wives are annoying. The Prophet s.a.w was doing the same thing. And this is where Allah intervened by saying that you don't need to make unlawful upon yourself what Allah has made lawful just to please your wives.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2019, 02:12:51 PM »
It wasn't a mistake. He's just confused about it. Some men just refrain from doing certain things just to keep their wives happy or just to avoid an argument from taking place. Just to keep the peace that is. Because some wives are annoying. The Prophet s.a.w was doing the same thing. And this is where Allah intervened by saying that you don't need to make unlawful upon yourself what Allah has made lawful just to please your wives.

But what actually happened? Anyone have authentic hadith about the incident? Noor-us-Sunnah has been dodging this question.

If someone claims that the Quran says the Prophet (sawas) is at fault, at least they owe this claim some context. So if anyone can explain Surat Tahrim in the light of authentic ahadith, that would help explore this subject greatly.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 02:18:11 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2019, 02:41:32 PM »
But what actually happened? Anyone have authentic hadith about the incident? Noor-us-Sunnah has been dodging this question.

If someone claims that the Quran says the Prophet (sawas) is at fault, at least they owe this claim some context. So if anyone can explain Surat Tahrim in the light of authentic ahadith, that would help explore this subject greatly.

Narrated `Aisha:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay (for a period) in the house of Zainab bint Jahsh (one of the wives of the Prophet ) and he used to drink honey in her house. Hafsa and I decided that when the Prophet (ﷺ) entered upon either of us, she would say, "I smell in you the bad smell of Maghafir (a bad smelling raisin). Have you eaten Maghafir?" When he entered upon one of us, she said that to him. He replied (to her), "No, but I have drunk honey in the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, and I will never drink it again." Then the following verse was revealed: 'O Prophet ! Why do you ban (for you) that which Allah has made lawful for you?. ..(up to) If you two (wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) turn in repentance to Allah.' (66.1-4) The two were `Aisha and Hafsa And also the Statement of Allah: 'And (Remember) when the Prophet (ﷺ) disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives!' (66.3) i.e., his saying, "But I have drunk honey." Hisham said: It also meant his saying, "I will not drink anymore, and I have taken an oath, so do not inform anybody of that."[Sahih al-Bukhari 6691]

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2019, 11:25:47 AM »

Narrated `Aisha:
The Prophet (ﷺ) used to stay (for a period) in the house of Zainab bint Jahsh (one of the wives of the Prophet ) and he used to drink honey in her house. Hafsa and I decided that when the Prophet (ﷺ) entered upon either of us, she would say, "I smell in you the bad smell of Maghafir (a bad smelling raisin). Have you eaten Maghafir?" When he entered upon one of us, she said that to him. He replied (to her), "No, but I have drunk honey in the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, and I will never drink it again." Then the following verse was revealed: 'O Prophet ! Why do you ban (for you) that which Allah has made lawful for you?. ..(up to) If you two (wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) turn in repentance to Allah.' (66.1-4) The two were `Aisha and Hafsa And also the Statement of Allah: 'And (Remember) when the Prophet (ﷺ) disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives!' (66.3) i.e., his saying, "But I have drunk honey." Hisham said: It also meant his saying, "I will not drink anymore, and I have taken an oath, so do not inform anybody of that."[Sahih al-Bukhari 6691]

Thanks.

When I look at the verse 66:1 and the context behind it as you've described, in the light of:
"And indeed, you are of a great moral character (khuluqin 'atheem)." (68:4)

It becomes apparent that Allah (swt) is questioning him as to why he must allow people to take advantage of his morality and manners.

Quote
Ibrahim b. Suwaid-reported:
'Alqama led us in the noon prayer and be offered five rak'ahs; when the prayer was complete, the people said to him: Abu Shibl, you have offered five rak'ahs. He said: No, I have not done that. They said: Yes (you said five rak'ahs). He (the narrator) said: And I was sitting in a corner among people and I was just a boy. I (also) said: Yes, you have offered five (rak'ahs). He said to me: O, one-eyed, do you say the same thing? I said: Yes. Upon this he turned (his face) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations, and then reported 'Abdullah as saying: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) led us in prayer and offered five rak'ahs. And as he turned away the people began to whisper amongst themselves. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What is the matter with you? They said: Has the prayer been extended? He said: No. They said: You have in fact said five rak'ahs. He (the Holy Prophet) then turned his back (and faced the Qibla) and performed two prostrations and then gave salutations and further said: Verily I am a human being like you, I forget just as you forget. Ibn Numair made this addition:" When any one of you forgets, he must perform two prostrations."[Sahih Muslim Book 4, Hadith 1177]

"We shall teach you and you will not forget, Except what Allah should will." (87:6-7)

Tells us that his memory his memory is protected by Allah (swt) but Allah (swt) sometimes wishes for him to forget so that we can learn what to do when we forget. The Prophet (sawas) in this narration is also empathising with his companions by re-asserting his humanity, as an expression of his great morals (khuluqin 'atheem) as revealed in 68:4.

Now why is all this necessary? Because, as the scholars of fiqh in all schools of Islam will tell you that not only the Prophet's (sawas) words and actions are proof (hujjah) but also his silence on a matter is proof. So, how can the perfect religion of the perfect God be based on an imperfect proof?

Has it not been revealed that "Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred" (53:2)?

So the belief that Allah (swt), his book and his proof are free from error is not ghulu but a rational necessity, proven from the Quran.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 11:29:25 AM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2019, 11:59:29 AM »
Thanks.

When I look at the verse 66:1 and the context behind it as you've described, in the light of:
"And indeed, you are of a great moral character (khuluqin 'atheem)." (68:4)

It becomes apparent that Allah (swt) is questioning him as to why he must allow people to take advantage of his morality and manners.
It doesn't negate the fact that the decision he made was a mistake, Hence he was corrected by Allah(swt).


"We shall teach you and you will not forget, Except what Allah should will." (87:6-7)
It's talking about Shariah. Not his personal Ibadah.

Tells us that his memory his memory is protected by Allah (swt) but Allah (swt) sometimes wishes for him to forget so that we can learn what to do when we forget. The Prophet (sawas) in this narration is also empathising with his companions by re-asserting his humanity, as an expression of his great morals (khuluqin 'atheem) as revealed in 68:4.
Allah wants to give us a message that only Allah(swt) is free of all mistakes. And even though Prophet(saws) did make mistake yet that doesn't effect his status in any way or form.

Shia Scholar Sayyid Ni’mat Allah al-Jaza’iri sated: We don’t deny that Prophets(AS) can fall asleep during prayer times until the time passes, then pray Qadha after that, and this is not a defect. [Anwar al-Nu’maniyyah, vol 4, page 28].

Now why is all this necessary? Because, as the scholars of fiqh in all schools of Islam will tell you that not only the Prophet's (sawas) words and actions are proof (hujjah) but also his silence on a matter is proof. So, how can the perfect religion of the perfect God be based on an imperfect proof?

Has it not been revealed that "Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred" (53:2)?
This doesn't effect the religion and Shariah in any way or form, as told in th beginning. The Shariah and Religion are perfect. Prophet(saws) delivered it perfectly, and it doesn't go against that fact that Muhammad(saws) could make mistakes in his personal issues.

Classical Shia scholar Sheikh Saduq said:

إن الغلاة والمفوضة لعنهم الله ينكرون سهو النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ويقولون: لو جاز أن يسهو عليه السلام في الصلاة لجاز أن يسهو في التبليغ

“Al-Ghulat and al-mufaqida May Allah Curse Them, reject possibility of forgetfulness(Sahw) from Nabi(saw), they say: If error in prayer is possible, then error in tabligh is also possible. [Man la yahduruhul faqeeh, page 359].

So the belief that Allah (swt), his book and his proof are free from error is not ghulu but a rational necessity, proven from the Quran.
The belief that Prophet(saws) made mistake in his personal life is against Quran and authentic reports. Hence, rejecting these is Ghulu.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »
It doesn't negate the fact that the decision he made was a mistake, Hence he was corrected by Allah(swt).

By that logic,

O you wrapped in garments! (Ya ayyuha almuzzammil) - [73:1]
Rise up (to pray during) the night, except a little, (Qumi allayla illa qaleela) [73:2]
half, or a little less, (Nisfahu awi onqus minhu qaleela) [73:3]

And everywhere else where the Prophet (sawas) was doing something then Allah (swt) asked him to do something else, becomes a mistake. And the whole Quran becomes a correction of his mistakes. Then, anything which a verse was not revealed for becomes unreliable. Therefore, Allah (swt) suggesting that he, out of his aqlaq, not prohibit himself from that which halal, is but a guidance for us; not a proof of the Prophet's (S) deficiency.

Quote
It's talking about Shariah. Not his personal Ibadah.
Allah wants to give us a message that only Allah(swt) is free of all mistakes. And even though Prophet(saws) did make mistake yet that doesn't effect his status in any way or form.

Is his personal life "seerah" not used as religious precedent? How can this be if it is imperfect? If his words, actions and silence are shari'a, then there's nothing left!

Quote
Shia Scholar Sayyid Ni’mat Allah al-Jaza’iri sated: We don’t deny that Prophets(AS) can fall asleep during prayer times until the time passes, then pray Qadha after that, and this is not a defect. [Anwar al-Nu’maniyyah, vol 4, page 28].

The belief of Shi'a scholars, if it goes against reason, is not a hujjah for me. Allah (swt) on the day of judgement is going to ask "Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?(47:24)" not if I did taqlid of some marja.

Quote
This doesn't effect the religion and Shariah in any way or form, as told in th beginning. The Shariah and Religion are perfect. Prophet(saws) delivered it perfectly, and it doesn't go against that fact that Muhammad(saws) could make mistakes in his personal issues.

Classical Shia scholar Sheikh Saduq said:

إن الغلاة والمفوضة لعنهم الله ينكرون سهو النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ويقولون: لو جاز أن يسهو عليه السلام في الصلاة لجاز أن يسهو في التبليغ

“Al-Ghulat and al-mufaqida May Allah Curse Them, reject possibility of forgetfulness(Sahw) from Nabi(saw), they say: If error in prayer is possible, then error in tabligh is also possible. [Man la yahduruhul faqeeh, page 359].
The belief that Prophet(saws) made mistake in his personal life is against Quran and authentic reports. Hence, rejecting these is Ghulu.

Again, if we believe that Allah's (swt) religion is perfect and the Prophet (S) delivered it perfectly, then this necessitates for him to be the perfect man or his seerah cannot be a religious precedent and bid'a becomes justifiable, as their might have a better way of leading one's life than to follow the Prophet's (S) example.

However the ghullat and sufi's claim that he was immune to forgetting thereby rejecting the highlighted part of "We shall teach you and you will not forget, Except what Allah should will." (87:6-7).

But claiming that he was deficient in other than that which Allah (swt) has willed for him to forget, so that we may learn from his example, while also believing that he is the perfect / model example, would be an oxymoron.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 02:20:11 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2019, 06:13:12 PM »
By that logic,

O you wrapped in garments! (Ya ayyuha almuzzammil) - [73:1]
Rise up (to pray during) the night, except a little, (Qumi allayla illa qaleela) [73:2]
half, or a little less, (Nisfahu awi onqus minhu qaleela) [73:3]

And everywhere else where the Prophet (sawas) was doing something then Allah (swt) asked him to do something else, becomes a mistake.
You are comparing apples with oranges. An example where Allah questions Prophet(saws) that why did he do such a thing and tell him not to do that, cannot be compared to the example where Allah ordered Prophet(s) do something. Because the former example shows Prophet(s) was reprimanded.


Is his personal life "seerah" not used as religious precedent? How can this be if it is imperfect? If his words, actions and silence are shari'a, then there's nothing left!
When Prophet’s(S) personal mistake is corrected his followers get the teaching from it that they shouldn’t do anything similar. And it’s such a matter that even Prophet(s) isn’t allowed to do it, let alone the followers.

The belief of Shi'a scholars, if it goes against reason, is not a hujjah for me. Allah (swt) on the day of judgement is going to ask "Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?(47:24)" not if I did taqlid of some marja.
That belief which Shia scholars endorsed is purely the Islamic belief, free of ghulu, anyone who reads Quran and hadeeth will agree with it. And your intellect hasn’t reason the level to judge what is right or wrong for up, when it’s proven from authentic sources.


Again, if we believe that Allah's (swt) religion is perfect and the Prophet (S) delivered it perfectly, then this necessitates for him to be the perfect man or his seerah cannot be a religious precedent and bid'a becomes justifiable, as their might have a better way of leading one's life than to follow the Prophet's (S) example.
You think that, we don’t, because we base our belief on that which was revealed not that which we believe is reasonable. A perfect man is also the one who when makes a mistake, acknowledges it and asks for forgiveness from Allah.

abu_muhammad

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2019, 11:37:50 PM »
You are comparing apples with oranges. An example where Allah questions Prophet(saws) that why did he do such a thing and tell him not to do that, cannot be compared to the example where Allah ordered Prophet(s) do something. Because the former example shows Prophet(s) was reprimanded.

To command or to reprimand is to instruct towards a position other than what the subject is upon. To call one correction of a fault OR to call it guidance by example, applies in both cases. Any discretion would be purely arbitrary.

Quote
When Prophet’s(S) personal mistake is corrected his followers get the teaching from it that they shouldn’t do anything similar. And it’s such a matter that even Prophet(s) isn’t allowed to do it, let alone the followers.
 That belief which Shia scholars endorsed is purely the Islamic belief, free of ghulu, anyone who reads Quran and hadeeth will agree with it. And your intellect hasn’t reason the level to judge what is right or wrong for up, when it’s proven from authentic sources.

Now we're getting somewhere. The purpose of an apparent "mistake" (if you choose to call it that) is so that his followers may learn by example, this implies that when there isn't a lesson that he explains to us from it, his conduct would have to be flawless. Because as long as there's a chance that he's wrong, his words, actions and his silence cannot be proof. For example if he says you pray 3 raka' for fajr, or you see him pray 3 raka' of you see him witness someone pray 3 raka' and not correct them, all three cases are valid proofs in sharia. Which would be impossible if his judgement was ever worthy of doubt.

Quote
You think that, we don’t, because we base our belief on that which was revealed not that which we believe is reasonable. A perfect man is also the one who when makes a mistake, acknowledges it and asks for forgiveness from Allah.

What is revealed is a guidance for those who apply their reason (our greatest gift) in it and contemplate its meaning, and benefit from the light of the Prophet's (S) words in that contemplation, that is the calling of the Quran:

A guide and a reminder to people of reason. [40:54]
Lo! therein verily is a reminder for him who hath a heart, or giveth ear with full intelligence. [50:37]
Do they not then think deeply in the Quran? ... [47:24]
Will they not then contemplate the Qur'an? ... [4:82]

I can keep going but, allow me to strengthen your case. Tell me what you think Allah (swt) means here in relation to the Prophet's ismah:

"That Allah may forgive for you what preceded of your sin and what will follow and complete His favor upon you and guide you to a straight path" (48:2)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 11:48:04 PM by abu_muhammad »
"As for those who strive hard in Us, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allah is with the Muhsineen" (29:69)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Is the Prophet Muhammad (sawas) ma'soom according to Sunni belief?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2019, 01:18:57 AM »
To command or to reprimand is to instruct towards a position other than what the subject is upon. To call one correction of a fault OR to call it guidance by example, applies in both cases. Any discretion would be purely arbitrary.
When its question that, why was the initial position chosen, and then referred the other, it means the former was incorrect. That's pure common sense.

 

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